Can A tenant change a hob without telling landlord?

Ginger83 · 05-08-2020 6:05pm #1

Long story short my sisters tenant complained twice about a problem with their hob. The hob was checked twice by an appliance repair guy and she was told both times it was working fine. The repair guy gave my sister his view that the impression he got was that the tenant wanted a new hob.

Today my sister gets a message to say the tenant had someone in and has replaced the hob without her consent or knowledge and is now looking for the cost of all. My sister asked me my advice but I am not sure. Any thoughts?

jam_mac_jam · 05-08-2020 6:07pm

No, if they replaced it and didn't get permission then they can pay for it.

Gumbo · 05-08-2020 6:38pm

No. Not without the landlords permission.
And considering the LL has already had the hob checked Then the tenant is taking the pi55.

Now. On the other hand, what condition is the current hob in?
Is it an old hob that’s in bits?

I’d love to see a photo of it because I’ve seen some hobs in houses that I wouldn’t give away for free!

Mr Hindley · 05-08-2020 6:39pm

Speaking as a landlord, the tenant is bang out of order here. It would be different if the tenant complained multiple times and the landlord did nothing, but that's not the case here.

fash · 05-08-2020 8:31pm

Who installed the new hob? Was it an electrician or the tenant themselves?
I'd have it checked by a professional.

Nekarsulm · 05-08-2020 8:34pm

No reduction on the re t, as it was changed without permission/after the landlord went to the expense of getting it checked.
Also, new hob must remain in property when tenants vacates..

Eric Cartman · 05-08-2020 8:38pm

Nekarsulm wrote: »

No reduction on the re t, as it was changed without permission/after the landlord went to the expense of getting it checked.
Also, new hob must remain in property when tenants vacates..

not necessarily. My landlord wouldn't be one for throwing money about , we had a lot of very very cheap / old appliances in the house and no prospect of them getting changed. Ive a really good free standing cooker , fridge, dishwasher and a few other bits.

Luckily we have outbuildings to store the old ones and no modification to the building was needed to fit the new ones, but the old ones will be going back in when I leave.

I do agree however the landlord shouldn't have to pay for it.

beauf · 06-08-2020 12:31am

Electrical stuff generally doesn''t survive damp out buildings and garages.

davindub · 06-08-2020 8:14am

Ginger83 wrote: »

Long story short my sisters tenant complained twice about a problem with their hob. The hob was checked twice by an appliance repair guy and she was told both times it was working fine. The repair guy gave my sister his view that the impression he got was that the tenant wanted a new hob.

Today my sister gets a message to say the tenant had someone in and has replaced the hob without her consent or knowledge and is now looking for the cost of all. My sister asked me my advice but I am not sure. Any thoughts?

How much is a new hob? I think it would be less costly than sending in a repair guy twice?

I think you really only realise if a hob is working correctly by cooking on it, sometimes there is power to it and it appears to heat up, but is useless. Usually there is a basis for a complaint and repair guys often miss the issue.

I would probably pay for it if they used a reasonable cost model and give the tenant a stern talking to.

The Mighty Quinn · 06-08-2020 8:17am

davindub wrote: »

How much is a new hob? I think it would be less costly than sending in a repair guy twice?

I think you really only realise if a hob is working correctly by cooking on it, sometimes there is power to it and it appears to heat up, but is useless. Usually there is a basis for a complaint and repair guys often miss the issue.

I would probably pay for it if they used a reasonable cost model and give the tenant a stern talking to.

We recently got a new hob and oven for €250, including installation. Not exactly top of the range but they're new and clean and work well.

I would think a repair man visit would be 50-60 call out fee anyway.

Cape Clear · 06-08-2020 8:21am

Fair play to the tenant a lot of people in rental accommodation wouldn't even a light bulb. Never good when a ll is relying on an internet forum for advice.

colm_mcm · 06-08-2020 8:27am

Cape Clear wrote: »

Fair play to the tenant a lot of people in rental accommodation wouldn't even a light bulb. Never good when a ll is relying on an internet forum for advice.

