Environmental effects of Farming

Waffletraktor · 22-11-2019 8:00pm

Mooooo wrote: »

Even if the rain stopped, which isn't likely is there anything you could put on to it a low cost that may take or start growing in Feb, just to do something for the soil? Drained a field here and tbh haven't had enough drying days together to do anything with it since the digger left, I had planned on chancing some cover crop into it but surface is well waterlogged now and a a lot less topsoil than that photo

That's funny dirt, it's grade one non self structuring silt but veg growers would sell their kids to own some. 15-18" of top soil over sand. It's just the 250+mm of rain in the last 60 days has scuppered everyone, they had a self propeled harvester stuck and needed a whinch before they rang the land owner to say they're leaving the rest.Owner will pull a pig tine over it to level out and worry about it in spring. He's an old neighbour/mate of one of the minions.
If you can get a quad and seeder to shake something UNTREATED of the heap of a local merchant would maybe, not worth anything fancy at this stage. Litterally 2/3 of the winter crop acerage is unsown atm over here so barley and wish crops will be worthless next year with everyone set up to flood the place with 1st wheats the following year. It'll take 3 years to get over this year for many farms.

Dakota Dan · 23-11-2019 9:00pm

Anyone see that numpty Liz Bonnin from off the rails who's with the BBC now doing a program on should we be eating meat as its bad for the planet? They fly her out to Brazil no less where she cries on the plane as thousands of cattle are in feed lots below her. It's mainly feedlot factory farming of cattle and trying to pass it off as farming worldwide, absolutely no balance to British farming. She did however get a big backlash from British farmers. She should stick with the fashion shows, suits her so much better.

emaherx · 23-11-2019 9:01pm

Dakota Dan wrote: »

Anyone see that numpty Liz Bonnin from off the rails who's with the BBC now doing a program on should we be eating meat as its bad for the planet? They fly her out to Brazil no less where she cries on the plane as thousands of cattle are in feed lots below her. It's mainly feedlot factory farming of cattle and trying to pass it off as farming worldwide, absolutely no balance to British farming. She did however get a big backlash from British farmers. She should stick with the fashion shows, suits her so much better.

Seems to be the fashion.

Dakota Dan · 23-11-2019 9:12pm

emaherx wrote: »

Seems to be the fashion.

She said she ate meat all her life, I bet

emaherx · 23-11-2019 9:29pm

Dakota Dan wrote: »

She said she ate meat all her life, I bet

Birdnuts · 23-11-2019 10:56pm

I see one of the IFA presidential cadidates reckons forestry should be going into "Designated" sites - that kind of ignorance does the image of Irish farmers no good among anyone who has the slightest knowledge of what the likes of SAC's etc. were established for in the first place - especially in upland areas where most of those sterile destructive spruce plantations have been shoe horned into over recent decades

Dakota Dan · 23-11-2019 11:01pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

I see one of the IFA presidential cadidates reckons forestry should be going into "Designated" sites - that kind of ignorance does the image of Irish farmers no good among anyone who has the slightest knowledge of what the likes of SAC's etc. were established for in the first place - especially in upland areas where most of those sterile destructive spruce plantations have been shoe horned into over recent decades

Which one?

Water John · 23-11-2019 11:08pm

Darragh McCullogh give all three a good bollocking, for their lack of vision in the Farming Indo.

Birdnuts · 23-11-2019 11:15pm

Dakota Dan wrote: »

Which one?

Cullinan

Say my name · 24-11-2019 10:28pm

Dakota Dan wrote: »

Anyone see that numpty Liz Bonnin from off the rails who's with the BBC now doing a program on should we be eating meat as its bad for the planet? They fly her out to Brazil no less where she cries on the plane as thousands of cattle are in feed lots below her. It's mainly feedlot factory farming of cattle and trying to pass it off as farming worldwide, absolutely no balance to British farming. She did however get a big backlash from British farmers. She should stick with the fashion shows, suits her so much better.

