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National Synodal Assembly to be held within five years

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  • 11-03-2021 11:50am
    #1
    Posts: 0


    Background
    Since the 2018 Ordinary General Assembly of Bishops in Rome on the theme of young people, the faith and vocational discernment, we have been giving active consideration to calling a National Synodal Assembly for the Church in Ireland. Conversations at local, regional and national level have informed the work of a subgroup of the Episcopal Conference which was established to explore the idea further. During the 2020 Winter General Meeting of the Bishops’ Conference we decided to proceed along a synodal pathway, and, since then, we have been assisted and greatly encouraged by Cardinal Grech and Sr. Natalie Becquart, of the General Secretariat for the Synod of Bishops, who addressed us on 3 February last, see https://www.catholicbishops.ie/2021/03/04/address-of-cardinal-mario-grech-to-the-bishops-of-ireland-on-synodality-2/

    Context: Challenges and Hopes
    We are mindful of the challenges and opportunities that provide a context for a synodal pathway leading to a National Synod at this pivotal time for the Church.
    Solidarity, Outreach to the Peripheries and the Promise of a New Pentecost
    Pope Francis’ Apostolic Exhortation The Joy of the Gospel (Evangelii Gaudium), together with his encyclicals, Laudato Si’ and Fratelli Tutti offer a challenging framework for the Church of today and tomorrow – calling us in particular to solidarity with the poor, the excluded and those “on the peripheries”, who yearn for the Good News. This calling also includes initiatives of social friendship in favour of our sisters and brothers in other continents.
    Speaking at the end of the World Meeting of Families in Phoenix Park, Dublin 2018, Pope Francis encouraged the people of Ireland to be open to the work of the Holy Spirit:
    “who constantly breathes new life into our world, into our hearts, into our families, into our homes and parishes. Each new day in the life of our families, and each new generation, brings the promise of a new Pentecost, a domestic Pentecost, a fresh outpouring of the Spirit, the Paraclete, whom Jesus sends as our Advocate, our Consoler and indeed our Encourager. How much our world needs this encouragement that is God’s gift and promise!”

    Listening to what the Holy Spirit is saying to the Church in an Ireland faced with rapid transformation
    Secularisation of Society. A synodal pathway leading to a National Synod is inviting us to journey together in discernment of what the Holy Spirit is saying to the Church in Ireland at this time. We are acutely aware of the huge challenges to the faith over the past fifty years from the rapid transformation and secularisation of society in Ireland bringing with it a major decline in practice of the faith and in the number of vocations to the priesthood and the religious life.

    Shocking Revelations. Like so many others we are appalled by the findings in published Reports into institutional and clerical abuse; the recent shocking revelations about Mother and Baby homes in Ireland – north and south – have further reminded us of the deep trauma felt by so many in the Body of Christ and the need for inner healing and hope.

    The need to promote peace-making and a culture of welcome. One hundred years on from the partition of Ireland we also recognise the need for ongoing peace-making, the building of trust and reconciliation, and for a culture of welcome and integration for migrants and the many newcomers who have arrived to live on this island.

    Listening to the Cry for Transparency. We hear a cry for transparency, greater participation and accountability in the Church.

    Discovering the Family as “Domestic Church”. We see the tremendous potential for the support and renewal of faith within the family. The restrictions imposed by the Covid-19 pandemic prompted a new discovery of the family as the “domestic Church”.

    Connecting with Young People. We are alert to the need to connect with the energy and gifts of our young people, forming and enabling them to be missionaries to each other and inviting them to spread the Good News not only in Ireland but around the world that Christ is Alive!

    Honouring the Contribution of Women. While many women are very engaged in Church life in Ireland, we acknowledge the critical need to honour the contribution of women, to hear their deep concerns, to formally recognise their roles and articulate new models of co-responsibility and leadership involving all lay people – women and men. We are also aware that many people have left Church behind and in some cases feel ignored, excluded or forgotten – we need to hear their voices also.

