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The worrying rise of TERFism in the UK (MOD WARNING IN OP)
Comments
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An_Toirpin wrote: »The word Terf is a disgusting hateful slur. No one should try to divide us like that.
Let's break the acronym TERF down shall we and see how much of a slur it is.
Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist.
Trans Exclusionary. They want to exclude trans people. Not seeing much of a slur here to be honest. That's what they set out to do.
Radical. Pretty descriptive I'd have thought.
Feminist. Again not sure where a slur would come in here. Though given they want to exclude trans people I'm not sure how that fits in with feminism, seeing as feminism is meant to be a movement of equality.
So please point out how you see the need to twist the English language to make that acronym be a slur?0 -
Let's break the acronym TERF down shall we and see how much of a slur it is.
Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist.
Trans Exclusionary. They want to exclude trans people. Not seeing much of a slur here to be honest. That's what they set out to do.
Radical. Pretty descriptive I'd have thought.
Feminist. Again not sure where a slur would come in here. Though given they want to exclude trans people I'm not sure how that fits in with feminism, seeing as feminism is meant to be a movement of equality.
So please point out how you see the need to twist the English language to make that acronym be a slur?
Definition and intent of the use of words are two entirely different things, which you surely know.
What would the equivalent accurate term be for the opposite side be, where a group of people have decided that women should be referred to as "non-men" or "menstruators", and that a biological woman possesses a "front hole" whereas a trans woman possesses a "vagina"?
Feminism is not a movement of equality, it's a movement of removing repression, fighting millennia of wrongs, and giving women the right to state basic things which men have always taken for granted, such as the right to control their own bodies, their own lives, have their own money and property, protection from institutionalised harm, the list goes on and on. It never has, and never suggested it would, have to advocate for the needs of anything other than women and their particular biological or societal needs.
And "terf", as I say, isn't an attitude that's going to win people over.0 -
Slutmonkey57b wrote: »Definition and intent of the use of words are two entirely different things, which you surely know.
What would the equivalent accurate term be for the opposite side be, where a group of people have decided that women should be referred to as "non-men" or "menstruators", and that a biological woman possesses a "front hole" whereas a trans woman possesses a "vagina"?
Feminism is not a movement of equality, it's a movement of removing repression, fighting millennia of wrongs, and giving women the right to state basic things which men have always taken for granted, such as the right to control their own bodies, their own lives, have their own money and property, protection from institutionalised harm, the list goes on and on. It never has, and never suggested it would, have to advocate for the needs of anything other than women and their particular biological or societal needs.
And "terf", as I say, isn't an attitude that's going to win people over.
I agree on the last point re it's an attitude that won't win people over but its tough to avoid using it when you see some of the downright insidious things they are currently getting up to.
How else would you suggest identifying them?0 -
So after an hour I'll never get back properly looking into the argument raised by the TERFs I have to say it's an argument that does not hold merit. For context, and to bring some rational evidence to the table, heres an example of a somewhat reasonable appearing propaganda piece from them.
https://twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1037779769608335362?s=19
Why do the issues raised in the "propaganda piece" not hold any weight? I think it's somewhat reasonable to be concerned about self-id, and the poster outlines a few reasons why one might be concerned.0 -
Let's break the acronym TERF down shall we and see how much of a slur it is.
Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist.
Trans Exclusionary. They want to exclude trans people. Not seeing much of a slur here to be honest. That's what they set out to do.
Radical. Pretty descriptive I'd have thought.
Feminist. Again not sure where a slur would come in here. Though given they want to exclude trans people I'm not sure how that fits in with feminism, seeing as feminism is meant to be a movement of equality.
So please point out how you see the need to twist the English language to make that acronym be a slur?
I think ascribing "radical" to someone because of their beliefs on one issue is unhelpful.0 -
We have had self ID in Ireland for 3 years. None of these problems have arisen.
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Joeytheparrot wrote: »We have had self ID in Ireland for 3 years. None of these problems have arisen.
Source?0 -
Emerie Witty Electricity wrote: »Source?
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/act/25/enacted/en/htmlIt was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Slutmonkey57b wrote: »
For every one of those stories you can find, I can find about 10 of these, to be honest. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jan/05/transgender-woman-jenny-swift-found-dead-at-doncaster-prison
Are you saying cis females don't sexually harass one another in prisons, too?
