Funny/Unusual records

srmf5 · 08-02-2019 12:55pm

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

That is a brilliant find Hermy! At first I thought you were talking about all the Do's, then I saw the right hand column, but then I noticed the occupation. I have never ever heard any mention of non-RC evictions as I was always led to believe it was only the very poor RC tenants who were evicted. Any other references you know of?

I could only find one birth record for the couple and it was for Noble Armstrong baptised in 1896 in Church of Ireland. The address was Kenagh (not far from Kilcommock) in Longford and the father was a farmer at the time. I don't see the family in 1911. Also interesting that one of the sons was named William O'Brien Armstrong.

Edit: The civil births are available for all the children but I could only find one baptism that was online. Robert was still a farmer living in Kenagh in 1898 when the last child was born.

Hermy · 08-02-2019 1:03pm

I know nothing about them - I came by it quite by accident while looking for a different Armstrong who was present at a death in Longford - but like you the reference to eviction caught my eye.

srmf5 · 08-02-2019 1:30pm

I found two newspaper articles of a description of Robert Armstrong's eviction. In another article he was a member of the United Irish League and described as a 'Protestant Home Ruler and evicted tenant' in 1900. I've attached the two articles on his eviction for anyone who's interested.

Edit: His eviction seems to have occurred in 1888. His occupation was gentleman when he married in 1884.

kildarejohn · 08-02-2019 11:22pm

srmf5 wrote: »

I found two newspaper articles of a description of Robert Armstrong's eviction. .

Mr. Armstrong's story seems to be full of "funny/unusual" aspects. Did anyone notice the name of the signatory of the summons?-
RM.jpg

Leeside · 03-04-2019 3:12pm

I wonder what's the story behind naming illegitimate children 'Nepoleon'. This first name was given only three times in Iveleary (Inchigeelagh), each time to an illegitmate child.

https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/search.jsp?namefm=nepoleon&namel=&location=iveleary&yyfrom=&yyto=&submit=Search

I wonder did the priest have something to do with it. The children surely can't have found it easy living in a rural area with that name - marked as illegitimate for life.

Peregrinus · 03-04-2019 3:24pm

I don;t think these children were illegitimate; they are all the children of named fathers and they are given their fathers' surnames.

I think what has happened is that the addresses in the register are illegible, and the transcription of the records this has inadvertently been rendered as "illegitimate", possibly through the slapdash use of drop-down menu.

Nor am I convinced that these children were named "Nepoleon". Again, I smell transcription errors!

Leeside · 03-04-2019 3:40pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

I don;t think these children were illegitimate; they are all the children of named fathers and they are given their fathers' surnames.

I think what has happened is that the addresses in the register are illegible, and the transcription of the records this has inadvertently been rendered as "illegitimate", possibly through the slapdash use of drop-down menu.

Nor am I convinced that these children were named "Nepoleon". Again, I smell transcription errors!

The church records clearly state that the children were illegitimate. I also don't see any transcription error in the first name.

It would appear that female illegitimate children were given the name 'Matilda'.

My guess is that the priest gave the name Matilda and the name Nepoleon when the parents disowned the child at birth and did not wish to name him/her.

pinkypinky · 03-04-2019 3:54pm

It's unusual to see the father named in the case of illegitimate children but both parents are clear in this case. Each child is given their father's surname too.

The 3 years are just after Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo (with apologies to all who now have the song stuck in their head), though he was dead by the latter 2 births.

srmf5 · 03-04-2019 4:32pm

Illegitimate is written where the address should be recorded. There's hardly a townland in the area that looks like illegitimate and people from the same townland just happened to love the name Napoleon? It does look like illegitimate though but as said it's interesting that all have the father's name recorded.

If it's the case that boys were named Napoleon and girls Matilda, the girls got off much more lightly since Matilda wouldn't have been nearly as uncommon.

Hermy · 03-04-2019 4:58pm

I've often seen baptisms where the father is named but the child is recorded as illegitimate and just take it to mean the child was born out of wedlock.

srmf5 · 03-04-2019 5:14pm

That's the only way that I would interpret illegitimate as well. I suppose that there only seems to be three cases in that time period so it's not a large number and the three fathers must have acknowledged the child as theirs. If the father didn't, I know that there have been cases from other posts where the priest would have a note written of who the father was supposed to have been. It reminds me of Game of Thrones such as giving all illegitimate children in the north the surname Snow. We know for royalty that the surname Fitzroy was sometimes given in real life.

