The eBike thread

insular1 · 23-07-2019 2:14pm

Would love a crank drive, but I think what really appealed about the hub motor was the ease of set up and low price. This would make it harder for me to screw up and at the same time wouldn't be a huge amount lost if I did screw it up. Still my commute would be pretty hilly, and I also have an off road trail I'd like to use it on if possible so I'm now thinking probably mid-drive is the way to go. Plenty of hills with gradients up to 7% and one that must be at least 10% for about 600meters climb.

On the legality issue is it possible to get a set up where I can limit it to peddle assist and 25km/hr for commuting but then remove this restriction easily for the off road trail if I need/want a bit more power?

unkel · 23-07-2019 5:23pm

xckjoo wrote: »

I'd stress my opinion that a regular, road-legal, front hub motor setup is perfect for the vast majority of commuters. It's also the cheapest and easiest setup to build.

All that is important to me. I live in a fairly flat area anyway. It's just a project for fun.

So all I would need is the kit (in my link above) plus battery (and charger)?

23-07-2019 5:50pm

xckjoo wrote: »

I presume you're not too worried about it being road legal? The relatively low limits on ebikes makes higher powered motors unnecessary IMO.

25kmph max speed is slower than I'd probably do on a decent normal commuter bike but my overall travel time is down because my average speed is higher. I quite like that I'm still getting some exercise from pedalling, but if I'm tired I can drop the pedal speed to virtually zero and let the motor do the heavy lifting. Again, I'd stress my opinion that a regular, road-legal, front hub motor setup is perfect for the vast majority of commuters. It's also the cheapest and easiest setup to build.

Regarding thieves, I tend to take my battery with me when I lock up the bike. They can still steal the rest but good luck to them pedalling off with that and the battery is the most expensive part anyway

Most if not all so called legal ebikes are not legal if you want to look strictly at power, Bosch for instance are more like 750 watts. Most others probably too.

Power is overlooked because acceleration and top assisted speed is severely limited.

I guarantee 250 Watts wouldn't pull a heavy ebike + heavy rider up many hills without serious effort.

You don't need much power on level ground until you start climbing hills then add a heavy rider and you will indeed need much more than 250 watts.

unkel · 23-07-2019 6:01pm

Or not make the battery myself, but use a pair of hoverboard batteries in parallel. Built in BMS, 3C discharge rating (that's more than I need to charge the car at 860W) and come with XC60 connectors installed. $58 for a 0.3kWh (8Ah) lithium pack, that's very cheap :eek:

Linky

Slight issue is that it is a 36V pack. I saw last night that there are 36V hub motors. That's not the issue. And my daughter has a kids electric scooter which I think is also 36V, so could use that charger. More complicated to find a 36V inverter that can power a 1kW AC appliance

Any ideas welcome...

23-07-2019 6:02pm

unkel wrote: »

All that is important to me. I live in a fairly flat area anyway. It's just a project for fun.

So all I would need is the kit (in my link above) plus battery (and charger)?

Yes, that's all you need but I would advise against a front hub if you use aluminium forks, steel forks will be fine.

Depends on the torque, how hard you are with the throttle and how heavy you are + Bike.

The kit should come with torque washers and these are suitable on older bikes where the little groove will fit into the drop out, if your dropouts do not have this then you need to buy separate torque arms, for this motor 1 might be enough.

If you do not use torque arms or if there are supplied torque washers then as soon as you hit the throttle the axle will spin in the droupouts and break the wires, you can rewire it but it's a pain in the ass.

On a similar kit I had many years ago I think I got about 28 mph full throttle level ground and it could climb some hills but a geared hub will be more efficient giving more range and better torque for the same power.

Ebiking is fun.

23-07-2019 6:11pm

unkel wrote: »

Or not make the battery myself, but use a pair of hoverboard batteries in parallel. Built in BMS, 3C discharge rating (that's more than I need to charge the car at 860W) and come with XC60 connectors installed. $58 for a 0.3kWh (8Ah) lithium pack, that's very cheap :eek:

Linky

Slight issue is that it is a 36V pack. I saw last night that there are 36V hub motors. That's not the issue. And my daughter has a kids electric scooter which I think is also 36V, so could use that charger. More complicated to find a 36V inverter that can power a 1kW AC appliance

Any ideas welcome...

