Would you agree to 80% income tax if everything was free?

16-10-2019 11:58am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

They can work in unison with each other, it’s not one or the other

Yeah, just like we have now.

Antares35 · 16-10-2019 11:58am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

It would be very low cost, 10 euro a day to cover cleaning etc

So how much would the people working in the car rental place be earning? Remember they only get to keep 20% of it.

dxhound2005 · 16-10-2019 11:59am

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

They can work in unison with each other, it’s not one or the other

What would be the incentive for private business to take part in a Communist regime?

16-10-2019 12:00pm

Antares35 wrote: »

So how much would the people working in the car rental place be earning? Remember they only get to keep 20% of it.

And do corporations pay 80% tax also, or do we all incorporate.

Have companies paying 80% tax and you'll soon see how quickly you can Zimbabwe your economy. :pac:

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 12:01pm

There’s a news article today about 1.5 billion being spent on wind turbines off the Dublin coast to provide enough electricity for 600,000 houses. With the extra taxes, I would spend 15 billion on similar projects around the coast of Ireland so that everyone had free electricity. There’s another bill gone for ye.

dxhound2005 · 16-10-2019 12:03pm

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

There’s a news article today about 1.5 billion being spent on wind turbines off the Dublin coast to provide enough electricity for 600,000 houses. With the extra taxes, I would spend 15 billion on similar projects around the coast of Ireland so that everyone had free electricity. There’s another bill gone for ye.

What would happen to the workers who send out the bills if everything is free?

Geuze · 16-10-2019 12:04pm

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

Obviously not everything being free, but the big ticket items like healthcare, education, transport, childcare, property tax, motor tax, tv licenses, bin charges etc.

Also you would only have to work 4 days a week.

The 80% tax would be on all income regardless of what you earn. Other taxes like Prsi and usc would be scrapped.

Scrapping all the indirect taxes and charges and simply having one easy to calculate tax would mean the state could make massive efficiency gains by getting rid of a ton of paper pushing public sector employees.

The state would have tens of billions extra each year to spend on hospitals, better public transport etc.

Would you go for it? I think I would.

Other taxes are superior to income tax.

They cause less deadweight losses.

We need to reduce the MTR faced by average earners, and increase other taxes.

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 12:04pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What would happen to the workers who send out the bills if everything is free?

They get redeployed to the car rental service

Ready4Boarding · 16-10-2019 12:06pm

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

Scrapping all the indirect taxes and charges and simply having one easy to calculate tax would mean the state could make massive efficiency gains by getting rid of a ton of paper pushing public sector employees.

I think you over-estimate the cost of the administration of tax - not insignificant but not massive. And it's been shown that assessing income tax is anything but simple.

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

All communist systems to date weren’t true communist systems, they were corrupt and broken systems so you can’t point to them and say it doesn’t work

No system is ever pure. There will always be some way of making it truer. I'm somewhat sympathetic to defence of communism on the grounds that it has never been sincerely implemented, but its unmitigated failure should at least cause you to pause to consider whether it may be inherently unstable or prone to authoritarianism.

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

Your forgetting we only pay such high rent and high mortgage rates and high cost of living because people have that disposable income available. If it was significantly reduced tomorrow what do you think would happen to the cost of living in Ireland? Do you think it would go up or down? Look at what the rest of Europe pays for housing and living costs compared to us!

Assuming foreign investment was insulated (which might have detrimental consequences on the economy), the housing market would deflate. But imports would remain as expensive. And considering that there is hardly any commodity in Ireland that doesn't have foreign inputs in its manufacture, you over-estimate the reduction in cost of living.

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

I’ve already said with the massive increase in spending power the government would have they would start building large scale social housing, which would bring down the cost of housing for everyone

You place too much trust in the government to spend the money effectively. Even if the government were significantly more able than ours, it's still naive to think that money dissolves the complexity of running a state. And because the population would be making so big a sacrifice in return for excellent public services, the potential for social unrest in the near-inevitable event that the services aren't as desierd would be considerable.

