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Poppy wreath on site of Easter Rising battlefield

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  • 08-11-2015 8:24pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭


    Yesterday I was on my way home from town when I saw the following on the railings of Mount St Bridge, Dublin site of a particularly fierce battle of the Easter Rising. There was a note on it which said something like.

    "In memory of the soldiers of the Sherwood Foresters who were ambushed and killed here during the Easter Rising and of all civilian victims. Lest we forget."

    I only returned today to take a photograph of it and in the meantime the note had disappeared, presumably thanks to the bad weather of the recent 24 hours so the quote above is only from memory.

    The engagement at Mount St Bridge is well known. There is indeed a long-standing republican monument to the event just around the corner from where this wreath was attached.

    Popular local recollection is that the Sherwood Foresters were rushed over to Dublin as reinforcements after the rebellion started and were unsure where they were. It was even suspected they might have thought they were in France where there was, after all, a World War taking place at the time. Though I doubt even back then in those more isolated times that the Dublin 4 accent was so indecipherable to the stout yeomen of Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire that they would mistake it for French or German.

    Certainly they were most ineptly led: they kept charging up Northumberland Road at the rebels ensconced in houses on the other side of the bridge and were slaughtered as a consequence. Nobody seemed to think they might hang a left at Haddington Road, scoot up to Hubband Bridge or Baggot St Bridge and outflank the rebels that way.

    Miners led by minors, one can't help thinking.

    My first reaction on seeing the wreath was "That's a bit cheeky! I wonder is there a memorial, temporary or permanent, in the East End of London to the casualties from the Luftwaffe who were killed in the skies above in 1940." Just to cite one example.

    And then I thought that there are plenty of British war cemeteries on the territory of former enemies throughout the world, not least in Germany and Turkey. And surely it's time to acknowledge the courage and sacrifice of the enemy soldiers as well now that bygones have long since been rendered bygones.

    Mind you, I don't believe for a second that the wreath was placed by British visitors or distant relatives of the Sherwood Forester soldiers. It's far more likely to have been placed by the type of sycophant who thinks that the soldiers of the British Army were our soldiers, that we were all on the same side and it's about time we pretended that that was always the case. In the name of reconciliation, of course.

    And it's a little disingenuous to have linked the deaths of the Foresters with "all civilian deaths" as if they were all caused by the same side. Which side, after all, was most responsible for the destruction of much of central Dublin, so graphically photographed by the newsreels of the time?

    To paraphrase Fluther Good in O'Casey's The Plough and the Stars, was it more likely to have been the "few hundred scrawls of chaps with shotguns and rosary beads" or their enemy the "thousands of trained soldiers with foot horse and artillery" (and gunboats)?

    Lest we forget.

    367945.jpg


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    I think that the unfortunate Sherwood Foresters were fresh recruits who were still training when they were rushed to Ireland. Here's a pic from the RTE series "Insurrection" which - apart from the CIE bus stop - is quite a good recreation.

    insurrection-still-note-cie-bus-stop.png

    https://irelandsmovies.wordpress.com/


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    "In memory of the soldiers of the Sherwood Foresters who were ambushed and killed here during the Easter Rising and of all civilian victims. Lest we forget."

    They were hardly ambushed. They came under fire as they advanced and a set piece fight ensued.

    Some English guy got onto Heather Humphries last year suggesting a joint memorial to the Volunteers & the Foresters in time for 2016 at the site. He was very respectful to the Volunteers & suggested a simple monument with the insignia of both Volunteers and Foresters with perhaps one sentence of suitable text underneath. I thought it was a good idea but it ain't happening.