The OP has a question they don’t know the answer to, and is getting different perspectives here, what’s the issue?

The Mighty Quinn · 06-08-2020 8:29am

Cape Clear wrote: »

Fair play to the tenant a lot of people in rental accommodation wouldn't even a light bulb. Never good when a ll is relying on an internet forum for advice.

Hmmm. In this case the hob was deemed perfectly functional by a professional serviceman. Maybe the landlord won't mind if the person wanted to install a new hob at their own expense (still should get permission before altering somebody else's property), but if they tried to deduct it from rent owed, well given the situation presented, its totally unacceptable.

I'm neither a tenant or a landlord. I'm paying a mortgage on my own place.

listermint · 06-08-2020 8:35am

Tenant completely out of order. But you now have a problem. Where is the original. And will the tenant take this hob with them when they leave.

06-08-2020 8:49am

Cape Clear wrote: »

Fair play to the tenant a lot of people in rental accommodation wouldn't even a light bulb. Never good when a ll is relying on an internet forum for advice.

I rely on Internet forums for all kinds of advice, it’s often the quickest and simplest resource, often you get advice from people who work in the sector you require advice on, or have experience of the same problem. I used a different forum last night to fix a jammed ice maker, Tuesday evening I had a small issue with an Orbi mesh network system, Internet forums are great for advice.

Graham · 06-08-2020 8:57am

Ginger83 wrote: »

my sisters tenant complained twice about a problem with their hob.

Cape Clear wrote: »

Never good when a ll is relying on an internet forum for advice.

must read slower.

06-08-2020 9:44am

Absolutely totally out of order, refuse to pay and look at moving on the tenant at the next possible chance as you don’t want this type of tenant who you don’t know what they will do next and expect you to pay for it.

davindub · 06-08-2020 10:25am

The Mighty Quinn wrote: »

We recently got a new hob and oven for €250, including installation. Not exactly top of the range but they're new and clean and work well.

I would think a repair man visit would be 50-60 call out fee anyway.

Electricians I think are generally more for a call out, I have paid 120 for a call out and 1st hour

Fol20 · 06-08-2020 10:28am

Cape Clear wrote: »

Fair play to the tenant a lot of people in rental accommodation wouldn't even a light bulb. Never good when a ll is relying on an internet forum for advice.

This tenant is actually worse. The ll sounds like a good ll given he has had a appliance repair guy inspect it twice. I suspect the second time was to only appease the tenant given no issues were found. The fact the tenant went out and replaced it without the ll permission is terrible. The fact they then ask for the money back is even worse.

bamayang · 06-08-2020 10:31am

Your getting both extremes in the responses, I would do the following. Assuming the tenant is a good tenant, I would suggest to them it was foolish to go and purchase without speaking to your sister, especially when it was checked out twice already. But as someone mentioned, it might be an intermittent issue, and if you don't have a cooker working when you need it, that would fairly drive you round the bend each evening after work. Confirm that the hob will be left there if they leave house, and if that is agreed, offer to pay 1/2 the cost of the new hob.

06-08-2020 10:48am

bamayang wrote: »

Your getting both extremes in the responses, I would do the following. Assuming the tenant is a good tenant, I would suggest to them it was foolish to go and purchase without speaking to your sister, especially when it was checked out twice already. But as someone mentioned, it might be an intermittent issue, and if you don't have a cooker working when you need it, that would fairly drive you round the bend each evening after work. Confirm that the hob will be left there if they leave house, and if that is agreed, offer to pay 1/2 the cost of the new hob.

Why show weakness, refuse to pay. What will they buy next and expect a contribution. Tenant needs to be taught a lesson.

colm_mcm · 06-08-2020 10:58am

Would be interesting to see if they’ve upgraded from a ceramic job to induction.

Meeoow · 06-08-2020 11:02am

Where is the old hob? Why doesn't ll keep it, and tell the tenant to take the hob they bought with them when they move. It's their property.
Assuming that the old hob is working and the ll gives in to the tenant, they'll walk all over her.

