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The Irish famine?

124

Comments

  • #152
    ChicagoJoe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 372 ✭✭ChicagoJoe


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    As I said, you can read my history if you like, it shows pretty conclusively that I am English.

    I deliberately post with an English nationalist slant to play devil's advocate, but that is irrelevant to any of my points. They remain valid. When it comes to Irish history, anyone who doesn't accept the republican narrative is written off as a west brit any way.
    I find that peculiar as you only seem to play devil's advocate only on topics relating to Irish experiences and mainly with comments that seem to deny or snigger at nationalism. But you show little interest on other topics, say the Vikings, Romans etc and cetainly didn't play devils advocate on them :confused: Interestingly also this devil's advocate you claim happens to swallow hook, line and sinker every British half baked excuse for everything whether it be Ireland or anywhere else such as India, Middle East, WW1, WW2, ??

    There's nothing to make anyone think your just one of our unionist friends is there Fred :)


  • #153
    kingchess
    Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭kingchess


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    As I said, you can read my history if you like, it shows pretty conclusively that I am English.

    I deliberately post with an English nationalist slant to play devil's advocate, but that is irrelevant to any of my points. They remain valid. When it comes to Irish history, anyone who doesn't accept the republican narrative is written off as a west brit any way.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »

    Those that died in the famine were exploited and their memory continues to be exploited today, although now for political/nationalist reasons.

    Do this mean you are exploiting the Famine for political/nationalist reasons??And what is an English Nationalist?-is it the same as a British Nationalist ,for example, Nigel Farage??


  • #154
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    ChicagoJoe wrote: »
    I find that peculiar as you only seem to play devil's advocate only on topics relating to Irish experiences and mainly with comments that seem to deny or snigger at nationalism. But you show little interest on other topics, say the Vikings, Romans etc and cetainly didn't play devils advocate on them :confused: Interestingly also this devil's advocate you claim happens to swallow hook, line and sinker every British half baked excuse for everything whether it be Ireland or anywhere else such as India, Middle East, WW1, WW2, ??

    There's nothing to make anyone think your just one of our unionist friends is there Fred :)

    Oh Joe, you really love throwing the accusations around.

    I'm not sniggering at Irish, or nationalists, just the foaming at the mouth uber patriots who are so blinded by their xenophobic hatred of the British they start believing little fairy stories.


  • #155
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    kingchess wrote: »
    Do this mean you are exploiting the Famine for political/nationalist reasons??And what is an English Nationalist?-is it the same as a British Nationalist ,for example, Nigel Farage??

    In what way am I exploiting the famine?


  • #156
    kingchess
    Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭kingchess


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    In what way am I exploiting the famine?

    I posted your quotes above my question,you said you deliberately post with an English Nationalist slant,and in the second quote you said people who died in the Famine were being exploited for political/nationalist reasons,I wondered were you talking about yourself??:D.


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  • #157
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    kingchess wrote: »
    I posted your quotes above my question,you said you deliberately post with an English Nationalist slant,and in the second quote you said people who died in the Famine were being exploited for political/nationalist reasons,I wondered were you talking about yourself??:D.

    They used to speak English in Cork once. Pity about today.
    In simple terms, the need to promote 'nationalism' caused a certain 'interpretation' and slant on historical events to suit 'the cause'. Look for example at what happened to Hill 60.


  • #158
    kingchess
    Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭kingchess


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    They used to speak English in Cork once. Pity about today.
    In simple terms, the need to promote 'nationalism' caused a certain 'interpretation' and slant on historical events to suit 'the cause'. Look for example at what happened to Hill 60.

    Thanks for answering a question that was not asked ,and also for totally missing the point of the question that was asked ,of another Poster:cool:Remember to always read and understand the question before attempting to answer-something every Teacher have told their students at one time or another:) Some students are not inclined to pay attention and babble away;) pity about that.


  • #159
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    kingchess wrote: »
    Thanks for answering a question that was not asked ,and also for totally missing the point of the question that was asked ,of another Poster:cool:Remember to always read and understand the question before attempting to answer-something every Teacher have told their students at one time or another:) Some students are not inclined to pay attention and babble away;) pity about that.

    It seems I was correct about English in the PRC!

    What gave you the notion I was responding on behalf of Fred? He is more than able to deal with people like you.

    The topic has moved (in cased you have not grasped that yet) to the exploitation of history by nationalists for their own ends. You tried to personalise that and as you attempted a smart-a$$ed response to my post, you are either being obtuse or the reference I made went straight over your head; I strongly suspect the latter!:D


  • #160
    kingchess
    Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭kingchess


    I asked a question and you saw fit to quote my question and give an answer to some other question?.I did not ask you a question but I DID ASK fratton fred a rather tongue in cheek question.Please read and try harder to understand my post before you make a rather bigger fool of yourself than is absolutely necessary,


  • #161
    Crann na Beatha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #162
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭eire4


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    It seems I was correct about English in the PRC!

    What gave you the notion I was responding on behalf of Fred? He is more than able to deal with people like you.