Throughout all your responses you display a tendency to underestimate the challenges that is characteristic of the socialist left. Only when socialism admits the extreme challenge and risk of its implementation will I consider supporting the cause.

dxhound2005 · 16-10-2019 12:07pm

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

They get redeployed to the car rental service

Following a spell in a re-education camp.

Antares35 · 16-10-2019 12:07pm

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

They get redeployed to the car rental service

Which is insolvent because it only receives payment of ten euro a day per car to cover all the costs of running the business including buying the cars, paying overheads, insurance, cleaning etc.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 16-10-2019 12:12pm

Let me get this straight — I earn €30k, pay €24k in tax, which leaves me €115 weekly after tax. Out of that, I have to pay €10 a day to rent a car from Comrade Car Rentals. So now I'm down to €45 a week?

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 12:13pm

Ready4Boarding wrote: »

I think you over-estimate the cost of the administration of tax - not insignificant but not massive. And it's been shown that assessing income tax is anything but simple.

No system is ever pure. There will always be some way of making it truer. I'm somewhat sympathetic to defence of communism on the grounds that it has never been sincerely implemented, but its unmitigated failure should at least cause you to pause to consider whether it may be inherently unstable or prone to authoritarianism.

Assuming foreign investment was insulated (which might have detrimental consequences on the economy), the housing market would deflate. But imports would remain as expensive. And considering that there is hardly any commodity in Ireland that doesn't have foreign inputs in its manufacture, you over-estimate the reduction in cost of living.

Throughout all your responses you display a tendency to underestimate the challenges that is characteristic of the socialist left. Only when socialism admits the extreme challenge and risk of its implementation will I consider supporting the cause.

Look how broken our current system is. Non functioning health service, a housing market that financially cripples everyone, ridiculous child care costs, an upcoming pension time bomb. There is a massive gap between the haves and the have nots. The wealth divide is getting bigger and bigger every year. Aren’t they reason enough for trying something new?

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 12:15pm

Mary Blue Watchband wrote: »

Let me get this straight — I earn €30k, pay €24k in tax, which leaves me €115 weekly after tax. Out of that, I have to pay €10 a day to rent a car from Comrade Car Rentals. So now I'm down to €45 a week?

You can take the free public transport or else pay for car rental, your choice.

dxhound2005 · 16-10-2019 12:15pm

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

Look how broken our current system is. Non functioning health service, a housing market that financially cripples everyone, ridiculous child care costs, an upcoming pension time bomb. There is a massive gap between the haves and the have nots. The wealth divide is getting bigger and bigger every year. Aren’t they reason enough for trying something new?

I'm here today because I have a hospital appointment later. Usually once or twice a year. It works fine for me. As it did when I had an accident last year. Have you some personal experience of the "non functioning" health services?

16-10-2019 12:15pm

Mary Blue Watchband wrote: »

Let me get this straight — I earn €30k, pay €24k in tax, which leaves me €115 weekly after tax. Out of that, I have to pay €10 a day to rent a car from Comrade Car Rentals. So now I'm down to €45 a week?

No. You'll have €65 per week. Car driving is banned at the weekends. See, we're looking after you comrade.

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 12:16pm

Antares35 wrote: »

Which is insolvent because it only receives payment of ten euro a day per car to cover all the costs of running the business including buying the cars, paying overheads, insurance, cleaning etc.

It’s state subsidised, just like public transport is now.

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 12:20pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I'm here today because I have a hospital appointment later. Usually once or twice a year. It works fine for me. As it did when I had an accident last year. Have you some personal experience of the "non functioning" health services?

I know if I had to go to the emergency department for whatever reason I would be put on a trolley in the waiting room for about 36 hours.

dxhound2005 · 16-10-2019 12:21pm

There was an experiment in 1977 which did away with property tax, water charges, bin charges and road/motor tax. Fianna Fail got the biggest majority in the history of the state when they proposed it.

