What is the deal with the Banning Conversion Therapy in Ireland campaign?

Sheeps · 14-04-2021 12:35pm #1

There have been many posts lately on social media about a campaign to ban conversion therapy and there are naturally plenty of people expressing their outrage that it is legal in Ireland. It would seem to be the latest big social issue facing this country and it has universal political support across the Dáil. The "Prohibition of Conversion Therapies Bill 2018" is currently in its' third stage of the Oireachtas and the bill would effectively outlaw the practice.

There isn't really anyone calling for this to be a protected practice. The only people who are really pushing this and showing their support are political parties. The outrage generated by these posts from people in response to the campaign seems to be based around at the fact that it's legal in Ireland rather than actual instances where conversion therapy has occurred. There are plenty of people campaigning making posts responding to quotes of arguments, never accredited to anyone, made by hypothetical advocates of conversion therapy or people against their campaign.

What is the deal with this nonsense? Is this just a branding exercise for political parties or is there some legitimate reason for this campaign? Does this stuff actually happen in Ireland, or is this "conversion therapy" just a disguise trying to outlaw some other practice that falls within a grey area of what could be perceived in a court as being a "conversion therapy", such as therapists or doctors not prescribing puberty blockers to children?

Donald Trump · 14-04-2021 1:14pm

The rugby lads will be going mad.

Two potential points missed after every try

Monkey arris · 14-04-2021 3:32pm

I suppose it's like them putting through that nobody could own a nuclear weapon or what ever that one was. Good to have the conversion therapy lunacy banned.

Sonics2k · 14-04-2021 4:39pm

It's simple really, it's an incredibly dangerous practice and has been shown to have severe impact on the mental health of young LGBT people, including links to an increase in suicide.

Even across the US of all places they're bringing in more and more regulations and even bans on it.

Sheeps · 14-04-2021 4:54pm

Sonics2k wrote: »

It's simple really, it's an incredibly dangerous practice and has been shown to have severe impact on the mental health of young LGBT people, including links to an increase in suicide.

Even across the US of all places they're bringing in more and more regulations and even bans on it.

I'm not arguing the merits of conversion therapy. I'm asking what is this a reaction to? The simple fact that it is legal is irrelevant if it doesn't happen here. Cannibalism is legal in Ireland, yet there isn't an urgent rush to outlaw it, because it doesn't actually happen.

Is it about making a statement? Is there some real risk of someone setting up a conversion therapy practice in Ireland? It just seems like a non-issue.

Gradius · 14-04-2021 5:05pm

More emperor's new clothes.

"Gravity isn't real" is the proclaimation, popularise it through public media, putting paramount emphasis on the attachment of emotion, then sit back as the lowest of foreheads take your proclaimation and run the campaign for you.

Later, add an invisible smock to the emperor's repertoire to gain support with the indoctrinated.

In a world where "love island" and twitter exist, you can convince many people of anything. Absolutely anything.

biko · 14-04-2021 6:39pm

Had to google it, I didn't even know there was such a thing.

Is the individual forced to undergo this therapy?

Can it be used to ban children from transitioning to other gender?

Quantum Erasure · 14-04-2021 7:21pm

I think there was controversy in Canada when they were bringing this in, something to do with the wording of the act and counselling of trans kids, JK Rowling tweeted something about it at the time...

Anyway the pdf of the Irish act can be found here
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2018/39/?tab=bill-text

In this Act—
“conversion therapy”—
(a) means any practice or treatment by any person that seeks to change, suppress
and, or eliminate a person’s sexual orientation, gender identity and, or gender
expression; and
(b) does not include any practice or treatment, which does not seek to change a
person’s sexual orientation, gender identity and, or gender expression, or
which—
(i) provides assistance to an individual undergoing a gender transition; or
(ii) provides acceptance, support and understanding of a person, or a
facilitation of a person’s coping, social support and identity exploration
and development, including sexual orientation-neutral interventions;

Sheeps · 14-04-2021 7:32pm

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

I think there was controversy in Canada when they were bringing this in, something to do with the wording of the act and counselling of trans kids, JK Rowling tweeted something about it at the time...