pedroeibar1 · 03-04-2019 5:20pm

Agreed Hermy. If the parents were not married and the father acknowledged the infant child his name was used as a surname, if not it generally bore the mothers surname. I've not encountered the link of the names with illegitimacy.
The 1941 novel 'An Béal Bocht' by Brian O'Nuallain (Flann O'Brien) is a memoir of one Bónapárt Ó Cúnasa. The Bonaparte name is also linked to the Wyse family of Waterford, where one of them married a niece of the emperor and that branch of the family continued as Bonaparte-Wyse.

pedroeibar1 · 03-04-2019 5:25pm

srmf5 wrote: »

That's the only way that I would interpret illegitimate as well. I suppose that there only seems to be three cases in that time period so it's not a large number and the three fathers must have acknowledged the child as theirs. If the father didn't, I know that there have been cases from other posts where the priest would have a note written of who the father was supposed to have been. It reminds me of Game of Thrones such as giving all illegitimate children in the north the surname Snow. We know for royalty that the surname Fitzroy was sometimes given in real life.

Crossed posts with you smrf.
The Duke of Clarence (later William IV) had a long relationship with the actress Mrs. Jordan (nee Dorothy Bland) who bore him many children. All of them took the surname FitzClarence. David Cameron is one descendant and the last Duke of Munster who died quite recently was another.

spurious · 03-04-2019 6:57pm

There's also a 'Ferdinand' from Illegitimate in one of those pages.

Leeside · 03-04-2019 9:52pm

The father's name is also recorded for those girls given the name 'Matilda'. Interestingly the term 'bastard' is use for two of the baptisms so there can be no doubt what the intention of the priest was. Even though the father was known and his surname used, the priest wanted it to be known that the child was born out of wedlock. The names 'Nepoleon' (sic) and Matilda are so unusual for Inchigeelagh, the priest must have wanted the whole parish to be aware of the circumstances of the child's birth. I can't see any other explanation.

https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/search.jsp?name2fm=&name2l=&namefm=matilda&namel=&location=iveleary&yyfrom=1810&yyto=1830&submit=Search&sort=&pageSize=100&diocese=CORK+%26+ROSS+%28RC%29&parish=IVELEARY&century=&decade=&ddBfrom=&ddMfrom=&ddDfrom=&mmBfrom=&mmMfrom=&mmDfrom=&yyBfrom=&yyMfrom=&yyDfrom=&ddBto=&ddMto=&ddDto=&mmBto=&mmMto=&mmDto=&yyBto=&yyMto=&yyDto=&locationB=&locationM=&locationD=&member0=&member1=&member2=&member3=&member4=&member5=&member6=&member7=&member8=&member9=&namef0=&namef1=&namef2=&namef3=&namef4=&namef5=&namef6=&namef7=&namef8=&namef9=&namel0=&namel1=&namel2=&namel3=&namel4=&namel5=&namel6=&namel7=&namel8=&namel9=&keyword=&event=

Hermy · 04-04-2019 12:20am

Leeside wrote: »

...the priest must have wanted the whole parish to be aware of the circumstances of the child's birth...

Perhaps but I wonder would these records have been available for public scrutiny?

Peregrinus · 04-04-2019 3:20am

Leeside wrote: »

The father's name is also recorded for those girls given the name 'Matilda'. Interestingly the term 'bastard' is use for two of the baptisms so there can be no doubt what the intention of the priest was. Even though the father was known and his surname used, the priest wanted it to be known that the child was born out of wedlock. The names 'Nepoleon' (sic) and Matilda are so unusual for Inchigeelagh, the priest must have wanted the whole parish to be aware of the circumstances of the child's birth. I can't see any other explanation.

The whole parish almost certainly was already aware of the circumstances of the child's birth but, if they weren't, a notation in the parish register wasn't going to alert them to it.

I think the reason for this is that, back in the day, there were canonical consequences attached to illegitimacy. A man born illegitimate, for example, was not allowed to be be ordained a priest (without getting a dispensation from Rome). There may have been other consequences; I don't know. So this fact was noted in the baptism register because it might be signficant for canon law purposes later.

The fact that the fathers are named and the children are given the father's name makes me think that the parents were openly cohabiting, and the children were acknowledged. We tend to think of times past as extremely puritanical in matters of sex, but in fact this is to some extent a post-Famine tend in Ireland. In the earlier part of the nineteenth century attitudes were, relatively at any rate, a bit more relaxed. Cohabiting outside wedlock certainly attraced a degree of social disapprobation, and would have been ruinous to someone in the middle classes. But if you were a landless labourer, you had nothing to lose, and social disapprobation may not have been quite as big a concern for you.

