Age Limit to lift on Garda Entry ????

Copaholic · 12-05-2019 3:03am #1

Hello,

last December there was a ruling from the European court of justice where the WRC were entitled to disregard Irish law if it conflicts with European law. This was in the context of the age limit of entry to AGS being 35. As a result the minister for justice Mr Charlie Flanagan said the government is to lift the age barrier for entry to AGS.
however in the terms and conditions in the recently opened competition the age barrier of 35 is still in place.

Does anyone have any info as to why it hasnt been removed or is it simply because the competition occurred before the necessary amendments could be made to the age restriction.

any info would be great

thanks

Donadea lad · 12-05-2019 7:01pm

Hi
I heard about this but I can't find any info online.

Copaholic · 12-05-2019 11:32pm

Thanks for replying. you are correct there is nothing online other than if you google "govt set to lift garda age barrier". This was dated 5.12.18. I thought this years competition would have it lifted but it didn't so I am guessing that the legislation just hasn't been undone yet. I would expect that it certainly should be lifted next competition provided there is the will to do so.

kellbag91 · 14-05-2019 7:18pm

Copaholic wrote: »

Thanks for replying. you are correct there is nothing online other than if you google "govt set to lift garda age barrier". This was dated 5.12.18. I thought this years competition would have it lifted but it didn't so I am guessing that the legislation just hasn't been undone yet. I would expect that it certainly should be lifted next competition provided there is the will to do so.

My father was a Gard for 30 years, like alot of things in the force it will take a bit of time before this happens. Big change is taking place in the Gards right now, from new nationalities joining to tech up-grades. So I'd imagine it will be coming soon.
If they do open up the age limit id imagine you would have 1000s applying for about 600 positions next year.

bottar1 · 21-05-2019 12:27pm

kellbag91 wrote: »

My father was a Gard for 30 years, like alot of things in the force it will take a bit of time before this happens. Big change is taking place in the Gards right now, from new nationalities joining to tech up-grades. So I'd imagine it will be coming soon.
If they do open up the age limit id imagine you would have 1000s applying for about 600 positions next year.

Apparently you already have 1000s applying though, for the 2018 campaign anyway I heard it was quite a few thousand.

The age limit is still in place. I don't know how they can really lift it fully with the nature of the job and the work you're going to be doing, but I guess they have to now.

You will probably not get a full pension or have to pay more contributions etc as the length of service won't be as long and other issues like that probably have to be worked out before they can implement it.

kellbag91 · 21-05-2019 4:33pm

bottar1 wrote: »

Apparently you already have 1000s applying though, for the 2018 campaign anyway I heard it was quite a few thousand.

The age limit is still in place. I don't know how they can really lift it fully with the nature of the job and the work you're going to be doing, but I guess they have to now.

You will probably not get a full pension or have to pay more contributions etc as the length of service won't be as long and other issues like that probably have to be worked out before they can implement it.

Yea there was about 5000 ( I was one of them). All UK forces are up to 50 years of age for new applicants, so big deal really. If the individual is fit enough and it's what they want to do sure why not. Having said that if they are bringing on older trainees then the fitness test will have to be overhauled to make sure people are up for the job.

bottar1 · 22-05-2019 8:50am

kellbag91 wrote: »

Yea there was about 5000 ( I was one of them). All UK forces are up to 50 years of age for new applicants, so big deal really. If the individual is fit enough and it's what they want to do sure why not. Having said that if they are bringing on older trainees then the fitness test will have to be overhauled to make sure people are up for the job.

I already find the fitness test a bit unfair, I mean I have to get 8.8 in the beep test at 24, but those in higher age brackets get it much easier, I'll damn-well be able to get 8.8 at 35 too because I keep myself fit, you know what the test is so you can train for it.

If you want the job at an older age then you should have to meet similar requirements as anyone else in my opinion!!

Witcher · 22-05-2019 9:54am

If you're able to get it easily what are you whining about fairness for?

Concentrate on yourself and leave others to themselves.

bottar1 · 22-05-2019 11:28am

Witcher wrote: »

If you're able to get it easily what are you whining about fairness for?

Concentrate on yourself and leave others to themselves.

Not necessarily easy, needed to train, but I think it's only fair you should have to all meet a certain standard, knowing the standard in advance means you can meet it with some practice and training.

Of course I'll concentrate on myself, I have no decision in the matter, its just my opinion is all that it should be more equal as you do the same job regardless of age, or any other factors!! Not trying to rile anyone up.