    The topic has moved (in cased you have not grasped that yet) to the exploitation of history by nationalists for their own ends. You tried to personalise that and as you attempted a smart-a$$ed response to my post, you are either being obtuse or the reference I made went straight over your head; I strongly suspect the latter!:D



    The topic has not moved in the direction your suggesting it has other then you yourself and another poster keep trying to go there.


    I cannot speak for others but certainly I have been consistent and clear it is important that we honour and remember those who suffered in that most traumatic and horrible of events in our history. For instance as I have said I believe the current National Famine Memorial Day should be made into a fixed date national holiday. It is not about point scoring or anything else other then honouring and remembering. To hate is easy to forgive much harder and if some want to hate then that is there right but I think it is safe to say that is not the view point of the majority of Irish people. For me this thread for me is about respect and rememberance.


  • #163
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭eire4


    Phoenix wrote: »
    What was the total native Irish speaking population at the time of the famine?



    Of the 3m or so Irish who either died or emigrated the majority of those were native Irish speakers. By the time of the Famine the majority of those who were still native Irish speakers were to a large extent part of the degraded and impoverished Irish underclass.


  • #164
    Andrew Purfield
    Registered Users Posts: 116 ✭✭Andrew Purfield


    eire4 wrote: »
    Of the 3m or so Irish who either died or emigrated the majority of those were native Irish speakers. By the time of the Famine the majority of those who were still native Irish speakers were to a large extent part of the degraded and impoverished Irish underclass.

    Coogan puts it at 2 million dead and almost 2 million emigrated, based on British figures available.

    You are right though re. this point.

    It was a deliberate policy of the likes of Trevalyn and the various absentee landlords in Cabinet to make the Famine worse and indeed accelerate it to clear the land and let 'Providence' take its' course.

    Mass graves all over Ireland and the 'Republicans' so called are the ones accused of revisionism and using history to back up their own 'prejudices'.

    I am reminded of a famous Edmund Burke phrase that applies here.


  • #165
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭eire4


    Andrew Purfield wrote: »
    Coogan puts it at 2 million dead and almost 2 million emigrated, based on British figures available.

    You are right though re. this point.

    It was a deliberate policy of the likes of Trevalyn and the various absentee landlords in Cabinet to make the Famine worse and indeed accelerate it to clear the land and let 'Providence' take its' course.

    Mass graves all over Ireland and the 'Republicans' so called are the ones accused of revisionism and using history to back up their own 'prejudices'.

    I am reminded of a famous Edmund Burke phrase that applies here.





    You might well be more accurate then me with those numbers certainly.


  • #166
    Andrew Purfield
    Registered Users Posts: 116 ✭✭Andrew Purfield


    eire4 wrote: »
    You might well be more accurate then me with those numbers certainly.

    I agree with the idea the National Commemoration day should be a public memorial day, as in a Public Holiday to remember the tragedy btw.


  • #167
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    eire4 wrote: »
    The topic has not moved in the direction your suggesting it has other then you yourself and another poster keep trying to go there.
    I cannot speak for others but certainly I have been consistent and clear it is important that we honour and remember those who suffered in that most traumatic and horrible of events in our history. For instance as I have said I believe the current National Famine Memorial Day should be made into a fixed date national holiday. It is not about point scoring or anything else other then honouring and remembering. To hate is easy to forgive much harder and if some want to hate then that is there right but I think it is safe to say that is not the view point of the majority of Irish people. For me this thread for me is about respect and rememberance.

    The topic originally was the Famine, a zombie thread resurrected by you after a three & a half year silence. (There are far better, newer, threads on the Famine to resurrect had you bothered to look.) The Famine dead are honoured and remembered, it’s just that your ‘cheval de bataille’ is calling for a bank holiday (a proposal with which nobody has agreed until a few moments ago!) and your repetitive calls make you sound like a scratched record and add nothing to the Famine topic.

    Like it or not for your argument, this discussion has centred on the use of propaganda by the nationalist cause, leading to erroneous claims by those with an agenda – typically non-historians such as TP Coogan (trying to sell a flawed notion & book), who, as Fred said above, had his "Genocide" book thrashed by several reputable historians, e.g. one on radio here and his factually incorrect claims refuted by me with sources here and by law students who took his notions apart in an inter-university debate in NYC a year ago. Embarrassing.

    Unfactual, unresearched nonsensical OT claims have been posted by some others, typically this
    Andrew Purfield wrote: »
    Now we have this other Gobshyte coming out with a comedy on Channel four about it. And people wonder why 'Republicans' get upset.
    Je suis Charlie ;)

    and this
    Andrew Purfield wrote: »
    We basically have 4-5 posters on here looking to blame the famine on the Irish themselves because later generations used the memory to kick the Brits out of the 26 counties and cos it's a traumatic national memory that Shinners supposedly use for propaganda(cos no English nationalism is used for propaganda and Cromwell does not have a statue outside Westminster at all at all at all).
    More OT nonsense. Nobody (certainly not I) has blamed the Famine on the Irish. Contrary to your view, the history of the Famine is not black and white, it has many shades of grey and the Brits are not entirely to blame. There was a spike in population; cottier/peasant farmers subdivided again and again into uneconomic holdings, permission for this being given not by the landlord, but by the Irish middleman, often in contravention of the head lease. When that process was slowed/prevented by realistic Agents (Trench, for e.g. on the Lansdowne properties) those agents were praised by many (including some of the clergy) but in later years were excoriated by nationalists as they wanted to use the victims of the Famine for their own uses as a propaganda tool. Use of such an event as propaganda is not new – Israel, South Africa, Algeria, wherever you stick a pin on a map you will find an example.

