Tyre shop over-tightening lug nuts

BlakeS94 · 12-04-2021 6:18pm #1

Got two tyres replaced today, I always loosen them off when I get home and torque them myself to 80 ft-lbs and then another 1/8 of a turn. Probably don't need the 1/8 but its just to make sure it's on or over 80ft-lbs by a little bit. Anyway,
Tried to remove the lug nuts today and they were welded on to the car! I don't have an impact so I had to resort to using my 24" long, 1/2" drive breaker bar and an impact socket because the force on the bar broke my regular socket. And at that I had to stand on the handle and I weigh over 100kg. Never seen lug nuts so tight. I'd have been stranded if I had to replace a tyre on the side of the road there was no way they were coming off with a tyre iron. Hopefully my brake discs aren't warped.

colm_mcm · 12-04-2021 6:33pm

Using the ugga-dugga gun on the lock nut does my head in too.

BlakeS94 · 12-04-2021 7:03pm

colm_mcm wrote: »

Using the ugga-dugga gun on the lock nut does my head in too.

I'd say their finger got stuck on the trigger, lug nuts should not be tighter than axle nuts

PsychoPete · 12-04-2021 7:10pm

Sounds like typical form of just running the nuts in with the gun a bit too much. Nip them up with the gun,torque them and customer shouldn't have a problem getting them back off

BlakeS94 · 12-04-2021 7:22pm

PsychoPete wrote: »

Sounds like typical form of just running the nuts in with the gun a bit too much. Nip them up with the gun,torque them and customer shouldn't have a problem getting them back off

Do any tyre shops actually torque the lug nuts? Or even use a torque stick on the impact

subpar · 12-04-2021 7:36pm

Put grease on the thread on the wheel studs.

Needles73 · 12-04-2021 7:38pm

subpar wrote: »

Put grease on the thread on the wheel studs.

Do not to this.

Four Phucs Ache · 12-04-2021 7:39pm

Hah, sitting here fuming, and seen this...less than 3 hours ago got 2 new tyres on my pride and joy, lad with nuts ready in the gun fired them into the waiting wheel sitting on the hub , yesterday I even wire brushed and cleaned the nuts before putting on the space saver after a nail.

He threw the first nut on at 3o'clock position and it pulled the wheel out , he proceeded to do the other 4, me being soft I exploded inside and turned around and heard the gun undoing all the nuts, off he goes and air sands the inside of the wheel. He knows I seen the mess.

On the floor 2 nuts completed rounded off to fook. I'm taking it off tomorrow and seeing is the disc thread damaged.

I'm too bloody nice though and said fook all.

BlakeS94 · 12-04-2021 7:54pm

Four Phucs Ache wrote: »

Hah, sitting here fuming, and seen this...less than 3 hours ago got 2 new tyres on my pride and joy, lad with nuts ready in the gun fired them into the waiting wheel sitting on the hub , yesterday I even wire brushed and cleaned the nuts before putting on the space saver after a nail.

He threw the first nut on at 3o'clock position and it pulled the wheel out , he proceeded to do the other 4, me being soft I exploded inside and turned around and heard the gun undoing all the nuts, off he goes and air sands the inside of the wheel. He knows I seen the mess.

On the floor 2 nuts completed rounded off to fook. I'm taking it off tomorrow and seeing is the disc thread damaged.

I'm too bloody nice though and said fook all.

I'm the same i stood there while he bottomed out the nut and then some, said nothing.

12-04-2021 7:58pm

My usual tyre fitter is the opposite, doesn't trust the gun always tightens by hand and always covers his arse by advising you check them again in a few days

newmember2 · 12-04-2021 8:01pm

BlakeS94 wrote: »

Four Phucs Ache wrote: »

Hah, sitting here fuming, and seen this...less than 3 hours ago got 2 new tyres on my pride and joy, lad with nuts ready in the gun fired them into the waiting wheel sitting on the hub , yesterday I even wire brushed and cleaned the nuts before putting on the space saver after a nail.