Anyway the pdf of the Irish act can be found here
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2018/39/?tab=bill-text

How do you "eliminate" a person’s sexual orientation, gender identity and, or gender expression?

Quantum Erasure · 14-04-2021 7:33pm

Sheeps wrote: »

How do you "eliminate" a person’s sexual orientation, gender identity and, or gender expression?

Conversion therapy, although results may vary....

14-04-2021 7:46pm

Is this the St. George and the Dragon fable? After slaying the dragon of marriage equality, new dragons must be found and vanquished. After a while everything starts to look like a dragon.

There are professional activists whose livelihoods depend on there being a big problem that they must be paid to solve.

14-04-2021 7:55pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is this the St. George and the Dragon fable? After slaying the dragon of marriage equality, new dragons must be found and vanquished. After a while everything starts to look like a dragon.

There are professional activists whose livelihoods depend on there being a big problem that they must be paid to solve.

It's an issue that's been there for years... I would say it's more a case of banning ****ty parents from doing terrible things to their kids.

Donald Trump · 14-04-2021 8:05pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Is this the St. George and the Dragon fable? After slaying the dragon of marriage equality, new dragons must be found and vanquished. After a while everything starts to look like a dragon.

There are professional activists whose livelihoods depend on there being a big problem that they must be paid to solve.

A different George I think

Overheal · 14-04-2021 8:11pm

biko wrote: »

Had to google it, I didn't even know there was such a thing.

Is the individual forced to undergo this therapy?

Can it be used to ban children from transitioning to other gender?

Very much a thing in the US and, given the era we’re finding ourselves in where there seems to be a growth in popular far right thinking, not unthinkable to believe it will be exported/imported. Used in other countries too naturally. The individual doesn’t necessarily need to be a volunteer to those who practice it afaik. Sure could see it employed against children with trans identity with or without their consent. Whether it’s a priority for the Oireachtas or not isn’t for me to say, could see why it wouldn’t though without examples in Ireland

15-04-2021 12:08am

They probably don't call it "conversion therapy", but it stands to reason that if people think sexuality is a choice or a personality trait, it could be changed.

This article seems to confirm that: apparently there was an electro-shock therapy used in the north in the 1970s called aversion therapy (negative conditioning, as the psychologists say), and a Roman Catholic group has organised meetings in recent years involving some kind of prayer/support group for gay people to, I don't know what, pray it away?

I'd be very surprised if gay men and women in Ireland didn't experience some kind of religious intervention 30 or 40 years ago, intending to reform them, but I'm speculating there.

paw patrol · 15-04-2021 9:51am

Sonics2k wrote: »

It's simple really, it's an incredibly dangerous practice and has been shown to have severe impact on the mental health of young LGBT people, including links to an increase in suicide.

Even across the US of all places they're bringing in more and more regulations and even bans on it.

so what though...if people voluntarily want to give it a shot
why shouldn't they?

The LBGT lobby has no bother with young people lobbing their cocks off and injecting themselves with life altering hormones into their bodies but somehow balk at the notion that somebody may want therapy to leave their club.
Both have severe impacts. yet one is deemed acceptable and one not.
odd that.

Gwen Cooper · 15-04-2021 10:03am

paw patrol wrote: »

so what though...if people voluntarily want to give it a shot
why shouldn't they?

The LBGT lobby has no bother with young people lobbing their cocks off and injecting themselves with life altering hormones into their bodies but somehow balk at the notion that somebody may want therapy to leave their club.
Both have severe impacts. yet one is deemed acceptable and one not.
odd that.

They very rarely go for it because they "voluntarily want to give it a shot". Usually it's either the church or their parents convincing them that it's the only way.