That ebike kit will run at 36 volts no problem, it's top speed will be lower and less torque. But here's the thing, the controller will have a low voltage cut off for a 48V battery , you'd need the software and cable to adjust the low voltage cut off to make it work with a 36 V battery.

4 ah battery x 2 would be 8 x 3c = 24 amps so it should handle the motor kit but I feel the peak power would be more.

23-07-2019 6:16pm

Hobby King 20 C 5 ah would be the job, LiPo, dangerous if abused or cells punctured but I never had issue. You need to know what your doing and there won't be a BMS. And you need an RC charger + power supply to connect the balance leads up to which will equalise all the cells if they are out of balance but in general LiPo does not go much out of balance unless it's ran down to a low voltage. But you can make high power cheap batteries.

unkel · 23-07-2019 9:50pm

Yeah I've decided I'm going to buy cheap already made up batteries (with BMS) like above. And I think I'll abandon the idea of the "petrol can" for the EV. I guess a single 36V 4Ah battery be good with a 500W motor?

My bike is a Raleigh, probably about 5-8 years old. Model AL6061 "aluminium tubeset airlite", so yes aluminium. Not sure if fork is aluminium too. And yes, I am a fairly big lad, just under 6'2 and about 100kg

kiely182 · 23-07-2019 10:10pm

I bought one of Andy Kirby's ebike kits. He's a youtuber I've done over 2500miles on it in 6 months and it's been faultless. 1500w with a 52v 17ah battery range varies from 20 to 60miles depending on speed and amount of pedalling.

unkel · 23-07-2019 10:50pm

It was one of his videos that gave me the idea of converting my bike. Didn't even know kits existed. That machine of yours is a beast, but not cheap

kiely182 · 23-07-2019 11:29pm

It wasn't cheap. When you compare it to a factory built model that can do the same it would be around 4 grand. Iam planning in building a 52v 30ah battery using vruzend kit and cells from nkon.nl. I do 50 miles a day 3 or 4 days a week.

23-07-2019 11:37pm

unkel wrote: »

Yeah I've decided I'm going to buy cheap already made up batteries (with BMS) like above. And I think I'll abandon the idea of the "petrol can" for the EV. I guess a single 36V 4Ah battery be good with a 500W motor?

My bike is a Raleigh, probably about 5-8 years old. Model AL6061 "aluminium tubeset airlite", so yes aluminium. Not sure if fork is aluminium too. And yes, I am a fairly big lad, just under 6'2 and about 100kg

I would avoid the front motor, rear hubs are harder to fit but still easy. Few mins job. Snapping forks crossing a busy road is something to avoid.....

The 36 volt battery won't work on the 48 V controller because of the low voltage cut off ( LVC ) , you'd want a 36 V controller. Most of my controllers could be set via software but you might not be able to get it or cable for this controller.

The battery you linked to would likely die fast, it would be 4 ah x the c rate of 3 which is 12 amps and this ebike kit would kill it fast, it's way too much. You have to also think of the peak power.

Lipo is your man for this kind of job, small battery , big power. Or buy a dedicated battery one that you can use on a higher quality kit in the future, ebiking is a lot of fun.

unkel · 23-07-2019 11:51pm

kiely182 wrote: »

It wasn't cheap. When you compare it to a factory built model that can do the same it would be around 4 grand. Iam planning in building a 52v 30ah battery using vruzend kit and cells from nkon.nl. I do 50 miles a day 3 or 4 days a week.

You'll save a fortune compared with commuting in an ICE car. But if I were you with that sort of commute I would go for an EV, not an eBike. For safety alone.

I was about to pull the trigger on a Vruzend kit, but they ain't cheap. And I only needed two full kits. I guess for your 30Ah battery you would go for something like a 13s10p pack. That will need 5 full kits. That's €200 plus a good €500 in batteries (3Ah?) before you even add a single BMS. About a grand in total for just €1.5kWh. That's madness!

Would it not be better and even cheaper to buy a ready built battery? Warrantied and all?

One of these fellas 2.4kWh is about €900 + VAT

unkel · 24-07-2019 12:11am

Deleted User wrote: »

Or buy a dedicated battery one that you can use on a higher quality kit in the future, ebiking is a lot of fun.