He threw the first nut on at 3o'clock position and it pulled the wheel out , he proceeded to do the other 4, me being soft I exploded inside and turned around and heard the gun undoing all the nuts, off he goes and air sands the inside of the wheel. He knows I seen the mess.

On the floor 2 nuts completed rounded off to fook. I'm taking it off tomorrow and seeing is the disc thread damaged.

I'm too bloody nice though and said fook all.

I'm the same i stood there while he bottomed out the nut and then some, said nothing.

Fair phucs for understanding any of that

filbert the fox · 12-04-2021 8:26pm

Needles73 wrote: »

Do not to this.

And why not? This is essential to preserve
1. the nuts themselves from rusting over and
2. your patience as you get soaked in the pissing rain and your foot slipping off the brace which is never adequate for the job - knowing that you should've put a bit of lube on those nuts....

Needles73 · 12-04-2021 8:52pm

filbert the fox wrote: »

And why not? This is essential to preserve
1. the nuts themselves from rusting over and
2. your patience as you get soaked in the pissing rain and your foot slipping off the brace which is never adequate for the job - knowing that you should've put a bit of lube on those nuts....

It’s not essential nor recommend. No lubricant should be applied. Rub them with a wire brush and torque correctly. If you lubricate then you may aswell forget about torque readings as they are meaningless.

zilog_jones · 13-04-2021 9:52am

Needles73 wrote: »

It’s not essential nor recommend. No lubricant should be applied. Rub them with a wire brush and torque correctly. If you lubricate then you may aswell forget about torque readings as they are meaningless.

I accidentally got copper grease on some studs and the nuts did not stay tight. Fortunately I checked soon afterwards. Won't be doing that again.

listermint · 13-04-2021 9:56am

Used copper grease on nuts for the past twenty years on all my car's or vans. Haven't lost loosened a nut or wheel. I'd estimate I've covered well over 300,000 km in that time.

Not anecdotal. Experience.

colm_mcm · 13-04-2021 10:10am

That’s all fine, but they’re designed to not be lubricated.

Mimon · 13-04-2021 10:14am

listermint wrote: »

Used copper grease on nuts for the past twenty years on all my car's or vans. Haven't lost loosened a nut or wheel. I'd estimate I've covered well over 300,000 km in that time.

Not anecdotal. Experience.

It's anecdotal because it is the experience of one person and you may have just been fortunate.

listermint · 13-04-2021 10:24am

colm_mcm wrote: »

That’s all fine, but they’re designed to not be lubricated.

No argument from me. None.

I'm just telling you how I maintain my vehicles. I know they are meant to be dry and torqued. But I've found more often than not that has led to issues removing and surface rust building on them. Just my experience blame Irish roads or whatever.

Note no one on the forum will stop me maintaining my vehicles my way. I disagree with fortunate per poster above. I look after all my own vehicles and don't rely on a garage to tell me something is done right. From experience they let you down.

Await the boards motors mafia to come along ....

colm_mcm · 13-04-2021 11:40am

I don’t think anybody is going to try and stop you maintaining your car the way you want to do it.
Somebody objecting to bad advice isn’t an attack on you.

khaldrogo · 13-04-2021 11:49am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My usual tyre fitter is the opposite, doesn't trust the gun always tightens by hand and always covers his arse by advising you check them again in a few days

It is on the bottom of every receipt given by any decent garage. 'Check after X KMs'

BlakeS94 · 13-04-2021 12:10pm

khaldrogo wrote: »

It is on the bottom of every receipt given by any decent garage. 'Check after X KMs'

I don't know if I'd be allowed check them again in a few days when I loosened, re-tightened and torqued them the other day all I heard the missus saying was jesus he's at it again. Wasn't saying that when she needed new discs and pads for NCT lol

pippip · 13-04-2021 12:13pm

listermint wrote: »

I look after all my own vehicles and don't rely on a garage to tell me something is done right. From experience they let you down.

But it's not a garage, it's the manufacturers spec. In my experience outside manufacturer's spec is more likely to let you down.

If someone came on and said I only torque my wheels to 60 instead of manufacturers 80 because it's easier to take off, they've never fallen off
or
Maybe I torque to 100 instead of 80 so they definitely stay on.

