Reincarnation

Asiaprod · 07-10-2006 1:40am #1

Thaedydal wrote:

Many of us were also raised to believe in the tooth fairy and Santa.

Well you see for those of us who believe in reincaration it is a return a renewal and finding this path this set of beliefs again.

Thaed, is reincarnation commonly accepted by Pagans, or would believers be in the minority?

scorplett · 07-10-2006 2:44am

asiaprod wrote:

Thaed, is reincarnation commonly accepted by Pagans, or would believers be in the minority?

Hope you dont mind too much If I answer this even though you have directed it at Thaed.
The majority of pagans would believe in reincarnation yes. There are many differing views on the mechanics of that but I believe that would be a whole new thread...
One of the primary concepts is that of the cycles of life, in the natural world that is the following and observing of the passing seasons or the 'wheel of the year', this is mirrored in the concept of life, death and rebirth.
Some Pagans believe there are limitless forms of and occasions of rebirth and some would hold something of the budhist view on reincarnation (ie karmic determination of the form of rebirth) Others, like myself would see the cycle as something of a straight line concept whereby the soul journeys through the ages and incarnations in order to learn all the mysteries it needs to and also that there is an element of choice in the matter of who how and when the resting soul is reborn and hence it can become a choice to end that cycle or renew it afresh.
There are however some pagans who do not believe in reincarnation to the mortal coil but believe the soul travels to the summerlands (heaven) or can remain in this world or the other planes of existance or even between the worlds.
Hope this answers your question?!?

Asiaprod · 07-10-2006 3:02am

scorplett wrote:

Hope you dont mind too much If I answer this even though you have directed it at Thaed.

Not at all, my quest is for knowledge and understanding and new friends. Everyone brings something to the table.

The majority of pagans would believe in reincarnation yes. There are many differing views on the mechanics of that but I believe that would be a whole new thread...

Would be very happy to make it so, just say the word.

Hope this answers your question?!?

My word, no. It just opened a whole new world to explore. Thank you, that was fascinating and informative. Strangely enough, I also view the cycle of birth/rebirth as "something of a straight line concept". For me it seems logical that progression should be a straight line concept as opposed to circular journey. The circle may well turn out to be a limitation.
Thaed, I would still appreciate your input.

Schuhart · 07-10-2006 10:20pm

I don't know if its of any interest in this context, I came across a mention on wikipedia of some crossover between Paganism and the introduction of Buddhism to the West in the shape of an individual by the name of Allan Bennett.

He seems to have been both a significant figure in bringing Buddhism to Britain, and at the same time known and active in Pagan circles.

skateing dragon · 07-10-2006 11:36pm

Yes the majority of Pagans do believe in Reincartion and i strongly believe in it.

My concept of it is when you have learnt what you were supposed to in this life or completed whatever task it is you were supposed to complete that you move on and become reincarnated.
Now if you had alot of bad karma in your past life you may have to repay it in your next life.

For eg. If you bullied someone in your past life(not name calling bullying lbut more serious bullying involving physical abuse and constant torment) that you may be bullied in the same way in your next life.

But if you had alot of good karma you may be reincarnated into the next Bill Gates or someone who achieves alot and leads a happy life.

I also believe that before you are reincarnated you get to choose your next mission in your next life or what you must learn in your next life before you can once again move on.
Once you have learnt all of lifes mysteries you will be (word has completely slipped my mind sorry) you will join the god and goddess and your spirit will remain there or you may become a guardian angel or something like that.

So i hope thats given you a few ideas of some beliefs(or at least mine) about reincarnation.

Asiaprod · 08-10-2006 1:43pm

So i hope thats given you a few ideas of some beliefs(or at least mine) about reincarnation.[/QUOTE]
Indeed it has, thank you. You mentioned that

"I also believe that before you are reincarnated you get to choose your next mission in your next life or what you must learn in your next life before you can once again move on."

Could you explain this to me a little, if its ok to do this. I find this interesting and have toyed with this idea myself.

Talliesin · 09-10-2006 10:03am

Personally, while I do believe in reincarnation (kinda, but I'll get into that kinda later if I have time) I've never found it seemed likely to me that people said to themselves "I think I'll be born into a impoverished family in an impoverished part of the world, be abandoned to my death as an infant and then promptly die again", yet this happens frequently in this world.

