What IS the "Sport" of Archery?

RicardoSmith · 07-09-2003 11:20am #1

I haven't a clue what the "Sport" of "Archery" involves. I assume theres clubs since its an olympic event isn't it? I've only had a go on activity weekends. Anyone who knows something about like to fill in some details. Why would some do this instead of shooting which is probably similar is it? (other than the obvious difference of the bow/gun)

Runfree · 07-09-2003 11:39am

Well Archery is quite intresting I find.

Had a bow and arrows at one stage but lost all my arrows now can't get the aluminnium arrows anywhere.

I must buy a different bow anyway as the one that I have currently is quite crappy but it was good for when I was young as you didn't require that much strength to pull back(25lbs)

I just enjoy shooting at a target. Ok now I also enjoy shooting a gun aswell but its different as with a bow and arrow you need to curve your shot. because if you shoot your arrow over a long distance it will just drop to the ground.

halenger · 08-09-2003 12:50pm

If you're looking for equipment I'd suggest Bowsports. You'll find that they have a very good range of equipment. Alluminium arrows are very popular. I'm surprised you've not been able to find any but then again you need to be looking in the right places.

Easton are my personal brand of choice when it comes to arrows and they are very popular everywhere.

Runfree · 08-09-2003 1:48pm

Well Clonmel and Limerick aren't the best places to buy these arrows. They only have the wooden ones I'm afraid. Must go to cork or Dublin sometime though.

halenger · 08-09-2003 2:09pm

You wont find anything much in Dublin or Cork afaik. None in Dublin that I'm aware of at the moment.

Best bet is to order online (Bowsports). They are renowned for their speed of mail orders. I remember one of my friends getting her bow and equipment in two days!!! And this was about a week before Christmas!

Bowsports are a British company but I'd go with them. So do most in my club.

There are others: Quicks, AltServices and more I'm sure.

Runfree · 08-09-2003 2:40pm

Alright. Well probably go with them so.

shock · 08-09-2003 6:00pm

Well if your in america the "sport of Archery" realy means Hunting.
Over here it means shooting at targets from anything from 10 metres to 90, with the targets varying in size depending on the range and how good you are. e.g in indoor archery beginners shoot on a 60cm target at 18 metres, advanced archers shoot on a 40cm target at the same distance.

halenger · 08-09-2003 6:25pm

Well I wouldn't stick too much to the 60cm indoor thought. That's more of a college thing.

In all competition-that I'm aware of-we stick to FITA rules on the target face size...

10m is a general number too. Basically we start up close then ya can move on through the distances.

Unfortunately the olympics is only 70m outdoors but considering how well they do it makes sense. How do you figure out who wins when 50/100 people all shoot 300/300 on a 40cm face at 18m?!?!

Full FITA(they're the Archery governing body of the world) competition is 30, 50, 70, 90m.

There's other combinations of them too. 60m is sometimes used and there's a 25m indoor but it's not used often-not to my knowledge anyway.

In case anyone's wondering: Bow hunting is illegal in Ireland.

shock · 09-09-2003 7:32pm

well i havent even been practicing archery for a year so my knowlege of the formats outside college is limited(nonexistant).
And i wasnt suggesting anyone should go and try bowhunting, the least that'll happen is you'll get thrown out of your club, not sure what the law says is suitable punishment.

halenger · 09-09-2003 9:30pm

That was only a little side note at the end as I said... "In case anyone was wondering". People have been known to wonder-so I'm told!

Aryzel · 11-09-2003 10:08am

As regards archery equipment, there are as far as i know two shops in the republic, and i think another one in the north (not sure where that on is though).