Just like equality in allowing people of all ages to join is more equal and fair!!

kellbag91 · 22-05-2019 8:07pm

bottar1 wrote: »

I already find the fitness test a bit unfair, I mean I have to get 8.8 in the beep test at 24, but those in higher age brackets get it much easier, I'll damn-well be able to get 8.8 at 35 too because I keep myself fit, you know what the test is so you can train for it.

If you want the job at an older age then you should have to meet similar requirements as anyone else in my opinion!!

.

The fitness test was fair in my opinion, and funny enough I didn't see any of the older candidates fail. So I don't believe age is a factor in fitness. Once someone is fit and active I think an older trainee will have no problem.

But getting back to the point I'd expected the next
recruitment drive, considering we now have Muslim gards and uniform changes. But I've seen simular posts going back 10 years talking about the age change coming.

bottar1 · 23-05-2019 1:15pm

kellbag91 wrote: »

.

The fitness test was fair in my opinion, and funny enough I didn't see any of the older candidates fail.

Not trying to throw a spanner in the works - but the test gets easier as you get older, so that may be the correlation.

But yes, for the most part it is fair, I would just expect them to keep a high level of fitness regardless of age. I do think the age change will come in eventually, I guess it takes a long time to make these changes because it effects everything from the fitness test, to pension contributions, etc etc.

docst · 14-06-2019 11:38pm

bottar1 wrote: »

Not trying to throw a spanner in the works - but the test gets easier as you get older, so that may be the correlation.

But yes, for the most part it is fair, I would just expect them to keep a high level of fitness regardless of age. I do think the age change will come in eventually, I guess it takes a long time to make these changes because it effects everything from the fitness test, to pension contributions, etc etc.

The beep test is based on your Vo2 max which in turn declines with age, hence the older you are the harder it is to reach the same level as a younger person.

Edgware · 18-06-2019 11:53am

The present Commissioner is committed to increased civilianisation so that trained officer are doing the work they were trained for and not shuffling paper in offices at wages 40% more than civil servants. There will be no handy jobs available for Gardai who are not interested in street work or want more family friendly hours. A Garda that is medically unfit perhaps due to an injury on duty or illness that anyone can have will be medically discharged. That is what happens in the UK and elsewhere.
Really is raising the admission age going to improve the service? I dont think so.

kellbag91 · 18-06-2019 6:12pm

Edgware wrote: »

The present Commissioner is committed to increased civilianisation so that trained officer are doing the work they were trained for and not shuffling paper in offices at wages 40% more than civil servants. There will be no handy jobs available for Gardai who are not interested in street work or want more family friendly hours. A Garda that is medically unfit perhaps due to an injury on duty or illness that anyone can have will be medically discharged. That is what happens in the UK and elsewhere.
Really is raising the admission age going to improve the service? I dont think so.

My father use to call them draft dodgers. Quite a few Gards found themselves in handy desk jobs who never made any real arrests in their careers. The age should definitely be raised to accommodate experienced police from other countries.

Edgware · 01-07-2019 6:38pm

kellbag91 wrote: »

My father use to call them draft dodgers. Quite a few Gards found themselves in handy desk jobs who never made any real arrests in their careers. The age should definitely be raised to accommodate experienced police from other countries.

And so reduce career opportunities for young Irish men and women?

kellbag91 · 04-07-2019 1:36pm

Edgware wrote: »

And so reduce career opportunities for young Irish men and women?

When it comes to bringing the force up to international standards there should be direct entry for those with special skills. This could be IT, languages, educational or academic. You mentioned above about gards being thrown out of a job due to injury ? The majority of injuries are sustained on the job, it's only right people are repurposed and given deskjobs. If you've served your time on the streets then you should be entitled to a desk position. But I do agree more civilians could and should free up existing Gards.

irishgrover · 04-07-2019 1:44pm

bottar1 wrote: »

I already find the fitness test a bit unfair, I mean I have to get 8.8 in the beep test at 24, but those in higher age brackets get it much easier, I'll damn-well be able to get 8.8 at 35 too because I keep myself fit, you know what the test is so you can train for it.

If you want the job at an older age then you should have to meet similar requirements as anyone else in my opinion!!

there are different attributes that people of different ages can bring to any job. For example, and not aimed at you direct; it is quite probable that someone older than you would have more life experience and maturity than you have.
This could be very beneficial (possibly more beneficial than physical attributes). So in any organisation it often helps to have differing skill sets and experience.
Lets say you are paired up with an older more worldly experienced colleague.
He/she might be better than you at deescalating a situation and resolving it successfully. However if they fail then you would be more beneficial in resolving physical issues with your greater fitness.