I am not ignoring the fact that abuses of the system can happen. But You clearly want to punish all transwoman for the crimes of one. If this was because the colour of skin instead of gender this would be called racial profiling.0 -
JackTaylorFan wrote: »For every one of those stories you can find, I can find about 10 of these, to be honest. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jan/05/transgender-woman-jenny-swift-found-dead-at-doncaster-prison
Are you saying cis females don't sexually harass one another in prisons, too?
I am not ignoring the fact that abuses of the system can happen. But You clearly want to punish all transwoman for the crimes of one. If this was because the colour of skin instead of gender this would be called racial profiling.
How does that relate in any way to the post you're replying to? You're totally avoiding the issue0 -
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Emerie Witty Electricity wrote: »I think ascribing "radical" to someone because of their beliefs on one issue is unhelpful.
Indeed, the phrase radical should be reclaimed by the open minded and those who refuse to accept binaries. Perhaps Reactionary might be a better term for the r0 -
Joeytheparrot wrote: »We have had self ID in Ireland for 3 years. None of these problems have arisen.
It may not be a problem now...
But with the sudden and very significant rise in kids claiming to be transgender, what about 5 or 10 years from now ?
I suppose on the upside there's an equally sudden surge in adults deciding they're not trans anymore so maybe it'll just burn itself out..0 -
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MOD:
Thread closed for review.
JackTaylorFan, we do see the reported posts. Calling them out and "back-seat modding" in the thread itself is entirely counter productive as it only serves to further derail the discussion and makes it difficult for us to remove any off-topic posts without disrupting subsequent conversation.
If you have a problem with a post or poster, reporting is enough. Thanks.0 -
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Thread reopened. All mod warnings remain in effect.
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Ok, let me try again.
I don't see TERF's as a worrying issue as I believe they are trying to avoid combining two fights, feminism and trans rights into one. I think those who are involved in the feminist movement are entitled to fight for women's rights without fighting for trans rights too.0 -
Emerie Witty Electricity wrote: »A question regarding the mod note - specifically that posters should not imply that trans women are not "real women".
Is this not the entire topic of debate when discussing "TERFs"?
For all the dressing up of this being about safe spaces for women (which believe me, I want too) it pretty much boils down to what you just pointed out really. TERFs don't recognise transwomen as women and will go to extremes, including harassment and violence to get their message of hate across. And that is why on an LGBT+ forum TERF rhetoric really shouldn't be entertained.0 -
Since this discussion has brought up the issue of transgender prisoners, specifically in the UK - here is the current UK Government Policy guideline on the matter - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/566828/transgender-review-findings-web.PDFAllowing transgender offenders to experience the system in the gender in which they
identify will, in the great majority of cases, represent the most humane and safest way to
act. We believe it will also assist successful rehabilitation.
In the minority of cases where that is not possible, the reasons for departing from this
starting presumption must be clear, explicit and made known to the person they affect,
especially when it involves assigning someone to a male or female prison. The majority of
such cases are likely to concern transgender people convicted of serious offences, where
both public protection and the best interests of the person themselves may not be
compatible with the general presumption described above. However, this will not be true
of all transgender serious offenders and it is important that policy for the majority should
not be founded upon the highly complex considerations raised by a minority.0 -
Emerie Witty Electricity wrote: »Ok, let me try again.
I don't see TERF's as a worrying issue as I believe they are trying to avoid combining two fights, feminism and trans rights into one. I think those who are involved in the feminist movement are entitled to fight for women's rights without fighting for trans rights too.
But they aren't mutually exclusive. A core part of the trans rights movement is the fight for recognition of one's gender, equal to any other.
Thus "women's rights (excluding transwomen)" is in direct conflict with trans rights, which seeks to recognise trans people as equal.
Imagine it was "Women's rights (excluding black women)" and you get the idea.
TERFs by their very existence do not recognise transwomen as equal and are therefore in direct conflict with the trans rights movement. They cannot peacefully coexist.0 -
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Joeytheparrot wrote: »
I think it's clear the poster was asking for the source of your assertion that there have been 0 problems, not the relevant statute.0 -
JackTaylorFan wrote: »For every one of those stories you can find, I can find about 10 of these, to be honest. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jan/05/transgender-woman-jenny-swift-found-dead-at-doncaster-prison
Are you saying cis females don't sexually harass one another in prisons, too?
I am not ignoring the fact that abuses of the system can happen. But You clearly want to punish all transwoman for the crimes of one. If this was because the colour of skin instead of gender this would be called racial profiling.