Of the two here, one has just opened up in dublin, near crumlin childrens hospital, i can't find the contact details atm but their website is www.3arrowsarchery.ie
The other shop is well established and is in meath
you can get lots of details and directions from their site www.shootingstyle.com
These have prices somewhat like www.quicks.com

After that there are a several suppliers in the UK, www.altservices.co.uk and www.bowsports.com are the best priced, by a mile. also altservices allows you to get a Archery Association membership for 24 euros and it gives you 5% off everything, so if you spend more than 480 euros a year its worth it. Aside from the 5% but have very good prices, if your thinking of getting stuff look at what you want from both sites.
The last detail is postage, that will range anywhere from 10euro to 40euro, last time i bought stuff altservies had better postage, but these things change, if your buying just arrows expect ~15euro postage. Oh ya, these online shops prices can be a good 15/25 % cheaper than the other shops.

n'angle · 11-09-2003 10:13am

I find it odd that Shooting arrows from a bow can be compared to shooting bullets from a gun.... as being that same kind of sport!

I am involved with a High Power Target Shooting club and I have also done archery but believe me, they are not comparable.

Aryzel · 11-09-2003 11:20am

There used to be a swap shoot in UCD, where the archery and rifle clubs would shoot the others sport.

Both teams would shoot 30 shots with the air-rifles and 30 shots with the bows. The distance was 10m.
The targets for the air rifle were ~4/5cm i can't remember, what ever is the standard. and the targets for archery were the standard 40cm targets (normally shot at 18m).

Archery almost always won.

Archery is a lot slower starting off to get anyway decent at.
There are far more variables with shooting a bow that make it more difficult to get the same level of accuracy as a rifle, thats why people us guns in war not bows :P

A bad rifle shooter will have more accuracy with a rifle than all but the very best archer has with a bow.

shock · 11-09-2003 7:29pm

Archery's more fun because its harder than using a gun. also I nver knew there was a shop in crumlin, have to check that out, but i dont recommend shooting style we've had a lot of trouble getting stuff from them, the english shops are cheaper anyway even with postage.

Turin · 17-09-2003 2:57pm

Well speaking as someone with experiance with both Bows and Rifels/pistols/sub machine gun/ machine gun I can personally say that I find the skills needed to shoot either are quite similar. For example when shooting a bow you have to take in to acount the wind and target elevation. It is like wise with a rifle, you have to take in to account the wind speed, direction as well as adjusting the sight for target distance. and elevation.

The only reall bonus of rifles in that you can fire up to much further distances but you still have to be a good shot!! It is not the "Point and Click" that AF666X thinks it is!!!!!!!!!

af666x · 25-09-2003 10:24pm

Turin, it is point and click. Any idiot with a gun cal hit someone or kill something. A bow takes training and skill. Guns are for lazy people and cowards.

Gun for show, bow for pro.

Nuff said

RicardoSmith · 25-09-2003 10:35pm

Originally posted by af666x
Turin, it is point and click. Any idiot with a gun cal hit someone or kill something. A bow takes training and skill. Guns are for lazy people and cowards.

Gun for show, bow for pro.

Nuff said

I actually find that someone who good at one is good at the other, since the same skills are required. Equally someone whos bad at one is rarely good at the other. Dunno what your work rate, intelligence and courage have to do with it.

Turin · 26-09-2003 9:44am

Ok hang on AF666X. One word and it discounts that statement! You might not like it but that word is SNIPERS!

If guns are only for show and bows are for pros then why oh why do snipers not use a Hoyt AXIS or even a Hoyt Ultratec (compound) rather than a Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR) as used by the US Marine Corps, the SR-25 SD or the M40A1 sniper rifle as used by the US S.E.A.L.S??? There are others such as the Accuracy International sniper rifle used by our own Army Ranger Wing. As far as I am aware these men (and possibly women) are considered pros, do you not consider them profesional because they use a rifle rather than a bow?? Or has the time and money which has been spent on training someone to a Master Sniper standard been a waste because they are just for show??

In my opinion I don't think that Army Ranger Wing Sniper Team Leaders would agree! And neither do I!!

halenger · 26-09-2003 11:55am

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
I actually find that someone who good at one is good at the other, since the same skills are required. Equally someone whos bad at one is rarely good at the other.

