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  • 02-03-2009 5:57pm
    #1
    Phototoxin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭


    Hi, I'm currently 're-evaluating' my religous/spiritual life and I think its only fair to remain open minded.

    While my personal view of paganism in general has been skewed largely towards the negative (with 1 or 2 notable exceptions) from the people I've met I still am curious. The only 'problem' is that it a broad definition leading and from reading the FAQ/Charter I realise that there could be infinte ways to answer a question.

    Firstly is paganism theistic? I assume if someone worshiped Ra or Isis or Zeus its pagan and theistic. Is agnostic paganism possible ? or is it nature /earth/sun/universe worship? Or is the answer 'it can be' If it 'can be' how does one decided what deities to follow/honour/worship and why?

    This is from the Q&A/FAQ;
    Paganism is a belief in the eminence of the deity in nature and its beliefs are cantered around the natural world, including rituals to recognise and celebrate the years changing.

    Assume this is so, Why is the diety worthy of worship and how do you know that this is so? Is it *necessary* to worship him and why is this so (eg in christianity god is supposed to love you because the bible says so and if because of this you should worship him but you will go to hell if you dont)

    With so many options how does one know which is the right deity (if any) to worship or if one is a polythiest how does one know of these deities existances? Or are they just metaphors and symbols for different forces in nature?

    My impressions are that neo-pagaism is quite pick and mix and has no structure other than what one decides for oneself. Is that accurate or is it just a popular portayal/misconception?

    Is there a moral code ? (eg dont kill and rape people) or is it largely don't do want you wouldn't like done to yourself.

    Is there a church-like hierarchy?

    It it permissible to be pacifist?

    Do you have to be vegetarian?


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    #2
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Phototoxin wrote: »
    The only 'problem' is that it a broad definition leading and from reading the FAQ/Charter I realise that there could be infinte ways to answer a question.

    Well paganism is an umbrella terms so it encompasses a range of ways and traditions hence there are a range of answers for any one question the things is to find the answers which are right for you.
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    Firstly is paganism theistic? I assume if someone worshiped Ra or Isis or Zeus its pagan and theistic.

    Yes that would make them a theistic pagan.
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    Is agnostic paganism possible ? or is it nature /earth/sun/universe worship?

    Yes that would make a person an agnostic pagan and there are polythiestic pagans too.
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    If it 'can be' how does one decided what deities to follow/honour/worship and why?

    That is usually through the process of personal gnosis.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosis
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    Why is the diety worthy of worship and how do you know that this is so? Is it *necessary* to worship him and why is this so

    Well what do you define as worship ?


    Phototoxin wrote: »
    With so many options how does one know which is the right deity (if any) to worship or if one is a polythiest how does one know of these deities existances?

    Again personal gnosis and research.

    Phototoxin wrote: »
    Or are they just metaphors and symbols for different forces in nature?

    Ah this is were you run into hard polytheism and soft polytheism.

    Soft polytheistic will say that all gods are one god/universal force
    and they are all facets of the same.

    Hard polytheistic will say that Gods are Gods and separate with their
    own personalities and identity and you can't swap them out or assume
    that they are the same.
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    My impressions are that neo-pagaism is quite pick and mix and has no structure other than what one decides for oneself. Is that accurate or is it just a popular portayal/misconception?

    Again it depends on the path or traditions which a person chooses or is called to. Some have little or no structure and some have a hell of a lot, but a person must choose which is for them.
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    Is there a moral code ? (eg dont kill and rape people) or is it largely don't do want you wouldn't like done to yourself.

    Again some traditions have very few 'rules' some have many some are down to the individual morality of the person.
    Some have a body of rules/laws one of which is not to draw the notice of the law of the land to themselves, others have a code of honour as to what is expected of a person in good standing, some have both.
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    Is there a church-like hierarchy?

    That depends on the tradition or lack their of that a person chooses.
    Over all is there an encompassing pagan church-like hierarchy ?
    No.
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    It it permissible to be pacifist?

    Yes.
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    Do you have to be vegetarian?

    I am not nor ever have been a vegetarian and I know of other pagans who
    are the same.


  • Options
    #3
    Phototoxin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭Phototoxin


    Well what do you define as worship ?

    assisting in the deitie(s) objectives where/if possible
    Soft polytheistic will say that all gods are one god/universal force
    and they are all facets of the same.

    Hard polytheistic will say that Gods are Gods and separate with their
    own personalities and identity and you can't swap them out or assume
    that they are the same.