Plus, since you decided to compare conversion therapy to hormone therapy, aside from the fact that HT is, unlike conversion therapy, a legitimate medical treatment, you should also know that before a trans person gets access to that, they usually have to go through numerous assessments with medical professionals to confirm that this really will be the best course of action for them. That doesn't happen with conversion therapy, which is usually very hush-hush.

15-04-2021 10:28am

paw patrol wrote: »

so what though...if people voluntarily want to give it a shot
why shouldn't they?

Somehow I suspect you'd change your tune if there had been any attempt by gay-rights groups to intervene to reform young people into being gay.

jam_mac_jam · 15-04-2021 10:31am

Conversion therapy is obviously horrible but I don't think it's an issue in Ireland.

Sounds more like us importing the politics and problems of the US rather than worrying about our own problems.

Also while I don't agree with conversion therapy where do you draw the line. Are you allowed to seek therapy as an adult for sexual interests that you don't want to have?

I wonder about the logic of legalisation for every little thing. But yes obviously no therapy that is not voluntary should be carried out.

paw patrol · 15-04-2021 10:34am

Gwen Cooper wrote: »

They very rarely go for it because they "voluntarily want to give it a shot". Usually it's either the church or their parents convincing them that it's the only way.

Plus, since you decided to compare conversion therapy to hormone therapy, aside from the fact that HT is, unlike conversion therapy, a legitimate medical treatment, you should also know that before a trans person gets access to that, they usually have to go through numerous assessments with medical professionals to confirm that this really will be the best course of action for them. That doesn't happen with conversion therapy, which is usually very hush-hush.

I was very clear that it had to be voluntary. The rest of your post is really arguing about something i didn't say.

one point - What is legitimate and what isn't legitimate changes with the seasons and you know that anyway. I'm not sure saying something is legit means its' its good and proper.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Somehow I suspect you'd change your tune if there had been any attempt by gay-rights groups to intervene to reform young people into being gay.

No need to suspect anything anymore . the answer is yes I would.

Gay people are people, I treat them as I would all others but not so much love for the LGBT lobby. Huge difference.

The cornerstone of my point was "voluntary" . That was clear.

Salvation Tambourine · 15-04-2021 10:44am

Does this make it illegal for a professional (doctor, therapist etc) to recommend that someone does not go through with a gender change?

I don't fully understand what is being said in the bill. The bold bit seems to imply that they must only facilitate the process in a supportive way? I could be wrong though

conversion therapy”—
(a) means any practice or treatment by any person that seeks to change, suppress
and, or eliminate a person’s sexual orientation, gender identity and, or gender
expression; and
(b) does not include any practice or treatment, which does not seek to change a
person’s sexual orientation, gender identity and, or gender expression, or
which—
(i) provides assistance to an individual undergoing a gender transition; or
(ii) provides acceptance, support and understanding of a person, or a
facilitation of a person’s coping, social support and identity exploration
and development, including sexual orientation-neutral interventions;

15-04-2021 10:58am

Nokotan wrote: »

Does this make it illegal for a professional (doctor, therapist etc) to recommend that someone does not go through with a gender change?

I don't fully understand what is being said in the bill. The bold bit seems to imply that they must only facilitate the process in a supportive way? I could be wrong though

Conversion therapy does not work and is more likely to cause harm. Just because a medical professional might try it does not make it any more okay.

Salvation Tambourine · 15-04-2021 11:06am

Deleted User wrote: »

Conversion therapy does not work and is more likely to cause harm. Just because a medical professional might try it does not make it any more okay.

That's not what I was querying. The traditional understanding of conversion therapy, where someone's sexuality and identity is suppressed as it's seen as a bad thing does not work and shouldn't be used.