I don't understand the point of this post. You're responding to a discussion about whether elimination of single sex spaces carries dangerous risks with supporting evidence of that, while seeming to think it shows the opposite?
The only person, between the two of us, conflating trans people with dangerous sexual predators is you. My very first post pointed out that trans movements would be used as *cover*, not that trans people themselves were the danger.
That's why discussions around this topic need to be open, whether that's comfortable or not. Fixed minded rhetoric, putting words in people's mouths, "Because I say so" reasoning and burying heads in the sand is not going to prevent tragedies like the one you posted, or the one I posted.0 -
Slutmonkey57b wrote: »I think it's clear the poster was asking for the source of your assertion that there have been 0 problems, not the relevant statute.
1 The poster did not indicate it
2 If you can point me to some problems then please doIt was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Slutmonkey57b wrote: »I don't understand the point of this post. You're responding to a discussion about whether elimination of single sex spaces carries dangerous risks with supporting evidence of that, while seeming to think it shows the opposite?
See, it's the use of terms of single sex spaces (very TERFy language) that concerns me. Yes, sex and gender are different, but the direct consequence of your proposal is placing trans men in women's spaces and vice versa, or isolating them from society altogether.
I do believe however that if a transwoman abuses the rights she has been afforded by sexually harassing other women, thus making it harder for every other transwoman out there, then I have no problem with shoving her down a bottomless pit. Quite frankly it's a a slap in the face to countless decent transpeople who have fought hard to get her those rights.Slutmonkey57b wrote: »The only person, between the two of us, conflating trans people with dangerous sexual predators is you. My very first post pointed out that trans movements would be used as *cover*, not that trans people themselves were the danger
That is simply ridiculous. Your first post here was so loaded -i.e. claiming TERF is a slur, and use of TERF narrative etc., the connotations and implications were pretty clear.
You then show a deep concern for anonymous TERFs getting bomb threats and continue to worry about their all round safety, but when I tell you about the two rather traumatizing death threats i have been victim of within the last 12 months, you suddenly change tone and become dismissive and claim "I'm not getting into 'who's worst off' with you" when it's literally all you are doing throughout this thread. Trying to position these TERFs as misunderstood victims.Slutmonkey57b wrote: »That's why discussions around this topic need to be open, whether that's comfortable or not. Fixed minded rhetoric, putting words in people's mouths, "Because I say so" reasoning and burying heads in the sand is not going to prevent tragedies like the one you posted, or the one I posted.
Suicide is a tragedy.
"Two counts of sexual touching" is regrettable and cause for concern, and yes, should be punished, but I would stop some way short of calling it a tragedy when comparing the events to multiple suicides. I am not excusing it, but we can't even quantify "sexual touching" here. And given the link you provided we don't know anything really, bar what was in the story. Suicide on the other hand is very concrete in both its definition and its sense of tragedy.
(EDIT: Actually I should add, the rapes outside of prison are actually pretty shocking - and in a case like that I would be worried about allowing this individual anywhere near women)
Also, I would like to point out, that I have literally not used the lines "because I say so" or "not up for debate" on this issue/thread once. Though I have expressed many times that I don't think there is anything to be gained here, bar people finding ways to have a go at transpeople (with particular focus on women) in all manner of ways. And I have been proved, once again, justified in my concerns, by earlier events. Again, it seems you are the one putting words in mouths.0 -
Whether people on this board like it or not, the so-called Uk 'terfs' are a combination of gender critical feminists and regular, everyday women who are concerned about the loss of sex-segregated spaces and the reality of having male-bodied people in spaces that were traditionally reserved for women.
In the UK the trans umbrella has expanded to the point that any male bodied person can self-identify as a woman, whether or not they ever actually get surgery and transition or even try to pass as a woman.
So yes, women are challenging this and want a discussion on this. And for that, they get called terfs, threatened with abuse and violence - look on Twitter for the #PunchAterf hashtag. I have not seen such violent language used by feminist and gender critical groups against anyone. (The fact that the term 'terf' is used, even by Mods here, when it is a known slur specifically used against women, says it all.)
Ask any woman do they or their children want to meet a person who looks male in a bathroom, swimming pool changing area, gym changing room, hospital ward, hostel accommodation, girl guide camping group, women’s domestic violence shelter or in a prison. The majority will not. Male-bodied people have always been a threat to women, and it is no surprise that some males will use the trans umbrella to gain access to vulnerable women, just like Karen White, who was born male, and was on remand for multiple rape charges and was still allowed into a women's prison. It never should have happened, regardless of how the person identified. But that is the way things are going, and Uk women are challenging this. For that, they get abuse and called terfs.
