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Old trailer laws

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  • 30-11-2020 5:11pm
    #1
    garv123
    Registered Users Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭


    Hoping someone might be able to help me out here.
    We have an old trailer here that was built in the late 90s it's been sitting there with a while with no use.
    I've decided to take it and do a bit of a restoration. It's frame work is solid and no welding required, it's a double axle 8x4 trailer.

    What are the rules of using it on the road if it has no weight/manufacture stamp? The only info I could find was on post 2012 manufactured trailers.


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    #2
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    garv123 wrote: »
    Hoping someone might be able to help me out here.
    We have an old trailer here that was built in the late 90s it's been sitting there with a while with no use.
    I've decided to take it and do a bit of a restoration. It's frame work is solid and no welding required, it's a double axle 8x4 trailer.

    What are the rules of using it on the road if it has no weight/manufacture stamp? The only info I could find was on post 2012 manufactured trailers.

    I think you found right info.
    New laws only apply to trailers manufactured after post 2012.

    Considering your trailer was manufactured in the 90's you are free to use it as it is.


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    #3
    garv123
    Registered Users Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭garv123


    So if someone makes a new trailer they can just claim it was made pre 2012 and there's no regulations?


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    #4
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    garv123 wrote: »
    So if someone makes a new trailer they can just claim it was made pre 2012 and there's no regulations?

    That would be lying but I assume you can claim anything you want ;)


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    #5
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874


    Wasn't aware of this,
    So this means someone can buy a pre 2012 trailer without issue?


    My Drivers licence was issued in the mid 90's,
    I thought there was a year when it changed over to only allowing pulling a trailer of max 750kgs, and prior to that it was either included or there were no restrictions.
    Does the 750kg limit mean the total weight of the trailer or the trailer and all contents?



    I know an a previous instance of renewing my 10yr licence, a category was removed and I got it re-instated after a bit of discussion at the desk (when they had offices to attend).
    I'm not sure if I should have had BE on my licence all along, it hasn't been there, but the original issue date is there.


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    #6
    garv123
    Registered Users Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭garv123


    1874 wrote: »
    Wasn't aware of this,
    So this means someone can buy a pre 2012 trailer without issue?


    My Drivers licence was issued in the mid 90's,
    I thought there was a year when it changed over to only allowing pulling a trailer of max 750kgs, and prior to that it was either included or there were no restrictions.
    Does the 750kg limit mean the total weight of the trailer or the trailer and all contents?



    I know an a previous instance of renewing my 10yr licence, a category was removed and I got it re-instated after a bit of discussion at the desk (when they had offices to attend).
    I'm not sure if I should have had BE on my licence all along, it hasn't been there, but the original issue date is there.

    My understanding is
    1. you can be a combined weight of vehicle and trailer and contents of 3500kg
    Eg my l200 is 2000kg so my trailer and load can be a combined load of 1500kg.

    2. If my vehicle is heavy like a camper and I can go over the 3500kg but the trailer and contents can only way 750kg.
    Eg camper weighing 3000kg can pull a trailer and contents weighing no more than 750kg.

    The vehicle must be rated to pull these loads also.


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    #7
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874


    garv123 wrote: »
    My understanding is
    1. you can be a combined weight of vehicle and trailer and contents of 3500kg
    Eg my l200 is 2000kg so my trailer and load can be a combined load of 1500kg.

    2. If my vehicle is heavy like a camper and I can go over the 3500kg but the trailer and contents can only way 750kg.
    Eg camper weighing 3000kg can pull a trailer and contents weighing no more than 750kg.

    The vehicle must be rated to pull these loads also.


    So a potentially larger heavier vehicle more suited to towing can possibly be limited to the 750kg, while a car could tow a trailer that exceeds that.
    Doesn't seem like they thought that one out well,


    Any idea does an Iveco daily come under the B licence category? is it GVW or kerb weight?


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    #8
    garv123
    Registered Users Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭garv123


    1874 wrote: »
    So a potentially larger heavier vehicle more suited to towing can possibly be limited to the 750kg, while a car could tow a trailer that exceeds that.
    Doesn't seem like they thought that one out well,


    Any idea does an Iveco daily come under the B licence category? is it GVW or kerb weight?
    Yeah I know lads who could pull cars on trailers with estate cars legally but couldn't do it with a 4x4.