Conversion therapy in this bill seems to suggest that it may be illegal to not be fully supportive or facilitate someone's desire to change their gender from the quoted section below from the bill. Like I said, I could be misunderstanding what it means but it looks less straightforward than what most would assume conversion therapy is.

provides acceptance, support and understanding of a person, or a
facilitation of a person’s coping, social support and identity exploration
and development, including sexual orientation-neutral interventions

Gwen Cooper · 15-04-2021 11:19am

Nokotan wrote: »

That's not what I was querying. The traditional understanding of conversion therapy, where someone's sexuality and identity is suppressed as it's seen as a bad thing does not work and shouldn't be used.

Conversion therapy in this bill seems to suggest that it may be illegal to not be fully supportive or facilitate someone's desire to change their gender from the quoted section below from the bill. Like I said, I could be misunderstanding what it means but it looks less straightforward than what most would assume conversion therapy is.

That bit you quote is from the interpretation part of the bill, where they explain what means what. This is how they explain what is or isn't conversion therapy:

conversion therapy”—
(a) means any practice or treatment by any person that seeks to change, suppress
and, or eliminate a person’s sexual orientation, gender identity and, or gender
expression; and
(b) does not include any practice or treatment, which does not seek to change a
person’s sexual orientation, gender identity and, or gender expression, or
which—
(i) provides assistance to an individual undergoing a gender transition; or
(ii) provides acceptance, support and understanding of a person, or a
facilitation of a person’s coping, social support and identity exploration
and development, including sexual orientation-neutral interventions;

So if we break it down:

Conversion therapy means any practice or treatment by any person that seeks to change, suppress and, or eliminate a person’s sexual orientation, gender identity and, or gender expression.

Conversion therapy does not include any practice or treatment, which does not seek to change a person’s sexual orientation, gender identity and, or gender expression, or which provides assistance to an individual undergoing a gender transition or provides acceptance, support and understanding of a person, or a
facilitation of a person’s coping, social support and identity exploration
and development, including sexual orientation-neutral interventions.

So basically they are explaining that conversion therapy is looking to change/suppress/eliminate someone's sexual orientation or gender identity/expression.

Conversion therapy isn't something that supports someone's sexual orientation or gender identity/expression.

Hope that makes sense.

Salvation Tambourine · 15-04-2021 11:24am

Gwen Cooper wrote: »

So basically they are explaining that conversion therapy is looking to change/suppress/eliminate someone's sexual orientation or gender identity/expression.

Conversion therapy isn't something that supports someone's sexual orientation or gender identity/expression.

Hope that makes sense.

Yeah, that helps, cheers.

Gradius · 15-04-2021 2:04pm

"I believed I was an Ostrich, therefore I was an Ostrich; One Humanoids Story of Overcoming Reality, Plus More Fairy Tales."

"Fiction at its finest, 5 out of 5" Gardeners Compendium

"I couldn't pick it up," Darwinist Daily

"Didn't make any sense, loved it" Plebeian Gazette

Gentlemanne · 15-04-2021 2:25pm

The amount of cognitive dissonance in here in only two pages is incredible -

"conversion therapy not a real problem, there shouldn't be any legislation like this"
simultaneously
"trans healthcare is an issue, I think the current laws should be changed"

Gradius · 15-04-2021 2:34pm

Gentlemanne wrote: »

The amount of cognitive dissonance in here in only two pages is incredible -

"conversion therapy not a real problem, there shouldn't be any legislation like this"
simultaneously
"trans healthcare is an issue, I think the current laws should be changed"

That's the up-is-down of this entire fictional universe. Contradictions left and right, you're a bee if you want to be, but not a wasp, because reality is a buffet from which I pick and choose.

Gwen Cooper · 15-04-2021 2:49pm

Gradius wrote: »

That's the up-is-down of this entire fictional universe. Contradictions left and right, you're a bee if you want to be, but not a wasp, because reality is a buffet from which I pick and choose.

You know, you just just say that you don't understand gender identity and ask questions instead of just dropping hints and hoping that someone will explain it to you.