JackTaylorFan's dismissal and minimisation of the sexual assault of women prisoners as being 'regrettable' is shocking and dreadful. I can't imagine ever saying such a thing to any women, especially when these assaults could have been prevented. Suicide by trans people in prison is awful and they should be supported and cared for humanely in a safe environment, but women should not be collateral damage in an effort to safeguard trans people or any other group. (And let’s be honest, trans women and natal women are seeking safety from male violence – that is at the heart of all this). So, that is where UK women, terfs as you all call them, are coming from. The disregard for the safety of women and girls has moved UK women to mobilise and form groups like Fair Play for Women and to force a discussion that no one wants to have.0 -
There is a lot of misunderstanding going on in this discussion. Some people here dont quite seem to know what they are talking about.
1 Ireland already has had self ID of trans people for the last 3 years and no major issues have been identified with it so far
2 The UK does not currently have self ID in its laws. It is proposed to.
3 The ideology behind trans exclusionary radical feminism is violently hateful against trans women and directing extreme violence towards them. Being a TERF is (in my opinion) more about hating trans women than being a feminist. Cisgender Radical Feminists themselves came up with the term in the first place by the way. It is perfectly possible to be a trans inclusive feminist. I have no problem at all using it. I dont care if its seen as a slur given the ideology behind it all is extreme in its hate against trans women.
4 The idea that TERFs are all lovely friendly happy clappy people is a lie and a joke. They themselves have many times been extremely violent and agressive
I can find many many examples of Threats of violence, doxxing trans teenagers, bullying and harassment. The below ones are just a few examples
https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/05/01/police-probe-radical-feminist-linda-bellos-over-alleged-threat-to-thump-trans-women/
https://www.ibtimes.com/terf-wars-radical-feminists-are-going-after-transgender-activists-why-1820652
https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/01/23/anti-trans-activist-suspended-from-labour-party-after-posting-transphobic-memes/
https://m.thecoast.ca/halifax/trans-exclusionists-target-halifax-trans-women/Content?oid=6609251
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7562108
Thankfully in Ireland our feminists are (mostly) much more trans inclusive
https://feministire.com/2018/01/22/an-open-letter-to-the-organisers-of-the-we-need-to-talk-tour-from-a-group-of-feminists-in-ireland/It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Frankly I'm getting pretty sick at all these terms popping up - "Terf" being yet another new one....
I can see perfectly well why women would take issue with pre op transgender women using their changing/showering facilities, and the vast majority of the population would also do so. Women should not be made feel uncomfortable in such spaces. If that makes me "transphobic", then that's the problem with the person making the accusation, not me.
Personally I've seen very young girls with their fathers in men's changing rooms and I'm not very comfortable with that. On the Continent, family changing rooms are the norm at pools and sports centres and should be here too.
In any case I don't see a cohesive LGBTQ+ "community" any more in the West. Perhaps in the early years of LGBT activism when all non "cis" hetero persons were seen as deviants and criminals by wider society, but not now.0 -
JackTaylorFan wrote: »For every one of those stories you can find, I can find about 10 of these, to be honest. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jan/05/transgender-woman-jenny-swift-found-dead-at-doncaster-prison
Are you saying cis females don't sexually harass one another in prisons, too?
I am not ignoring the fact that abuses of the system can happen. But You clearly want to punish all transwoman for the crimes of one. If this was because the colour of skin instead of gender this would be called racial profiling.
Whataboutery much?0 -
JupiterKid wrote: »I can see perfectly well why women would take issue with pre op transgender women using their changing/showering facilities, and the vast majority of the population would also do so.
I can see why, and I can empathise a little, but I don't think it's right that they should feel so uncomfortable as to be justified in making a very public issue out of it.
Should they feel uncomfortable because there is a man in their midst? Except, there isn't. So that doesn't hold.
Or is it 'just' because of the physical appearance of a penis? Is that really fair? Lot's of people have bits and pieces I don't find attractive, or I wouldn't choose to see. A changing room/shower isn't a peep show. Is it the trans woman's fault that she not have a perfect female body? Should it be acceptable that she be punished for it?Women should not be made feel uncomfortable in such spaces.