I hear ya. Still in two minds about it though. Now I have abandoned the idea of the petrol can, I could go either

-24V and a tiny 250W motor. This not only would be very cheap, but I could also safely go for a FWD. Fully legal too. And I have a single east facing solar panel on my shed, not connected to my grid tie inverter. It's currently charging a couple of leisure batteries in series, so 24V too. Could charge the bike pack on this with solar for free in no time with my existing basic PWM solar charge controller

-On the other hand I could get a more powerful and versatile 48V battery (much more expensive) and go for a high power eBike. I would have to get a charger, which would not run on solar

24-07-2019 9:40am

kiely182 wrote: »

It wasn't cheap. When you compare it to a factory built model that can do the same it would be around 4 grand. Iam planning in building a 52v 30ah battery using vruzend kit and cells from nkon.nl. I do 50 miles a day 3 or 4 days a week.

Have you a link to the kit ?

xckjoo · 24-07-2019 10:26am

Sorry in advance if I miss some stuff here. Only having a quick scan so will be short on info but I think my experiences have been a bit different from Mad_Lads so want to present that side. His technical info looks sound but I think his power requirements are overkill for most :pac:.

insular1 wrote: »

Would love a crank drive, but I think what really appealed about the hub motor was the ease of set up and low price. This would make it harder for me to screw up and at the same time wouldn't be a huge amount lost if I did screw it up. Still my commute would be pretty hilly, and I also have an off road trail I'd like to use it on if possible so I'm now thinking probably mid-drive is the way to go. Plenty of hills with gradients up to 7% and one that must be at least 10% for about 600meters climb.

On the legality issue is it possible to get a set up where I can limit it to peddle assist and 25km/hr for commuting but then remove this restriction easily for the off road trail if I need/want a bit more power?

I wouldn't bring a hub motor off-road as they are applying forces to the fork that isn't technically designed for them. It's fine on roads but not for rough treatment. You'd probably snap it pretty quick.

The motors are generally more than 250W so it's the controller that limits the power output. I've never bothered messing with mine but they are generally programmable so you could potentially reprogram for different situations but not sure how convenient that would be. Again I'd go mid-drive if I wanted to start looking at higher power.

unkel wrote: »

All that is important to me. I live in a fairly flat area anyway. It's just a project for fun.

So all I would need is the kit (in my link above) plus battery (and charger)?

I think front hub is the best fit so. By far the simplest to set up and no major bike mechanic skills needed. I'll give a bit more detail below.

Deleted User wrote: »

Most if not all so called legal ebikes are not legal if you want to look strictly at power, Bosch for instance are more like 750 watts. Most others probably too.

Power is overlooked because acceleration and top assisted speed is severely limited.

I guarantee 250 Watts wouldn't pull a heavy ebike + heavy rider up many hills without serious effort.

You don't need much power on level ground until you start climbing hills then add a heavy rider and you will indeed need much more than 250 watts.

Ya it's technically 25kmph and 250W isn't it? Really don't understand the power output limit. Abysmally low and irrelevant to safety etc. I might not be fully compliant in that regards :pac:

Deleted User wrote: »

I would avoid the front motor, rear hubs are harder to fit but still easy. Few mins job. Snapping forks crossing a busy road is something to avoid.....

I had a disaster of an experience getting my first ebike going as it was rear hub. There's a decent level of bike knowledge needed to do it as you're messing with things like gear hubs. When I built it there was only freewheel

gear hubs that were compatible with the rear hub motors so first I had to track down one of them, then it was spacing issues and the gear alignment was a disaster. Full disclosure though, it was an MTB frame and in hindsight not suited for the conversion. It literally took weeks and involved an angle grinder for a brief period

. A few years later I decided to build a fresh one and went for a front hub. Took me an afternoon and have had zero issues since.
Here's the advice I'd give anyone thinking of doing a conversion. If you're a casual cyclist and just looking for a commuting bike on a route that's mainly city or decent roads, go front hub motor. You want a fairly robust bike. Forget your carbon fibres, suspension and all that. You won't miss it (well maybe the suspension with the state of our roads

). Steel frames are ideal but it's the fork that's most important. You can switch them out if you needs to. Potentially just buy and old beater bike off donedeal as it could be cheaper and easier than trying to do changes yourself. Dropouts on the fork are the other factor. Some more modern designs use shorter dropouts for quicker tyre changes. You don't want that. The longer the better so they can provide more purchase. Don't skip on the torque arm either. You're applying forces in ways the bike wasn't set up for. It'll be fine as long as you take care. I've had zero issues with mine and have been using it near daily for the last few years. Also, get the PAS that doesn't need you to remove the bottom bracket of the bike if possible. Those things are a nightmare to remove and require special tools.