*yawns*

Were you actually any good at shooting guns Turin? (Am trying to test your theory RicardoSmith)

af666x · 26-09-2003 12:59pm

What I'm saying, technique wise, snipers are inferior to archers - sure a sniper would kill an archer from however far away he was hidden but that's more to do with his equipment than any actual skill.

How does that sound?

Also, snipers are always out of harms way so anyone with a high powered rifle and a hiding place can be a sniper. You don't necessarily have to be a S.E.A.L. to be a sniper. I think this was proven last year in America and again this year. I'm aware that the older guy had military training, but his nephew did not.

Turin · 26-09-2003 6:16pm

First to Halenger, I can see where you are going with this and I would be the first to admit I'm not the best archer around! BUT to answer your question...

Qualfied marksman 4 times with the Belgian made FN 7.62mm rifle while with the FCA, minimum score 156/200 on ranges between 100-300m. Last time qualified was with a score of 18 5/200.

Qualified 3 times with the Swedish made Carl Gustaf 9mm sub machine gun which is an extremly difficult weapon to qualify on as the weapon itself is not very accurate past 10-15m and so is primarily used in CQC (Close Quater Combat).

Qualifed once with the Browning Atomatic Pistol (BAP) 9mm. Used as a sidearm during CQC.

Qualified 3 times with the Austrian made Styer 5.56 standard NATO issue ammunition. Again over ranges of 100-300m as well as moving practice and firing with a bayonet. (Also qualified instructor on this weapon)

And finally qualified twice with the General Purpose Machinegun (GPMG) wich is alos a very difficult weapon to qualify with due to recoil and kick back when firing!

I hope this answers your question.

Ok and now to af666x:
I agree that a snipers equipment does give him/her and advantage but it also come down to skill. As anyone who has hunted before will tell you the skills needed are Tracking, Stealth, and camoflauge. Apart from that a sniper also needs to know how to read the different winds ie speeds and direction also the elevation of the target the distance to the target and the terrain in question. As you say "anyone with a high powered rifle and a hiding place can be a sniper" with out the skills I have mentioned above you would have to be very lucky to make a clean kill from a far distance. If an archer is hunting he/she would also need to know the above skills so therefore the techniques are the same the only difference being an archer holds their weapon outstreached and uses more fingers than a sniper who holds his/her weapon into their shoulder and uses one Finger on the trigger!

RicardoSmith · 26-09-2003 11:31pm

Shooting a gun isn't that easy. Ever go shooting with work even paintball or clay pigeon and you'll realise most people are rubbish. We did it recently and everyone who was a decent shot could also do the archery pretty well too. The better people with a bow and arrow were the same people that were good with guns. They were also pretty deadly with a painball gun even though they aren't the most accurate.

In paint ball you can almost run indirectly at some people and they won't be able to hit you even from almost point blank range. Whereas others can consistantly get you from 20-30 ft. Which makes me think that you either have the eye and hand-cordination for shooting/archery or you don't.

A sniper or a trained marksman is consistantly accurate. However any one can get lucky and put a few shots on target

shock · 28-09-2003 3:40pm

Shooting a gun isnt that easy, but its easier than archery. you dont need to concentrate as much on how you hold a gun as how you hold a bow. Also its a lot easier to be consistently accurate with a gun then it is with a bow, especially if your using a sight.
With a decent gun, one which is fairly accurate, if you're using a sight once its adjusted all you have to worry about is wind strenght and direction.
When using a bow there are alot more factors involved in keeping your shots consistent. Even with a properly set up bowsight it can be very hard to get your arrows to group and even harder to get them to group where you're aiming.

Aryzel · 29-09-2003 11:34am

I think the point about guns being easier than bows to used is like this:

Take a complete beginner, one that has never held a bow or a gun. We're going to train him with both.

We'll consider two criteria,

Accuracy - how small a target can he hit
This depends largely on the weapon, not the shooter.
Guns are always going to win this so we'll leave it for the moment.