Gradius · 15-04-2021 2:53pm

Gwen Cooper wrote: »

You know, you just just say that you don't understand gender identity and ask questions instead of just dropping hints and hoping that someone will explain it to you.

Allowing some child-like intellect, the type required for fantasy, to attempt an explanation of the impossible would be patronising of me.

The loch Ness monster has more reality attached to it.

Gwen Cooper · 15-04-2021 3:01pm

Gradius wrote: »

Allowing some child-like intellect, the type required for fantasy, to attempt an explanation of the impossible would be patronising of me.

Oh yes, my apologies, I forgot that you're more intelligent than any of us lowly peasants here.

Gradius wrote: »

The loch Ness monster has more reality attached to it.

I see. And how did you come to this conclusion? Based on an intensive research into both gender issues and the Loch Ness Monster, I hope?

Gradius · 15-04-2021 3:09pm

Gwen Cooper wrote: »

Oh yes, my apologies, I forgot that you're more intelligent than any of us lowly peasants here.

I see. And how did you come to this conclusion? Based on an intensive research into both gender issues and the Loch Ness Monster, I hope?

The same way I came to the conclusion that shoes go on your feet. It's self-evident.

The loch Ness monster has some vague semblance of feasibility because of certain realities like the prior existence of dinosaurs.

Believing you are a dinosaur has no basis in reality. You can read all about other crack-pots believing they are dinosaurs,
you can promote it, you can legislate for humans being dinosaurs, you can create entire educational programs about humans being dinosaurs, but it's all make-believe at the end of the day.

When your position begins with "I believe" and ends on "because I believe", youre in a self-fulfilling bubble of fantasy.

Gwen Cooper · 15-04-2021 3:37pm

Gradius wrote: »

The same way I came to the conclusion that shoes go on your feet. It's self-evident.

Yes, if you were seeing shoes for the first time ever without any prior knowledge of footwear or its purpose, I believe that you'd eventually come to the conclusion of where they go and what they're for. However, unless you grew up in some highly traumatizing circumstances, you were introduced to shoes at a very early age and were taught how they work. So saying that you came to the conclusion that Nessie is more based in reality than gender identity issue "the same way I came to the conclusion that shoes go on your feet" is pretty much just you admitting that you were taught to think that.

Gradius wrote: »

The loch Ness monster has some vague semblance of feasibility because of certain realities like the prior existence of dinosaurs.

For this argument to be accepted, we would have to assume that a long time ago, someone saw a dinosaur in the lake, despite the fact that the dinosaurs were long (and I mean really, really long) dead by the time humans walked this Earth. Extremely unlikely, mate.

Also, science has looked into the Nessie thing and they didn't find anything supporting that a giant monster was ever living in that lake. Unlike, you know, the many scientists who looked into the gender identity and have actual legitimate, widely-accepted, peer-reviewed studies published, proving that it's a real thing.

Gradius wrote: »

Believing you are a dinosaur has no basis in reality. You can read all about other crack-pots believing they are dinosaurs,
you can promote it, you can legislate for humans being dinosaurs, you can create entire educational programs about humans being dinosaurs, but it's all make-believe at the end of the day.

Aha, we finally agree on something! Yes, people thinking that they are not only an entirely different species, but also a whole different animal class, that's bad and I'd recommend consulting a medical professional.

Gradius · 15-04-2021 3:43pm

Gwen Cooper wrote: »

Yes, if you were seeing shoes for the first time ever without any prior knowledge of footwear or its purpose, I believe that you'd eventually come to the conclusion of where they go and what they're for. However, unless you grew up in some highly traumatizing circumstances, you were introduced to shoes at a very early age and were taught how they work. So saying that you came to the conclusion that Nessie is more based in reality than gender identity issue "the same way I came to the conclusion that shoes go on your feet" is pretty much just you admitting that you were taught to think that.

For this argument to be accepted, we would have to assume that a long time ago, someone saw a dinosaur in the lake, despite the fact that the dinosaurs were long (and I mean really, really long) dead by the time humans walked this Earth. Extremely unlikely, mate.