04-07-2019 1:50pm

bottar1 wrote: »

I already find the fitness test a bit unfair, I mean I have to get 8.8 in the beep test at 24, but those in higher age brackets get it much easier, I'll damn-well be able to get 8.8 at 35 too because I keep myself fit, you know what the test is so you can train for it.

If you want the job at an older age then you should have to meet similar requirements as anyone else in my opinion!!

I agree but in the other way.
If the minimum standard can be a lower bleep for older people, or a lower sit-up/press/push machine for women then that is what is accepted as the minimum.

Either everyone does the higher levels or everyone does the lower, why are young men given harder targets to reach if the acceptable minimum is far lower?

BuzzMcdonnell · 04-07-2019 4:31pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I agree but in the other way.
If the minimum standard can be a lower bleep for older people, or a lower sit-up/press/push machine for women then that is what is accepted as the minimum.

Either everyone does the higher levels or everyone does the lower, why are young men given harder targets to reach if the acceptable minimum is far lower?

I completely agree with this, the powers that be think that females can do the job after completing the lower levels. Men on the other hand are seen to be unsuitable for the role if they don’t meet the higher levels, even if they exceed the lower one?

This is not intended to bash women in any way, I just think it’s unfair.

Edgware · 05-07-2019 1:14pm

kellbag91 wrote: »

When it comes to bringing the force up to international standards there should be direct entry for those with special skills. This could be IT, languages, educational or academic. You mentioned above about gards being thrown out of a job due to injury ? The majority of injuries are sustained on the job, it's only right people are repurposed and given deskjobs. If you've served your time on the streets then you should be entitled to a desk position. But I do agree more civilians could and should free up existing Gards.

I think Ireland should be ok for the supply of IT skilled people but certainly we are very far behind on the languages even standard ones such as French German Spanish which are thought in most schools. If it is direct entry on the basis of a language skill does that person be restricted to that area of work then?

kellbag91 · 05-07-2019 10:38pm

When it comes to the fitness test there should be a one size fits all approach. Dirrect entry would be to encourage graduates with specific qualifications: Cyber crime, Arabic, Phycology, Terrorism studies etc. The current system has recruits starting from the bottom and over time working to these positions.The idea of street work doesn't appeal to all.
That a side whats a realistic age for front line Gardai 40, 45, 50 ?

Calhoun · 05-07-2019 10:41pm

kellbag91 wrote: »

When it comes to the fitness test there should be a one size fits all approach. Dirrect entry would be to encourage graduates with specific qualifications: Cyber crime, Arabic, Phycology, Terrorism studies etc. The current system has recruits starting from the bottom and over time working to these positions.The idea of street work doesn't appeal to all.
That a side whats a realistic age for front line Gardai 40, 45, 50 ?

Why would Arabic be a prerequisite for the Guards?

Also as far as moving straight into specialist areas do you not think that there is benefit from starting on the street to give them a grounding. Considering how union driven our force is do you think this would be acceptable?

BuzzMcdonnell · 05-07-2019 10:51pm

Calhoun wrote: »

Why would Arabic be a prerequisite for the Guards?

Also as far as moving straight into specialist areas do you not think that there is benefit from starting on the street to give them a grounding. Considering how union driven our force is do you think this would be acceptable?

Nobody said Arabic should be a prerequisite.

Calhoun · 05-07-2019 11:43pm

BuzzMcdonnell wrote: »

Nobody said Arabic should be a prerequisite.

As a qualification in the post above mine. Why would it need to be ?

BuzzMcdonnell · 05-07-2019 11:56pm

Calhoun wrote: »

As a qualification in the post above mine. Why would it need to be ?

He said direct entry would encourage graduates with specific skills such as being proficient in Arabic. This would clearly be of benefit to counter terrorism units and also to encourage multiculturalism and integration. He never stated that it should be a prerequisite to joining AGS.

Calhoun · 06-07-2019 12:08am

BuzzMcdonnell wrote: »

He said direct entry would encourage graduates with specific skills such as being proficient in Arabic. This would clearly be of benefit to counter terrorism units and also to encourage multiculturalism and integration. He never stated that it should be a prerequisite to joining AGS.

I used the wrong word but my point was more why would you need it? Do we have a big counter terrorism unit to the extent that it would be required?

The second part of my question was would the existing force be open to direct entry considering how they have to maneuver within the force today.

BuzzMcdonnell · 06-07-2019 10:02am

Calhoun wrote: »

I used the wrong word but my point was more why would you need it? Do we have a big counter terrorism unit to the extent that it would be required?