    Cat B. But gvw cannot exceed 3.5ton..


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    #9
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    1874 wrote: »
    Wasn't aware of this,
    So this means someone can buy a pre 2012 trailer without issue?

    Yes

    My Drivers licence was issued in the mid 90's,
    I thought there was a year when it changed over to only allowing pulling a trailer of max 750kgs, and prior to that it was either included or there were no restrictions.
    Does the 750kg limit mean the total weight of the trailer or the trailer and all contents?
    Limit to 750kg trailer on category B licence applies to D.G.V.W (design gross vehicle weight). So it's not really "trailer and all contents" but rather "trailer own weight and maximum possible load" - meaning i.e. trailer weight 300kg and designed to carry 450kg. Such trailer even if empty is considered to be 750kg trailer.

    However in addition to allowing towing trailer with D.G.V.W of 750kg with B licence, they allow to tow heavier trailers on B licence provided the sum of D.G.V.W of car + trailer doesn't exceed 3500kg.



    I know an a previous instance of renewing my 10yr licence, a category was removed and I got it re-instated after a bit of discussion at the desk (when they had offices to attend).
    I'm not sure if I should have had BE on my licence all along, it hasn't been there, but the original issue date is there.
    Well once you have BE, you don't need to worry about it then.


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    #10
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    1874 wrote: »
    So a potentially larger heavier vehicle more suited to towing can possibly be limited to the 750kg, while a car could tow a trailer that exceeds that.
    Doesn't seem like they thought that one out well,

    Well you're still limited by car's ability to tow specified by manucaturer.
    I.e. a car with D.G.V.W of 1600kg could potentially tow a 1900kg trailer and still not exceed 3500kg limit. But in vast majority of cases such car would be about 1200kg kerb weight, with 400kg loading capacity and specified by manufacturer as able to tow trailers up to 1100kg (just an example) - so towing 1900kg would be not possible even if driving licensing requirement would allow it.

    Any idea does an Iveco daily come under the B licence category? is it GVW or kerb weight?

    In majority of cases it would having D.G.V.W of no more than 3500kg.
    Heavier Iveco dailys would be treated as trucks requiring truck licence (cat. C) as well as tachograph, speed limiter, and and application for licence for transport of good by the owner which also requires owner (or anyone hired by him) to hold current transport manager CPC qualification.
    Too much hassle in most cases.


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    #11
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874


    CiniO wrote: »
    1874 wrote: »
    Wasn't aware of this,
    So this means someone can buy a pre 2012 trailer without issue?

    Yes



    Limit to 750kg trailer on category B licence applies to D.G.V.W (design gross vehicle weight). So it's not really "trailer and all contents" but rather "trailer own weight and maximum possible load" - meaning i.e. trailer weight 300kg and designed to carry 450kg. Such trailer even if empty is considered to be 750kg trailer.

    However in addition to allowing towing trailer with D.G.V.W of 750kg with B licence, they allow to tow heavier trailers on B licence provided the sum of D.G.V.W of car + trailer doesn't exceed 3500kg.

    Well once you have BE, you don't need to worry about it then.

    I dont have BE on my licence, given it was issued in the mid 90's Im wondering if it should have been there all along, I cant find a date on the RSA website to see if there was a date that this changed, ie if BE was given along with the B licence when it is obtained.


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    #12
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    1874 wrote: »
    CiniO wrote: »

    I dont have BE on my licence, given it was issued in the mid 90's Im wondering if it should have been there all along, I cant find a date on the RSA website to see if there was a date that this changed, ie if BE was given along with the B licence when it is obtained.

    Well if you don't have it then you don't have it. Nothing really you can do about it now, except from passing a driving test.


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    #13
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874


    CiniO wrote: »
    1874 wrote: »

    Well if you don't have it then you don't have it. Nothing really you can do about it now, except from passing a driving test.