Would you agree with their methods?

13-04-2021 1:46pm

I might be alone in this but I would see absolutely no reason to torque wheel nuts, it's common sense how tight they should be.

Ive also never seen a garage not use an impact to put on wheel nuts and I don't agree with that either, I have an impact so can get them off but could see how it would be a nightmare on the M50 etc trying to change a wheel

Only wheel nuts I have ever torqued were on motorbikes

listermint · 13-04-2021 1:47pm

Zander Helpless Witch wrote: »

I might be alone in this but I would see absolutely no reason to torque wheel nuts, it's common sense how tight they should be.

Ive also never seen a garage not use an impact to put on wheel nuts and I don't agree with that either, I have an impact so can get them off but could see how it would be a nightmare on the M50 etc trying to change a wheel

Only wheel nuts I have ever torqued were on motorbikes

Bingo!

sundodger5 · 13-04-2021 1:53pm

Back in my tyre fitting days.procedure was look up torque setting for car.
Use appropriate torque stick with air gun.
Double check with torque wrench. As in zero the wrench hand it to another fella so they had to double check the torque on the chart and setup the wrench.
Never seen it done elsewhere since though.

TheW1zard · 13-04-2021 2:03pm

3 Settings:

1. Tight
2. Too tight
3. Who the fcuk tightened that?

Cee-Jay-Cee · 13-04-2021 2:07pm

This is what happens when untrained apes are employed by tyre places. They just drive it on with the air gun.

I’d go back and get the price of whatever you broke trying to get them off. Tell them a poor social media review will cost them more and to train their monkeys a bit better in future.

Galway_guy_33 · 13-04-2021 2:11pm

What infuriates me more so is Main Mercedes Dealership using a standard 17mm socket on the Mercedes flower/star head lug nuts, it ruins them so they cant be open with the star head socket afterward.

Wouldnt mind I had the proper socket in the boot but didnt think I needed to tell a main mercedes dealer to use mine.

https://www.micksgarage.com/d/sockets/products/3178831/wheel-nut-socket-mercedes-benz-17mm?loc=ie&gclid=Cj0KCQjwgtWDBhDZARIsADEKwgOrOSdgXrSb9AsbhMrFYNegSOQMV_20wk7CN-kpnm9m4gf2HkXhL2kaAnQPEALw_wcB

My next trip to Mercedes Athlone to pickup brake discs I'll be looking for a major discount on replacement lug nuts as they destroyed them.

Never had this issue when dealing with Mercedes of Portadown, typical crap service from Mercedes in Athlone.

I keep a torque wrench in the boot with the proper Mercedes socket with the two torque settings wrote on the packaging (initially tighten to 75nm then to 150nm) as per the Mercedes WIS. Its clearly documented in the owners manual too: https://forums.mbclub.co.uk/attachments/1111-jpg.105342/

Discussed this very topic with Mercedes Technician in MB Portadown and incorrect torqueing or lug nut torqueing sequence can lead to damage of diamond cut alloys, which will result in juddering during braking. At £1000 per alloy its a simple thing to do manually to avoid a bill like that

BlakeS94 · 13-04-2021 2:31pm

Galway_guy_33 wrote: »

What infuriates me more so is Main Mercedes Dealership using a standard 17mm socket on the Mercedes flower/star head lug nuts, it ruins them so they cant be open with the star head socket afterward.

Wouldnt mind I had the proper socket in the boot but didnt think I needed to tell a main mercedes dealer to use mine.

https://www.micksgarage.com/d/sockets/products/3178831/wheel-nut-socket-mercedes-benz-17mm?loc=ie&gclid=Cj0KCQjwgtWDBhDZARIsADEKwgOrOSdgXrSb9AsbhMrFYNegSOQMV_20wk7CN-kpnm9m4gf2HkXhL2kaAnQPEALw_wcB

My next trip to Mercedes Athlone to pickup brake discs I'll be looking for a major discount on replacement lug nuts as they destroyed them.