With the front hub set up, you only really need to know how to change a bike tyre, wheel and brake levers. If you're the kind of person that loves tinkering with a bike I'd go rear or mid-drive. They are mechanically superior set ups, but again I think this is overkill for most people. I use mine for commuting so can't afford too much down time and never fully got to grips with all the gear alignment stuff on a bike. TBH I rarely change gears on the bike since putting the motor on so set-and-forget appeals to me.

beauf · 24-07-2019 10:29am

xckjoo wrote: »

S... I use mine for commuting so can't afford too much down time and never fully got to grips with all the gear alignment stuff on a bike. TBH I rarely change gears on the bike since putting the motor on so set-and-forget appeals to me.

With the front motor do you find you rely on it, or actually still get some cycling in. (sorry this is slightly off topic from the OP requirements).

24-07-2019 10:29am

unkel wrote: »

I hear ya. Still in two minds about it though. Now I have abandoned the idea of the petrol can, I could go either

-24V and a tiny 250W motor. This not only would be very cheap, but I could also safely go for a FWD. Fully legal too. And I have a single east facing solar panel on my shed, not connected to my grid tie inverter. It's currently charging a couple of leisure batteries in series, so 24V too. Could charge the bike pack on this with solar for free in no time with my existing basic PWM solar charge controller

-On the other hand I could get a more powerful and versatile 48V battery (much more expensive) and go for a high power eBike. I would have to get a charger, which would not run on solar

Just think about what you want, cheap or good ? Buying a cheap kit and upgrading later is a waste of money and you'll likely have to sell the existing kit on ebay and that's a lot of hassle. Selling in Ireland will be difficult.

The first link you posted to will do the job but be a b1tch to pedal without power, get it in rear wheel setup, it won't be any more expensive. You will need to add a cassette to match the gearing on your bike.

It's a 48V controller so you need a 48V battery and one that can handle at least 25 amps of current. You should be able to find a 36 volt version on ebay handy enough.

Steer well away from unknown battery sources, em3ev builds his own and has a fantastic reputation in the DIY ebike community, check out endless-sphere.

The Mac 8T with 30 amp controller would do the job nicely, even 40 amps with 48V will be around 2 Kw and a lot of fun.

Or get the Bafang BBS02 or BBSHD crank drive, they are not very difficult to fit and you have tonnes of power for all terrain, put the bike in the boot of the car and take it to some trails, it will be a blast and it's a bike that can do anything.

The crank drive will be easier on the battery too as they are more efficient because they can use the bikes gearing.

The BBS HD can be set de-tuned to 25 amps or to the full 30 amps on em3ev when you buy it. I would go with the 30 amp, you don't have to use all the power.

You're talking around 1 K or more if customs get you, they never did get me from em3ev but then again that was several years ago.

You could spend 500 euro's on a kit that is not so good but the choice is yours, the BBSHD would be better than many electric bikes sold that cost thousands more.

xckjoo · 24-07-2019 10:37am

beauf wrote: »

With the front motor do you find you rely on it, or actually still get some cycling in. (sorry this is slightly off topic from the OP requirements).

I find I'm cycling it more often than not. It's a bit hard to explain unless you try it but basically you start pedaling and the motor kicks in and speeds you up. When you hit 25kmph it turns off and your doing all the work to keep the momentum going. If i want a bit more help I'll slow my pedalling back down until I drop below 25kmph and it'll kick in again. You can get a decent heart rate going if you want or take it easy so you don't arrive too work covered in sweat. I find 25kmph a little slow but I can push that up above 30 with some effort and it's probably a fine speed anyway. Your average speed will probably be higher than on a standard bike unless you're a decent cyclist already

24-07-2019 10:42am

Direct drive motors are an absolute pig to cycle without power.

Geared hubs can be got in front wheel format also. ( but I would not use more than 500 watts max )

Fitting a rear hub the first time tok me 20 mins max because I had to get the spacers aligned properly and really bend the frame to get it in, that was back in about 2009/10 they fit a lot better now depending on where you get the kit, Paul from em3ev gets his direct from the factory and deals with them directly. I had 0 issue fitting a mac 8t back in a bout 2011, I really miss that motor.