    And Hill 60 has long gone over the head of kingchess, who clearly does not understand the reference.:D Depth, and all that.


  • #168
    kingchess
    Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭kingchess


    Understand all about Hill 60 ,And you still do not understand my post-it seems to have floated right over your head, it seems your rather limited intellect can not read what is written in simple enough terms,But that is your problem and not mine,:rolleyes:


  • #169
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭eire4


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    The topic originally was the Famine, a zombie thread resurrected by you after a three & a half year silence. (There are far better, newer, threads on the Famine to resurrect had you bothered to look.) The Famine dead are honoured and remembered, it’s just that your ‘cheval de bataille’ is calling for a bank holiday (a proposal with which nobody has agreed until a few moments ago!) and your repetitive calls make you sound like a scratched record and add nothing to the Famine topic.

    Like it or not for your argument, this discussion has centred on the use of propaganda by the nationalist cause, leading to erroneous claims by those with an agenda – typically non-historians such as TP Coogan (trying to sell a flawed notion & book), who, as Fred said above, had his "Genocide" book thrashed by several reputable historians, e.g. one on radio here and his factually incorrect claims refuted by me with sources here and by law students who took his notions apart in an inter-university debate in NYC a year ago. Embarrassing.

    Unfactual, unresearched nonsensical OT claims have been posted by some others, typically this

    Je suis Charlie ;)

    and this


    More OT nonsense. Nobody (certainly not I) has blamed the Famine on the Irish. Contrary to your view, the history of the Famine is not black and white, it has many shades of grey and the Brits are not entirely to blame. There was a spike in population; cottier/peasant farmers subdivided again and again into uneconomic holdings, permission for this being given not by the landlord, but by the Irish middleman, often in contravention of the head lease. When that process was slowed/prevented by realistic Agents (Trench, for e.g. on the Lansdowne properties) those agents were praised by many (including some of the clergy) but in later years were excoriated by nationalists as they wanted to use the victims of the Famine for their own uses as a propaganda tool. Use of such an event as propaganda is not new – Israel, South Africa, Algeria, wherever you stick a pin on a map you will find an example.

    And Hill 60 has long gone over the head of kingchess, who clearly does not understand the reference.:D Depth, and all that.





    A zombie thread funny. If there are other threads that are so much better then this one nobody is forcing you to post here. Not sure why you would even bother making the statement if I had bothered to look at other Famine threads. If this thread is that beneath you do not bother posting here.


    The National Famine Memorial Day is a much more recent event having first only taken place in 2008. The main event has been rotated between the 4 provinces and this years event is due to be held somewhere in Ulster. In 2011 the main event was held in Clones. Given the official National Famine Memorial Day is only 6 years old it is an example that we as a countty are still only now fully dealing with the horrible trauma that was the Famine in an official capacity. I think given the sheer imensity of the Famine and its massive effect on our country not just at the time but for so long afterward I believe that it should be elevated to a full national public holiday status for us in an official capacity to properly honour it, show our respects and remember.


    Yourself and Fred seem very concerned with bashing and point scoring on this thread and certainly that is your right. I have no interest in your point scoring and bashing. I simply wish to see one of the seminal events in the history of our country properly honoured and remembered.




    I am confident I am on safe ground in saying the majority of Irish people want and firmly believe in peace in Ireland and have a desire to see the peace process be an unqualified success. If yourself and Fred and the "Uber nationalists" you seem so concerned with want to find a corner and keep up old hates thats your right. The rest of us will get on with looking forward and fully honouring respecting and remembering the Famine without any point scoring and bashing as part of that process.


  • #170
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    eire4 wrote: »
    I am confident I am on safe ground in saying the majority of Irish people want and firmly believe in peace in Ireland and have a desire to see the peace process be an unqualified success. If yourself and Fred and the "Uber nationalists" you seem so concerned with want to find a corner and keep up old hates thats your right. The rest of us will get on with looking forward and fully honouring respecting and remembering the Famine without any point scoring and bashing as part of that process.

    ???:confused:
    That is one weird post! I am a supporter of the peace process; I also am a supporter of history when it is factual. I have an interest in genealogy and have researched the lives and roles of my direct ancestors and some collateral lines during the Famine period, which is why I have considerably more than a basic knowledge of the events. The nonsensical claims of people like Coogan and many posters here should be shown for what they are - that is not 'hatred', it is love of truth.