Fol20 · 06-08-2020 11:10am

bamayang wrote: »

Your getting both extremes in the responses, I would do the following. Assuming the tenant is a good tenant, I would suggest to them it was foolish to go and purchase without speaking to your sister, especially when it was checked out twice already. But as someone mentioned, it might be an intermittent issue, and if you don't have a cooker working when you need it, that would fairly drive you round the bend each evening after work. Confirm that the hob will be left there if they leave house, and if that is agreed, offer to pay 1/2 the cost of the new hob.

Completely disagree with this.
-Never assume a tenant is good(good is in the eyes of the beholder), What does your sister think of this Tenant, I have my own assumptions of this type of tenant as i have experienced similar types in the past but i could be wrong.
-The ll paid and did what is required of them by getting a professional out to inspect the cooker - both times were fine.
-The tenant went ahead without the ll permission to replace a working cooker - not good. Why did the tenant call the ll twice before and since they are not happy with the response, they did their own thing - by you giving into their demands, it can lead to more "requests"
-The tenant doesnt own the property and has no right to do what they did. The tenant should have called the ll if there is an issue and not go rogue. If the issue is intermittent, the tenant could have recorded it. The fact the issue cant be reproduced in anyway leaves doubt in my head.
-Even though you could probably expense this and get circa 50pc back. I dont like tenants that do stuff independently of asking me first. I have seen some very extreme cases of this and im very firm as a result.
-You should now be keeping the receipt of the cooker in case of issues, you should now own the new cooker given what they have done. If they did not use an approved electrician, i would be charging them to get in your electrician.

Pkiernan · 06-08-2020 11:13am

Cape Clear wrote: »

Fair play to the tenant a lot of people in rental accommodation wouldn't even a light bulb. Never good when a ll is relying on an internet forum for advice.

Didnt take long for the attacks on the evil landlord I see...

James Bond Junior · 06-08-2020 11:21am

If my tenant went and changed a hob in my house I'd be pretty annoyed. First of all WHO fitted it and have they the correct qualifications to do so? A gas hob needs to be installed by a registered gas installer, electric by a RECI spark etc. Insurance could be deemed null and void if there was a fire resulting from the hob being installed incorrectly. I speak from experience on this matter, my gas hob was incorrectly done, my fault for getting a nixer, and the gas engineer was less than impressed when he saw it.

Next, if the tenant had a working hob, they should not be replacing it. If the they wanted a new hob, fair enough but an agreement between both parties needs to be drawn up. EG proper installation, proper storage of the existing hob and an agreement on what happens the new hob when the tenant moves out.

pauldavis123 · 06-08-2020 11:33am

Ask for the minor works certificate for the electrical work that was done.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 06-08-2020 11:39am

As a landlord I would be p*ssed that they went ahead and did it without talking to me. I certainly wouldn't be paying for it and would be concerned if the work was done right.

During the lockdown the lawnmower in my rental house died. They contacted me and we agreed that they would identify a new one and let me know if I was good with it, buy it, send me an image of the receipt and deduct it from the next month's rent. No big deal, it got sorted quickly and everyone was happy.

colm_mcm · 06-08-2020 12:29pm

There is the danger of not keeping the tenant on side and paying rent.

Not advocating letting them walk all over you but this could escalate.

MacDanger · 06-08-2020 2:00pm

As a tenant, I'd never do something like this, it's way out of order (assuming that the story is correct as told)

Fol20 · 06-08-2020 2:02pm

colm_mcm wrote: »

There is the danger of not keeping the tenant on side and paying rent.

Not advocating letting them walk all over you but this could escalate.

Your right but at the same time. I can’t let someone take advantage of a situation of their own doing given the sister did as much as she could do. Calmly outline what you have done to remedy the situation. And outline that you are unable to pay for the new cooker given your maintenance guy was unable to detect an issue and you did something without agreeing it first.