I wouldn't be too cut up about anyone telling me or anyone to give up meat or livestock farming to save the planet.
They've zero moral ground to be coming out with such a statement. They're doing more than enough phucking up themselves by their supermarket choices.

https://youtu.be/kJuNcOf_kfE

vistafinder · 25-11-2019 6:09pm

That video is fcuking depressing and it says it all really. Just 10 people trying to protect their own environment.

Its only the tip of the iceberg of whats being done around the world.

It would be interesting to see would the tourists that your man is going spinning around spot a problem without being told.

Total collapse on the way in our lifetime by the look of things.

Say my name · 25-11-2019 7:04pm

vistafinder wrote: »

That video is fcuking depressing and it says it all really. Just 10 people trying to protect their own environment.

Total collapse on the way in our lifetime by the look of things.

It's not all doom and gloom for the future.

Google "Regenerative Farming".
It's not about Meat bad, Veg good or Meat good, Veg bad. It's the marrying together of both systems for the common goal of benefiting soil life, reducing fertilisers, herbicides and pesticides.

The current total veg specialization and bare soil and high use of ferilizers, herbicides and pesticides does no favours to the environment.

But there may be alternatives. Stepping back in time from the current supermarket domination to farmers markets and smaller farmer suppliers.
Otherwise welcome to hell.

One could also say it's the result of consumers becoming urbanized in expecting everyone else to provide their food for them and absolving themselves of all decisions on what they buy and reaping the whirlwind of going along with the supermarket games of price wars.
The beneficiaries are the vitamin, mineral sellers and health and health insurance sectors.

_Brian · 25-11-2019 7:07pm

Say my name wrote: »

It's not all doom and gloom for the future.

Google "Regenerative Farming".
It's not about Meat bad, Veg good or Meat good, Veg bad. It's the marrying together of both systems for the common goal of benefiting soil life, reducing fertilisers, herbicides and pesticides.

The current total veg specialization and bare soil and high use of ferilizers, herbicides and pesticides does no favours to the environment.

But there may be alternatives. Stepping back in time from the current supermarket domination to farmers markets and smaller farmer suppliers.
Otherwise welcome to hell.

One could also say it's the result of consumers becoming urbanized in expecting everyone else to provide their food for them and absolving themselves of all decisions on what they buy and reaping the whirlwind of going along with the supermarket games of price wars.
The beneficiaries are the vitamin, mineral sellers and health and health insurance sectors.

Supermarkets spend millions on marketing themselves as being there to provide what is best for consumers when the truth is that they are plc companies and their first priority is profit for shareholders.

Say my name · 25-11-2019 7:15pm

_Brian wrote: »

Supermarkets spend millions on marketing themselves as being there to provide what is best for consumers when the truth is that they are plc companies and their first priority is profit for shareholders.

They don't have a wide range of choice like they fool you into believing either.
The suppliers have to pay for the shelf space too. So straight away any small suppliers or one's not able to compete are out.
I went into a large retailer lately looking for sea salt. All they had was one brand from a large multinational company sourced from the Mediterranean. This in a island country in the Atlantic.

vistafinder · 25-11-2019 9:16pm

Say my name wrote: »

It's not all doom and gloom for the future.

Stepping back in time from the current supermarket domination to farmers markets and smaller farmer suppliers.
Otherwise welcome to hell.

One could also say it's the result of consumers becoming urbanized.

I have seen some spectacular vids of what people are trying to do alright and you are right about taking steps back but it needs to be done as a whole. Try explaining that tho..

urbanized- brainwashed?

I only just saw an old series of programs about wartime kitchen and gardens by the BBC last week and it was eye opening to say the least. Every piece of every animal was used plus most of their own veg and plus rationing. Surprisingly the over all health of the nation improved even through hard times.

If they had access to the knowledge of regenerative farming back then I bet they would have jumped at it.