Consistency - the relative grouping of shots.
Obviously gun shots will be closer together, but we're talking about the relative grouping, in other words how much further or closer the shots are from the average distance between shots.
This depends largely on the skill of the shooter, not the weapon.
Some weapons allow you to learn more of this skill quicker than other weapons.

Now accuracy wise guns will win hands down.
Consistency wise guns have an inital advantage, you can gain a higher consistency skill quicker with guns than with bows, this is because guns have less variables in their use.

At the higher levels grouping will be largely down to the limits of the weapons, as pretty much be definition of higher levels they have near complete mastery of all variables in shooting a bow/gun.

In summary - starting off guns are much easier learn to shoot but top level shooters/archers are limited only by their weapon of choice.

af666x · 30-09-2003 1:19pm

Funny you should mention the whole paintball thing there. A group of us from archery went with another group from Phys/Eng last year. "Sniper" Turin was shot to pieces by me. He didn't even hit me once.

I found my hidey hole and lay in wait for victims. I also managed to shoot another fellow archer in the top of the head from well over 60ft away. Twas fun. And also a lot easier to hit things might I add.

As Azrael said, there are a lot more variables for bow shooting - right down to the way your fingers let go of the string. Harder to use but lots more fun.

RicardoSmith · 30-09-2003 1:30pm

Theres a lot of variables in paint ball accuracy too. But anyone can have an off day! Also its one thing to be good at shooting targets. Its another to be able to be accurate while being shot at especially if hurts!

af666x · 30-09-2003 2:28pm

I was and I did. I coped. lots of accuracy from a civilian like me. Not like military trained Turin over there! He ran without any cover. I didn't even do that. I was sensible. Not the great military genius he lets on to be.

RicardoSmith · 30-09-2003 2:41pm

While I like paintball the crappy equipment you get here, like in karting can make it a bit of a lottery and remove much of the skill from the game. Last time I played I had lots of dud paint balls. 2 out of 3 paintballs were duds and just either didn't fire properly or didn't fly properly. Pain in the butt. So the only choice is then to fire at point blank range and with multiple shots. Which is hugely expensive and quite painful. I had one ball bounce off a tree behind me and come up under my mask from behind. Had a massive bruise on my chin for a week. But thats down to rubbish paint. We complained lots but didn't get anywhere,

Renegade_Archer · 20-10-2003 4:46pm

Halenger wrote:

"Unfortunately the olympics is only 70m outdoors but considering how well they do it makes sense. How do you figure out who wins when 50/100 people all shoot 300/300 on a 40cm face at 18m?!?! "

Who has shot 300 at FITA18? I was unaware any recurve archer had achieved this.

Regards

Ewan

halenger · 21-10-2003 2:27am

Ok not exactly 300 but close enough! No need to be pedantic Ewan!

Recurve Men's World Records

Dropping 2 point from 600 at 25m indoor's pretty good and dropping only 3 at 18m is also pretty good.

Turin · 12-11-2003 11:20am

Alex said: "Sniper" Turin was shot to pieces by me.

One word to qualify that statement!!! BALLS!!!!!

I was shot too pieces by three or four people hiding behind rocks as myself and two others (who were covering me but got shot first) made a frontal assault on the fort while we were being covered by three others from approx 20-30 yards back!

The reason there was 3-4 people behind those rocks out of the 10-15 on the team is because ALL the others were "shot to pieces" By the rest of my platoon which had been sent out to flank you position and took out the most of you team! Before the attacking section even made a move!

This was not just my "millitary genius" as you put it, it was a coordinated attack with me leading the assault section another lad leading on the right flank and one of our own archers leading on the left flank!

The bonus was that all three section leaders had FCA/PDF Training!! therefore the 3-4 that shot up the assault section were the ones HIDING from the real fight!! As that was the one where all of our squad members moved to!

What IS the "Sport" of Archery?

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