    Just because I do not agree with your call for a bank holiday does not suggest I do not honour or respect Famine victims and it is inappropriate for you to infer or state otherwise.


  • #171
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    kingchess wrote: »
    Thanks for answering a question that was not asked ,and also for totally missing the point of the question that was asked

    Pedro **********************


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  • #172
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    kingchess wrote: »
    .... it seems your rather limited intellect can not read what is written in simple enough terms,But that is your problem and not mine,:rolleyes:

    Forum is for discussion, not namecalling "your rather limited intellect ".

    Infraction for this. Any objection should be by PM.

    Moderator


  • #173
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    eire4 wrote: »
    Of the 3m or so Irish who either died or emigrated the majority of those were native Irish speakers. By the time of the Famine the majority of those who were still native Irish speakers were to a large extent part of the degraded and impoverished Irish underclass.

    Provide source r.e. the number of Irish speakers please.


  • #174
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Pedro *******************************.
    Do not discuss other users in this way, post deleted and if it happens again you will get infraction. Take heed of this as a lenient warning.

    Moderator


  • #175
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭eire4


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    Provide source r.e. the number of Irish speakers please.




    Nuala Ni Dhomhnaill "A Ghostly Alhambra"


  • #176
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    eire4 wrote: »
    Nuala Ni Dhomhnaill "A Ghostly Alhambra"

    Aaaah………Nuala……She who talks about the “collective unconscious” and the need to freeze in the deep recesses of our minds bits of experimental history and pre-Famine culture.

    I rather doubt the suitability, merit or the value of her unverified insights would be accepted as a suitable source for a debate on history, even at LC level. But maith an chailin, Nuala a file, tá tú lán dúchais is grádh, gan fhios gan eolas, le ciúnas gan crá.

    Personally, I’m more a Myles man, and leave the recesses of the mind to the brother, above in the bedroom with a jug of hair dev fornenst his elbow!

    No wonder the Mods are driven distracted.:rolleyes:


  • #177
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭eire4


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    Aaaah………Nuala……She who talks about the “collective unconscious” and the need to freeze in the deep recesses of our minds bits of experimental history and pre-Famine culture.

    I rather doubt the suitability, merit or the value of her unverified insights would be accepted as a suitable source for a debate on history, even at LC level. But maith an chailin, Nuala a file, tá tú lán dúchais is grádh, gan fhios gan eolas, le ciúnas gan crá.

    Personally, I’m more a Myles man, and leave the recesses of the mind to the brother, above in the bedroom with a jug of hair dev fornenst his elbow!

    No wonder the Mods are driven distracted.:rolleyes:




    Ahh more bashing. Are you saying that the majority of those who died and or emigrated during the famine were not native Irish speakers?


    Irish was in decline due to colonization and at the time of the Famine was able to survive the best in the more remote rural parts of Ireland which also tended to be the areas hardest hit by the famine.




    Edwards and Williams "The Great Famine Studies In Irish History" is another reference.


  • #178
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    eire4 wrote: »
    Ahh more bashing. Are you saying that the majority of those who died and or emigrated during the famine were not native Irish speakers?
    It's not bashing, it is simply making the point that poetic stream of consciousness ramblings by a poet are not an acceptable source in a debate on history. And why do you consistently try to attribute "stuff" to me that I never either said or intimated? Many (not all) of those who emigrated spoke only Irish, a fact that hindered both their survival and integration in their new countries. The history books are full of examples.
    eire4 wrote: »
    Irish was in decline due to colonization and at the time of the Famine was able to survive the best in the more remote rural parts of Ireland which also tended to be the areas hardest hit by the famine.

    The decline of Irish had very little to do with colonization. The Irish language was in serious decline long before its final 'nail' of the Famine - Daniel O'Connell, for example, from the very early 1800's was encouraging Irish people to learn English to better themselves. Study after study has proven that Irish was in terminal decline before the Famine. Former Taoiseach Garrett Fitzgerald for e.g. wrote several interesting papers on the topic.

    Yes, I agree that Irish survived in the bogs and hill country; and yes the remote rural parts of Ireland were the hardest hit by the Famine. That is no big discovery, it's common knowledge. The language survived because those areas were the most economically unviable and had a relatively static population. There was prolonged agrarian depression after the Napoleonic Wars, there were no industrial jobs in the cities (unlike in England and Scotland) to soak up excess population, and even if there were, the 'young' from the 'sticks' would not have been employable because they did not speak English! So the young stayed at home, married, subdivided and subdivided plots to eke out a subsistence living, totally vulnerable to fluctuations in commodity prices or crop yields, pitiably vulnerable to being exploited by marginally bigger farmers to work as day labourers in an already overcrowded market. Or ousted off their one-acre "garden" by one of their very marginally better off neighbours. Read about the agrarian violence (particularly around Famine time), read about the 'grabbers', look at the crime rate statistics. (NUI Maynooth has some very good material on this).
    It must be a killer to the uber nationalist guys you mentioned earlier that it was a bunch of West Brits that were the saviours of the Irish language and cultural artifacts & heritage - Hyde, Stokes, Wilde, Synge, Lloyd, Petrie, Dunraven, etc. - not an O' or a Mc among them to shake a stick at!:D
    eire4 wrote: »
    Edwards and Williams "The Great Famine Studies In Irish History" is another reference.
    Lots of better sources available, Dudley-Edwards is not 'up there' with those that carry weight.