The worst part of it was they were trying to sterilize the spent soil by practically cooking it.

djmc · 25-11-2019 9:43pm

I hope it is ok to put this here as I am not selling anything on my site but I just started a blog about the environmental effects of farming as i see them over the last 50 years its too long to type it all here again.
https://blackfieldfarm.com/why-are-cows-bad-for-the-environment/
mods can remove it if they wish. My next article will be about vegans.

vistafinder · 25-11-2019 10:14pm

Bookmarked

Dead right about all this pointing fingers rubbish.

Looking forward to reading more.

djmc · 25-11-2019 10:29pm

Thanks I have only started to learn about websites and blogging lately now that I have time since I stopped milking cows.
Started that site about the farm last week

Capercaillie · 26-11-2019 10:31am

djmc wrote: »

I hope it is ok to put this here as I am not selling anything on my site but I just started a blog about the environmental effects of farming as i see them over the last 50 years its too long to type it all here again.
https://blackfieldfarm.com/why-are-cows-bad-for-the-environment/
mods can remove it if they wish. My next article will be about vegans.

Great piece and would agree with most points. Would differ on scrub being a poor habitat. In wrong place for example where breeding curlew are present it would be bad. However it is a brilliant habitat for a whole range of species. Scrub also succeeds to native forestry which is in very short supply in this Country.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 26-11-2019 11:45am

A piece of the Liz Bonin documentary from the BBC, not sure if it was included or not.

https://twitter.com/BBC/status/1199073371377602566?s=19

It's frightening to think that paddock grazing seems to be a new concept to urban viewers.

Waffletraktor · 26-11-2019 11:56am

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

A piece of the Liz Bonin documentary from the BBC, not sure if it was included or not.

https://twitter.com/BBC/status/1199073371377602566?s=19

It's frightening to think that paddock grazing seems to be a new concept to urban viewers.

How would they know?
Surely it’s common sense people who are well removed from the industry wouldn’t have a clue of modern practices and are easy fodder for vegan misinformation. It’s like farmers calling lab grown meat - test tube baby meat, it is essentials what the stuff is.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 26-11-2019 9:08pm

Waffletraktor wrote: »

How would they know?
Surely it’s common sense people who are well removed from the industry wouldn’t have a clue of modern practices and are easy fodder for vegan misinformation. It’s like farmers calling lab grown meat - test tube baby meat, it is essentials what the stuff is.

Surely, and I'm aware that simple things can easily be overlooked, there was some bit of research done by somebody to try to ensure what they broadcast was correct in a fairly obvious way?

I could understand if the section was on mob grazing or some other non standard farming practice but they were promoting basic rotational grazing as an amazing new concept in grazing management? Something carried out here and elsewhere with decades with great success which could easily be found out by talking to a farmer or public rep for farmers?

To be honest, to me it looks like sloppy research which would lead me to question anything put out by that organisation. It's the BBC which would have /had a very good reputation for factual broadcasting here, not some mickey mouse organisation.

Waffletraktor · 26-11-2019 10:00pm

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

Surely, and I'm aware that simple things can easily be overlooked, there was some bit of research done by somebody to try to ensure what they broadcast was correct in a fairly obvious way?

I could understand if the section was on mob grazing or some other non standard farming practice but they were promoting basic rotational grazing as an amazing new concept in grazing management? Something carried out here and elsewhere with decades with great success which could easily be found out by talking to a farmer or public rep for farmers?

To be honest, to me it looks like sloppy research which would lead me to question anything put out by that organisation. It's the BBC which would have /had a very good reputation for factual broadcasting here, not some mickey mouse organisation.

The BBC is the broadcast arm of the Guardian and is utter garbage that needs to be broken away from licence fee's.
I've litterally watched them do a vegan segment followed by a benefits of halal street food on a local station news feed at Sil's place in London.
Yesterday on Radio4 not sure if you get to listen to bbc radio and try tell me this is neutral and balanced like they claim. 25mins of vegan Bs of how great these ultra processed and test tube meat replacements are great and a sheep on a hill in Wales is destroying the world.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000bl1k

There are people that have never been within 10ft of a cow, how the hell would they know your institutional knowledge.