    Well, I find that a bit ridiculous, to pass a driving test, when I have a B licence for decades and am allowed pull a trailer anyway, and looking at the RSA website, there isnt a significant difference, except for the weight you are allowed tow.
    Should be a web/PC based test for adding the E in my opinion


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    #14
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users Posts: 24,960 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    CiniO wrote: »
    ...Heavier Iveco dailys would be treated as trucks requiring truck licence (cat. C)...
    A 'C1' licence would cover heavy vans. A 'C' licence is only required at 7,500kgs+.
    1874 wrote: »
    ...I dont have BE on my licence, given it was issued in the mid 90's Im wondering if it should have been there all along, I cant find a date on the RSA website to see if there was a date that this changed, ie if BE was given along with the B licence when it is obtained.
    I'm open to correction but I think the automatic issuing of BE with a B ended in 1989.


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    #15
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    1874 wrote: »
    CiniO wrote: »


    Well, I find that a bit ridiculous, to pass a driving test, when I have a B licence for decades and am allowed pull a trailer anyway, and looking at the RSA website, there isnt a significant difference, except for the weight you are allowed tow.
    Should be a web/PC based test for adding the E in my opinion

    Hmm. Driving licnece rules are pretty much unified all across EU and even further than that, so I don't think Irish government had much of a choice in that matter.


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    #16
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users Posts: 24,960 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    1874 wrote: »
    ...Well, I find that a bit ridiculous, to pass a driving test, when I have a B licence for decades and am allowed pull a trailer anyway..
    You may only tow a light trailer. A BE would allow you to tow heavier trailers like horse boxes.

    ..Should be a web/PC based test for adding the E in my opinion
    So you think someone with a 'C' licence should be able to go out and drive an 'artic' with a PC based test???


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    #17
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Wishbone Ash wrote: »
    A 'C1' licence would cover heavy vans. A 'C' licence is only required at 7,500kgs+.

    It would allright. But to be honest, I doubt many people hold such licence (except from those which got it automatically with their B licence especially in UK).

    It's definitely not the most popular licence category to get.
    I'd imainge vast majority of people wishing to go for anything heavier than 3500tonne would go for C instead of C1.


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    #18
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users Posts: 24,960 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    CiniO wrote: »
    It would allright. But to be honest, I doubt many people hold such licence (except from those which got it automatically with their B licence especially in UK).

    It's definitely not the most popular licence category to get.
    I'd imainge vast majority of people wishing to go for anything heavier than 3500tonne would go for C instead of C1.
    Yes, I agree totally. I was just making the point that it wasn't necessary to have a 'C'. Two friends of mine did the 'C1' test to cover them for heavy motorhomes. They had zero interest in doing the 'C'.

    (BTW- the 'D1E' is the least populat test. I was going through the stats a few years ago and it averaged 3 per year nationally.)


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    #19
    bigroad
    Registered Users Posts: 4,055 ✭✭✭bigroad


    So in saying you can split give of 3500kg between car and trailer on a b licence.
    If someone had a c1 licence max give of 7500kg.Then a combination of (large van) 4000gvw and trailer of 3500gvw could be used equalling 7500kg total train weight.


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    #20
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    bigroad wrote: »
    So in saying you can split give of 3500kg between car and trailer on a b licence.
    True
    If someone had a c1 licence max give of 7500kg.Then a combination of (large van) 4000gvw and trailer of 3500gvw could be used equalling 7500kg total train weight.
    Not true.


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    #21
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Wishbone Ash wrote: »
    Yes, I agree totally. I was just making the point that it wasn't necessary to have a 'C'. Two friends of mine did the 'C1' test to cover them for heavy motorhomes. They had zero interest in doing the 'C'.

    (BTW- the 'D1E' is the least populat test. I was going through the stats a few years ago and it averaged 3 per year nationally.)


    That's interesting.
    But I'm actually surprised about D1E being so little popular.
    I would imagine DE would be way less popular, as firstly lots of people who decide to get D licence would already have C licence beforehand. And once you hold C and D, and pass CE test then you automatically get DE. And I'm sure CE is much more widespread among driving schools than DE. Also it's so rare seeing a large bus towing a trailer... That's why I would put my bet on DE as least popular category to pass test for. But I absolutely don't doubt your stats.


    D1E though on the other hand I would thing to be quite desirable. You see them transit minibuses with trailers, especially in outdoors/adventure centres, bike hire companies, kayaking/surfing trip organisers etc...