But it's okay for trans women to be made not only uncomfortable, but also categorically unwelcome and excluded?
Aren't those two statements at odds with each other? Or are "family changing rooms" a third option?Personally I've seen very young girls with their fathers in men's changing rooms and I'm not very comfortable with that. On the Continent, family changing rooms are the norm at pools and sports centres and should be here too.0 -
I can see why, and I can empathise a little, but I don't think it's right that they should feel so uncomfortable as to be justified in making a very public issue out of it.
Should they feel uncomfortable because there is a man in their midst? Except, there isn't. So that doesn't hold.
Or is it 'just' because of the physical appearance of a penis? Is that really fair? Lot's of people have bits and pieces I don't find attractive, or I wouldn't choose to see. A changing room/shower isn't a peep show. Is it the trans woman's fault that she not have a perfect female body? Should it be acceptable that she be punished for it?
But it's okay for trans women to be made not only uncomfortable, but also categorically unwelcome and excluded?
Aren't those two statements at odds with each other? Or are "family changing rooms" a third option?
Honestly I think this is just a complete red herring manufactured out of nowhere anyway. There isn't going to be a deluge of Pre op trans women or trans women who dont have surgery (remember that they often cant for medical reasons and opt not to as a choice) going into changing rooms. There hasn't been in Ireland. Its hysterical nonsense. Think about it - why would trans women who have not had surgery go around exposing their genitals in changing rooms. Why would they put themselves in danger like that. Its completely hysterical.
Many sport and leisure centres in the UK are moving towards what they call 'village' style changing, ie individual cubicles that anyone can use. Lots of small private cubicles opening out onto the pool itself or onto a communal non-gendered area. This is only marginally to accommodate trans people it is for families where only one parent can take the kids, for couples where one may need help changing, or for carers and disabled people.
I think that move is ideal to all to be honest. It accomodates everyone; trans/non binary people, cis people who may feel uncomfortable, families who may be worried about their children being exposed, people with disabiliies and their carers.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Joeytheparrot wrote: »Honestly I think this is just a complete red herring manufactured out of nowhere anyway.
Totally agree.0 -
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skybox2014 wrote: »
Ask any woman do they or their children want to meet a person who looks male in a bathroom, swimming pool changing area, gym changing room, hospital ward, hostel accommodation, girl guide camping group, women’s domestic violence shelter or in a prison. The majority will not.
So according to your logic, no trans men, particularly butch lesbians, masculine looking AFAB non-binaries or just any cis woman who has too square a jawline should not be allowed in these spaces either. That sounds like quite a plan. I would love to know all the women you asked about this, they seem really well informed.skybox2014 wrote: »
JackTaylorFan's dismissal and minimisation of the sexual assault of women prisoners as being 'regrettable' is shocking and dreadful.
I literally condemned the person in question for the rapes they were convicted of outside of a women's prison (note: the story made clear the rapes did not occur inside the prison). The description of "sexual touching" which happened inside of the prison was too vague as to actually be defined by us (me, you and I imagine everyone else in this thread) as to what that actually entailed. I furthermore added that this individual should never have been moved to a women's facility given the severe nature of their crime. What happened inside the prison, the "sexual touching" (which I stress, none of us here can quantify) was both unfortunate and regrettable, and of course I condemn that person. as I said, they should be thrown into a bottomless pit. What I will not do is say, that transpeople don't have the right to self-identify because one rapist scumbag happened to abuse that right.0 -
JupiterKid wrote: »Frankly I'm getting pretty sick at all these terms popping up - "Terf" being yet another new one....
I can see perfectly well why women would take issue with pre op transgender women using their changing/showering facilities, and the vast majority of the population would also do so. Women should not be made feel uncomfortable in such spaces. If that makes me "transphobic", then that's the problem with the person making the accusation, not me.
Personally I've seen very young girls with their fathers in men's changing rooms and I'm not very comfortable with that. On the Continent, family changing rooms are the norm at pools and sports centres and should be here too.
In any case I don't see a cohesive LGBTQ+ "community" any more in the West. Perhaps in the early years of LGBT activism when all non "cis" hetero persons were seen as deviants and criminals by wider society, but not now.
I can see why a hetero woman or man might feel uncomfortable sharing a changing room with gay person of same sex....