    And while we are on the decline of Irish, the various attempted 'revival(s)' of the language have been an absolute farce in this country - the present campaign, PEIG, has possibly the worst possible name of any advertising campaign, ever, anywhere in the world because that bloody woman (along with Liam na Giuise and Jimin Maire Thadhgh) did more to put people off the language than anyone or anything else!


  • #179
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭eire4


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    It's not bashing, it is simply making the point that poetic stream of consciousness ramblings by a poet are not an acceptable source in a debate on history. And why do you consistently try to attribute "stuff" to me that I never either said or intimated? Many (not all) of those who emigrated spoke only Irish, a fact that hindered both their survival and integration in their new countries. The history books are full of examples.



    The decline of Irish had very little to do with colonization. The Irish language was in serious decline long before its final 'nail' of the Famine - Daniel O'Connell, for example, from the very early 1800's was encouraging Irish people to learn English to better themselves. Study after study has proven that Irish was in terminal decline before the Famine. Former Taoiseach Garrett Fitzgerald for e.g. wrote several interesting papers on the topic.

    Yes, I agree that Irish survived in the bogs and hill country; and yes the remote rural parts of Ireland were the hardest hit by the Famine. That is no big discovery, it's common knowledge. The language survived because those areas were the most economically unviable and had a relatively static population. There was prolonged agrarian depression after the Napoleonic Wars, there were no industrial jobs in the cities (unlike in England and Scotland) to soak up excess population, and even if there were, the 'young' from the 'sticks' would not have been employable because they did not speak English! So the young stayed at home, married, subdivided and subdivided plots to eke out a subsistence living, totally vulnerable to fluctuations in commodity prices or crop yields, pitiably vulnerable to being exploited by marginally bigger farmers to work as day labourers in an already overcrowded market. Or ousted off their one-acre "garden" by one of their very marginally better off neighbours. Read about the agrarian violence (particularly around Famine time), read about the 'grabbers', look at the crime rate statistics. (NUI Maynooth has some very good material on this).
    It must be a killer to the uber nationalist guys you mentioned earlier that it was a bunch of West Brits that were the saviours of the Irish language and cultural artifacts & heritage - Hyde, Stokes, Wilde, Synge, Lloyd, Petrie, Dunraven, etc. - not an O' or a Mc among them to shake a stick at!:D


    Lots of better sources available, Dudley-Edwards is not 'up there' with those that carry weight.

    QUOTE]




    Yes you are bashing as you did once again when I offered up another source in my last post pretty much as I figured you would with your comment lots of better resources available. You bashed Nuala Ni Dhomhnaill as a rambling poet and as not an acceptable source. Thats bashing. You do not place any value in her opinions thats fine but that is all it is your opinion. She makes some very interesting points when she talks about the famine and has a valid contribution to make and interesting insights to make.

    I am glad we did get to clarify one point in that you acknowledge that the majority of those who died or emigrated were indeed native Irish speakers.




    I have to say your credibility takes a real nose dive with the comment....
    "The decline of Irish had very little to do with colonization"
    The colonization of Ireland especially after the conquest was basically completed in the 17th century was the direct reason for the decline of the Irish language. The British worked very hard to surpress Irish culture working hard to surpress the Catholic religion, Irish education and Irish language and customs. You are correct the Irish language was in serious decline well before the famine as a direct result of the British policy in surpressing Irish culture and language. As as direct result of Irelands colonization the language of business and education was English hence the Irish were forced to learn English if they wanted a chance to get ahead economically thus Daniel O'Connell's urgings.




    I have no idea who exactly these "uber nationalist" are I was referencing as you well know Fred as he seems obsessed with these guys whoever they are as he never has been able to clearly identify who they are. As for Douglas Hyde etc I can only say from my standpoint I think it is great the work they did for the Irish language. If that paragraph and the not an O or Mc to shake a stick at is supposed to be a dig its pretty sad really. The people you mentioned and others like Lady Gregory did so much wonderful work that really enhanced Ireland culturally.


  • #180
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Again you use the emotive word of ‘bashing’ – I am not bashing anything, I am dismissing Nuala Ni Dhomhnaill as an acceptable source for ascertaining the numbers of Famine dead. As a source for Irish poetry great, but history/Famine statistics?? Not a hope of any credibility!