Also, science has looked into the Nessie thing and they didn't find anything supporting that a giant monster was ever living in that lake. Unlike, you know, the many scientists who looked into the gender identity and have actual legitimate, widely-accepted, peer-reviewed studies published, proving that it's a real thing.

Aha, we finally agree on something! Yes, people thinking that they are not only an entirely different species, but also a whole different animal class, that's bad and I'd recommend consulting a medical professional.

That's some mountain of spurious shyte there.

Okay, let's really push you into the corner:

The observable reality: I look like a black man, have a penis, 2 arms and two legs, can be biochemically and anatomically tested to scientifically prove I am a man.

What I believe: I am an Asian woman with only 3 limbs.

Now, do you believe I am that Asian amputee woman?

Overheal · 15-04-2021 3:46pm

Gradius wrote: »

The same way I came to the conclusion that shoes go on your feet. It's self-evident.

It is?

Cant imagine if we took some sneakers to a tribe in the Amazon or somewhere that they’d for-sure figure out what they were for. You’ve reminded me of this stunt Burger King did years ago, feeding burgers to people who had never even seen a burger before (and evidently not even a sandwich) most of whom had no clue how to hold or eat one. Not everything is as self evident as cultural conditioning would have us believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP5pWBz8zyo

Gradius · 15-04-2021 3:51pm

Overheal wrote: »

It is?

Cant imagine if we took some sneakers to a tribe in the Amazon or somewhere that they’d for-sure figure out what they were for. You’ve reminded me of this stunt Burger King did years ago, feeding burgers to people who had never even seen a burger before (and evidently not even a sandwich) Not everything is as self evident as cultural conditioning would have us believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP5pWBz8zyo

"Can't imagine...", yet you believe wholesale in pure imagination.

I certainly can believe in cultural conditioning, however, because there's no other explanation for supposed adults to believe in fantasy.

Gwen Cooper · 15-04-2021 3:54pm

Gradius wrote: »

That's some mountain of spurious shyte there.

Okay, let's really push you into the corner:

The observable reality: I look like a black man, have a penis, 2 arms and two legs, can be biochemically and anatomically tested to scientifically prove I am a man.

What I believe: I am an Asian woman with only 3 limbs.

Now, do you believe I am that Asian amputee woman?

"Let's really push you into the corner", they said and proceeded to come up with a nonsensical scenario that only slightly touches the gender issue.

If you were born as a man and you come out as transgender, then yes, I will absolutely accept you as a woman, will use your preferred pronouns, and will support you in your transition.

Trying to identify as a different race and coming up with a fictional disability are not part of gender identity, and you know it.

I suppose you couldn't just say "I look like a black man, have a penis, 2 arms and two legs, can be biochemically and anatomically tested to scientifically prove I am a man. What I believe: I am a woman. Now, do you believe that I am a woman?", because you know yourself what the answer would be. You had to try to come up with something that never happens in society, just to justify your own transphobia.

Gradius · 15-04-2021 3:56pm

Gwen Cooper wrote: »

"Let's really push you into the corner", they said and proceeded to come up with a nonsensical scenario that only slightly touches the gender issue.

If you were born as a man and you come out as transgender, then yes, I will absolutely accept you as a woman, will use your preferred pronouns, and will support you in your transition.

Trying to identify as a different race and coming up with a fictional disability are not part of gender identity, and you know it.

I suppose you couldn't just say "I look like a black man, have a penis, 2 arms and two legs, can be biochemically and anatomically tested to scientifically prove I am a man. What I believe: I am a woman. Now, do you believe that I am a woman?", because you know yourself what the answer would be. You had to try to come up with something that never happens in society, just to justify your own transphobia.

Some waffle there to avoid the obvious.

Okay. I am observably, scientifically, a man.

I believe I am a woman, in complete contradiction to the above.