The only thing they forgot to tell the people was that income tax would be 60% within a couple of years. Anyone old enough will remember the tax marches which dwarfed anything seen recently against water charges. The country has been trying to recover from this disaster to local funding since.

dxhound2005 · 16-10-2019 12:22pm

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

I know if I had to go to the emergency department for whatever reason I would be put on a trolley in the waiting room for about 36 hours.

You are being taken in by propaganda.

antix80 · 16-10-2019 12:23pm

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

Obviously not everything being free, but the big ticket items like healthcare, education, transport, childcare, property tax, motor tax, tv licenses, bin charges etc.

Also you would only have to work 4 days a week.

Does it include rent/mortgage repayments, or is that what the 20% I'm left with is meant to cover?
When you say "transport".. does that mean the cost of replacing my car and putting fuel in it? Or does it just cover a smelly, overcrowded bus shuttling me from home to work?
By healthcare, do you mean 2 years waiting list for a "non-urgent" consultation and then waiting another 12 months for a "non-urgent" follow-up MRI?

Keep your free stuff, just don't expect me to pay for it!

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 16-10-2019 12:23pm

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

Look how broken our current system is. Non functioning health service...

To fund the HSE, a dysfunctional state monopoly, taxpayers pour billions annually into a black hole. Numerous other state-run services are run in a similarly costly, bureaucratic, and ineffective manner, with thousands of overpaid and unaccountable employees delivering relatively little in return for all the cost.

Your solution to this broken system is to turn everything into a state monopoly and assume, all evidence to the contrary, that this will make things better.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or just incredibly naive.

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 12:24pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There was an experiment in 1977 which did away with property tax, water charges, bin charges and road/motor tax. Fianna Fail got the biggest majority in the history of the state when they proposed it.

The only thing they forgot to tell the people was that income tax would be 60% within a couple of years. Anyone old enough will remember the tax marches which dwarfed anything seen recently against water charges. The country has been trying to recover from this disaster to local funding since.

Well obviously if you tell people they are getting loads of benefits but forget to tell them about the increase in tax they are going to be furious

dxhound2005 · 16-10-2019 12:26pm

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

Well obviously if you tell people they are getting loads of benefits but forget to tell them about the increase in tax they are going to be furious

It shows that even a slimmed down version of your overhaul of public finances, is a failure.

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 12:27pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It shows that even a slimmed down version of your overhaul of public finances, is a failure.

No it shows if you are dishonest you will fail, that’s all

Antares35 · 16-10-2019 12:27pm

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

You can take the free public transport or else pay for car rental, your choice.

Considering how dire the paid system is, I wouldn't be holding out much hope for quality in a free one.

Imagine the bus drivers, driving people around all day, then handing over 80% of their salary, left with 20% which they can spend on a car...or take a bus :pac:

begsbyOnaTrain · 16-10-2019 12:30pm

More than 20% of our monthly takehome goes into savings/investments. So no, sounds like a really bad deal tbh.

dxhound2005 · 16-10-2019 12:30pm

Vegetable Soup wrote: »

One thing is for certain, there will be unintended consequences. Economies are complex, tinker with them at your peril.

As a rule of thumb the question I ask myself is this, will people be more or less productive if this is implemented?

With less incentive to work overall people would be less productive. Some of the largest productivity gains come from people trying to become rich. If it is much more difficult to become rich society would become poorer. Less products and services produced, less quality of products and services and less innovation.

An unintended consequence would probably be that 80% tax would not be sufficient, and it could go as high as 90%. Unless someone has worked it out, it seems like a figure plucked from the air.

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 12:32pm

Vegetable Soup wrote: »

One thing is for certain, there will be unintended consequences. Economies are complex, tinker with them at your peril.

As a rule of thumb the question I ask myself is this, will people be more or less productive if this is implemented?

With less incentive to work overall people would be less productive. Some of the largest productivity gains come from people trying to become rich. If it is much more difficult to become rich society would become poorer. Less products and services produced, less quality of products and services and less innovation.

The most important resource of an economy is not oil, gold, steel etc, it's the motivation of it's citizens to be productive and innovate.