Bikerman2019 · 06-08-2020 2:08pm

I manage a tenant who put in a wooden floor without permission. He then tried to claim it back as the carpet was "worn". Told no.

Same guy asked about painting the house, we told him he could do it himself if he wished and we would pay for basic paint. He used the most expensive stuff in woodies at 65 euro a bucket. Woodies OB was 35 euro. He is getting the woodies price only.

Same guy wants a shed, said he was ENTITLED to a shed, was refused and said it was OK, the council would give him one. I KID YOU NOT. He was not impressed when told the council have no say in it. It is not a council house, it is a private house on HAP.

He is kept in reality by being told NO. If he is unhappy with the perfectly good house which has a perfectly fair lease, he can request council moves him.

charlietheminxx · 06-08-2020 2:36pm

It's hard to know what the right course of action is here considering we are only hearing one side of the story. I can't imagine there would be many people who would be hassling the landlord and facilitating two separate visits from repair technicians if the hob wasn't giving them any issues.

There's so much we don't know here, how old was the hob? What was the issue the tenant had with it? When was the problem first reported to the landlord?

It's easy for people here to say the tenant was out of order, but I've seen landlords drag their heels over repairs for months. If this was going on for a while (which it presumably was with 2 call-outs) and the tenant was being left with half-cooked dinners etc, their actions make more sense.

REXER · 06-08-2020 2:39pm

Where does the assumption that the "appliance repair man" was in any way a professional? He could well have been Mick the handy man of Fly by Night Services, operating on a mobile phone for all we know!

Not saying that he is, but the assumption that he is a professional is a bit of a leap of faith.

James Bond Junior · 06-08-2020 3:03pm

REXER wrote: »

Where does the assumption that the "appliance repair man" was in any way a professional? He could well have been Mick the handy man of Fly by Night Services, operating on a mobile phone for all we know!

Not saying that he is, but the assumption that he is a professional is a bit of a leap of faith.

It doesn't pay you to send these guys, a landlord wants every receipt going in order to offset some of the huge tax paid on rental income. A nixer costs you more in reality. :rolleyes:

enricoh · 06-08-2020 8:56pm

A mate of mine had a tenant in a few years ago who replaced a fridge and docked it out of the next months rent .
The following month he had a problem with the plumbing, didn't ring the landlord, got one of his fellow countrymen to fix it. No receipts of course n docked it outta the rent.
Soon after he stopped paying rent altogether! Show no weakness I reckon!

Ray Palmer · 07-08-2020 12:11pm

I kept my first house to rent it out. The house was my home. As we were moving to a totally different shaped house we left some of our furniture for the rental. Not tatty worn out furniture. There were 2 large sofas that cost €1500 each and required taking the window out to get them in. They wouldn't have suited new house or fit the layout.
Visiting the house to fix a plumbing issue I notice both sofas gone. About 6 months after renting. There was a cheap small 2 seater and a 3 seater sofa bed in their place.so I asked what happened. The proceeded to say the sofas were very old and worn so they threw them out and these were their sofas. They were 2 years old and emaculate.
They then proceeded to show me the sofas in broken pieces stuffed into the shed with piles of rubbish. They couldn't see any issue with what they did. Then just said take it out of the deposit. When I explained that they pay now and the deposit is for any additional damage they cause they went mental. I had pictures of everything and priced the furniture they bought. They then tried to say I could keep their sofas as payment. They paid €600 in total. The sofa bed was because an additional person was living there.

I make it clear that any changes to furniture, fixtures and fittings go through me every time I rent to new people with a book on how everything works.

They called themselves good tenants because they paid rent on time.

Ginger83 · 07-08-2020 6:07pm

Thanks, i gave her the overall view of this thread.

So she said they are ok tenants, rent is always paid. No major problems apart from an issue with a toilet she was not told about for a while. They had pulled all the workings out of the cistern and tried to fix it themselves with unsuitable parts and when it did not work told her it was her problem.