    The Initial Phase – Prayer, Listening, Consultation, Discernment
    The initial two-year phase of embarking on the synodal pathway and leading, in time, to a National Synod, helpfully coincides with preparation for the 2022 Ordinary General Assembly of Bishops in Rome entitled, For a synodal Church: communion, participation and mission.
    We envisage the next two years as a period of prayer, listening and discernment, involving a nationwide consultative conversation on this theme. This will allow individuals and parishes, religious orders and associations as well as groups, movements and organisations both within the Church and in Irish society at large, to share their insights into the Church in Ireland – past, present and future. It will also include discussion and debate via related information sessions and educational programmes on the meaning and processes of synodality. We will research best practice in listening and synodal processes and assemblies at home and around the world.

    The Planning Phase – Preparation for a National Synodal Asembly
    The planning and preparation phase for a National Synodal Assembly will bring together and seek to implement the fruits and recommendations from the Initial Phase. It will, in particular, take account of the conclusions of the General Assembly in Rome in 2022, together with any Apostolic Exhortation by the Holy Father emerging from the General Assembly. The aim of this phase will be to design the particular form of our National Synod and prepare directly at local, regional and national level for the holding of the Synod.

    What is a Synod?
    The word “synod” evokes the image of “walking together on the way”. For the Church it is a time-honoured way of working out together the “navigation map” for the Church at particular times. Synodality is about the whole People of God helping each other listen to what the Holy Spirit is saying to the Church. Pope Francis emphasises that this is not simply a matter of discussion as in a parliamentary debate. Rather it is primarily a prayerful spiritual time of communitarian discernment. It is about finding the best ways for every baptized person to fulfil the Church’s mission of proclaiming to the world, God’s love and salvation in Jesus Christ.
    Pope Francis has emphasised that “it is precisely this path of synodality which God expects of the Church of the third millennium”. Synodality is at the heart of the pastoral conversion that Pope Francis emphasises in the Joy of the Gospel (Evangelii Gaudium).
    https://www.catholicbishops.ie/2021/03/10/statement-of-the-spring-2021-general-meeting-of-the-irish-catholic-bishops-conference/
    Big news, it has the potential, in my opinion, to be the most important Synod in several centuries. It will be interesting to see how the major issues and challenges are addressed.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    I expect it to be the usual Francis-scheming, with radical changes threatened, but instead a strategic agitation of two sets of rivals, Cardinal Burke neo-cons, and rich (and pastorally appalling Germans), which he will then feed little tidbits to keep them well behaved.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think what needs to be addressed is the role of the Church in schools. The current set up does not work for anyone. For all the moaning about "indoctrination" of students it is clear that the vast majority do not practice their religion, and cannot demonstrate even a rudimentary level of catechesis.

    In my opinion the church should summarily ditch the vast majority of schools on the state for a nominal rent or donation of the land the school buildings are on. The state would have great fun trying to run things.

    The church should maintain a small elite of dedicated catholic schools across the country, where parents, who want a genuine catholic education, can send their kids. Their should also be new hedge schools for religious education based in the local parish outside of regular school time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    I think what needs to be addressed is the role of the Church in schools. The current set up does not work for anyone. For all the moaning about "indoctrination" of students it is clear that the vast majority do not practice their religion, and cannot demonstrate even a rudimentary level of catechesis.

    In my opinion the church should summarily ditch the vast majority of schools on the state for a nominal rent or donation of the land the school buildings are on. The state would have great fun trying to run things.

    The church should maintain a small elite of dedicated catholic schools across the country, where parents, who want a genuine catholic education, can send their kids. Their should also be new hedge schools for religious education based in the local parish outside of regular school time.

    If the church isn't willing to pick up the tab now, where do you think this sudden splurge on maintaing elite schools would come from?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If the church isn't willing to pick up the tab now, where do you think this sudden splurge on maintaing elite schools would come from?

    Elite was a reference to their ethos and admissions, not necessarily facilities.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Elite was a reference to their ethos and admissions, not necessarily facilities.

    To attract elite admissions they would need suitable facilities, why and how would the church suddenly cough up the money cover this?


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    To attract elite admissions they would need suitable facilities, why and how would the church suddenly cough up the money cover this?

    The ethos of a genuine catholic education will attract the students whose parents want this for them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    The ethos of a genuine catholic education will attract the students whose parents want this for them.

    You seem to dodging the question. You said elite admissions. Now it's just admissions. How are they going to pay for anything? No state money for salaries or maintenance.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You seem to dodging the question. You said elite admissions. Now it's just admissions. How are they going to pay for anything? No state money for salaries or maintenance.

    lol Try reading my posts again.