Never had this issue when dealing with Mercedes of Portadown, typical crap service from Mercedes in Athlone.

I keep a torque wrench in the boot with the proper Mercedes socket with the two torque settings wrote on the packaging (initially tighten to 75nm then to 150nm) as per the Mercedes WIS. Its clearly documented in the owners manual too: https://forums.mbclub.co.uk/attachments/1111-jpg.105342/

Discussed this very topic with Mercedes Technician in MB Portadown and incorrect torqueing or lug nut torqueing sequence can lead to damage of diamond cut alloys, which will result in juddering during braking. At £1000 per alloy its a simple thing to do manually to avoid a bill like that

What infuriates me is Mercedes creating a new shaped socket to reel in the cash from diy'ers and the likes. Just use a standard hex or torx.

sumo12 · 13-04-2021 2:32pm

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BlakeS94 wrote: »

Do any tyre shops actually torque the lug nuts? Or even use a torque stick on the impact

No. Doubt there is even one in the place. Righty-tighty every time with the air gun

BlakeS94 · 13-04-2021 2:38pm

sumo12 wrote: »

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No. Doubt there is even one in the place. Righty-tighty every time with the air gun

That sound when you hear the gun bottoming out the nut and then the sound of the hammer hitting the anvil again wakes me up in a cold sweat at 4am. To top it all over they double checked with a breaker bar after, don't see the logic but your man couldn't get it to budge, full pressure with an air powered impact wrench, then finish off with a breaker bar? There's so much wrong

sumo12 · 13-04-2021 2:40pm

BlakeS94 wrote: »

That sound when you hear the gun bottoming out the nut and then the sound of the hammer hitting the anvil again wakes me up in a cold sweat at 4am. To top it all over they double checked with a breaker bar after, don't see the logic but your man couldn't get it to budge, full pressure with an air powered impact wrench, then finish off with a breaker bar? There's so much wrong

Oh yeah! The 36inch power bar and give the nut a bit of blue-vein torque on top as well

Galway_guy_33 · 13-04-2021 3:14pm

BlakeS94 wrote: »

What infuriates me is Mercedes creating a new shaped socket to reel in the cash from diy'ers and the likes. Just use a standard hex or torx.

I agree but then again spending over 80k on a car and then buying a 14 euro socket if you want to do some DIY yourself is not too bad.

But you would expect a trained MB technician to use the proper socket especially when they charge 60 euro to balance two front wheels, wont be going there again.

BlakeS94 · 13-04-2021 3:41pm

Galway_guy_33 wrote: »

I agree but then again spending over 80k on a car and then buying a 14 euro socket if you want to do some DIY yourself is not too bad.

But you would expect a trained MB technician to use the proper socket especially when they charge 60 euro to balance two front wheels, wont be going there again.

Fair point, I don't think I'll ever (be able to afford) drive an 80k Mercedes.

zilog_jones · 13-04-2021 5:20pm

BlakeS94 wrote: »

I don't know if I'd be allowed check them again in a few days when I loosened, re-tightened and torqued them the other day all I heard the missus saying was jesus he's at it again. Wasn't saying that when she needed new discs and pads for NCT lol

It kind of defeats the purpose of "checking" the torque if you're loosening the nuts again...

frozenfrozen · 13-04-2021 5:55pm

I had to replace my locking nuts because the last place uggadugged them on too tight. Very annoying

E36Ross · 13-04-2021 6:10pm

BlakeS94 wrote: »

That sound when you hear the gun bottoming out the nut and then the sound of the hammer hitting the anvil again wakes me up in a cold sweat at 4am. To top it all over they double checked with a breaker bar after, don't see the logic but your man couldn't get it to budge, full pressure with an air powered impact wrench, then finish off with a breaker bar? There's so much wrong

That's exactly how I tighten my wheels...... A decent air gun will have a torque switch on the side exactly for these situations.

Hand tighten so it's on the correct thread, send it with the gun on low setting and a quick nip up after with a breaker bar.

BlakeS94 · 13-04-2021 9:59pm

zilog_jones wrote: »

It kind of defeats the purpose of "checking" the torque if you're loosening the nuts again...

