False rape accusation...who would you believe?

Joining this late but the title of the thread "False rape accusation.... who would you believe" is confusing. If you knew it was a false accusation then why would you belive the accuser?

Do you mean. Accusation of rape denied.... who do you believe, accuser or defended?

Without knowing eithers character I would not take a side because it would be stupid do so.

ittakestwo wrote: »

Joining this late but the title of the thread "False rape accusation.... who would you believe" is confusing. If you knew it was a false accusation then why would you belive the accuser?

Do you mean. Accusation of rape denied.... who do you believe, accuser or defended?

Without knowing eithers character I would not take a side because it would be stupid do so.

I meant to say this ages ago then forgot to.

walshb wrote: »

How do you know?

I have read many cases where "evidence" presented was what the woman said vs what the man said. He said she said....

Yes, he said she said with arguments for it on both sides, but still a case of he said she said, and a jury deciding on who they believe to be telling the "truth."

How do I know? I explained to you how I know in the very next sentence -

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The prosecution has to present evidence to support their case. That’s quite a bit more than simply he said/she said, but if you wanted to stick to the he said/she said paradigm, then far more men have been found not guilty of rape when she said it did happen

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/defendants-in-rape-trials-should-not-be-anonymous-says-judge-1.3703425

(Northern Ireland)

Defendants in rape trials should not be anonymous, says judge
Confidence-building measures for complainants ‘who fear the cruel glare of public exposure’ are vital
about 16 hours ago

Myths

Sir John also said he was anxious to challenge the myths about rape which included: victims who drink alcohol or use drugs are asking to be raped; victims provoke rape by the way they dress or act; victims cry rape when they regret having sex or want revenge; victims who remain in an abusive relationship are responsible for any rape that follows; and false allegations are rife.

If even one person has cried rape after regretting sex or wanting revenge, then it is not a myth.

ittakestwo wrote: »

Joining this late but the title of the thread "False rape accusation.... who would you believe" is confusing. If you knew it was a false accusation then why would you belive the accuser?

Do you mean. Accusation of rape denied.... who do you believe, accuser or defended?

Without knowing eithers character I would not take a side because it would be stupid do so.

py2006 wrote: »

I meant to say this ages ago then forgot to.

I've always taken the title of this thread to be more of a reference to the situation that arises after the accused party has been cleared of the allegations - that he "slipped through the cracks", that the case was somehow rigged, that basically he got "away with it".

It's still happening even for a high profile case such as the Belfast one - it gets referred in discussion as to how "victims" need "more protection" and that "perpetrators" should be treated in harsher ways; Actually heard someone talking about a "reform" of the laws around rape in a direction that basically assumes "guilty until proven innocent" on the radio a few days ago, and she kept going on "like in the Belfast case".

Sure enough these guys are total twats (let's be honest about it, they're professional sportspeople...except for the odd case, being insufferable pr1cks kinda comes with the profile), but they don't deserve to keep being inferred as to be "rapists who got away with it"...

iptba wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/priests-denied-full-catholic-funeral-if-they-die-while-facing-sexual-abuse-allegations-887819.html

How very Italian of them...pretending "we don't know this guy!", basically...

Also, feel like this is one of these "no-win" scenarios...keep in mind, there's very little I despise more than priests/the curch, so I *might* be a *tiny bit* biased here

Lux23 wrote: »

You've obviously never been raped.

You've obviously never had your life destroyed by a false accusation


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5837985/forklift-driver-took-own-life-false-rape-accusation/

Pelvis wrote: »

Which would your prefer?

Although your question was not directed to me, It peaked my interest and i had a think about it.

I decided if one of these awful things would happen to me.

I would rather be raped assuming there was not torture/grievous body harm caused on top of it.

I could heal from that i think.

If i was falsely accused, I would spend lots of time in jail if found guilty.. or at the least, I would be incredibly socially isolated and shamed. I knew someone who was accused, and his life fell apart.. Lots his job, his friends, had to move.
The case fell apart well enough as the girls story changed and evidence in text messages proved otherwise (she deleted them and clearly didnt know how technology works).

Obviously this is hypothetical, i've never been raped, nor falsely accused/fond guilty.

Pelvis wrote: »

Which would your prefer?

Neither. Can't we just not be raped and not lie?

Defunkd wrote: »

A meme doing the rounds on 9gag is about Brian Banks who was accused of raping a classmate in school. Was looking at 41 years to life if convicted but took a plea deal which would see him get probation and no prison time. He got sentenced to 6 years and served them while the rape victim sued the school for $1.5M.
In 2011, the victim contacted Banks through FB, met with him and admitted she fabricated the story. Banks secretly recorded the conversation but it was deemed inadmissable as evidence by the Court, since the rape victim didn't consent to being recorded and she didn't sign a confession.
Banks was eventually cleared of all charges and the school has countersued the rape 'victim' Wanetta Gibson, who has unsurprisingly disappeared along with the money.