Vetch · 04-04-2019 7:22am

spurious wrote: »

There's also a 'Ferdinand' from Illegitimate in one of those pages.

There are a number of atypical names listed for illegitimate children in this particular parish (also Clotilda, Carolina, Bonaparte, Luis). I could be wrong on this as I only had a quick look but the names don't seem to recur in later records such as marriage records and would wonder if these people were known by these names in their everyday lives. Most of the children marked illegitimate in the parish have very usual names.

pinkypinky · 04-04-2019 9:26am

Is there a common priest in all these cases?

Part of me still wishes there was a townland called Illegitimate.

kildarejohn · 04-04-2019 10:35am

Vetch wrote: »

There are a number of atypical names listed for illegitimate children in this particular parish (also Clotilda, Carolina, Bonaparte, Luis). I could be wrong on this as I only had a quick look but the names don't seem to recur in later records such as marriage records and would wonder if these people were known by these names in their everyday lives. Most of the children marked illegitimate in the parish have very usual names.

Just a wild guess, but I wonder perhaps was the priest educated in a Catholic seminary in Europe and therefore chose these very European names. If the priest was heavily influenced by his contacts with French Catholics perhaps he was naming the babies after people he knew.

Jellybaby1 · 04-04-2019 3:26pm

Well, Napoleon is indeed a strange named but it could have been worse I suppose. Found this if you feel like reading it. Other names could have been: Helpless, Forsaken, Repentance, or even Flie-fornication!! A better one could have been Fortune.

http://www.strangehistory.net/2015/06/15/bastard-names/

https://www.genealogy.com/articles/research/52_donna.html

Peregrinus · 05-04-2019 2:12am

kildarejohn wrote: »

Just a wild guess, but I wonder perhaps was the priest educated in a Catholic seminary in Europe and therefore chose these very European names. If the priest was heavily influenced by his contacts with French Catholics perhaps he was naming the babies after people he knew.

Unlikely that he knew Napoleon! Not personally, at any rate.

The suggestion of an eduction in France is an interesting one. The Irish Colleges in France were closed (by the revolutionary government) in 1793; Maynooth was founded in 1795 in response. About 10 years later, the Irish College in Paris was reopened, but as a much smaller institution, and with some students spending a part of their formation there, and many not going there at all. Whether a priest ministering in the 1820s is likely to have spent much time in Paris basically depends on how old he is.

The choice of "Napoleon" is interesting. On the one hand, he might be seen as having rescued the French church from the horrors of the Revolution and the Terror, and as having helped to restore some stability to it. On the other hand, he tried to bring it under his own control. I would think Catholics in France at the time would have had very mixed feelings about Napoleon; certainly not unqualified admiration. In Britain, he was simply a bogeyman figure. Hard to know how he might have been perceived in rural Ireland. There wasn't any real republican/separatist movement with strong traction at this time; Catholic emancipation and, after that, Repeal were all the go, and I don't really see Napoleon being an inspirational figure for either movement.

We're also assuming that the baptismal name is chosen by the priest but, of course, this isn't normally the case. The most the priest usually gets to do is to veto a proposed name, usually on the grounds that it isn't Christian or biblical. Yet it's undeniably striking that there are several Napoleons in this register, and they're all illegitimate.

pedroeibar1 · 05-04-2019 8:44am

Peregrinus wrote: »

....

We're also assuming that the baptismal name is chosen by the priest but, of course, this isn't normally the case. The most the priest usually gets to do is to veto a proposed name, usually on the grounds that it isn't Christian or biblical. Yet it's undeniably striking that there are several Napoleons in this register, and they're all illegitimate.

Don't forget that Louvain too had an Irish college and was part of the French Republic from 1795 until 1815.
The baptism in question took place less than 8 years after Napoleon was excommunicated by the Pope so it is most likely that the name was given to the infant as a 'punishment' name. However he probably grew up as 'Sean'. The power of a priest back then (and indeed until recent times) allowed him do what he wanted.

Peregrinus · 05-04-2019 9:15am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Don't forget that Louvain too had an Irish college and was part of the French Republic from 1795 until 1815.

The college at Louvain was closed in 1794 (for the obvious reason) and didn't reopen (as an Irish College) until some time in the 20th century.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

The baptism in question took place less than 8 years after Napoleon was excommunicated by the Pope so it is most likely that the name was given to the infant as a 'punishment' name. However he probably grew up as 'Sean'. The power of a priest back then (and indeed until recent times) allowed him do what he wanted.