The second part of my question was would the existing force be open to direct entry considering how they have to maneuver within the force today.

I’m not sure if we’d need it, but he was more using it as an example of the types of skills people could bring.

I think direct entry could be beneficial in some limited cases, depending on the needs of the force. I think it would attract individuals with more advanced educations in specific areas.

06-07-2019 11:46am

kellbag91 wrote: »

When it comes to the fitness test there should be a one size fits all approach. Dirrect entry would be to encourage graduates with specific qualifications: Cyber crime, Arabic, Phycology, Terrorism studies etc. The current system has recruits starting from the bottom and over time working to these positions.The idea of street work doesn't appeal to all.
That a side whats a realistic age for front line Gardai 40, 45, 50 ?

Honestly, it's the reason I dropped out at the last stage of the campaign.
I'm in IT and was going through the application process just after I graduated. By the time I was to do the fitness test I was in a good IT role paying as much as I ever would in AGS.
Now I earn more but I STILL would have gone into AGS if I could have had some measure of guarantee that I would go into a role using my qualifications (and area of vast interest) after a period of doing the bread and butter Garda role.
I don't think that a member of AGS should be allowed skip learning how policing actually works, on the ground, rather serve time there and then move into applicable field.

06-07-2019 11:49am

irishgrover wrote: »

there are different attributes that people of different ages can bring to any job. For example, and not aimed at you direct; it is quite probable that someone older than you would have more life experience and maturity than you have.
This could be very beneficial (possibly more beneficial than physical attributes). So in any organisation it often helps to have differing skill sets and experience.
Lets say you are paired up with an older more worldly experienced colleague.
He/she might be better than you at deescalating a situation and resolving it successfully. However if they fail then you would be more beneficial in resolving physical issues with your greater fitness.

Except that would only work if the older is paired with younger, or man with woman, and such.

There is no reason to set minimum physical standards and then make other groups hit a higher standard.
If the minimum is what is required to do the job, then the minimum is what is what is required no?

kellbag91 · 06-07-2019 1:46pm

Calhoun wrote: »

Why would Arabic be a prerequisite for the Guards?

Also as far as moving straight into specialist areas do you not think that there is benefit from starting on the street to give them a grounding. Considering how union driven our force is do you think this would be acceptable?

For becoming a Security Guard perhaps it is, a "Garda" on the other hand I didn't say that it would be a specific requirement. Currently a language is a prerequisite for the Job, not just Irish. The more diverse language profiles in the force the better.

What's the point of having a Garda with a Masters degree in Cyber security and 5 years of work experience in that field shorting out domestics in Tallaght ? To attract that kind of skill level into the force you need to offer direct entry into those roles, and not street work dealing with junkies.
This current system already exists in the UK and has been working for a number of years, it's not reinventing the wheel.

How old is too old ? The robust nature of the job combined with shift work means you need people who are fit and active. The age of entry should be lifted and annual fitness tests brought in to make sure the right motivated candidates stay in the job.

Calhoun · 06-07-2019 3:41pm

kellbag91 wrote: »

For becoming a Security Guard perhaps it is, a "Garda" on the other hand I didn't say that it would be a specific requirement. Currently a language is a prerequisite for the Job, not just Irish. The more diverse language profiles in the force the better.

What's the point of having a Garda with a Masters degree in Cyber security and 5 years of work experience in that field shorting out domestics in Tallaght ? To attract that kind of skill level into the force you need to offer direct entry into those roles, and not street work dealing with junkies.
This current system already exists in the UK and has been working for a number of years, it's not reinventing the wheel.

How old is too old ? The robust nature of the job combined with shift work means you need people who are fit and active. The age of entry should be lifted and annual fitness tests brought in to make sure the right motivated candidates stay in the job.

I didn't know the Guards had a language requirement but i would be surprised if they were targeting specific languages.

What your saying makes sense but my question is the organization ready for that? Our Guards are heavily unionized and an be resistant to change.

Again do you really think the older group will allow those changes to take place? The current system has a design that benefits people who stay longer in the organization and benefits the existing leadership structure as its easier to mold young people.

Not that i disagree with what your saying but just questioning is the force ready to change ?

I also see that you are a possible soon to be serving member. You will know allot more than i will when you get in. From the serving members i know that are there, maneuverability can be very hard. I would also loose the preciousness over the likes of the name ect, nothing worse than a Garda who has his own head up his arse.

Age Limit to lift on Garda Entry ????

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