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    The Sherwood Foresters were indeed undergoing basic training, at Watford, when they were hurriedly sent to Dublin. They had almost completed this training. It is believed that the recruits had not been informed of their destination initially, but arriving in Liverpool, they would have been aware that they were not heading to France.
    Marching into the city, from Kingstown / Dun Laoghaire, the destination was Kilmainham. One group went via Donnybrook and Leeson Street bridge, and reached it without incident. The second went via Ballsbridge intending to cross Mount Street bridge, but were ambushed at two points, first 25 Northumberland Road, then Clanwilliam House. Corralled between the two, the troops were mowed down.
    It would have been prudent to have diverted the second group via Pembroke Road, but the military authorities were adamant that this route must be taken at all costs. Truly they were lions led by donkeys.
    From the insurgents point of view, the battle of Mount Street bridge was by far the most successful action of the 1916 rising, and the two men in 25 Northumberland Road plus the small number in Clanwilliam House, must go down in history as very brave men. But from a human perspective the loss of so much human life was a tragedy.
    The soldiers who were slaughtered on Northumberland Road are worthy of commemoration as much as anyone else in this conflict.


  • Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭Dr.Nightdub


    The poppy wreath on Mount St Bridge was placed by Dublin & Wicklow L.O.L. 1313: https://www.facebook.com/Dublin-Wicklow-LOL-1313-128724713824787/

    I think it's interesting that the Orange Order is now commemorating the Sherwood Foresters as having been killed in a war rather than a rebellion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man



    Mind you, I don't believe for a second that the wreath was placed by British visitors or distant relatives of the Sherwood Forester soldiers. It's far more likely to have been placed by the type of sycophant who thinks that the soldiers of the British Army were our soldiers, that we were all on the same side and it's about time we pretended that that was always the case.


    Wow! I was right!!

    The poppy wreath on Mount St Bridge was placed by Dublin & Wicklow L.O.L. 1313: https://www.facebook.com/Dublin-Wicklow-LOL-1313-128724713824787/

    From said Facebook Page

    Dublin Orange men assemble on Mount Street Bridge in an act of remembrance to those who paid the ultimate supreme sacrifice in putting down the 1916 Rebellion. A rebellion which was aimed at replacing constitutional government with tyrannical government and civic peace and harmony with rape and murder of life and property. We like to thank the Belfast Telegraph for covering the event and the photography student from UCD. In addition, we thank those representatives from the "Reform Group" who also attended and the many fellow Dublin citizen who engaged us with voices of support. Going forward; Dublin orange men will be holding an annual act of remembrance on the bridge.

    There's a conciliatory attitude!! "rape and murder of life and property".

    And as for the "ultimate supreme sacrifice"! What kind of tautological talk is that?

    I think the main thing being "raped and murdered" in this passage is the Queen's English.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    The Belfast Telegraph covered the story.

    Mind you it was drowned out by a report about the anguish felt by some Ulster Rugby fans about their team NOT wearing a poppy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    Don't mind poppies and Remembrance (3 Gt Grandfathers killed as a result of WW1 plus 2 Gt Uncles and a number of other relatives). Something distasteful about the Orange Order and this effort.

    The book "The Sherwood Foresters in the Easter Rising Dublin 1916" came out recently by the Foresters archivist Cliff Housey. I think the call for a memorial to the Foresters came from this chap. The book itself has some good reference material re the Forester casualties but has some crud material on Irish history, lots of errors and typos, no references and sadly no acknowledgement of the Irish casualties suffered in the area e.g. the IAVTC men, CQMS Robert Gamble, Richard Waters, etc. Book is too expensive for what it is.

    Private Ernest Farnsworth was one of the Forester casualties in Dublin. Enlisted 5th October 1914 ie not a raw recruit in April 1916. He is not commemorated on the Nottingham Roll of Honour whereas his brother William who was killed in France in 1917 is on the roll. I'd suggest that those calling for a memorial should look at how the soldiers are remembered in England before calling for a memorial in Dublin.