The excommunication was just one episode in a rather, um, chequered relationship between Napoleon and the papacy, which was still ongoing for at least the earliest of the three baptisms mentioned. This was a bit before the papacy loomed quite as large in the Irish Catholic imagination as it came to in the later nineteenth century and I suspect that, even for a parish priest, attitudes to Napoleon would have been influenced more by his relationship with Britain than by his relationship with the papacy. And, to be honest, throughout the period when these baptisms took place, he would have been an even bigger bogeyman for the British than for the Popes.

I think the view that the name would have been chosen by the priest is conjectural; do we have evidence of priests imposing names, especially derogatory names, on illegitimate children during this period? Plus, if the priest was going to impose a name, wouldn't he be far more likely to impose a name with Christian, if penitential, associations.

I think the key here may be the spelling. A search of the church records for "Napoleon" turns up 37 hits so the name, while uncommon, wasn't unique. "Nepoleon", turns up only 4 hits, of which three are in the same parish in a short space of years. Which makes me think that, actually, the common link here may not be that these chldren were baptised in a parish where the priest liked to impose names as a cruel joke but, maybe, they were baptised in a parish where the priest was under a misapprehension as to the spelling of "Napoleon", but the name itself was not considered punitive and there is no real reason to think the priest chose it.

kildarejohn · 05-04-2019 10:40am

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think the view that the name would have been chosen by the priest is conjectural; do we have evidence of priests imposing names, especially derogatory names, on illegitimate children during this period?

I feel that 4 Napoleons plus (according to Vetch) a few Clotilda, Carolina, Bonaparte, Luis, is just too many odd names to be coincidence. Can I throw out a couple of ideas - with no basis of evidence - to see what people think.
1) The priest may have chosen the names, not as punishment, but as a way of preserving the (alleged) father's anonymity. In those days, children (boys in particular) were always named after g.father, father etc. So if the illeg. boy was named Thomas, people would have said "oh he must be a Murphy so". By naming him Napoleon, his father remained a mystery.
2) In those days women had zero rights, not even the right to name their own children. So if the father was not around, the obvious senior male figure to name the child was the priest.

pedroeibar1 · 05-04-2019 6:08pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

The college at Louvain was closed in 1794 (for the obvious reason) and didn't reopen (as an Irish College) until some time in the 20th century. .

Agreed, the Republic moved on the College (actually in 1793) but it was not vacated for some time – the Guardian, a Fr James Cowan continued the fight to hold onto the building until he lost control and it was eventually sold in 1822. (It was re-purchased in 1925.)

A strong Irish presence continued in Louvain, however, and a kinsman of mine, born 1827, in Co. Tipp., trained at the Irish College in Paris, was ordained in 1853, served in Ireland until 1857 when he moved to Louvain.

Vetch · 05-04-2019 8:29pm

kildarejohn wrote: »

I feel that 4 Napoleons plus (according to Vetch) a few Clotilda, Carolina, Bonaparte, Luis, is just too many odd names to be coincidence. Can I throw out a couple of ideas - with no basis of evidence - to see what people think.
1) The priest may have chosen the names, not as punishment, but as a way of preserving the (alleged) father's anonymity. In those days, children (boys in particular) were always named after g.father, father etc. So if the illeg. boy was named Thomas, people would have said "oh he must be a Murphy so". By naming him Napoleon, his father remained a mystery.
2) In those days women had zero rights, not even the right to name their own children. So if the father was not around, the obvious senior male figure to name the child was the priest.

A problem with this is that Peregrinus is correct in #118. It was later in the 19th century before the Catholic Church gained real traction. If you look at priests' correspondence in the 1820s you will find references to priests struggling to get parishioners to conform to teachings - people not attending Mass, not observing Easter, cohabiting outside wedlock.

As the fathers are named in the register, the parents may have been living together with the baby having the father's surname. Anonymity in a very rural place like Inchigeelagh doesn't ring true. It's also easy to imagine a priest having difficulty stamping his authority there. Inchigeelagh is really a bit of a spin from anywhere you could call a town and it would be easy to see people not taking too much notice of a priest.

pinkypinky · 05-04-2019 11:41pm

Just browsing the Rosemary ffoliott collection on FMP that Claire Santry blogged about earlier and came across this.

Ennis Chronicle 16/2/1820 reporting the marriage of a James Guerin aged 78 to Sarah Doyle aged 81 at Tulla.

Jellybaby1 · 07-04-2019 10:35pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Just browsing the Rosemary ffoliott collection on FMP that Claire Santry blogged about earlier and came across this.

Ennis Chronicle 16/2/1820 reporting the marriage of a James Guerin aged 78 to Sarah Doyle aged 81 at Tulla.