    In a History Ireland article here, the historian Christine Kinealy (much loved by some posters here !) writes about your other 'source'
    In the influential but flawed book edited by Edwards and Williams and first published in 1956, both the editors and the contributors chose to avoid the unpalatable question of excess mortality, admitting only that ‘many, many people died’ (see James S. Donnelly, Jr., ‘The Great Famine: its interpreters, old and new’ in HI Autumn 1993). Other accounts have argued that the Famine merely accelerated demographic trends already under way before 1845.
    How many people did die during the Famine? Although precise mortality figures are not available, estimates based on contemporary government returns and statistical analyses undertaken by econometric historians have computed excess mortality to have been at least one million people.
    Claims by Coogan et al of 2 million simply are not correct, and he as usual panders to his audience and prostitutes 'history'.

    Perhaps I did not write my comments on Irish and ‘colonization’ clearly enough. We are discussing the Famine era, at which time the effects of colonization on Irish were long over. The language was in near terminal decline for economic reasons, nobody was interested in it. FWIW, Irish was also spoken beyond the ‘hills and bogs’ - in an old Journal of the RSAI there is a report on an interview with one of my ancestors on placenames and a historic monument on his land in Tipperary and a side-note mentions that his grandmother (born c1800, my third great grandmother) was ‘a native speaker’. Neither he, born in 1850, nor his parents (b 1825 &1829) spoke the language.

    Even if the Famine did not happen, do you honestly think we would be speaking Irish today?


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  • #181
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    The decline of Irish had very little to do with colonization.

    eire4 wrote: »
    I have to say your credibility takes a real nose dive with the comment....
    "The decline of Irish had very little to do with colonization"

    You would think that would be quite obvious but neo-colonial revisionists are hellbent on turning everything entirely on its head. Its the fashionable thing to do these days even if it is historically grossly inaccurate and quite devious.

    Who knows what their agenda is? Probably something to do with getting revenge on the Christian Brothers where they had a hard time at school.


  • #182
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Pedro's a good lad though. Cheers for that Tim Pat Coogan vs the Queens University chap link, Pedro. It was good listening. I have to say that I think the Queens lad defeated Coogan quite comfortably.

    Coogan was talking some sh*te to be fair


  • #183
    ChicagoJoe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 372 ✭✭ChicagoJoe


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    It's not bashing, it is simply making the point that poetic stream of consciousness ramblings by a poet are not an acceptable source in a debate on history. And why do you consistently try to attribute "stuff" to me that I never either said or intimated? Many (not all) of those who emigrated spoke only Irish, a fact that hindered both their survival and integration in their new countries. The history books are full of examples.


    The decline of Irish had very little to do with colonization. The Irish language was in serious decline long before its final 'nail' of the Famine - Daniel O'Connell, for example, from the very early 1800's was encouraging Irish people to learn English to better themselves. Study after study has proven that Irish was in terminal decline before the Famine. Former Taoiseach Garrett Fitzgerald for e.g. wrote several interesting papers on the topic.
    Citing that buffoon Fitzgerald as a credible source of history - are you joking :D Who next, Conor Cruise O'Brien, Kevin Meyers, Eoghan Harris :D
    Yes, I agree that Irish survived in the bogs and hill country; and yes the remote rural parts of Ireland were the hardest hit by the Famine. That is no big discovery, it's common knowledge. The language survived because those areas were the most economically unviable and had a relatively static population. There was prolonged agrarian depression after the Napoleonic Wars, there were no industrial jobs in the cities (unlike in England and Scotland) to soak up excess population, and even if there were, the 'young' from the 'sticks' would not have been employable because they did not speak English! So the young stayed at home, married, subdivided and subdivided plots to eke out a subsistence living, totally vulnerable to fluctuations in commodity prices or crop yields, pitiably vulnerable to being exploited by marginally bigger farmers to work as day labourers in an already overcrowded market. Or ousted off their one-acre "garden" by one of their very marginally better off neighbours. Read about the agrarian violence (particularly around Famine time), read about the 'grabbers', look at the crime rate statistics. (NUI Maynooth has some very good material on this).
    It must be a killer to the uber nationalist guys you mentioned earlier that it was a bunch of West Brits that were the saviours of the Irish language and cultural artifacts & heritage - Hyde, Stokes, Wilde, Synge, Lloyd, Petrie, Dunraven, etc. - not an O' or a Mc among them to shake a stick at!:D
    " Unfactual, unresearched nonsensical OT claims have been posted by some others, typically this " ;)

    Lots of better sources available, Dudley-Edwards is not 'up there' with those that carry weight.

    And while we are on the decline of Irish, the various attempted 'revival(s)' of the language have been an absolute farce in this country - the present campaign, PEIG, has possibly the worst possible name of any advertising campaign, ever, anywhere in the world because that bloody woman (along with Liam na Giuise and Jimin Maire Thadhgh) did more to put people off the language than anyone or anything else!
    Yes such as Diarmaid Ferriter, Gerard MacAtasney, Meda Ryan, you certainly could do with having a good read of them. I would have thought it couldn't be more obvious that various British education acts from the 1700's (Maynooth been among the first) done more damage to Irish than poor old Peig could in a thousand years. And of course since the majority of Irish speakers tended to be poorer so more likely to die or emigrate due to the economic and social conditions imposed by the British laws.