    At the launch of "Courage Boys, We Are Winning" at the GPO 2 weeks ago there was reference to the Foresters being rewarded with the firing squad duties at Kilmainham for the mauling they got at Mount St. I cringe when this sort of nonsense is spouted.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    Who put them their?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,019 ✭✭✭davycc


    Who put them their?

    the kind deluded KKK like folk of the dublin and wicklow orange order badly rewriting their own version of history along with it :(

    'Dublin Orange men assemble on Mount Street Bridge in an act of remembrance to those who paid the ultimate supreme sacrifice in putting down the 1916 Rebellion. A rebellion which was aimed at replacing constitutional government with tyrannical government and civic peace and harmony with destruction of property and murder. We like to thank the Belfast Telegraph for covering the event and the photography student from UCD. In addition, we thank those representatives from the "Reform Group" who also attended and the many fellow Dublin citizen who engaged us with voices of support. Going forward; Dublin orange men will be holding an annual act of remembrance on the bridge. www.dublin1313.com'

    https://www.facebook.com/Dublin-Wicklow-LOL-1313-128724713824787/


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,020 ✭✭✭Call me Al


    Wow! I was right!!




    From said Facebook Page

    Dublin Orange men assemble on Mount Street Bridge in an act of remembrance to those who paid the ultimate supreme sacrifice in putting down the 1916 Rebellion. A rebellion which was aimed at replacing constitutional government with tyrannical government and civic peace and harmony with rape and murder of life and property. We like to thank the Belfast Telegraph for covering the event and the photography student from UCD. In addition, we thank those representatives from the "Reform Group" who also attended and the many fellow Dublin citizen who engaged us with voices of support. Going forward; Dublin orange men will be holding an annual act of remembrance on the bridge.

    There's a conciliatory attitude!! "rape and murder of life and property".

    And as for the "ultimate supreme sacrifice"! What kind of tautological talk is that?

    I think the main thing being "raped and murdered" in this passage is the Queen's English.

    I note they have edited their Facebook post.... No rape anymore!
    I am sure the 1916 commemoration would not be too thrilled with references and allegations such as that doing the rounds


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,302 ✭✭✭landofthetree


    In Robert Kees Ireland-A television history he interviews people who took part and witnesses to the battle. He even interviews British soldiers who took part.

    Ireland - A Television History - Part 8 of 13 - 'Rising' on youtube. At 31mins.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    the level of historical revision in that post is shocking, the Unionist community in the south is small but they have a right to commemorate "their" dead (I may strongly disagree with them but that doesn't effect their right) but blatant revisionism such as presenting 1916 as some sort of attempt to create despotism should not be supported by anyone interested in history


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    davycc wrote: »
    the kind deluded KKK like folk of the dublin and wicklow orange order badly rewriting their own version of history along with it :(

    'Dublin Orange men assemble on Mount Street Bridge in an act of remembrance to those who paid the ultimate supreme sacrifice in putting down the 1916 Rebellion. A rebellion which was aimed at replacing constitutional government with tyrannical government and civic peace and harmony with destruction of property and murder. We like to thank the Belfast Telegraph for covering the event and the photography student from UCD. In addition, we thank those representatives from the "Reform Group" who also attended and the many fellow Dublin citizen who engaged us with voices of support. Going forward; Dublin orange men will be holding an annual act of remembrance on the bridge. www.dublin1313.com'

    https://www.facebook.com/Dublin-Wicklow-LOL-1313-128724713824787/


    So Orange Fascism is still alive & well in the South. How much does our government give to scum to fund their halls?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    So Orange Fascism is still alive & well in the South. How much does our government give to scum to fund their halls?

    Quite a pretty penny during the Celtic Tiger years. I know guys who went to Flanders and the Somme on the back of such funding. Doubt they get much now though.