Asiaprod · 09-10-2006 12:23pm

Talliesin wrote:

I've never found it seemed likely to me that people said to themselves "I think I'll be born into a impoverished family in an impoverished part of the world, be abandoned to my death as an infant and then promptly die again", yet this happens frequently in this world.

True, but we might also be able to put that down to Karma, as in a good life, a bad life.

coffee_cake · 09-10-2006 1:29pm

Talliesin wrote:

I've never found it seemed likely to me that people said to themselves "I think I'll be born into a impoverished family in an impoverished part of the world, be abandoned to my death as an infant and then promptly die again", yet this happens frequently in this world.

I've never found the idea that we could choose what happens in our next life likely =/

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 09-10-2006 1:36pm

if we really do reincarnate then what happens when the world population keeps growing? who makes the new souls? .. what will happen if at some point there's a huge catastrophe and there are only 1-2 billion people living on the planet earth.. what will happen to the other 4 million souls who used to live here? will they go into limbo until suitable baby attire can be built on the planet below? will there be a sudden influx of 4 billion different types of beetle?

the idea just doesn't make sense.. even less sense than a carpenter being taken bodily into space.

coffee_cake · 09-10-2006 4:11pm

Mordeth wrote:

if we really do reincarnate then what happens when the world population keeps growing? who makes the new souls? .. what will happen if at some point there's a huge catastrophe and there are only 1-2 billion people living on the planet earth.. what will happen to the other 4 million souls who used to live here? will they go into limbo until suitable baby attire can be built on the planet below? will there be a sudden influx of 4 billion different types of beetle?

the idea just doesn't make sense.. even less sense than a carpenter being taken bodily into space.

Assuming that I believed souls existed in the first place,
why can't they come from the same place they were supposed to come from in the first place?

skateing dragon · 09-10-2006 5:31pm

No Problem Asiaprod

I dont believe that you get to pick oh im going to be such and such and im going to become famous and rich and happy. I believe you get to choose what you wish to accomplish or learn in your next life, not choose who you are going to be and what your whole life will be like.

I believe you get to choose something like My next mission will be to make a difference in the world. Now this could mean something from as big as ending a war to something like becoming a social worker.

Thats what i mean by choosing my mission in my next life. Not choosing who im going to be what im going to accomplish and where i will live as Talliesin stated. I think people just kind of misunderstood me.

No one can choose their exact path in life or what they will do. Every action has a reaction and an example of this is Karma.

If you take my mission in life example makeing a difference in the world, if i had alot of good karma i believe i would make a positive difference in the world like the ending war example etc. But if i had bad Karma because of my bad actions i would make a negative effect in the world like starting a war and makeing a bad difference/change in the world.

I believe you can choose your mission in life but it can turn out to be postitive or negative depending on our actions which lead to wether we have good or bad karma.

I hope this has kind of shown what i mean. If you have any other queries about my beliefs or whatever just pm me.

Schuhart · 09-10-2006 10:18pm

bluewolf wrote:

Assuming that I believed souls existed in the first place,
why can't they come from the same place they were supposed to come from in the first place?

Assuming, to pick a neutral term, Entities reincarnate, I suppose the question is really does this mean there has to be a fixed number of Entities at all time (given that there isn't).

With an ever increasing number of Entities, what you say could presumably square the numbers. But the question is presumably after the Black Death a fair number of Entities had to sit it out on the sidelines for a while, and how does that work.

To be honest, the notion of reincarnation of Entities does sound a little incredible. Recycling seems a sounder concept - but there always seems to be that need to belief that something defining this individuality survives.

Asiaprod · 10-10-2006 2:50am

Not wanting to get drawn into this as I am looking to understand others views on reincarnation, I see it as "Recycling", which raises the question is there a limited number of us entities, or are there other worlds out there. If you do the maths in relation to just planet Earth, they don't work out. And I have no idea, other than I will worry about that one later:)

bluewolf wrote:

I've never found the idea that we could choose what happens in our next life likely =/

For me nothing ventured nothing gained. I don't need proof, my desire is strong enough to carry the dream. If I am right, cool. I'm coming back as a doctor/surgeon:)

skateing dragon wrote:

I believe you get to choose something like My next mission will be to make a difference in the world. Now this could mean something from as big as ending a war to something like becoming a social worker.