Base price · 11-12-2019 5:13pm

The latest from Brussles. IFJ article that is subscriber only so I pasted some to give people an idea of how policy is going forward.
"The president of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, will launch the Green Deal in Brussels at noon Irish time on Wednesday. Reports circulating suggest that it will recommend big cuts in the use of pesticides and fertiliser by EU farmers.
The Irish Farmers Journal has heard that cuts of up to 50% on the use of pesticide by 2030 will be suggested in agriculture, with cuts in fertiliser use also proposed and a target set for expansion of organic production."
"The Green Deal will be the theme of this Commission and transcends all sectors of the economy and society. The role of agriculture will be more precisely defined in a farm to fork strategy that will be developed over the coming weeks and published in spring 2020 by the Commission's health department, not its agriculture body."
https://www.farmersjournal.ie/green-deal-to-cut-use-of-pesticides-and-fertilisers-514594

Say my name · 11-12-2019 5:27pm

Base price wrote: »

The latest from Brussles. IFJ article that is subscriber only so I pasted some to give people an idea of how policy is going forward.
"The president of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, will launch the Green Deal in Brussels at noon Irish time on Wednesday. Reports circulating suggest that it will recommend big cuts in the use of pesticides and fertiliser by EU farmers.
The Irish Farmers Journal has heard that cuts of up to 50% on the use of pesticide by 2030 will be suggested in agriculture, with cuts in fertiliser use also proposed and a target set for expansion of organic production."
"The Green Deal will be the theme of this Commission and transcends all sectors of the economy and society. The role of agriculture will be more precisely defined in a farm to fork strategy that will be developed over the coming weeks and published in spring 2020 by the Commission's health department, not its agriculture body."
https://www.farmersjournal.ie/green-deal-to-cut-use-of-pesticides-and-fertilisers-514594

I think since that message was put out from the journal today that there's been ructions from environmental groups and leaks that that may not happen.
Maybe the environmental groups put that out to drum up more support for the talks on their behalf.
Seems to be posturing and scaremongering on both sides going on to rally the troops to kick up before Wednesday.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 11-12-2019 7:50pm

Say my name wrote: »

I think since that message was put out from the journal today that there's been ructions from environmental groups and leaks that that may not happen.
Maybe the environmental groups put that out to drum up more support for the talks on their behalf.
Seems to be posturing and scaremongering on both sides going on to rally the troops to kick up before Wednesday.

Next Wednesday?

Or am I missing something?

_Brian · 11-12-2019 8:09pm

What price would straw be if they started actually moving cattle off slats and onto straw beds again?

Say my name · 11-12-2019 8:23pm

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

Next Wednesday?

Or am I missing something?

It's when this new deal will be finalized and be announced.

In the meantime there's last minute posturing and reporting by both sides. Farmers journal reporting the worst case scenario to get the farmers riled up and appeal to the politicians and the environmentalists reporting that things are not going their way to get more support from political influencers.
The epa bringing out the water report was timed to perfection to show up the EU agricultural minister in his home country right before the discussions.

Kerry, Cork and Wexford came out of the report reasonably well.

Say my name · 11-12-2019 8:31pm

_Brian wrote: »

What price would straw be if they started actually moving cattle off slats and onto straw beds again?

The amounts needed wouldn't be there anymore.
The question should be what would farmers be willing to pay and would the labour be there to draw, bed every day and clean out as opposed to slats.

gozunda · 11-12-2019 8:41pm

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

Next Wednesday?Or am I missing something?

Couldn't help thinking when listening to the News report that the announcement of the EU 'Green New Deal' allegedly designed to fix all issues - environmental, societal plus to provide employment for all - by the new EU Commisioner (who happens to be the ex German defence minister) of the previous promotion of a new 'Reich' and the promises of a great new future ...