The repair guy is an appliance repair guy with 30 years experience and always gives a vat receipt. Seemingly the hob is 2nd hand and they have no receipt for the electric work. Oh and the hob that was taken out was their 2nd hob because they had broken the glass on a previous 1.

Fol20 · 08-08-2020 12:13am

Ginger83 wrote: »

Thanks, i gave her the overall view of this thread.

So she said they are ok tenants, rent is always paid. No major problems apart from an issue with a toilet she was not told about for a while. They had pulled all the workings out of the cistern and tried to fix it themselves with unsuitable parts and when it did not work told her it was her problem.

The repair guy is an appliance repair guy with 30 years experience and always gives a vat receipt. Seemingly the hob is 2nd hand and they have no receipt for the electric work. Oh and the hob that was taken out was their 2nd hob because they had broken the glass on a previous 1.

All of what you said would be alarm bells to me.
-Ask them where the original hob is as its bad enough installing a new hob without your permission, its worse again to install second hand one when you do not know the reliability of this - if they dumped the original hob, bill them for this.
-Since they have no receipt for the electric work, you will for sure need your electrician to verify the work - bill them for this - this is a must as it can void your insurance cover for dodgy workmanship.
-These tenants seems to have a reputation for doing stuff without your sisters permission - you need to be firm with them and ensure they are billed for everything so they learn their lesson or i suspect "something else" will happen in the future at some point.
-When they broke the glass of the older hob, who paid for it? please tell me you charged them.

08-08-2020 12:22am

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I kept my first house to rent it out. The house was my home. As we were moving to a totally different shaped house we left some of our furniture for the rental. Not tatty worn out furniture. There were 2 large sofas that cost €1500 each and required taking the window out to get them in. They wouldn't have suited new house or fit the layout.
Visiting the house to fix a plumbing issue I notice both sofas gone. About 6 months after renting. There was a cheap small 2 seater and a 3 seater sofa bed in their place.so I asked what happened. The proceeded to say the sofas were very old and worn so they threw them out and these were their sofas. They were 2 years old and emaculate.
They then proceeded to show me the sofas in broken pieces stuffed into the shed with piles of rubbish. They couldn't see any issue with what they did. Then just said take it out of the deposit. When I explained that they pay now and the deposit is for any additional damage they cause they went mental. I had pictures of everything and priced the furniture they bought. They then tried to say I could keep their sofas as payment. They paid €600 in total. The sofa bed was because an additional person was living there.

I make it clear that any changes to furniture, fixtures and fittings go through me every time I rent to new people with a book on how everything works.

They called themselves good tenants because they paid rent on time.

if you cared that much about your sofas you should have put them.in storage. They were wrong to do what they did. You were naive to think anyone you rent your house to would care about your sofas the way you do.

You sound like one of those landlords who can't accept that when you rent your property its not your home any more.

I've been a renter from an "accidental landlord" and I thank my gods of small things it was temporary pending purchasing my own house. Myself and my wife decided not to retain and rent out a property she owned because we did not believe we had the time available to commit to being landlords (I have a job, that's how we earn money).

Graham · 08-08-2020 1:25am

being a landlord means you should expect to have your furniture chopped up?

08-08-2020 8:24am

Graham wrote: »

being a landlord means you should expect to have your furniture chopped up?

That's exactly what I said.

ecoli3136 wrote: »

*to everyone else * if you cared that much about your sofas you should have put them.in storage. They were wrong to do what they did. You were naive to think anyone you rent your house to would care about your sofas the way you do.

*to Graham's subconscious* you should definitely expect your tenant to chop up your sofas and that's ok

Indeed.

Graham · 08-08-2020 9:22am

I have no particular emotional attachment to my own furniture, at the same time I'd be pretty peeved if some plonker decided to chop it up.

To anyone who has ever complained about the state of furniture in many rental properties, this type of behaviour goes towards explaining the why. Apparently landlords should remove anything decent in case a tenant should decide to mangle it.

08-08-2020 10:14am

As a basic proposition consider visiting the property more frequently than once every six months if you really care about it/the contents, especially early in the tenancy. Naive not to unless you really know and trust your tenants.