Nice, thank you. Has helped me better understand. Will indeed keep in touch:)

coffee_cake · 10-10-2006 9:19am

Schuhart wrote:

Assuming, to pick a neutral term, Entities reincarnate, I suppose the question is really does this mean there has to be a fixed number of Entities at all time (given that there isn't).

With an ever increasing number of Entities, what you say could presumably square the numbers. But the question is presumably after the Black Death a fair number of Entities had to sit it out on the sidelines for a while, and how does that work.

There are plenty of animals aren't there? I don't know ...
heh, I don't tend to bother with the fine details, only a general idea of rebirth.

To be honest, the notion of reincarnation of Entities does sound a little incredible. Recycling seems a sounder concept - but there always seems to be that need to belief that something defining this individuality survives.

That's why buddhism tends towards rebirth instead which incorporates anatta - none of this individual permanent soul idea.

Schuhart · 10-10-2006 3:49pm

Asiaprod wrote:

Not wanting to get drawn into this

Next time you’re coming back as a chicken.:D

bluewolf wrote:

There are plenty of animals aren't there? I don't know ...
heh, I don't tend to bother with the fine details, only a general idea of rebirth.

If there if just recycling – all that constitutes the Entities being broken down into a gloop of some kind, from which may emerge other Entities, then there’s no problem as there is no need for any accounting for numbers. Three Entities die and are subsumed into the gloop. Out the other side pop five Entities, two Entities whatever. But that equally seems to put pay to any idea of these new Entities tracing any kind of meaningful link back to the source entities – so, for example, the idea of choosing a role for a subsequent life seems utterly irrelevant.

bluewolf wrote:

That's why buddhism tends towards rebirth instead which incorporates anatta - none of this individual permanent soul idea.

That sounds reasonable to me on the face of it, but very close to just acknowledging that the stuff of our beings changes during our lifetime – never mind waiting for our deaths. Atoms that once were part of us have at this stage entered into all classes of animate and inanimate objects all about us. The problem I’d have is seeing how someone could trace any kind of individual path for an Entity beyond the grave.

Asiaprod · 11-10-2006 9:32am

Schuhart wrote:

Next time you’re coming back as a chicken.:D

Bummer, and here I am trying so hard.

If there if just recycling – all that constitutes the Entities being broken down into a gloop of some kind, from which may emerge other Entities, then there’s no problem as there is no need for any accounting for numbers. Three Entities die and are subsumed into the gloop. Out the other side pop five Entities, two Entities whatever. But that equally seems to put pay to any idea of these new Entities tracing any kind of meaningful link back to the source entities – so, for example, the idea of choosing a role for a subsequent life seems utterly irrelevant.

Nope, dose not hold up because we don't know what may be in that gloop or what power it may have. I tend to think of reincarnation like a rechargable battery in reverse. Instead of filling up the old battery containers with new energy, since thebody turns back to dust, we could be putting older energy (us to be reincarnated or reborn) back into newer cases. Just an idea.:)

The problem I’d have is seeing how someone could trace any kind of individual path for an Entity beyond the grave.

Well look at it this way. A Buddhist does not have an entity like a God. A buddhist is a self-contained system, and the system is capable of directing its own path. Again, just another way to look at it.:)

coffee_cake · 11-10-2006 9:55am

Schuhart wrote:

But that equally seems to put pay to any idea of these new Entities tracing any kind of meaningful link back to the source entities – so, for example, the idea of choosing a role for a subsequent life seems utterly irrelevant.

Yes well as I said earlier, I don't get this whole "choosing a subsequent life" thing - I never subscribed to that.

That sounds reasonable to me on the face of it, but very close to just acknowledging that the stuff of our beings changes during our lifetime – never mind waiting for our deaths.

Exactly. We change and change throughout our lifetime too and nothing's different after death.

Atoms that once were part of us have at this stage entered into all classes of animate and inanimate objects all about us. The problem I’d have is seeing how someone could trace any kind of individual path for an Entity beyond the grave.

The same stream of consciousness is continued; not the individual.

Reincarnation

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