I'm not loosening them again? I originally loosened them when I got back from the tyre shop, read the OP.

BlakeS94 · 13-04-2021 10:01pm

E36Ross wrote: »

That's exactly how I tighten my wheels...... A decent air gun will have a torque switch on the side exactly for these situations.

Hand tighten so it's on the correct thread, send it with the gun on low setting and a quick nip up after with a breaker bar.

This was run them on with the air gun and then what sounded like full power all the way to the end of the studs and then another bit

CoBo55 · 13-04-2021 10:34pm

Lug nuts, tyre iron?? Jeez it’s like a Bruce Springsteen song here.

Wishbone Ash · 14-04-2021 9:55am

BlakeS94 wrote: »

I'd say their finger got stuck on the trigger, lug nuts should not be tighter than axle nuts

The gun is set at a particular torque - continuing to hold the trigger won't make it any tighter once it reaches that setting.

BlakeS94 · 14-04-2021 10:06am

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

The gun is set at a particular torque - continuing to hold the trigger won't make it any tighter once it reaches that setting.

Do you mean max torque? Because that's what it must have been

Mango Joe · 14-04-2021 10:47am

I was in a tyre place one time a few years back and one of the fellas there just came across as a bit of a prick..... So anyway we had very minor words over him over tightening a lug nut but of course it wasn't his fault etc. I just remember saying "it wouldn't be because you over torqued it so?" which was obviously enough to wound his professional pride fatally.

Long story short, the next time my mechanic got the car a month later to change brake pads he said that every lug nut on that car was almost impossible to remove and delayed him for hours trying to get them off the car.

BlakeS94 · 19-04-2021 7:42am

Good thing I loosened and re-torqued the lug nuts, just had a nasty blowout and there was no way I was getting the nuts off with just the supplied tyre iron in the boot if I hadn't loosened them off myself

mayota · 19-04-2021 8:32am

BlakeS94 wrote: »

Good thing I loosened and re-torqued the lug nuts, just had a nasty blowout and there was no way I was getting the nuts off with just the supplied tyre iron in the boot if I hadn't loosened them off myself

Did you drive over a sharp object maybe ? Scary stuff on new tyres.

blade1 · 19-04-2021 8:45am

pippip wrote: »

But it's not a garage, it's the manufacturers spec. In my experience outside manufacturer's spec is more likely to let you down.

If someone came on and said I only torque my wheels to 60 instead of manufacturers 80 because it's easier to take off, they've never fallen off
or
Maybe I torque to 100 instead of 80 so they definitely stay on.

Would you agree with their methods?

I would't rely on manufacturers spec too easily myself from my own experience.
I've seen plenty of false information in manuals.

greasepalm · 19-04-2021 9:01am

Worked in garage over 30years and before putting lug nuts on by hand i would use a quick spray of wd40 just to clean the threads and impact gun on setting 2 and when on ground breaker bar to further tighten them.
Did have a few cars in with welded lug nuts and using a 30" 1/2 drive snap on bar with 6 foot extension and it was a hell of a job to loosen

magicbastarder · 19-04-2021 9:23am

my brother had to have the nuts drilled off on two of the wheels on his car a few months back, i suspect for similar reasons discussed above.

colm_mcm · 19-04-2021 9:41am

blade1 wrote: »

I would't rely on manufacturers spec too easily myself from my own experience.
I've seen plenty of false information in manuals.

So if a manufacturer recommends you don’t lubricate wheel studs, you think there might be a margin of error there?

blade1 · 19-04-2021 9:45am

colm_mcm wrote: »

So if a manufacturer recommends you don’t lubricate wheel studs, you think there might be a margin of error there?

Wasn't on about lubing anything.
I've never lubed a car wheel nut in my life.

colm_mcm · 19-04-2021 9:47am

blade1 wrote: »

Wasn't on about lubing anything.
I've never lubed a car wheel nut in my life.

The post you quoted and disagreed with is from a discussion about lubricating wheel studs.

I take your point generally though.

Tyre shop over-tightening lug nuts

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