    The 'elite' nature would be the ethos of the school, i.e a smaller number than present where there is a genuine catholic ethos for those who want that. Sure I thought the church was rolling in money :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    lol Try reading my posts again.

    The 'elite' nature would be the ethos of the school, i.e a smaller number than present where there is a genuine catholic ethos for those who want that. Sure I thought the church was rolling in money :rolleyes:

    So you are just going to ignore the admissions part of you plan now?
    Again how are they going to pay for it? No state money for salaries or maintenance.
    The church does have money, the problem is it only only goes in one direction. Hence the my question on funding that you keep dodging.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,120 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Whatever you think of ex loco's plan, nothing in it involves no state money for church schools. He suggests the church should withdraw from many of the schools that it currently runs or patronises, and concentrate its resources on delivering a distinctively Catholic education in the remaining schools, in a way designed to appeal to parents who particularly want that kind of education. This is entirely consistent with those schools continuing to be funded in the way they are funded now.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Whatever you think of ex loco's plan, nothing in it involves no state money for church schools. He suggests the church should withdraw from many of the schools that it currently runs or patronises, and concentrate its resources on delivering a distinctively Catholic education in the remaining schools, in a way designed to appeal to parents who particularly want that kind of education. This is entirely consistent with those schools continuing to be funded in the way they are funded now.
    Oh I fully expect the church to keep leeching off the state to provide its "elite" ethos education. Like I have already said, the money in the church only goes one way.
    I'm just curious why the above poster is unwilling to admit it or propose an alternate funding method. I suppose saying fee charging and so only for the rich doesn't sound very christian.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,120 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Oh I fully expect the church to keep leeching off the state to provide its "elite" ethos education. Like I have already said, the money in the church only goes one way.
    I'm just curious why the above poster is unwilling to admit it or propose an alternate funding method. I suppose saying fee charging and so only for the rich doesn't sound very christian.
    I don't see that ex loco needs to propose an alternate funding method; he is not suggesting anything which would require an alternate funding method.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I don't see that ex loco needs to propose an alternate funding method; he is not suggesting anything which would require an alternate funding method.

    Yes, this is correct.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,050 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    In my opinion the church should summarily ditch the vast majority of schools on the state for a nominal rent or donation of the land the school buildings are on. The state would have great fun trying to run things.

    The RCC has practically no role in the running of schools at present, apart from mandating a religion syllabus and carrying out inspections in relation to that.

    The church should maintain a small elite of dedicated catholic schools across the country, where parents, who want a genuine catholic education, can send their kids.

    Like they do already?

    Their should also be new hedge schools for religious education based in the local parish outside of regular school time.

    I fully agree that all religions should make their own local arrangements for religious education. ET schools facilitate this in the school after school hours, there is no reason why all schools cannot do the same.

    To attract elite admissions they would need suitable facilities, why and how would the church suddenly cough up the money cover this?

    They don't need to. They charge massive fees.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I don't see that ex loco needs to propose an alternate funding method; he is not suggesting anything which would require an alternate funding method.

    His model would need to be private or semi private so state funding alone wouldnt cover enough.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Yes, this is correct.

    That's clutching at straws, because you don't actually have a alternative.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    They don't need to. They charge massive fees.

    Oh I know that, and you know that, but some people are in denial


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That's clutching at straws, because you don't actually have a alternative.

    :confused:

    I think you are just looking for an argument at this stage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,120 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    His model would need to be private or semi private so state funding alone wouldnt cover enough.
    No, it wouldn't. His model is that the church should "ditch the vast majority" of the schools that it runs and "maintain" the small remainder as "dedicated catholic schools" offering "a genuine catholic education". Nothing in there about any change to funding arrangements.

    There might be good reasons for criticising or opposing such a plan. But the fixation in this thread on a spurious funding problem suggests that people haven't found them yet.
    That's clutching at straws, because you don't actually have a alternative.
    You have yet to explain why you think an alternative will be required. Why will the current funding mechanisms not suffice?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    No, it wouldn't. His model is that the church should "ditch the vast majority" of the schools that it runs and "maintain" the small remainder as "dedicated catholic schools" offering "a genuine catholic education". Nothing in there about any change to funding arrangements.

