Female only professorships

An_Toirpin · 16-12-2018 7:03am

fits wrote: »

Newly qualified male primary teachers walk into jobs as far as I know.

Lets not undermine them with such generalisations. Just like we shouldnt make rumours that female academics walked into their jobs.

Caquas · 03-01-2020 7:26pm

18 women-only jobs at the top-level of our Universities, with 4 more in the other 3rd. level institutions. And that is only the start.

http:// https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/green-light-for-first-20-women-only-professor-roles-in-higher-education-38830975.html"]http:// http:// https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/green-light-for-first-20-women-only-professor-roles-in-higher-education-38830975.html[/URL]
Min. MMO’C is so proud of her initiative that she buries it with a leak to the Indo on 3 January. I assume these posts are supernumerary i.e. they exist solely because the politicians want them. I’d love to know who actually got these plum jobs. I’m not reassured by this:

An expert international panel, chaired by Professor Lesley Yellowlees of the chemistry department of Edinburgh University, assessed the applications and made recommendations.

Even if these were real jobs, this initiative could only be justified if the gender imbalance in such appointments is caused by a systemic bias against women and the government had no other means of redress. Politicians often treat correlation to mean causation but it is the worst error in the social sciences. Will the government hire women carpenters to redress the egregious imbalance in the construction sector?

Imagine the ruckus if they had forced the universities to take 18 loyal FG members?! What chance these jobs will go to any woman who is not 100% committed to the liberal agenda?

Will any woman in academia challenge this politicisation of our academic institutions?

Black Swan · 03-01-2020 7:52pm

Caquas wrote: »

http://https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/green-light-for-first-20-women-only-professor-roles-in-higher-education-38830975.html

Your link does not load. I've tried it twice.

Caquas wrote: »

Even if these were real jobs, this initiative could only be justified if the gender imbalance in such appointments is caused by a systemic bias against women and the government had no other means of redress.

I've sat on faculty search committees (but across the pond), and our 1st criterion is the qualification of candidates, not gender. If after candidates have been short-listed by qualifications, and the discipline has historically been underrepresented by gender, only then may this be a consideration, although there are no guarantees for a gender preference.

Caquas wrote: »

Politicians often treat correlation to mean causation but it is the worst error in the social sciences. Will the government hire women carpenters to redress the egregious imbalance in the construction sector?

Correlation is a necessary, but insufficient condition towards estimating and explaining causation. There are other conditions that must also be present.

Caquas wrote: »

Will any woman in academia challenge this politicisation of our academic institutions?

Do you have scholarly peer-reviewed journal articles to suggest this is a problem; i.e., empirical, research based, not news media?

Asitis2019 · 03-01-2020 8:01pm

Regarding second level teaching, I seem to recall reading in Freakonomics (can't remember of first or second book) that the average IQ of female teachers has been falling over several decades. The reason being is that in the past that most intelligent women went into teaching because there were few other opportunities. Today, however, as there are more opportunities for those comparably intelligent women, the IQ naturally declines.

Regarding this initiative, it is clearly unlawful, and I don't believe there is a glass ceiling in academia.

Black Swan · 03-01-2020 8:07pm

Asitis2019 wrote: »

Regarding second level teaching, I seem to recall reading in Freakonomics (can't remember of first or second book) that the average IQ of female teachers has been falling over several decades. The reason being is that in the past that most intelligent women went into teaching because there were few other opportunities. Today, however, as there are more opportunities for those comparably intelligent women, the IQ naturally declines.

IQ has been a greatly debated measure of intelligence in terms of validity and reliability. Caution should be exercised accordingly.

shesty · 03-01-2020 8:09pm

Hunky Monster wrote: »

87% of teachers in primary schools are female.

71% of teachers in secondary schools are female.

Can we have the same rules apply for men here, oh no wait that’s sexist.

But when my mother did primary teaching back in the...60s, I think it was...teaching was predominantly male.I did Engineering myself and from what she says, the proportion of men to women when she did teaching was similar enough to when I did engineering in the 2000s.

What changed?

Myself, as an engineer, I don't particularly like initiatives that are as direct as this.I am all for opening some doors for women, once their qualifications are acceptable.But specifically making jobs women only...I would just feel like everyone said I got the job because I was a woman, and as a result, ignore my actual qualifications for the job.(to clarify.I am female!)

Asitis2019 · 03-01-2020 8:11pm

These professorships are not necessary

If we believe in equality, then may the best man or woman win. In most cases both can win - unless there are caps on promotion

Asitis2019 · 03-01-2020 8:14pm

Black Swan wrote: »

IQ has been a greatly debated measure of intelligence in terms of validity and reliability. Caution should be exercised accordingly.