Was it love, or was it inheritance that inspired the marriage I wonder?

Peregrinus · 08-04-2019 3:36am

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Was it love, or was it inheritance that inspired the marriage I wonder?

With an older spouse/younger spouse marriage, you might be thinking the younger spouse is motivated by hopes of inheritance. But whichever of these spouses survived the other was probably not going to enjoy any inheritance for very long anyway.

One possiblity was that the spousees were a long-tme couple who had children and that they married to secure the inheritance rights of their children. But that's conjectural, obviously.

The other is that the married for companionship in old age. Each may have been married before, and then widowed.

Jellybaby1 · 08-04-2019 11:00pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

With an older spouse/younger spouse marriage, you might be thinking the younger spouse is motivated by hopes of inheritance. But whichever of these spouses survived the other was probably not going to enjoy any inheritance for very long anyway.

One possiblity was that the spousees were a long-tme couple who had children and that they married to secure the inheritance rights of their children. But that's conjectural, obviously.

The other is that the married for companionship in old age. Each may have been married before, and then widowed.

You are much more sensible than me!

spurious · 14-04-2019 10:12pm

George Prescott's census return made me smile. The occupation(s) and to top it all the 'Refused' for religion.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003732803/

Jellybaby1 · 14-04-2019 11:34pm

spurious wrote: »

George Prescott's census return made me smile. The occupation(s) and to top it all the 'Refused' for religion.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003732803/

That's a good one all right. George thought he was writing his CV! Someone please confirm that Annie O'Rourke was born in Dulalee!

I'd also love to know what Annie O'Rourke and Blossie O'Sullivan had originally down under Marriage. Blossie is a great name as well.

pinkypinky · 15-04-2019 9:42am

Brilliant return!

What are philosophical instruments?!

Jellybaby1 · 15-04-2019 7:38pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Brilliant return!

What are philosophical instruments?!

Probably a bit like theoretical maths!

Vetch · 15-04-2019 8:19pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Brilliant return!

What are philosophical instruments?!

'Philosophical' might refer to natural philosophy by the other parts of the entry, so scientific instruments of some sort.

pedroeibar1 · 15-04-2019 11:20pm

Vetch wrote: »

'Philosophical' might refer to natural philosophy by the other parts of the entry, so scientific instruments of some sort.

Yes. A camera obscura is a philosophical instrument. Generally PIs were manufactured instruments used to artificially reproduce natural phenomena to enable their study in the lab.

Deja Boo · 08-05-2019 4:52am

Hmm, apparently the 5 year olds in the community had a bit of a reputation :eek: .....and minister's kids to boot, tsk tsk.

Dunno how they even came up with those titles.
Maybe census transcribers should train in our Handwriting thread before mis-labeling kids who were :pac: at home.

spurious · 08-05-2019 7:02am

There is the possibility for 'Arsehool' clear as day.:)
Perhaps they were Dutch.

looksee · 08-05-2019 9:49am

At home and at school.

Deja Boo · 08-05-2019 9:57am

yup

how did a transcriber not get that, I wonder.

Jellybaby1 · 08-05-2019 8:49pm

Transcriber just didn't look hard or long enough. Sometimes you just need to work it out for a minute, it will become clear!

DamoRed · 09-05-2019 10:11pm

A busy chap, George. Who said only women could multi-task? Definitely a man ahead of his time; this was multi-tasking 100 years before multi-tasking was even a thing!

shar01 · 18-05-2019 8:46am

Sad entry - no 359 - and interesting to see how a surname can come about.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1910/01562/1630668.pdf

Jellybaby1 · 18-05-2019 3:15pm

Oh that is sad. I searched 'unknown' on the church records and 27 came up but some were unknown parents and the child was given a name, random or not. A lot of babies left to either die or be found by accident. Too sad for words. Interesting marriage in Bagnalstown where the fathers of the couple were unknown.

shar01 · 18-05-2019 3:21pm

Found a newspaper report on it.

https://search.findmypast.ie/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0001873%2f19100611%2f100

Hermy · 21-05-2019 6:04pm

Where were you born?

This family were all born in a bed in Drogheda.

pinkypinky · 21-05-2019 8:13pm

I love it. So very literal.

tabbey · 21-05-2019 10:45pm

Hermy wrote: »

Where were you born?

This family were all born in a bed in Drogheda.

M Josephine was born in a bed elsewhere.

One wonders was life a bed of roses for this family, or a bed of nails.

Hermy · 21-05-2019 11:19pm

tabbey wrote: »

M Josephine was born in a bed elsewhere.

I missed that!:o

Funny/Unusual records

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