    Ironically it was Dev Jnr Jnr who gave them the wedge :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,020 ✭✭✭Call me Al


    Who are, or what is, the Reform Group they reference in that post?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,019 ✭✭✭davycc


    Call me Al wrote: »
    Who are, or what is, the Reform Group they reference in that post?

    first i heard of them but they promote the south of ireland rejoining the commonwealth apparently :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    davycc wrote: »
    first i heard of them but they promote the south of ireland rejoining the commonwealth apparently :D

    Well it's nor all that outrageous a suggestion and in the highly unlikely event that unity appears on the horizon some gesture will have to be made - other than two fingers. Anyway, it will never happen in either case.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle



    "In memory of the soldiers of the Sherwood Foresters who were ambushed and killed here during the Easter Rising and of all civilian victims. Lest we forget."

    And it's a little disingenuous to have linked the deaths of the Foresters with "all civilian deaths" as if they were all caused by the same side. Which side, after all, was most responsible for the destruction of much of central Dublin, so graphically photographed by the newsreels of the time?

    a link on my blog to some of the newsreels of the time (and some wrongly labelled as 1916)

    http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/easter-rising-damage-on-film.html

    Worth remembering that the School House caretaker and his wife were killed by the Foresters.

    Amongst the soldiers who would be commemorated with the general WW1 dead would be Private John O'Neill from Dublin. His younger brother William and his brother-in-law John O'Neill (a Boer War veteran of the British Army) were amongst those murdered by the South Staffs Regt in North King St.

    Private Brian Callender was killed in France while the Rising was going on. His wife and brother were with the rebels. Another brother was killed with the British Army in 1917. Brian Callender was one of the founders of the Fianna Pipe Band. His mother's restaurant provided the meals to Padraig Pearse before his journey to Kilmainham.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    davycc wrote: »
    first i heard of them but they promote the south of ireland rejoining the commonwealth apparently :D

    They do considerably more than that. I've been checking in on their website for about 10 years now and they can be quite virulent in their Unionism at times. Their recent frenzy over the new passport having a picture of Gaelic games on the inside is just one example. They're not too unlike their northern cousins.


  • Registered Users Posts: 386 ✭✭Nichard Dixon


    These guys do share the colonial perspective of those in the northern part of the coutry. They are a bit of an anachronism though, there are now more supporters of ISIS in Dublin than of the Orange Order, and both equally inappropriate in a 21st century society.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,599 ✭✭✭An Claidheamh


    Is the wreath still there? If so, why?

    Jokes on us. Our government funds these nutters.

    Reform group are a handful of sectarian oddballs who enjoy the masochism of living in Ireland while believing they're British or something.

    They're sad. David Norris I believe was involved with them before .... He gets around.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Is the wreath still there? If so, why?

    Jokes on us. Our government funds these nutters.

    Reform group are a handful of sectarian oddballs who enjoy the masochism of living in Ireland while believing they're British or something.


    Is it just that particular poppy wreath you object to?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    Is the wreath still there? If so, why?

    Jokes on us. Our government funds these nutters.

    Reform group are a handful of sectarian oddballs who enjoy the masochism of living in Ireland while believing they're British or something.

    They're sad. David Norris I believe was involved with them before .... He gets around.

    This David Norris?



    Seems he was involved in taking hem down a peg or two.

    I agree with the top part of your post tho. our government funding these nutters is like Britain helping to fund to the AOH the mirror image of the OO.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    50 facts about the rising says this;
    The Easter Rising was considered a betrayal at first by many of the Irish citizenry, and the 1916 leaders were spat at on their way to jail. It was only when the executions began that the national mood changed...

    Many of the leaders believed in the effectiveness of a ‘blood sacrifice’ to inspire Irish nationalism. Blood sacrifice was a very common theme of the times from the First World War. The severe punishment of ‘death by being shot’ served to those leading the rising inspired both Irish nationalism and British resentment, just as the Military Council hoped.
    So it was far from being a democratic movement. It sought to overthrow British rule by violence, instead of working for a proper democratic mandate from the people.

    It is disgraceful that the Irish govt funds the Orange Order, and works to secure EU funding for them too.