  • #184
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    eire4 wrote: »
    Yourself and Fred seem very concerned with bashing and point scoring on this thread and certainly that is your right. I have no interest in your point scoring and bashing. I simply wish to see one of the seminal events in the history of our country properly honoured and remembered.

    Tell me, when you read Andrew Purfield's posts, what are your thoughts?

    Do you believe that Drogheda took the Sultans symbol as their crest out of gratitude?

    Do you believe Queen Victoria's donation of £2000 (around £120,000 in today's money) was pathetic?

    Do you believe that she instructed the sultan not to contribute more and then ordered the navy to block his ships from entering port?

    What is your opinion?


  • #185
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Do you believe Queen Victoria's donation of £2000 (around £120,000 in today's money) was pathetic?

    Do you Fred?


  • #186
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭eire4


    Fred I am glad you copied the quote from me you did. As I said in it I have no interest in your point scoring and bashing. I am simply interested in one of the seminal events in our history being remembered and honoured.

    In short my opinion is that the National Famine Memorial Day should be declared a national public holiday. We current have a few national public holidays that are called bank holidays. I certainly think honouring the National Famine Memorial Day at the same status as the bank holidays as a national public holiday would be a very positive move.


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  • #187
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Do you Fred?

    £120,000 sounds like a lot to me.


  • #188
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    eire4 wrote: »
    Fred I am glad you copied the quote from me you did. As I said in it I have no interest in your point scoring and bashing. I am simply interested in one of the seminal events in our history being remembered and honoured.

    In short my opinion is that the National Famine Memorial Day should be declared a national public holiday. We current have a few national public holidays that are called bank holidays. I certainly think honouring the National Famine Memorial Day at the same status as the bank holidays as a national public holiday would be a very positive move.

    Nicely avoided.

    Do you think the points I raised are point scoring?

    If you want those that died to be properly honoured, surely exploiting their death for political means should be stopped, no?


  • #189
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    £120,000 sounds like a lot to me.

    Victoria donated £2000, thats £0.002 for each of her approx. 1,000,000 subjects who died of starvation.

    Does that still seem like a lot?


  • #190
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭eire4


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Nicely avoided.

    Do you think the points I raised are point scoring?

    If you want those that died to be properly honoured, surely exploiting their death for political means should be stopped, no?



    To answer your first question, Yes.


    To answer your second question the majority of Irish people are very much in favour of the peace process so if you and as you call them the "uber nationalists" whoever they are, want to continue trading pot shots and point scoring in the corner go ahead to your hearts content. There will always be contrary naysayers.The rest of us will continue to pursue a peaceful Ireland that also honours and remembers our past.


  • #191
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    eire4 wrote: »
    To answer your first question, Yes.


    To answer your second question the majority of Irish people are very much in favour of the peace process so if you and as you call them the "uber nationalists" whoever they are, want to continue trading pot shots and point scoring in the corner go ahead to your hearts content. There will always be contrary naysayers.The rest of us will continue to pursue a peaceful Ireland that also honours and remembers our past.

    So you'd agree then, that a suitable part of this imaginary "peace process", the actual truth of the famine should be discussed and the myths created to suit agendas should be dispelled?


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  • #192
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    £120,000 sounds like a lot to me.

    Please tell me you just did not say that :o


  • #193
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Arsemageddon wrote: »
    Victoria donated £2000, thats £0.002 for each of her approx. 1,000,000 subjects who died of starvation.

    Does that still seem like a lot?

    Yes it does if you look at the figure in an unbiased and informed perspective.

    Firstly, the Queen gave £2,000 as a personal donation, not one from government coffers and it was a very indicative ‘statement’, being an an open invitation, encouragement/enticement for others to contribute. It worked, as others contributed considerable amounts, as mentioned earlier by Fred.

    Secondly, Fred is not correct in giving the present day value of £120k for her donation, as his figure appears to be based on the Retail Price Index, which IMO is not a good comparison indicator. Using the “Economic Power” comparison, the value would be about £5.5 million. A more appropriate comparison would be with the “Average Earnings” so in today’s values her gift would be about £1.4 to £1.5 million

    Thirdly, the daily rate for a labourer in the early 1840’s was 9d per day, so the Queen’s £2k amounted to paid work for 53,333 man-days – nearly the equivalent of hiring 180 men for a year. Today’s cost of doing that at minimum wage is about €5 million.

    Finally, I’m glad that you are using the more realistic death figure of about 1 million.


  • #194
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Tweedledee and Tweedledum...


  • #195
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    Yes it does if you look at the figure in an unbiased and informed perspective.

    Firstly, the Queen gave £2,000 as a personal donation, not one from government coffers and it was a very indicative ‘statement’, being an an open invitation, encouragement/enticement for others to contribute. It worked, as others contributed considerable amounts, as mentioned earlier by Fred.