But the last 10 years has seen a significant increase in taxes and it hasn’t negatively affected productivity and employment

dxhound2005 · 16-10-2019 12:34pm

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

But the last 10 years has seen a significant increase in taxes and it hasn’t negatively affected productivity and employment

What do you mean by significant?

Geuze · 16-10-2019 12:36pm

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

But the last 10 years has seen a significant increase in taxes and it hasn’t negatively affected productivity and employment

Has there been a significant increase in taxes? I don't think so.

OK, there has been an increase in income taxes, yes.

Whether it's "significant" is up for debate.

See here:

https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-ireland.pdf

Cee-Jay-Cee · 16-10-2019 1:37pm

No, of course not. After paying for all those things myself I have more than 20% of my wages remaining so why would I even consider such an idea???

whomitconcerns · 16-10-2019 1:45pm

Why would I contribute to more free houses and free money for people while I worked 100hrs a week as a consultant/doctor for 20k.... If I was...

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 2:07pm

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

No, of course not. After paying for all those things myself I have more than 20% of my wages remaining so why would I even consider such an idea???

Because you would only have to work 4 days a week instead of 5.
Because there mould be bullet trains between cities.
Because we would have a much better health system which you might be grateful for in the future.
Because if you ever lost your job you would have good social protections in place.
Because you would have a better house as the cost of housing would go down significantly if there was large scale social housing .

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 2:09pm

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Why would I contribute to more free houses and free money for people while I worked 100hrs a week as a consultant/doctor for 20k.... If I was...

Because your spending power would be the same as always. 20k seems small but when the average person may be taking home 6k that 20k suddenly looks good.

dxhound2005 · 16-10-2019 2:12pm

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

Because your spending power would be the same as always. 20k seems small but when the average person may be taking home 6k that 20k suddenly looks good.

If you refine the system so that everyone earns the same, say 10K, it would be easier to do the taxes and spending. The big bosses of private companies pay themselves multi millions. They could just as easily live on 10K if everything was free.

16-10-2019 2:17pm

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

I know if I had to go to the emergency department for whatever reason I would be put on a trolley in the waiting room for about 36 hours.

No. No. You'd be waiting 36 hours before being seen. Get the "message" right.

salmocab · 16-10-2019 2:18pm

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

Because you would only have to work 4 days a week instead of 5.
Because there mould be bullet trains between cities.
Because we would have a much better health system which you might be grateful for in the future.
Because if you ever lost your job you would have good social protections in place.
Because you would have a better house as the cost of housing would go down significantly if there was large scale social housing .

So working less hours so presumably less money, that’s a fifth of your tax take gone already.
Billions on bullet trains plus millions to run the service.
Healthcare that would cost way more than the one we can’t currently run
The housing thing has so many problems I don’t know where to begin.

16-10-2019 2:22pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There was an experiment in 1977 which did away with property tax, water charges, bin charges and road/motor tax. Fianna Fail got the biggest majority in the history of the state when they proposed it.

The only thing they forgot to tell the people was that income tax would be 60% within a couple of years. Anyone old enough will remember the tax marches which dwarfed anything seen recently against water charges. The country has been trying to recover from this disaster to local funding since.

Well considering FF had a significant hand in practically bankrupting the country within the last generation and are now vying for power again per the polls I think it's fair to say vanishingly few remembers that political "experiment".

16-10-2019 2:23pm

salmocab wrote: »

So working less hours so presumably less money, that’s a fifth of your tax take gone already.
Billions on bullet trains plus millions to run the service.
Healthcare that would cost way more than the one we can’t currently run
The housing thing has so many problems I don’t know where to begin.

At least this is in AH. And even then practically nobody supporting the OP. Doesn't bode well as a vote getter.

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 2:25pm

salmocab wrote: »

So working less hours so presumably less money, that’s a fifth of your tax take gone already.
Billions on bullet trains plus millions to run the service.
Healthcare that would cost way more than the one we can’t currently run
The housing thing has so many problems I don’t know where to begin.