That's a cop out argument

How would the trend be altered if another measure of IQ/G was used?

Black Swan · 03-01-2020 8:42pm

Asitis2019 wrote: »

That's a cop out argument

You are not aware of this IQ debate that has gone on over the decades? There are perhaps hundreds of scholarly sources that address and debate the problematic use of IQ as a measure of intelligence. To add substance from an IQ review article in a peer-reviewed scholarly journal that addresses your "cop out argument:"

Ken Richardson (June 2002). What IQ Tests Test. Theory and Psychology Vol 12, issue 3, page(s): 283-314. Abstract: "...there is still little scientific agreement about how human intelligence should be described, whether IQ tests actually measure it, and if they don't, what they actually do measure. The controversies and debates that result are well known."

Asitis2019 · 03-01-2020 8:45pm

Black Swan wrote: »

You are not aware of this IQ debate that has gone on over the decades? There are perhaps hundreds of scholarly sources that address and debate the problematic use of IQ as a measure of intelligence. To add substance from an IQ review article in a peer-reviewed scholarly journal that addresses your "cop out argument:"

Ken Richardson (June 2002). What IQ Tests Test. Theory and Psychology Vol 12, issue 3, page(s): 283-314. Abstract: "...there is still little scientific agreement about how human intelligence should be described, whether IQ tests actually measure it, and if they don't, what they actually do measure. The controversies and debates that result are well known."

Yes, I am aware.

But I still abide that it is a cop out argument because you have not addressed how deficiencies in reliability and/or validity would alter the trend?

Black Swan · 03-01-2020 9:28pm

Asitis2019 wrote: »

But I still abide that it is a cop out argument because you have not addressed how deficiencies in reliability and/or validity would alter the trend?

Where are the empirical details that include specific research design, variable operationalisations, collection, analysis, results, and limitations given? You did not specify them, consequently, only generic answers may apply in their absence. Furthermore, in science we can not prove, only suggest, so long as the preponderance of data continues to support your "trend."

Upon further reflection, I do not know what you are saying above. I'll take a guess in replying, given the nonspecific limitations noted above. Reliability is a necessary but insufficient condition for estimating and explaining validity; i.e., no reliability; no validity. But you can have reliability without validity; e.g., misspelling the same word over and over again is highly reliable but invalid. I can "trend" line (descriptively) such misspellings, but in terms of establishing and explaining validity, we may end up with spurious outcomes.

In terms of this "trend" you "seem to recall reading in Freakonomics," without specific details as to how this "trend" may have been measured, at this moment in time, it is mere subjective hearsay and anecdotal. You have not given empirical evidence that would suggest if this "trend" was descriptive or inferential, or what independent and dependent variables were measured, or excluded, or controlled, or what the explained and unexplained variance was if inferential.

Consequently, my nonspecific answers to your nonspecific comments that you "seem to recall" were consistent with each other, and not your cliche and superficial "cop out" ad hominem.

Asitis2019 · 03-01-2020 9:52pm

Black Swan wrote: »

Where are the empirical details that include specific research design, variable operationalisations, collection, analysis, results, and limitations given? You did not specify them, consequently, only generic answers may apply in their absence. Furthermore, in science we can not prove, only suggest, so long as the preponderance of data continues to support your "trend."

Upon further reflection, I do not know what you are saying above. I'll take a guess in replying, given the nonspecific limitations noted above. Reliability is a necessary but insufficient condition for estimating and explaining validity; i.e., no reliability; no validity. But you can have reliability without validity; e.g., misspelling the same word over and over again is highly reliable but invalid. I can "trend" line (descriptively) such misspellings, but in terms of establishing and explaining validity, we may end up with spurious outcomes.

In terms of this "trend" you "seem to recall reading in Freakonomics," without specific details as to how this "trend" may have been measured, at this moment in time, it is mere subjective hearsay and anecdotal. You have not given empirical evidence that would suggest if this "trend" was descriptive or inferential, or what independent and dependent variables were measured, or excluded, or controlled, or what the explained and unexplained variance was if inferential.

Consequently, my nonspecific answers to your nonspecific comments that you "seem to recall" were consistent with each other, and not your cliche and superficial "cop out" ad hominem.

You are still deflecting from my question - how would a purported deficiency in reliability and/or validity alter the trend?

I don't have the answers to your question, though if I did have time on my hands I could write a research paper on said topic :rolleyes:

Tree · 03-01-2020 11:00pm

I'm delighted these posts have been announced. Systemic imbalances can only be addressed head on.