    I myself hold B,C,D categories, and I was driving a coach a minibus quite regularly for work, and there were few occasions where there was a need to tow a trailer with a minibus which I couldn't do legally without having D1E or DE licence.


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    #22
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,294 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    CiniO wrote: »
    I myself hold B,C,D categories, and I was driving a coach a minibus quite regularly for work, and there were few occasions where there was a need to tow a trailer with a minibus which I couldn't do legally without having D1E or DE licence.
    Can you not tow a 750 kg DGVW trailer with any category - 750 kg would be enough for many leisure uses e.g. a minibus or motorhome towing a trailer of canoes or bicycles or a small/medium RIB (boat)


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    #23
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,915 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    bigroad wrote: »
    So in saying you can split give of 3500kg between car and trailer on a b licence.
    If someone had a c1 licence max give of 7500kg.Then a combination of (large van) 4000gvw and trailer of 3500gvw could be used equalling 7500kg total train weight.

    Anything above B and your limited to 750kg MAM of the trailer if you don't have E beside it.
    C Vehicles (other than work vehicles or land tractors) having a MAM¹ exceeding 3,500 kg, designed and constructed for the carriage of no more than eight passengers in addition to the driver and where the MAM¹ of the trailer is not greater than 750 kg. 21 years or 18 with CPC
    CE Combination of drawing vehicles in category C and trailer where the MAM¹ of the trailer is greater than 750 kg. 21 years or 18 with CPC
    C1 Vehicles in category C having a MAM¹ weight not exceeding 7,500 kg, designed and constructed for the carriage of no more than eight passengers in addition to the driver and where the MAM¹ of the trailer is not greater than 750 kg 18 years
    C1E
    Combination of drawing vehicles in category C1 and trailer where the MAM¹ of the trailer is greater than 750 kg and where the MAM¹ of the drawing vehicle and trailer combined does not exceed 12,000 kg.
    Combination of drawing vehicles in category B with trailer where the MAM¹ of the trailer is greater than 3,500 kg and where the MAM¹ of the drawing vehicle and trailer combined does not exceed 12,000 kg.
    18 years
    D Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of more than eight passengers in addition to the driver and where the MAM¹ of the trailer is not greater than 750 kg. 24 years or 21 years with CPC
    DE Combination of drawing vehicles in category D and trailer where the MAM¹ of the trailer is greater than 750 kg. 24 years or 21 years with CPC
    D1 Vehicles in category D designed and constructed for the carriage of not more than sixteen passengers in addition to the driver with a maximum length not exceeding 8 metres and where the MAM¹ of the trailer is not greater than 750 kg. 21 years
    D1E Combination of drawing vehicles in category D1 and trailer where the MAM¹ of the trailer is greater than 750 kg. 21 years


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    #24
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    Can you not tow a 750 kg DGVW trailer with any category -
    True
    750 kg would be enough for many leisure uses e.g. a minibus or motorhome towing a trailer of canoes or bicycles or a small/medium RIB (boat)

    Majority of 750kg trailers would be small unbraked ones with loading capacity hardly every exceeding 400-450kg.
    While this could be enough for few bikes few kayaks, usually trailers used for that are much bigger and therefore have brakes and higher D.G.V.W.

    Generally speaking most trailers which would be big enough to take canoes, bikes, etc even if light enough and carrying light bikes/caones which in total don't exceed 750kg, would be rated to much higher D.G.V.W making it unable to tow them with minibus without D1E even if real weight with cargo is below 750kg.



    F.e. I have a small Ifor Williams BoxVan 8x4 single axle. It's rated by manufacturer for D.G.V.W of 1400kg, so while I can tow it with my car on B licence, but I can't tow it with minibus only on D1 or D. Here D1E is a must.


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    #25
    9935452
    Registered Users Posts: 2,750 ✭✭✭9935452


    CiniO wrote: »
    1874 wrote: »

    Well if you don't have it then you don't have it. Nothing really you can do about it now, except from passing a driving test.

    Probably better to ask the lads in the ndls if they are entitled to the license.

    I got a scooter license added to my license 20 years after doing the car driving test.
    I was entitled to it all along but never ticked the box for it .
    Afaik you dont get it automatically anymore when you pass your car test


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