Another one i spotted recently: UK woman gets jailed for false rape claims
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/24/woman-falsely-accused-15-men-rape-sexual-assault-jailed-ten/amp/

Dont think anybody doubts that false accusation occur. But look at the ratio of the number convicted rapist to the number of people charged with a false accusation to give you an idea of how common it is.

Defunkd wrote: »

What is the ratio?



The woman in the first case is only being sued by the school. No criminal charges for giving false statements, wasting police time, perjury, etc.

Have no idea what the ratio is.

For what it's worth I would guess the amount accusations of rape reported to the garda that are false would probably be less than 10%...... what would you think it would be?

By the fact the two case you linked to are not even in this country probably indicates the amount of people being charged for a false rape accusation as being tiny here as presumably you would have linked case closer to home.

Actually has there even been a conviction of a false rape accusation in Ireland?

But this whole thread is basically that. Nobody knows if a accusation is true or not unless a person actually witnesses it. But the OP is asking people who they would believe... probably asking them what their intuition is from thier experience.

I agree tho. On such a serious matter it does not seem right to speculate

Defunkd wrote: »

I was not replying to the OP and neither were you.

The point is that this thread is a speculative thread, do you agree or not?

Earlier I said I had no idea of the statistics of false accusations convictions to the amount of actual rape convictions but speculated it was very low. Then you said well then your opinion is not worth much.... but nobody's opinion is therefore worth anything on this thread as nobody has an idea of those statistics .... unless you do??

This thread is a speculative thread... you can tell that by its title.

Defunkd wrote: »

The two cases i posted about aren't speculation, they are factual and this is the only thread relating to false rape accusations.
You introduce the ratio aspect; admit you don't know it (if only there were some way to search for such information *wink) and then say that speculation is okay. I can't argue against that line of thinking!

The thread title is ''False rape accusation...who would you believe?'' That is a speculative question.

The number of convictions for rape compared to the number of convictions of a false allegation of rape would give an indication of the percentage of rape accusations that are made up.

I would guess its low and nobody here has statistics on it. You have trawled the internet and have found two cases of a false rape accusation in a different jurisdiction which again suggest a false rape accusations as being uncommon as presumably you would be referencing false rape convictions in Ireland to push your agenda.

ittakestwo wrote: »

The thread title is ''False rape accusation...who would you believe?'' That is a speculative question.

The number of convictions for rape compared to the number of convictions of a false allegation of rape would give an indication of the percentage of rape accusations that are made up.

I would guess its low and nobody here has statistics on it. You have trawled the internet and have found two cases of a false rape accusation in a different jurisdiction which again suggest a false rape accusations as being uncommon as presumably you would be referencing false rape convictions in Ireland to push your agenda.

K

Well a little googling got me these results.

Kerry woman given suspended sentence for making false rape claim. Cheats on boyfriend and then cries rape to cover it up. Two and a half years suspended sentence.

Woman who was angry at a man and said “You messed with the wrong person, I’ll get you sorted out.” alleged he raped her in a city centre pub toilet.

The man was never arrested but was interviewed by gardaí during an extensive investigation. He had not been in the city that night and recovery of large amount of CCTV disproved the allegation.

Woman jailed for 3 years for making false rape claim. This is very much an outlier, the usual sentence from what I can see is a suspended sentence with no other penalty.

Joint Trinity College and London Metropolitan University study in 2009 estimates that 9% of rape claims in Ireland are false.

And two more of the most infamous cases that come to mind.

In 1997 Michael Hannon falsely accused and convicted of the rape of 10 year old Una Hardester. This was as a result of a land dispute between the two families. She recanted her testimony 10 years later. Here is Kevin Myers take on the difference between the feminist reaction to it and other cases. I think the last sentence in the article is apposite. For those that can’t bring themselves to read any article of his without having an attack of the vapours, here is the final paragraph.

Now, we can be quite certain if a woman had been so gravely wronged by the State in some matter relating to sexual crime, that the feminist sirens, media and quangos alike, would have been howling in anger, and demanding enquiries and heads. But in the aftermath of this case, nothing: the sirens remained as quiet as a mountain lake. For the victim is a man, so really, the injustice done to him really doesn't count. Not in 1997, not today, and no doubt, not in 2019 either.

Brenda Power in the Sunday Times article referencing the Michael Hannon and other cases. It's behind a paywall but I will c & p some of the most relevant bits.

A survey tracing the trajectory from complaint to conviction in rape cases turned up an unexpectedly timely statistic last week. Just a day after Michael Feichin Hannon had a 10-year-old conviction for sexual assault quashed, after his supposed victim admitted she'd made the whole thing up, the study of attrition in rape cases found we had the highest rate of false allegations of all the European countries studied.

Some 100 reported rapes in each of 11 different countries were examined. As well as having the highest rate of false complaints, at 9%, we also had one of the lowest rates of convictions for reported rapes, at just 8%, compared with 34% in Hungary. Paul O'Mahony, a criminologist in Trinity College Dublin, said attrition in sexual violence cases is a serious problem across Europe and suggested that the main obstacle to more successful convictions in this country may be "under-prosecution".