Fathom · 03-01-2020 11:01pm

Asitis2019 wrote: »

Regarding second level teaching, I seem to recall reading in Freakonomics (can't remember of first or second book) that the average IQ of female teachers has been falling over several decades.

Complete citation for Freakonomics? Author? Year? Which book? Page number(s)?

Asitis2019 wrote: »

The reason being is that in the past that most intelligent women went into teaching because there were few other opportunities. Today, however, as there are more opportunities for those comparably intelligent women, the IQ naturally declines.

Reason how determined? Theory? Or study results? Or both? Study only citied in Freakonomics? Or conducted by Freakonomics? Or by others and cited by Freakonomics? If latter, what study or studies? Citation(s)?

Fathom · 03-01-2020 11:06pm

Caquas wrote: »

18 women-only jobs at the top-level of our Universities

18 out of how many top-level jobs? Populations of equivalent vacancies by discipline? By university?

Fathom · 03-01-2020 11:22pm

Tree wrote: »

I'm delighted these posts have been announced. Systemic imbalances can only be addressed head on.

Can't speak for Ireland. US universities get federal grants. OFCCP and EEOC have goals and timetables self-established by universities. Affirmative Action Plans filed annually to OFCCP and EEOC by universities. Plans cover underrepresented demographic categories by discipline, rank, etc. Gender is one of them. If universities fail to show a serious and documented attempt to hire qualified candidates in underrepresented categories, they may lose part of all of their federal funding (examples: NIH; NSF; DOD; EPA; etc.). For flagship universities, this source of funding is huge.

Caquas · 04-01-2020 11:34am

Black Swan wrote: »

Your link does not load. I've tried it twice.

.....

Do you have scholarly peer-reviewed journal articles to suggest this is a problem; i.e., empirical, research based, not news media?

I can’t get the link to work but just go to independent.ie.

Do you need scholarly peer-reviewed journal articles to see that these appointments are a problem? Or do you mean the existence of systemic gender bias? If there was such evidence about Irish academic appointments, I’m sure the Minister would have trumpeted it.

Black Swan · 06-01-2020 6:53pm

Caquas wrote: »

I can’t get the link to work but just go to independent.ie.

OK.

Caquas wrote: »

Do you need scholarly peer-reviewed journal articles to see that these appointments are a problem?

Scholarly research and articles may better articulate what would make for an excellent research topic and project, if there is little to find in the literature at present. I have not conducted a search. Certainly, the problem that may or may not exist with this gender preference system would be examined at a greater depth than what news media sources (independent i.e.) may discuss.

Steve456 · 06-01-2020 7:52pm

Asitis2019 wrote: »

Regarding second level teaching, I seem to recall reading in Freakonomics (can't remember of first or second book) that the average IQ of female teachers has been falling over several decades. The reason being is that in the past that most intelligent women went into teaching because there were few other opportunities. Today, however, as there are more opportunities for those comparably intelligent women, the IQ naturally declines.

I expect Freakonomics was referring to:

'Do Alternative Opportunities Matter? The Role of Female Labor Markets in the Decline of Teacher Quality' by Marigee P Bacolod, The Review of Economics and Statistics, Vol. 89, No. 4 (Nov, 2007), pp. 737-751

Abstract: This paper explores the impact of the expansion in professional opportunities that American women faced on teacher supply and teacher quality. Using standardized test scores, undergraduate institution selectivity, and positive assortative mating characteristics as measures of quality, evidence of a marked decline in the quality of young women going into teaching is documented. In contrast, the quality of young women becoming professionals increased. The more teachers are paid relative to professionals, the more likely educated women and blacks are to choose to teach. When wage opportunities in teaching become relatively less attractive, the quality of teachers and prospective teachers declines. These effects of relative earnings are economically significant.

Asitis2019 wrote: »

Regarding this initiative, it is clearly unlawful, and I don't believe there is a glass ceiling in academia.

The Attorney-General has a different opinion as to legality, it seems. I expect that some tribunal somewhere will be asked to decide between your view and his relatively soon.

Fathom · 07-01-2020 5:00pm

Steve456 wrote: »

'Do Alternative Opportunities Matter? The Role of Female Labor Markets in the Decline of Teacher Quality' by Marigee P Bacolod, The Review of Economics and Statistics, Vol. 89, No. 4 (Nov, 2007), pp. 737-751 Abstract: This paper explores the impact of the expansion in professional opportunities that American women faced on teacher supply and teacher quality.

Interesting comparative study from America. Any Irish research?

Female only professorships

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