    Thanks for clarifying as that's one that's thrown me before. :)

    I am reading on the gnostic things at the moment.


  • Options
    #4
    Talliesin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,314 ✭✭✭Talliesin


    Phototoxin wrote: »
    The only 'problem' is that it a broad definition leading and from reading the FAQ/Charter I realise that there could be infinte ways to answer a question.

    "Paganism" is a broad grouping, rather than a single religion. I'll try to answer both in terms of my own specific path, and generally as well, and also to avoid just duplicating anything Thaedydal has already said.
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    Firstly is paganism theistic? I assume if someone worshiped Ra or Isis or Zeus its pagan and theistic.
    Yep, you're assuming correctly.

    There's considerable difference in this regard, along with just what the divine is believed to be among those who are theistic.

    Personally, I'm "hard polytheistic", meaning I believe in multiple gods and believe them to be truly individual from each other (as opposed to "soft polytheistic" which sees all gods and goddesses as aspects of a universal god and goddess). On the matter of whether there is any omniscient, omnipotent creator deity beyond the gods, I'm agnostic.
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    Is agnostic paganism possible ?
    Yep. In terms "god" as in a single all-powerful being I'm agnostic myself.

    There are also people who believe the gods are archetypes of the collective unconscious, rather than independent beings, which is arguably an atheist position. There are some who don't have a firm belief as to whether this is true or not, which would hence be an agnostic position.
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    or is it nature /earth/sun/universe worship?
    I would say I revere nature, the earth, the sun and indeed the universe, though I'm not sure "worship" would be quite apt. For other Pagans though it may be more appropriate.
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    Or is the answer 'it can be' If it 'can be' how does one decided what deities to follow/honour/worship and why?
    Personally, I have a strong calling to work with those deities I work with. It feels more like they decided on me than I on them.
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    Why is the diety worthy of worship and how do you know that this is so?
    I like them, and they like me :)
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    Is it *necessary* to worship him and why is this so (eg in christianity god is supposed to love you because the bible says so and if because of this you should worship him but you will go to hell if you dont)
    It's not necessary to do any such thing. My gods aren't going to strike you down if you don't worship them.
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    With so many options how does one know which is the right deity (if any) to worship
    Not believing that my gods are all-powerful, all-knowing or even all-good, it's no longer a matter of "right" as in an absolute correct religious practice that everyone should follow.

    I have a relationship with certain gods, and not with others. Much as I have a relationship with certain people, and not with others.
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    or if one is a polythiest how does one know of these deities existances?
    Epistemology is tricky, isn't it?

    I can't say that I know they exist in the same way that I know if I drop a heavy object it will fall to the ground.

    On the other hand, I've had some profound experiences that have me well and truly convinced.

    Before those experiences though, I had belief but not anything one could call knowledge.
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    Or are they just metaphors and symbols for different forces in nature?
    I don't think so, but there are Pagans that do.
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    My impressions are that neo-pagaism is quite pick and mix and has no structure other than what one decides for oneself. Is that accurate or is it just a popular portayal/misconception?
    I'm an unfair judge. To the Mesopagans (Ásatrú, Wicca, and some of the older traditions of witchcraft apart from Wicca) it often seems that Neopaganism is quite pick and mix and lacking in structure ;)

    In fairness to the Neopagans though, that impression comes partly from examining them as a whole rather than as individuals. Just because one is part of a group that includes a lot of different ways of doing things doesn't mean that one is flitting between those ways. That is to say, a given individual could be very structured themselves, while fitting within the more loosely structured grouping.

    The question of structure and its advantages or disadvantages is a matter of difference within Paganism.
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    It it permissible to be pacifist?
    I've as often heard people ask whether it's permissible to not be a pacifist.

    There are Pagan pacifists including some active in anti-war movements.

    There are Pagan soldiers currently on tour in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Personally I would be anti-militarist, but not a pacifist.
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    Do you have to be vegetarian?
    Oh, I'd be out if I couldn't eat meat.

    Some Pagan vegetarians very much associate their vegetarianism with their religion.

    I have a slightly more literal view of the God of the Hunt and the feast of the cull at Samhain :)

    I know of at least one Wiccan tradition were eating meat is a required part of the Samhain ritual.
    Phototoxin wrote: »
    assisting in the deitie(s) objectives where/if possible
    I wouldn't personally say that's quite the same thing as worship, but I do think that is a worthwhile thing. Personally I believe both our gods and us benefit from rites.


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