So, do you believe I am a woman or not?

Gwen Cooper · 15-04-2021 3:58pm

Gradius wrote: »

Some waffle there to avoid the obvious.

Okay. I am observably, scientifically, a man.

I believe I am a woman, in complete contradiction to the above.

So, do you believe I am a woman or not?

If you read my last post one more time, you'll find that I already gave you an answer to that one.

Gradius · 15-04-2021 4:01pm

Gwen Cooper wrote: »

If you read my last post one more time, you'll find that I already gave you an answer to that one.

Sure a straighter answer wouldn't do any harm then, would it?

Yes, you believe I'm a woman, or no, you believe that I am not?

growleaves · 15-04-2021 4:02pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

They probably don't call it "conversion therapy", but it stands to reason that if people think sexuality is a choice or a personality trait, it could be changed.

This article seems to confirm that: apparently there was an electro-shock therapy used in the north in the 1970s called aversion therapy (negative conditioning, as the psychologists say), and a Roman Catholic group has organised meetings in recent years involving some kind of prayer/support group for gay people to, I don't know what, pray it away?

I'd be very surprised if gay men and women in Ireland didn't experience some kind of religious intervention 30 or 40 years ago, intending to reform them, but I'm speculating there.

I'm extremely sceptical of any sort of dodgeball "conversion therapy" but becoming religious and choosing a life of celibacy is of course possible for anyone who is motivated to do that - whatever their identity, orientation or desires.

Gwen Cooper · 15-04-2021 4:02pm

Gradius wrote: »

Sure a straighter answer wouldn't do any harm then, would it?

Yes, you believe I'm a woman, or no, you believe that I am not?

Sorry, I keep forgetting about your reading comprehension issues.

Yes, Gradius. I will believe that you are a woman.

mohawk · 15-04-2021 4:05pm

biko wrote: »

Can it be used to ban children from transitioning to other gender?

Going on what has occurred in Canada and Australia it could have opposite effect. Parents could be forced to affirm instead of waiting to see if the gender Dysphoria persists past puberty.

Gradius · 15-04-2021 4:13pm

Gwen Cooper wrote: »

Sorry, I keep forgetting about your reading comprehension issues.

Yes, Gradius. I will believe that you are a woman.

So, to draw out the inevitable, you can

1) disregard your senses (eyes, ears)

2) disregard irrefutable science, biochemistry, anatomy and so on

But you'll willingly believe whatever I say, even when all concrete evidence points to the opposite.

To extend that belief system, if I put an empty plate in front of you, and told you I believe a sandwich is there, despite you not seeing it, despite you not smelling it, despite you not being able to touch it, you'd believe me.

Fairy tales for adults.

Make no mistake, it's not simply one element of fantasy at play here, as I said before. There's a whole universe of fiction going around. The emperor's new clothes, entire groups of people "believing" the unbelievable, hysteria.

Overheal · 15-04-2021 4:16pm

Gradius wrote: »

So, to draw out the inevitable, you can

1) disregard your senses (eyes, ears)

2) disregard irrefutable science, biochemistry, anatomy and so on

But you'll willingly believe whatever I say, even when all concrete evidence points to the opposite.

To extend that belief system, if I put an empty plate in front of you, and told you I believe a sandwich is there, despite you not seeing it, despite you not smelling it, despite you not being able to touch it, you'd believe me.

Fairy tales for adults.

Make no mistake, it's not simply one element of fantasy at play here, as I said before. There's a whole universe of fiction going around. The emperor's new clothes, entire groups of people "believing" the unbelievable, hysteria.

Imagining a sandwich in front of you is an odd parable for an individuals right to self determination.

Baggly · 15-04-2021 4:17pm

Gradius wrote: »

"I believed I was an Ostrich, therefore I was an Ostrich; One Humanoids Story of Overcoming Reality, Plus More Fairy Tales."