    There might be good reasons for criticising or opposing such a plan. But the fixation in this thread on a spurious funding problem suggests that people haven't found them yet.


    You have yet to explain why you think an alternative will be required. Why will the current funding mechanisms not suffice?

    If they want a choice in who they admit it is private or semi private. In either of those cases state funding isn't enough.
    So either his "elite ethos and admissions" is in name only or the money to support it has to come from somewhere.
    I don't understand what part of this is difficult for you.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,050 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    You have yet to explain why you think an alternative will be required. Why will the current funding mechanisms not suffice?

    The RCC is not allowed to exclude pupils on the grounds of religion while continuing to receive state funding for schools.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The RCC is not allowed to exclude pupils on the grounds of religion while continuing to receive state funding for schools.

    In many towns there are multiple primary and secondary schools. In my own town there are at least 6 primary and 5 secondary. Except for 2 small schools all are nominally catholic. What I am saying is that perhaps only one of each should be Catholic, but with a much more authentically catholic ethos. Parents who do not want this ethos would have five (or thereabouts) other options within a relatively small radius. People who do want this ethos will have a proper option.

    The state should increase funding and expand schools where the demand warrants it.

    Do you not think this is a better situation than what we have now?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    In many towns there are multiple primary and secondary schools. In my own town there are at least 6 primary and 5 secondary. Except for 2 small schools all are nominally catholic. What I am saying is that perhaps only one of each should be Catholic, but with a much more authentically catholic ethos. Parents who do not want this ethos would have five (or thereabouts) other options within a relatively small radius. People who do want this ethos will have a proper option.

    The state should increase funding and expand schools where the demand warrants it.

    Do you not think this is a better situation than what we have now?


    why should the state double pay for school places?


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,120 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The RCC is not allowed to exclude pupils on the grounds of religion while continuing to receive state funding for schools.
    I don't think they'd need to. In ex loco's plan a relatively small number of schools would offer an intensively Catholic education, and the great majority would offer a secular, or at any rate not distinctively Catholic, education. In that scenario I think the non-Catholic students would exclude themselves, because why would they choose an intensively Catholic education when other options are available?

    (And if they did choose an intensively Catholic education despite not being Catholic, I don't think the churchy schools would have any qualms about accepting them.)


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,120 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    why should the state double pay for school places?
    I don't see any proposal for double payment here. What ex loco is proposing is the same number of places overall, but fewer places in Catholic schools (because fewer Catholic schools) and more places in non-Catholic schools (because more non-Catholic schools).


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I don't think they'd need to. In ex loco's plan a relatively small number of schools would offer an intensively Catholic education, and the great majority would offer a secular, or at any rate not distinctively Catholic, education. In that scenario I think the non-Catholic students would exclude themselves, because why would they choose an intensively Catholic education when other options are available?

    (And if they did choose an intensively Catholic education despite not being Catholic, I don't think the churchy schools would have any qualms about accepting them.)

    Yes, exactly. I'm not sure why this is proving hard to grasp for some, it seemed relatively straightforward to me.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,722 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I don't think they'd need to. In ex loco's plan a relatively small number of schools would offer an intensively Catholic education, and the great majority would offer a secular, or at any rate not distinctively Catholic, education. In that scenario I think the non-Catholic students would exclude themselves, because why would they choose an intensively Catholic education when other options are available?

    I think the reasons parents pick any given school for their children are many and varied. Religious ethos is certainly one, others include academic reputation and standing in exam results tables, proximity, range and quality of facilities, reputation in sports, co-ed or single sex, whether siblings are going to the same school, whether friends of the pupil are going to the same school. Not to forget availability of places.
    (And if they did choose an intensively Catholic education despite not being Catholic, I don't think the churchy schools would have any qualms about accepting them.)