The_Conductor · 08-08-2020 10:18am

The Mighty Quinn wrote: »

We recently got a new hob and oven for €250, including installation. Not exactly top of the range but they're new and clean and work well.

I would think a repair man visit would be 50-60 call out fee anyway.

I had a new ceramic hob installed during the week- I paid €425 for the hob and €50 for installation.

It depends on what you buy.

I also installed a Pyro oven- it came to over €600.

The tenant was bang right out of order on this one- esp. as the landlord was out of pocket for two call outs by an electrician who certified the original hob as being in perfect working order.

Fol20 · 08-08-2020 11:01am

ecoli3136 wrote: »

You sound like one of those landlords who can't accept that when you rent your property its not your home any more.
.

Not really. He sounds like he spent a lot of money on a couch, the couch was a quality couch and the tenant took it on himself to destroy said couch without the ll permission. Not sure how this can be in any way the ll fault

Fol20 · 08-08-2020 11:02am

ecoli3136 wrote: »

As a basic proposition consider visiting the property more frequently than once every six months if you really care about it/the contents, especially early in the tenancy. Naive not to unless you really know and trust your tenants.

Visiting more often will not stop a tenant from destroying a property.

The_Conductor · 08-08-2020 11:07am

ecoli3136 wrote: »

As a basic proposition consider visiting the property more frequently than once every six months if you really care about it/the contents, especially early in the tenancy. Naive not to unless you really know and trust your tenants.

You will be in breach of a tenant's right to peaceful enjoyment of their home- if you do this. Tenants have successfully argued to the RTB that an annual check should be sufficient and any landlords who decide to inspect more frequently are impinging on tenant's rights. There has to be a balance- the deck of cards are stacked in favour of tenants however.

Ray Palmer · 10-08-2020 12:04pm

ecoli3136 wrote: »

if you cared that much about your sofas you should have put them.in storage. They were wrong to do what they did. You were naive to think anyone you rent your house to would care about your sofas the way you do.

You sound like one of those landlords who can't accept that when you rent your property its not your home any more.

I've been a renter from an "accidental landlord" and I thank my gods of small things it was temporary pending purchasing my own house. Myself and my wife decided not to retain and rent out a property she owned because we did not believe we had the time available to commit to being landlords (I have a job, that's how we earn money).

That is a lot od assumption and misreading. I have acted as a landlord for over 20 years.

I fully accept it is not my home but it is my property and so is the content provided. They have absolutely no right to destroy my property.

I certainly don't expect a tenant to treat property and content as their own. They destroyed €2000 worth of sofas and claimed to owe me nothing and then offered €600 cheap furniture as a replacement after they were used by them.

Never complain why there is cheap furniture in a rented place when tenants act like this.it just doesn't make financial sense to spend money on furniture when renting. I have the same make and model of washing machine after 10 years working fine. One lasted 3 years in rental the other 2 less than 2 years. Shows the attitude of tenants and you seem to think this is to be expected. Great then you know why rents are high. It is work to rent property whether you have moral objections or not. I earn my money

runawaybishop · 10-08-2020 2:10pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

You will be in breach of a tenant's right to peaceful enjoyment of their home- if you do this. Tenants have successfully argued to the RTB that an annual check should be sufficient and any landlords who decide to inspect more frequently are impinging on tenant's rights. There has to be a balance- the deck of cards are stacked in favour of tenants however.

Didn't the rtb nail a landlord after a tenant wrecked the place by stating he should have inspected more than once every 4 months so he was partially to blame?

The_Conductor · 10-08-2020 4:09pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

Didn't the rtb nail a landlord after a tenant wrecked the place by stating he should have inspected more than once every 4 months so he was partially to blame?

And they awarded another tenant 6k for 'unwarranted intrusion' when the landlord inspected the property 3 times during the first 6 months of a tenancy.

Does not compute.

Can A tenant change a hob without telling landlord?

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