Ring a bell... all this flipping self absorption and turgid waffle only feeds the appetites of bigots.. Give me strength0 -
This is, granted, far less malignant than sexual predators abusing the system, nonetheless, these stories are bound to emerge from all this - https://www.joe.ie/life-style/man-becomes-woman-insurance-635741.
No, self-id isn't perfect. Yes, it is a policy open to being abused. And yes, transpeople are more than a little worried about it being abused - I would argue far more so than even TERFs. No matter who abuses it, one single individual acting alone (cis or not), it will be all trans people (with a particular emphasis as always on transwomen) who will face a backlash.
I would actually go as far as saying TERFs revel in stories where the system has been abused, as it only plays to their agenda.0 -
JupiterKid wrote: »
I can see perfectly well why women would take issue with pre op transgender women using their changing/showering facilities, and the vast majority of the population would also do so.
Okay, just for fun, let's have it.
Why?
What exactly does your mind envision when you imagine someone like me using these facilities?0 -
Joeytheparrot wrote: »Honestly I think this is just a complete red herring manufactured out of nowhere anyway. There isn't going to be a deluge of Pre op trans women or trans women who dont have surgery (remember that they often cant for medical reasons and opt not to as a choice) going into changing rooms. There hasn't been in Ireland. Its hysterical nonsense. Think about it - why would trans women who have not had surgery go around exposing their genitals in changing rooms. Why would they put themselves in danger like that. Its completely hysterical.
Many sport and leisure centres in the UK are moving towards what they call 'village' style changing, ie individual cubicles that anyone can use. Lots of small private cubicles opening out onto the pool itself or onto a communal non-gendered area. This is only marginally to accommodate trans people it is for families where only one parent can take the kids, for couples where one may need help changing, or for carers and disabled people.
I think that move is ideal to all to be honest. It accomodates everyone; trans/non binary people, cis people who may feel uncomfortable, families who may be worried about their children being exposed, people with disabiliies and their carers.
Absolutely the village style dressing rooms accommodate most people and are the way to go for sports/leisure/swimming, but they don't address the many other sex-segregated spaces I mentioned above - toilets, hospital wards, hostel accommodation, girl guide camping groups, women’s domestic violence shelters or prisons. These spaces are segregated for a reason - to protect vulnerable women from male violence.
I don't know how a woman is supposed to tell the difference between a dangerous male and a pre op trans women or trans women who don't get surgery (and apparently in the UK they reckon 80 percent of trans women don't have surgery). It is naive in the extreme to think that males won't take advantage of a self ID law that gives them permission to enter what was a safe space for women- they already have in the UK - hence sexual assaults by sex offender Karen White.
And calling UK women hysterical (I mean really? You choose that word!) and Terfs for questioning the proposed legislative changes, that directly affect women and girls, is indefensible. These safeguarding issues are real for women, and the fact that the trans activists and community don't get how serious this is is worrying and doesn't bode well.
With regard to Ireland, it is a very different situation here, and the number involved so much smaller than the UK. (I also think our culture is far less combative.) I think in Ireland and the UK until now, trans women were given a silent nod of acceptance by most women when encountered in safe female spaces, but that was at a time when trans women were more like Lydia Foy - they quietly got on with living as women and were not threatening.
But all that has changed now, especially in the UK. The likes of Shon 'enjoy your erasure' Faye, Aimee Challenor, Jess Bradley and other high profile trans women are quite openly misogynistic and threatening. They do not inspire any confidence that they understand or even care about the concern of natal women and girls, who are just collatoral damage.
These activists have squandered a lot of good will of regular woman.
Tom Farr summed it up well for those looking to read something more nuanced about what is happening in the UK.
The Left Are Abandoning Women; and in Doing So, Abandoning Everything They Stand For.
https://medium.com/@tom_farr/the-left-are-abandoning-women-and-in-doing-so-abandoning-everything-they-stand-for-51fd63457d8c0 -
JackTaylorFan wrote: »Okay, just for fun, let's have it.
Why?
What exactly does your mind envision when you imagine someone like me using these facilities?
I think the post you're replying to was worded fairly badly. However I do think you seem to be inserting yourself as a person into an impersonal point, understandably.
Women have spent the last century or so fighting an inbuilt system which has discriminated against them purely because of their biology. They have, for almost all recorded history, been excessively the victims of discrimination, dismissal, control, exploitation, violence, sexual assault, and murder at the hands of biologically male bodied people.