    I think the more important issue for a state funded school is whether a potentially exclusionary or preferential admissions policy should be allowed in the first instance. I would rather hope not and would hope that any state funded school should have an inclusive admissions policy first and foremost, regardless of the ethos.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,120 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    smacl wrote: »
    I think the reasons parents pick any given school for their children are many and varied. Religious ethos is certainly one, others include academic reputation and standing in exam results tables, proximity, range and quality of facilities, reputation in sports, co-ed or single sex, whether siblings are going to the same school, whether friends of the pupil are going to the same school. Not to forget availability of places.
    Oh, sure. But I think there's widespread recognition that there are far more placed in Catholic-church sponsored schools than is justified by parental demand, and that many people send their child to a Catholic school not because it is their preference, but because they have no practical alternative. Ex loco's plan would improve this situation, by signficantly increasing the number of places in non-Catholic schools. The objective is that people who ant places in non-Catholic schools would be better served, and that the remaining Catholic schools would cater more for people who want places in Catholic schools because they prefer a Catholic ethos.
    smacl wrote: »
    I think the more important issue for a state funded school is whether a potentially exclusionary or preferential admissions policy should be allowed in the first instance. I would rather hope not and would hope that any state funded school should have an inclusive admissions policy first and foremost, regardless of the ethos.
    Mmm. Would you apply that to the schools that at present serve minority communities. Should, say, a Jewish school be forbidden from preferencing Jewish applicants?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,722 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Mmm. Would you apply that to the schools that at present serve minority communities. Should, say, a Jewish school be forbidden from preferencing Jewish applicants?

    It's a tough one for sure, but on balance I'd say yes, this kind of preferential treatment on admissions for fully state funded schools should be forbidden. We've been through this recently in our ET secondary where we had to decide whether to prefer ET primary feeder schools in the admission policy. On the one hand, it was the parents of those ET primaries that were instrumental in building the ET secondary and it can seem desperately unfair that their place is taken by another child who's family had no such input. On the other hand, if you cherish inclusivity and equal opportunity for all, you have to accept that this isn't always going to work in your favour. My personal opinion is that any kind of exclusionary enrollment policy is an anathema to how we should run our publicly funded schools. We should not discriminate against children based on their creed, ability, ethnicity or background. Again from an ET perspective, diversity is something to be celebrated, not shunned by siloing kids of into groups with similar religious beliefs or cultural practises.

    I fully accept why others might think differently but fundamentally don't agree with them.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,120 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    smacl wrote: »
    It's a tough one for sure, but on balance I'd say yes, this kind of preferential treatment on admissions for fully state funded schools should be forbidden. We've been through this recently in our ET secondary where we had to decide whether to prefer ET primary feeder schools in the admission policy. On the one hand, it was the parents of those ET primaries that were instrumental in building the ET secondary and it can seem desperately unfair that their place is taken by another child who's family had no such input. On the other hand, if you cherish inclusivity and equal opportunity for all, you have to accept that this isn't always going to work in your favour. My personal opinion is that any kind of exclusionary enrollment policy is an anathema to how we should run our publicly funded schools. We should not discriminate against children based on their creed, ability, ethnicity or background. Again from an ET perspective, diversity is something to be celebrated, not shunned by siloing kids of into groups with similar religious beliefs or cultural practises.

    I fully accept why others might think differently but fundamentally don't agree with them.
    But there's a big difference between the decision made by the management of a particular school as to whether that school should operate a preferential admission policy on the basis of creed, sex, academic attainment or whatever, and a decision that is to apply to all schools — i.e., a decision that school managers should not be allowed to make this decision. "This school should not preference of the basis of gender, etc" is a very different matter from "no school should be allowed to preference on the basis of gender, etc".

    A couple of thoughts occur to me here. In no particular order:

    - If we adopt the rule you favour, minority communities will suffer, since they will be deprived of institutions that are significant to their community. In particular, Ireland will be come the first European country since 1945 to adopt a policy with the practical effect of forcing the closure of the country's Jewish schools. Is that really where we want to position ourselves?

    - If you favour diversity in education, so that parents actually have a meaningful choice of school types, then different admission policies have a significant role to play in fostering different school communities.

    - What does the research suggest about the correlation, if any, between diversity or homogeneity of school communities and educational outcomes? Shouldn't we at least ask ourselves that question before a decision to impose a particular kind of enrolment policy on all schools (or, to be fair, before a decision not to do so)? Or do we subordinate that question to what are essentially ideological considerations?

    - A point I've already made in this thread: ex loco's proposal doesn't involve the reduced number of Catholic schools operating a "Catholics only" admission policy and, if anything, it it is likely to reduce the incentive for them to adopt such a policy (because the pool of applicants will be overwhelmingly Catholic in any case).


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