    But if we are going to talk about fascism, nobody was more fascist than Padraic Pearse. It is also disgraceful that the govt. funds St Endas in Rathfarham as a monument to him. A place where he trained young boys in pseudo military style, like lambs to the slaughter. Filled their heads with hate, extreme nationalism and notions of blood sacrifice and martyrdom. Then there is the young girl who died and was working as a nude sculpture model there for the other Pearse brother. There's definitely a whiff of the paedophile about that place.
    Although it is known that he was close to one of his child models, Mabel Gorman, his letters to her do not survive, and there is no sense of what was at the heart of that relationship or what it amounted to. It is, we are told, “hard to evaluate the reasons for the sustained friendship with Mabel”. It may be that Willie had a “natural understanding of children”
    from article

    If the rebels had won, Pearse would have become another Franco, and a civil war with Connolly's socialists would have been inevitable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    recedite wrote: »
    50 facts about the rising says this;
    So it was far from being a democratic movement. It sought to overthrow British rule by violence, instead of working for a proper democratic mandate from the people.

    It is disgraceful that the Irish govt funds the Orange Order, and works to secure EU funding for them too.

    But if we are going to talk about fascism, nobody was more fascist than Padraic Pearse. It is also disgraceful that the govt. funds St Endas in Rathfarham as a monument to him. A place where he trained young boys in pseudo military style, like lambs to the slaughter. Filled their heads with hate, extreme nationalism and notions of blood sacrifice and martyrdom. not to mention the young girl who was killed there in suspicious circumstances, working as a sculpture model for the other Pearse brother. There's definitely a whiff of the paedophile about that place.

    If the rebels had won, Pearse would have become another Franco, and a civil war with Connolly's socialists would have been inevitable.
    A lot of conjecture in this. Plus in relation to your last sentence there was a civil war anyway so its not much of an argument against Pearse to say a civil war was inevitable if he had won. In any case did the rebels not achieve their 1916 aim?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    In any case did the rebels not achieve their 1916 aim?
    Yes indeed, you could say the blood sacrifice "paid off" for the rebels. The Sherwood Foresters may have won the battle, but their equal willingness to patriotically die for their country is not celebrated as a glorious sacrifice by anyone (except a handful of orangemen). So you could say the British army may have won the battle, but they ultimately lost the war.

    If the rebels had waited until after SF won the elections before launching an insurrection, we could remember them as the heroic defenders of the first Dail, the protectors of democracy.
    That's assuming of course that in a different atmosphere of WW1 victory in 1918, a grateful Britain wouldn't have negotiated a 32 county home rule arrangement acceptable to the majority in north and south. Thereby leaving SF on the fringes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    recedite wrote: »
    So it was far from being a democratic movement. It sought to overthrow British rule by violence, instead of working for a proper democratic mandate from the people.

    How many of the rank and file Sherwood Foresters at Mount St were eligible to vote? Ditto their parents, siblings and wives?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Only about 56% of adult males could vote before 1918, but subsequently all men over the age of 21 and most women over the age of 30 could.
    Unjust by today's standards, but in 1916 it was thought that only people who owned their own house or some form of property were sufficiently invested in the stability of society to vote responsibly.

    With the end of WWI everything was changed, women were working in the fields and in factories in Britain, and the absolute power of the gentry was at an end. The so called "working classes" were already getting a basic education. The Easter Rising was not a contributory factor to any of those changes.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    I don't see any problem with rembering soldiers but I do take issue with the fascist symbol.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    recedite wrote: »
    Only about 56% of adult males could vote before 1918, but subsequently all men over the age of 21 and most women over the age of 30 could.
    Unjust by today's standards, but in 1916 it was thought that only people who owned their own house or some form of property were sufficiently invested in the stability of society to vote responsibly.

    With the end of WWI everything was changed, women were working in the fields and in factories in Britain, and the absolute power of the gentry was at an end. The so called "working classes" were already getting a basic education. The Easter Rising was not a contributory factor to any of those changes.


    how would you have got a democratic mandate in Ireland in 1916?


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