They are now at a crossroads in history where they are being asked to effectively take someone's word for it that the protections and rights they've had to fight and die for aren't going to be dismissed or appropriated. This isn't an issue of making someone comfortable in society for them, its life and death. And any goodwill which might have been built up has been torched to the ground in recent years by this aggressive "punch a terf" business.
When you have prominent people who are in positions of power and influence in the trans movement like Jess Bradley and Aimee Challenor doing the things they've done, and then after they've been found out to be dangerous liars, continue to attack women, often with the support of other members of the trans movement, that is not going to end well.
Which is why I think it's important to stop for a moment and consider what it is that anyone hopes to achieve right now by continuing to attack women who raise concerns.0 -
JackTaylorFan wrote: »That is simply ridiculous. Your first post here was so loaded -i.e. claiming TERF is a slur, and use of TERF narrative etc., the connotations and implications were pretty clear.
You then show a deep concern for anonymous TERFs getting bomb threats and continue to worry about their all round safety, but when I tell you about the two rather traumatizing death threats i have been victim of within the last 12 months, you suddenly change tone and become dismissive and claim "I'm not getting into 'who's worst off' with you" when it's literally all you are doing throughout this thread. Trying to position these TERFs as misunderstood victims.
Just because you don't believe it's a slur doesn't mean it isn't. And the context in which you use the word, continually, shows that not only that you know it's a slur, it's your intended usage.
All I've attempted to do, explicitly, impersonally, from the first post, is to try and explain what someone who isn't in any way "on the battlefield" of this issue might see. Which is why I have attempted as much as possible to address my comments impersonally and why I'm not going to get into whether you specifically have had worse or better experiences than any other individual: I don't pretend to know you or your story.
If there are "two sides" to this issue that need to be worked out to a compromise, then I don't believe that's going to happen, for the reasons I've attempted to outline. If you disagree, then that's fine. Like I say, I'm not on the battlefield and won't get hurt. But it doesn't mean I'm not trying to discuss the issue with a genuine alternative point of view in good faith.0 -
Can we call TERF's transphobes ?0
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JackTaylorFan wrote: »Okay, just for fun, let's have it.
Why?
What exactly does your mind envision when you imagine someone like me using these facilities?
Must you argue and rant in every thread you create? I have my opinion, and you have yours. And practically every thread you post up is accusing others of a perceived transphobia when oftentimes there is little evidence for this.
Might I suggest you set up a lobby group for transgenders that might effect some real change rather than rant endlessly here on boards?
Mod
Red carded for personal attack.0 -
JupiterKid wrote: »Frankly I'm getting pretty sick at all these terms popping up - "Terf" being yet another new one....
I'm drifting in and out of the thread, but TERF is not a new term at all. I can remember the use of the word going back to the early 90's and late 80's.0 -
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Stick to biology. Use it as a rule.
Very simple0 -
skybox2014 wrote: »Absolutely the village style dressing rooms accommodate most people and are the way to go for sports/leisure/swimming, but they don't address the many other sex-segregated spaces I mentioned above - toilets, hospital wards, hostel accommodation, girl guide camping groups, women’s domestic violence shelters or prisons. These spaces are segregated for a reason - to protect vulnerable women from male violence.
I don't know how a woman is supposed to tell the difference between a dangerous male and a pre op trans women or trans women who don't get surgery (and apparently in the UK they reckon 80 percent of trans women don't have surgery). It is naive in the extreme to think that males won't take advantage of a self ID law that gives them permission to enter what was a safe space for women- they already have in the UK - hence sexual assaults by sex offender Karen White.
And calling UK women hysterical (I mean really? You choose that word!) and Terfs for questioning the proposed legislative changes, that directly affect women and girls, is indefensible. These safeguarding issues are real for women, and the fact that the trans activists and community don't get how serious this is is worrying and doesn't bode well.
With regard to Ireland, it is a very different situation here, and the number involved so much smaller than the UK. (I also think our culture is far less combative.) I think in Ireland and the UK until now, trans women were given a silent nod of acceptance by most women when encountered in safe female spaces, but that was at a time when trans women were more like Lydia Foy - they quietly got on with living as women and were not threatening.
But all that has changed now, especially in the UK. The likes of Shon 'enjoy your erasure' Faye, Aimee Challenor, Jess Bradley and other high profile trans women are quite openly misogynistic and threatening. They do not inspire any confidence that they understand or even care about the concern of natal women and girls, who are just collatoral damage.
These activists have squandered a lot of good will of regular woman.