Funny thing is that the new EU commissioner claimed the GND is being adopted in alignment with 'popular opinion'. Funny thing is I dont remember been asked to vote on it though. Call me sceptical....

Buford T. Justice XIX · 11-12-2019 8:54pm

gozunda wrote: »

Couldn't help thinking when listening to the News report that the announcement of the EU 'Green New Deal' alledgedly designed to fix all issues and to provide employment for all - by the new EU Commisioner (who happens to be the ex German defence minister) of the previous promotion of a new 'Reich' and the promises of a great new future ...

Funny thing is that the new EU commissioner claimed the GND is being adopted in alignment with 'popular opinion'. Funny thing is I dont remember been asked to vote on it though. Call me sceptical....

You'll have to subscribe to get a name change, sceptical:pac:

Tbh, there isn't a whole lot more squeezing they can do without paying for it all, up front and in full.

I'll be watching for any measures to reduce CO2 levels, actual policies rather than 'we must do X soon'. But I think we're still a few years away from the seriousness of the situation we're in to register the need to do something to result in anything other than platitudes, tbh.

Water John · 11-12-2019 10:11pm

The lad starting the buffalo dairy herd in Scotland had a gantry line overhead that chopped the straw down on the pens.
Lots of strawchoppers n the market. There is more straw now as the mushroom ind is gone. The herd recently visited by Macra in North Cork had 300 cows straw bedded.
In organic we have 50/50 slats and straw bed. They don't use a massive amount of straw TBH as they seem to muck when they go to feed, which is on the slats.
Never lie on the slats anymore. These are beef cattle.

One lad with 65 dairy cows had not cleaned out the shed at all over the winter as he had no holding place for the dung. He got on fine. Normally you'd clean it out every 4/5 weeks IWT.

It really is important to get it into the mainstream that a farm that has reached a plateaux of stock is no longer adding to the air pollution levels. This is since the methane has a life of about 10 years.

toleratethis · 11-12-2019 11:58pm

_Brian wrote: »

What price would straw be if they started actually moving cattle off slats and onto straw beds again?

For bedding use woodchip, can grow and chip your own. It can be composted, then used again as bedding like peat, then land spread.

Lads fret who don't like to look outside of a particular system, everything change is a threat instead of an opportunity then.

alps · 12-12-2019 12:25am

toleratethis wrote: »

For bedding use woodchip, can grow and chip your own. It can be composted, then used again as bedding like peat, then land spread.

Lads fret who don't like to look outside of a particular system, everything change is a threat instead of an opportunity then.

I'd question the effects of spreading woodchip on land?

toleratethis · 12-12-2019 12:27am

alps wrote: »

I'd question the effects of spreading woodchip on land?

Compost.

Say my name · 12-12-2019 12:45am

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

Next Wednesday?

Or am I missing something?

Oh phuck! Today is Wednesday!!

Ah sure there'll soon be another Wednesday.

https://twitter.com/ARC2020eu/status/1204767317525254144?s=20

gozunda · 12-12-2019 12:55am

alps wrote: »

I'd question the effects of spreading woodchip on land?

It can actively deplete nitrogen from the soil - so wood chip needs to be fully composted before spreading. Even then soils will need to be checked on an ongoing basis. Miscantus or oil seedrape breaks down easier so not do much an issue afaik.

Say my name · 12-12-2019 1:12am

Water John I'm pretty sure Walsh's mushrooms in gorey are still in business.
I'm open to correction though.

https://www.walshmushrooms.com/

alps · 12-12-2019 1:26am

toleratethis wrote: »

Compost.

Yes, but yard with runoff collection etc required, and I'm not sure it will have rotted by the following winter.