"Fiction at its finest, 5 out of 5" Gardeners Compendium

"I couldn't pick it up," Darwinist Daily

"Didn't make any sense, loved it" Plebeian Gazette

Gradius wrote: »

That's the up-is-down of this entire fictional universe. Contradictions left and right, you're a bee if you want to be, but not a wasp, because reality is a buffet from which I pick and choose.

Gradius wrote: »

Allowing some child-like intellect, the type required for fantasy, to attempt an explanation of the impossible would be patronising of me.

The loch Ness monster has more reality attached to it.

Gradius wrote: »

The same way I came to the conclusion that shoes go on your feet. It's self-evident.

The loch Ness monster has some vague semblance of feasibility because of certain realities like the prior existence of dinosaurs.

Believing you are a dinosaur has no basis in reality. You can read all about other crack-pots believing they are dinosaurs,
you can promote it, you can legislate for humans being dinosaurs, you can create entire educational programs about humans being dinosaurs, but it's all make-believe at the end of the day.

When your position begins with "I believe" and ends on "because I believe", youre in a self-fulfilling bubble of fantasy.

Gradius wrote: »

That's some mountain of spurious shyte there.

Okay, let's really push you into the corner:

The observable reality: I look like a black man, have a penis, 2 arms and two legs, can be biochemically and anatomically tested to scientifically prove I am a man.

What I believe: I am an Asian woman with only 3 limbs.

Now, do you believe I am that Asian amputee woman?

Gradius wrote: »

Some waffle there to avoid the obvious.

Okay. I am observably, scientifically, a man.

I believe I am a woman, in complete contradiction to the above.

So, do you believe I am a woman or not?

Gradius wrote: »

Sure a straighter answer wouldn't do any harm then, would it?

Yes, you believe I'm a woman, or no, you believe that I am not?

Mod

Dont post in this thread again. Lets have a chat via PM about acceptable posting.

Baggly · 15-04-2021 4:24pm

paw patrol wrote: »

so what though...if people voluntarily want to give it a shot
why shouldn't they?

The LBGT lobby has no bother with young people lobbing their cocks off and injecting themselves with life altering hormones into their bodies but somehow balk at the notion that somebody may want therapy to leave their club.
Both have severe impacts. yet one is deemed acceptable and one not.
odd that.

Mod

Dont post in this thread again.

Gradius · 15-04-2021 4:25pm

Baggly wrote: »

Mod

Dont post in this thread again. Lets have a chat via PM about acceptable posting.

I've sent you a pm, so let's go.

Mod

Week off.

Gwen Cooper · 15-04-2021 4:25pm

Gradius wrote: »

So, to draw out the inevitable, you can

1) disregard your senses (eyes, ears)

2) disregard irrefutable science, biochemistry, anatomy and so on

But you'll willingly believe whatever I say, even when all concrete evidence points to the opposite.

*angrily accuses others for disregarding irrefutable science while disregarding irrefutable science*

So, since I'm so very wrong and you're absolutely correct in everything, I'm sure you can link me to some studies that support your opinion, right? You know, just so we're clear about who's disregarding science here.

jam_mac_jam · 15-04-2021 6:55pm

Reading some stuff about it during the day and it does seem to be a thing in Ireland. Which I am surprised by. So maybe it does need to be banned.

ThunbergsAreGo · 16-04-2021 6:59pm

Sheeps wrote: »

I'm not arguing the merits of conversion therapy. I'm asking what is this a reaction to? The simple fact that it is legal is irrelevant if it doesn't happen here. Cannibalism is legal in Ireland, yet there isn't an urgent rush to outlaw it, because it doesn't actually happen.

Is it about making a statement? Is there some real risk of someone setting up a conversion therapy practice in Ireland? It just seems like a non-issue.

It lets parties say they have done something progressive, which has very little impact on most peoples lives while screwing over most in the state.

What is the deal with the Banning Conversion Therapy in Ireland campaign?

Comments