There is, of course, another possible reason why just eight of the 100 men accused in these Irish cases were convicted. Hard though it is to believe, there has to be the chance that some of the other 92 were innocent. Since the survey seems to take separate account of cases that failed for lack of evidence, or because the main witness withdrew her testimony, these are not counted as "false allegations". There's an implied presumption, in other words, that the men implicated were guilty and would have been bang to rights if only the victim had held her nerve or the forensics were a bit stronger. With some more robust "over-prosecution", then, the weaknesses of the forensic case could have been overcome and a conviction achieved solely on the word of the victim. Which is exactly what happened to Michael Feichin Hannon.

She also references the EU Daphne II project (2004 - 2008) aimed at preventing violence against women and children and protecting victims and at risk groups.

For some reason, an unusually high number of Irish women are prepared to report rapes that never happened. To find that reason we might have to look at another statistic thrown up by the EU Daphne II project, some 88% of Irish men and 84% of women in rape cases had alcohol in their system. In Portugal, just 15% of victims been drinking.

A few years ago, the sexual-assault clinic in the Rotunda Hospital reported a worrying number of young women were presenting themselves on a Monday morning with no recollection of what they'd done the previous night. They couldn't remember having sex, let alone the trauma of a rape, but they couldn't be sure. In fact, many were found not to have engaged in any sexual activity the night before. Yet the fact that they attended a "sexual assault" clinic suggests they were perfectly prepared to make a criminal allegation, if it turned out they had indeed had sex.

They were not prepared to let a little thing like the fact that they had no recollection of any crime, no attendant distress and no physical injury deter their pursuit of the belief that they had been assaulted. If the clinic hadn't been able to clear up their drunken suspicions, there's every chance they would have made an allegation against an innocent, if equally drunken, man that put him at risk of a life sentence and, at best, a tainted reputation.

I wasn't aware of this, or had forgotten it. :eek:

Hannon was found guilty, even though he had no previous convictions and there was no forensic evidence against him. His job, his good name, his family's standing in the Galway community where they'd lived for generations were all sacrificed to a lack of scepticism about the curiously precocious evidence of a 10-year-old girl.

Nobody doubts that "under prosecution" of rape, fear and intimidation of victims and forensic shortcomings have all left rapists on the loose. But "over-prosecution" flies in the face of one of the central tenets of our legal system, which is that it is better that 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man be prosecuted in zealous error. Unless, of course, political correctness decrees that this protection doesn't extend to men accused of rape.

There was also the case of Nora Wall who along with Paul (Pablo) McCabe was wrongfully convicted of rape. She was the first woman convicted of rape in Irish courts. She was released and eventually settled a claim for damages in 2016.

I know these last two cases aren't at all recent but I think it's good to have a reminder as I forgot a lot of details about those cases. Especially as they happened before this thread started.

Finally, look at these cases again with all the furore over the recent Rugby and “knickers “ cases, safe in the knowledge that Oliver Flanagan is kowtowing to the feminist lobby that wants to have anonymity for defendants taken away.

To paraphrase Brenda Powers view of one of the central tenets of our legal system. Is it better that 100 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man be prosecuted (or publicly named and shamed) in zealous error? Unless of course political correctness decrees that this protection doesn't extend to men accused of rape.

We will soon know the answer to that.

More tragic case...

https://metro.co.uk/2016/07/29/mother-of-teen-who-hanged-himself-over-false-rape-allegations-commits-suicide-6037994/amp/

Teenage boy (17) falsely accused of rape* never got over the trauma of it and committed suicide.
His mother, went into a downward spiral, and killed herself around his first anniversary. Even used the same rope.

Men are more likely to be raped than be falsely accused of rape.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-men-are-more-likely-to-be-raped-than-be-falsely-accused-of-rape

py2006 wrote: »

In prison, yes.

I don't have evidence to back this up but I firmly believe there is a HELL of a lot more false rape accusations out there and a hell of lot of innocent men in jail today and most definitely in the past.

Not just in prison. In general

Defunkd wrote: »

Feel free to start another thread and post the incidences of men raping men all you want but this thread is about false rape accusations.

I cheerfully withdraw that comment if it is considered backseat-modding by a mod.

No the thead is about who you would believe. The piont that you are more likely to know a man that has been raped than been falsely accused of rape gives a great indication of just how rare a false accusation is..... And I know you are trying to claim otherwise by linking every case of false rape throughout the world. A person reading this thread might actually think to be falsely accused of rape is a common occurence which it isn't. Extreamly rare in fact.

Defunkd wrote: »

Judge Kavanaugh, Jackson/Olding, those 2 Kerry women convicted last year and all the other recent cases that are being posted...rare indeed.

Yeah extreamly rare.

You could find 2 convictions of a false rape accusation in this jurisdiction ... is that all??? You know Ireland has 4.8 million people.