    Secondly, Fred is not correct in giving the present day value of £120k for her donation, as his figure appears to be based on the Retail Price Index, which IMO is not a good comparison indicator. Using the “Economic Power” comparison, the value would be about £5.5 million. A more appropriate comparison would be with the “Average Earnings” so in today’s values her gift would be about £1.4 to £1.5 million

    Thirdly, the daily rate for a labourer in the early 1840’s was 9d per day, so the Queen’s £2k amounted to paid work for 53,333 man-days – nearly the equivalent of hiring 180 men for a year. Today’s cost of doing that at minimum wage is about €5 million.

    Finally, I’m glad that you are using the more realistic death figure of about 1 million.

    I accept that her donation of £2,000 was better than nothing and that it acted as a stimulus for private citizens to donate to famine relief.

    However, the notion that her donation amonted to 'a lot of money' is ridiculous when viewed in the context of her overall wealth. For example, herself and Albert agreed to purchase the Balmoral estate in 1848 for £32,000. This transaction was completed in 1852 and does not include the cost of demolishing the existing house and construction of Balmoral Castle.

    Furthermore Victoria's personal greed is well recorded. She frequently received loot from colonial campaigns and squirelled away money from her civil list allowance to add to her personal fortune. After the death of Albert she became something of a recluse, refusing to carry out here official functions. A notable exception to this was when she opened parliament in 1871 (one of only four times she did so in the following 32 years), her primary motive being that parliament was imminently due to vote on royal allowances.

    The comtemporary radical popular pamphlet 'what does she do with it?' regarding Victoria's avarice has subsequently been proven by Historical research to have been very accurate.


  • #196
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    ^^
    Freddy's not going to like that :P


  • #197
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭eire4


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    So you'd agree then, that a suitable part of this imaginary "peace process", the actual truth of the famine should be discussed and the myths created to suit agendas should be dispelled?



    As I said if you and the "uber nationalists" whoever they are, as you call them want to continue bashing each other and point scoring in the corner go for it. The majority of Irish people are very much in support of the peace process.


    I must say as well it is very sad that you cannot even acknowledge the peace process. Very sad but as I said there will always be naysayers.


  • #198
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Arsemageddon wrote: »
    I accept that her donation of £2,000 was better than nothing and that it acted as a stimulus for private citizens to donate to famine relief.

    However, the notion that her donation amonted to 'a lot of money' is ridiculous when viewed in the context of her overall wealth. For example, herself and Albert agreed to purchase the Balmoral estate in 1848 for £32,000. This transaction was completed in 1852 and does not include the cost of demolishing the existing house and construction of Balmoral Castle.

    Furthermore Victoria's personal greed is well recorded. She frequently received loot from colonial campaigns and squirelled away money from her civil list allowance to add to her personal fortune. After the death of Albert she became something of a recluse, refusing to carry out here official functions. A notable exception to this was when she opened parliament in 1871 (one of only four times she did so in the following 32 years), her primary motive being that parliament was imminently due to vote on royal allowances.

    The comtemporary radical popular pamphlet 'what does she do with it?' regarding Victoria's avarice has subsequently been proven by Historical research to have been very accurate.

    I think that is a rather biased and inaccurate interpretation given the context of the era and events. You might like to read this on Jstor which gives an opposite interpretation of your claims.

    Prior to the Great Famine, Irish famines tended to be single-year events – it is easy today to criticise actions in 1845-9 with the benefit of hindsight and our knowledge that the Famine lasted for upwards of five years. Of course I agree that there was mismanagement, but it and other actions must be assessed in the light of the knowledge, mores and criteria of the era.

    A simple fact remains - Victoria was the largest single donor to famine relief, it was a substantial sum of money in itself, and led to a one-hundredfold amount (£200k) being raised. Compare that with the USA (which had huge ties to Ireland) - that same year, the US Senate tried to provide Famine relief, but failed to get it passed. The US President, James Polk, made a $50 donation, which had to be hammered out of him according to media reports. The following year (1848) the US under Polk tried – and failed - to buy Cuba from the Spanish for $100 million.

    I like to see things in perspective.


  • #199
    ChicagoJoe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 372 ✭✭ChicagoJoe


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Tell me, when you read Andrew Purfield's posts, what are your thoughts?

    Do you believe that Drogheda took the Sultans symbol as their crest out of gratitude?

    Do you believe Queen Victoria's donation of £2000 (around £120,000 in today's money) was pathetic?

    Do you believe that she instructed the sultan not to contribute more and then ordered the navy to block his ships from entering port?

    What is your opinion?
    Why would someone be bothered answering any of your questions as your form on the thread shows your ready to reject any answers given no matter what facts presented and then you'll ask more questions only to reject any answers to them as well ?


  • #200
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    ChicagoJoe wrote: »
    Why would someone be bothered answering any of your questions as your form on the thread shows your ready to reject any answers given no matter what facts presented and then you'll ask more questions only to reject any answers to them as well ?

    Be quiet Joe, the adults are talking.


  • #201
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Be quiet Joe, the adults are talking.

    Mods Mods! Someone's being insulting!!!!


    (Does that ring a bell Frederick???)


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