Next motor I got was a Golden Motor magic Pie II, built in controller, about 750 watts but it wasn't enough for me so I ripped the controller out and put in a 40 amp and boy did it fly haha. Those were the days, but due to it's size it was even worse to pedal without power.

The Golden motor kits are actually pretty decent, easy to fit and built in controller.

All the direct drive hubs, ( without internal gearing ) are designed for those who don't want to pedal or peddle very little, if the battery runs down you will have a very hard time peddling home so my advice is for anyone who likes efficiency or any form of peddling to avoid direct drives like the plague.

Also the crank drive motors are not actually designed solely for high power use, on the contrary , they are better for lower power because you can use the bikes gear and choose a lower gear when the motor starts to struggle.

Crank drives are harder on the chain , gears etc but all this is really a doddle to repair and if you don;t constantly hammer the throttle they will last a lot longer.

24-07-2019 10:48am

One word of caution, if running power and going over 25 mph a lot you will need to upgrade the brakes and hydraulic brakes are essential.

All I did was upgrade the disks to 8 inch front and rear with adaptors and the difference in stopping power was simply amazing, keep this in mind !

unkel · 24-07-2019 11:10am

Deleted User wrote: »

You're talking around 1 K or more if customs get you, they never did get me from em3ev but then again that was several years ago.

You could spend 500 euro's on a kit that is not so good but the choice is yours, the BBSHD would be better than many electric bikes sold that cost thousands more.

I wasn't planning to spend anywhere near €500, preferably well less than half that

I guess I will go 24V and 250W front hub motor so. As per my usual policy, if I buy really cheap, and I don't like them or want rid, I will have no problem selling the parts on again on adverts for close to what I payed for them, sometimes even for more.

xckjoo · 24-07-2019 11:44am

unkel wrote: »

I wasn't planning to spend anywhere near €500, preferably well less than half that

I guess I will go 24V and 250W front hub motor so. As per my usual policy, if I buy really cheap, and I don't like them or want rid, I will have no problem selling the parts on again on adverts for close to what I payed for them, sometimes even for more.

I'd go for a higher powered hub motor and set the controller to 25kmph cut-off. As Mad_Lad said, the motor would struggle to get to 25kmph with only 250W power to play with. Think mine is rated to 500W. You also might struggle a bit to get it at that price unless battery prices have come down. Mine was roughly €300 for the kit and €300 for the battery. I moved the battery from my original bike to my new one. It's paid for itself multiple times over at this stage. This is who I ordered from (slightly different stuff in my kit). It's configured to go on EU roads so no tinkering with the programming controllers, etc. You'll get cheaper stuff from China or the US, but you'll gamble on getting caught for VAT. There's also a Spanish site that's pretty cheap, and a few UK sites that can vary. I'll try and dig up the links later. endless-sphere is the place to go for technical know-how

unkel · 24-07-2019 11:57am

Well from my link, it showed a 4Ah 36V battery for $29. Two of these would be enough for a 1000W motor

That site doesn't ship outside the US though and I can't find these batteries anywhere near that price from other sites, but still wouldn't be too hard to get them for around €100

Then €150 for the kit for a total of €250. Hoping to do better than that, but that's my target. A 250W kit and 24V battery I would aim for under €200 in total. All of these including shipping, but not taking into account being hit by customs.

xckjoo · 24-07-2019 11:58am

Deleted User wrote: »

One word of caution, if running power and going over 25 mph a lot you will need to upgrade the brakes and hydraulic brakes are essential.

All I did was upgrade the disks to 8 inch front and rear with adaptors and the difference in stopping power was simply amazing, keep this in mind !

On the brakes issue, I'd agree that disk brakes are probably needed for speeds >25kmph. I'm using the old school cantilever ones and have had mixed experiences. On my original conversion, I was burning through them constantly. On the new conversion they've been holding up well and I've only changed them a few times. I must have had something off on the first one that was causing them to be worn through too fast. Maybe my brake sensor wasn't working fully and the motor wasn't cutting out fast enough when I pulled the brakes.