Tom Farr summed it up well for those looking to read something more nuanced about what is happening in the UK.
The Left Are Abandoning Women; and in Doing So, Abandoning Everything They Stand For.
https://medium.com/@tom_farr/the-left-are-abandoning-women-and-in-doing-so-abandoning-everything-they-stand-for-51fd63457d8c
Yes I absolutely stand over everything I said here - TERFs are whipping up a nasty violent hysteria of hate against trans women in the UK. The proposals around self id will not really massively change things. The sky hasn't fallen in here in Ireland. We haven't had hordes of men pretending to be women in order to sexually assault women. Everyone here goes mute or into whataboutery mode when I point out that self ID hasnt caused major problems. Some people even arguing thought that the UK has it.
Thankfully as I said most Irish feminists have an inclusive and intersectionalist feminist viewpoint that doesnt want to basically deny trans womens right to exist. That is what is this is all really about.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Autochange wrote: »Stick to biology. Use it as a rule.
Very simple
Mod
Stick to the forum charter. Simple.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Joeytheparrot wrote: »Yes I absolutely stand over everything I said here - TERFs are whipping up a nasty violent hysteria of hate against trans women in the UK. The proposals around self id will not really massively change things. The sky hasn't fallen in here in Ireland. We haven't had hordes of men pretending to be women in order to sexually assault women. Everyone here goes mute or into whataboutery mode when I point out that self ID hasnt caused major problems. Some people even arguing thought that the UK has it.
Thankfully as I said most Irish feminists have an inclusive and intersectionalist feminist viewpoint that doesnt want to basically deny trans womens right to exist. That is what is this is all really about.
The thread is about the UK, not Ireland.
There have been very serious problems in the UK, and this is before self id becomes law.
The fact that you're not personally aware of any issues here doesn't have any relevance to what is going on in the UK, or indeed prove that there are no issues.
Question for you: at a fundamental level, do you believe that biological women have a right to any say in how a woman is defined? I'm not asking about what the definition of a woman is, nor am I trying to get around the charter. Just simply, do you believe they are allowed to have a say?0 -
Can we call TERF's transphobes ?
What do people think ?0 -
Irish Kings wrote: »Can we call TERF's transphobes ?
What do people think ?
Of course. The whole ideology of trans exclusionary radical femininism is built on transphobia.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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In Ireland prisoners are housed according to their sex, not their declared gender, so we are less likely to have the problem we see now in the UK. That is a positive.
Even before self ID has been brought in, many UK many services are operating on the basis of self ID, with the obvious consequences.
When will activists take this threat to women seriously? Women do need protection from biological males, regardless of how they identify, and no one has demonstrated that they know how to recognise the'safe' nale-bodied people from the dangerous ones.0 -
Joeytheparrot wrote: »Of course. The whole ideology of trans exclusionary radical femininism is built on transphobia.
Reasoned debate and an effort to reach a mutually agreed consensus is dead in the water from the beginning if you start from the premise that any disagreement is evidence of being phobic.0 -
Slutmonkey57b wrote: »The thread is about the UK, not Ireland.
There have been very serious problems in the UK, and this is before self id becomes law.
The fact that you're not personally aware of any issues here doesn't have any relevance to what is going on in the UK, or indeed prove that there are no issues.
Question for you: at a fundamental level, do you believe that biological women have a right to any say in how a woman is defined? I'm not asking about what the definition of a woman is, nor am I trying to get around the charter. Just simply, do you believe they are allowed to have a say?
The thread is also about self identification rather than a long cumbersome bureaucratic process of recocgnition. Its significant that noone here can point to any problems with it here in Ireland. Its significant that some people here even thought the UK already had it. It shows that some people on this thread don't even know what they are talking about. There may be some problems of course but you know self id is completely achievable if we look at Ireland and other countries as examples.
In a functioning democracy everyone should have a say in the law of the land. So of course cis women should have a say but dont try and paint this all cis women against trans women. Many cis women have no problems with trans inclusion/trans womens rights to exist.
The problem in this discussion is some people here are trying to paint TERFs/Terf ideology as harmless. The reality is it is violent and harmful and effectively wants trans women to not exist.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Reasoned debate and an effort to reach a mutually agreed consensus is dead in the water from the beginning if you start from the premise that any disagreement is evidence of being phobic.
Terf ideology isnt reasoned debate. Its hateful transphobia.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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This discussion has been closed.
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