Capercaillie · 12-12-2019 7:48am

Can burn it as well. I used to work for farmer that bedded with woodchip, feedlot herd fed ad lib meal (bulls). After winter he used to clear out shed and with his own "turf hopper" made sods of woodchip/dung sods. He would leave to dry out in shed and footed it like turf sods. He then sold it, he told people it burnt hotter than coal.

_Brian · 12-12-2019 8:12am

Say my name wrote: »

The amounts needed wouldn't be there anymore.
The question should be what would farmers be willing to pay and would the labour be there to draw, bed every day and clean out as opposed to slats.

Surely substantially more would be needed than is used at present. If even 20% of cattle cake off slats it would increase consumption considerable.

As for costs, the bigger question is will consumers and factories pay more for the animals. Farmers can’t be expected to produce more expensive animals into a commodity system.

Gawddawggonnit · 12-12-2019 8:22am

They’ve stopped giving planning permission for slats in my neck of the woods. This decision is in place with several years.
I went for planning to slat a cubicle shed 3yrs ago and was refused on the grounds that slurry is ‘dangerous and volatile’...
Animals are warmer and cleaner on straw.

* They’re giving permission for slats in duck houses, but you must have enough storage for 365 days.

Bullocks · 12-12-2019 8:28am

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

They’ve stopped giving planning permission for slats in my neck of the woods. This decision is in place with several years.
I went for planning to slat a cubicle shed 3yrs ago and was refused on the grounds that slurry is ‘dangerous and volatile’...
Animals are warmer and cleaner on straw.

I said it here a few times that in West of Ireland where I am slats should never have been given permission let alone grants

Say my name · 12-12-2019 9:34am

_Brian wrote: »

Surely substantially more would be needed than is used at present. If even 20% of cattle cake off slats it would increase consumption considerable.

That was my point, the straw amounts needed wouldn't be there anymore.
With specialization there's not many mixed farms left and the specialized tillage farmers that are there have diversified away from straw crops to maize and fodder beet. And these tillage farmers are thousands of acres big now. The small guys are gone, retired or are setting the land to these big guys. These big guys all have choppers on the combines and don't care much for straw sales. Rathering instead leave residue on the ground for soil health.
And before anyone says straw for dung arrangement that's a local solution. I can't see dung being drew from mayo to athy.

toleratethis · 12-12-2019 11:35am

alps wrote: »

Yes, but yard with runoff collection etc required, and I'm not sure it will have rotted by the following winter.

Was it Henry Ford said, whether you think you can or cannot you're right.

wrangler · 12-12-2019 11:37am

Bullocks wrote: »

I said it here a few times that in West of Ireland where I am slats should never have been given permission let alone grants

Why is that, they're very suitable for parttime farmers, labour saving etc

_Brian · 12-12-2019 2:21pm

If miscanthus was still being grown would it be suitable or affordable for bedding ?

Bullocks · 12-12-2019 3:08pm

wrangler wrote: »

Why is that, they're very suitable for parttime farmers, labour saving etc

What's the difference in suitability for part timers over full timers? I'm sure both want to be efficient.....
I've seen slats around here where lads have very little land that can be spread even with dry conditions.
Rough grazing or hill type land where the tractor and tank cannot travel got grants to put in tanks. Madness in my opinion

Bullocks · 12-12-2019 3:09pm

_Brian wrote: »

If miscanthus was still being grown would it be suitable or affordable for bedding ?

I don't know but I know a lad using mulch from landscapers that has bits of everything in it and it's working ok

wrangler · 12-12-2019 4:09pm

Bullocks wrote: »

What's the difference in suitability for part timers over full timers? I'm sure both want to be efficient.....
I've seen slats around here where lads have very little land that can be spread even with dry conditions.
Rough grazing or hill type land where the tractor and tank cannot travel got grants to put in tanks. Madness in my opinion

Part timers would be more feeding at night/morning in the dark, more convenient to have them in.
they'd have to have silage ground that they'd get slurry onto

Environmental effects of Farming

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