Anyway, cantilever style brakes will work fine on a 25kmph hub motor but for gods sake keep an eye on them at watch out for wear. I keep a few spares at home for quick changes as necessary. Some conversion kits aren't compatible with disk brakes so check before purchasing.

unkel · 24-07-2019 12:07pm

I've no need to go over 25km/h. So that means that with any standard kit, as long as I put in a minimum effort on the pedals, the motor will come on and I can apply max throttle to get me up to my required speed (typically about 20-25km/h I would imagine)?

xckjoo · 24-07-2019 12:29pm

unkel wrote: »

I've no need to go over 25km/h. So that means that with any standard kit, as long as I put in a minimum effort on the pedals, the motor will come on and I can apply max throttle to get me up to my required speed (typically about 20-25km/h I would imagine)?

Not sure to be honest. I'd personally worry about running the motor at max power so much, but not an expert on electric motors. I guess it would just ramp up to 250W output straight away and stay at that until you get it up to 25kmph with pedal power and then cut out. I'll try and keep an eye on the power output on the way home to get a better idea.

If you could find a slightly higher powered motor for a little bit extra I'd go for that, but I understand the challenge of keeping things bare-boned being part of the fun.

beauf · 24-07-2019 12:34pm

Talking of bare boned I like the idea of the Gtech e bike, single speed, simple frame, no gears, belt drive.

https://www.gtech.co.uk/ebikes/ebike-sport.html

Be nice to do something similar.

Henry Ford III · 24-07-2019 1:06pm

Interesting.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/escooters-seized-as-gardai-warn-riders-to-stay-off-streets-38330934.html

.......The Garda spokesman said: "The Road Traffic Act defines a mechanically propelled vehicle as a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means.

"It also includes a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical, or partly electrical and partly mechanical. Whether or not a vehicle requires a push-start is legally irrelevant.

"E-scooters and powered skateboards fall into this category, and are therefore considered to be mechanically propelled vehicles. Any users of such vehicles in a public place must have insurance, road tax and a driving licence, with penalties under road traffic laws, including fixed charge notices, penalty points, fines and possible seizure of the vehicle."

The spokesman added: "As it is currently not possible to tax or insure e-scooters or electric skateboards, they are not considered suitable for use in a public place. There is no anomaly within the law."

What are your views on this?

xckjoo · 24-07-2019 1:54pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Interesting.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/escooters-seized-as-gardai-warn-riders-to-stay-off-streets-38330934.html

.......The Garda spokesman said: "The Road Traffic Act defines a mechanically propelled vehicle as a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means.

"It also includes a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical, or partly electrical and partly mechanical. Whether or not a vehicle requires a push-start is legally irrelevant.

"E-scooters and powered skateboards fall into this category, and are therefore considered to be mechanically propelled vehicles. Any users of such vehicles in a public place must have insurance, road tax and a driving licence, with penalties under road traffic laws, including fixed charge notices, penalty points, fines and possible seizure of the vehicle."

The spokesman added: "As it is currently not possible to tax or insure e-scooters or electric skateboards, they are not considered suitable for use in a public place. There is no anomaly within the law."

What are your views on this?

So just to clarify, this doesn't refer to "ebikes" (or pedelecs as I believe they're called) because they require the operator to pedal to move it. If it doesn't have a PAS (pedal sensor) and works off a throttle, it wouldn't be a pedelec and wouldn't be road legal (leaving aside the other requirements for now).
I'm in two minds about if e-scooters and the like should be 1) allowed and 2) taxed and insured. On the one hand they look like a great way to get around, but on the other hand people will use them badly and are causing issues in all the major cities they've become popular in. There isn't really a place they fit in on our current transport infrastructure. They probably shouldn't be on footpaths because that's for people walking and they don't need to constantly watch out for idiots on scooters. Maybe they would be okay on roads and cycle lanes, but cars and squishy people are not a safe mix. I guess ideally we'd have a different road infrastructure and they'd fit in better, but at the moment everything is built around the car.

Not sure about tax and insurance either. They should serve to increase peoples ability to commute without a car (desirable to society) but they don'really come with the increase in exercise and health benefits that a bike brings, and the batteries have a significant environmental impact associated. I guess I wouldn't be mad if they brought in tax and insurance requirements but maybe I'm bike biased

. I still don't see how they can safely fit in to our current transport infrastructure but that doesn't always seem to be a requirement in this country :pac:

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