No because employment would have to increase as more workers are needed if people would only work 4 days a week, therefore tax take remains the same

Newuseruntaken · 16-10-2019 2:26pm

Deleted User wrote: »

At least this is in AH. And even then practically nobody supporting the OP. Doesn't bode well as a vote getter.

Ah in fairness if it was up to AH we would all still be living in caves

4068ac1elhodqr · 16-10-2019 2:31pm

Someone from the Labour party over in the uk is suggesting this sort of thing: 4-day week.
The trouble is they say it'll take at least 3terms (12yrs) to fully impliment.

Annual cost of something like 100bn, they also want the highest minwage in Europe.
Naturally the rich will have to give up their public school, polo and horseys, for all the new foodbanks and extra nandos/whetherspoons.

Over in the US the 4th fav for POTUS20 wants to hand out 1,000 bucks to everyone, every single month, for nothing.

Let the good times roll!

dxhound2005 · 16-10-2019 2:34pm

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

Ah in fairness if it was up to AH we would all still be living in caves

Fairness is not something I would associate with your ideas. Or common sense.

Iscreamkone · 16-10-2019 2:41pm

How about I pay 5% tax and pay for everything I need out of the rest. Education/Healthcare/Housing

JDD · 16-10-2019 2:50pm

20% of myself and my husband's monthly income wouldn't pay our mortgage. If I was to be gifted a house in a nice area then it still won't work, as it won't pay for my childcare. If was to be gifted a house and a place at a convenient childcare facility, the remainder would barely cover our food, bills (and I'm not counting utilities) and kids after school/weekend activities. I'd never be able to get my hair cut, buy new clothes, go on holiday or buy the kids any Christmas/birthday presents.

Myself and my husband earn in the top 6% of household income. And even the additional tax we would pay would barely cover the cost of the things we pay for already, let alone go any way towards subsidizing the cost of providing free accommodation, transport, healthcare and childcare for the remaining 94% of the income earners. I'm not even going to broach the fact that 25% of households do not earn any income apart from social welfare.

It simply wouldn't work without a large proportion of income earners taking a significant dip in living standards.

Antares35 · 16-10-2019 3:05pm

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

Because you would only have to work 4 days a week instead of 5.
Because there mould be bullet trains between cities.
Because we would have a much better health system which you might be grateful for in the future.
Because if you ever lost your job you would have good social protections in place.
Because you would have a better house as the cost of housing would go down significantly if there was large scale social housing .

Would there be dole? Would it be 20% of the current dole rate?

Cina · 16-10-2019 3:08pm

The Government already waste enough of my tax. Why the f*ck would I want to give them any more?

Even if we chucked another 100bn at the HSE they'd still find a way to be completely useless.

salmocab · 16-10-2019 3:14pm

Newuseruntaken wrote: »

No because employment would have to increase as more workers are needed if people would only work 4 days a week, therefore tax take remains the same

Employment increase? We are practically full employment. Your plan would require 20% more staff for all services which we aren’t even close to having let alone having with all the right qualifications.
I applaud your ability to keep this up though.

Ray Palmer · 16-10-2019 3:32pm

It is funny how people compare other countries with Ireland and say we should do the same. All the rent controls in Germany should apply in Ireland but forget the other details. Rent a place in Germany and you have to provide your own kitchen and repaint before you leave. The countries housing stock was destroyed in WWII. The land then was taken by the state and international money was provided to build the housing under strict rules. So for us to have the same as Germany first you need to kill a huge portion of the population take ownership of the land then get other countries to pay for the new buildings.
Scandinavian countries have a huge income from their natural resources proping up their economy so the residents while having high tax don't pay for it.
We have a small population for the land and people expect the services to be everywhere. The point to a hospital closing and go on about how it was there before so why not still have it? The hospitals were run and supported by religious orders. That means the staff were all underpaid. Don't forget the literally used slave labour to wash the bed sheets for these hospitals.
If you live in rural France they don't expect there to be a local hospital but here people do.

Would you agree to 80% income tax if everything was free?

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