Litter Fine.

flanal23 · 09-04-2018 1:55pm #1

Today I received a fine in the post for €150 for allegedly throwing a cigarette butt out of the window of my car.
I was driving in the area stated this day and when I was stopped in traffic the car in front of me got out and took a picture of my registration I was unsure why and went to get my lights on my car looked at Incase my brake lights were not working. I now understand why the picture was taken of my car.
I do not smoke so I don’t understand why this person would make a complaint against me.
There were no other passengers in my car that could have been smoking as I do not tolerate smoking in my car.
I’ve rang and requested an appeals form however it really is a case of a strangers word agains my own.
Would I be better off paying the fine than having to go through court fees etc?

flanal23 · 09-04-2018 2:27pm

Today I received a fine in the post for €150 for allegedly throwing a cigarette butt out of the window of my car.
I was driving in the area stated this day and when I was stopped in traffic the car in front of me got out and took a picture of my registration I was unsure why and went to get my lights on my car looked at Incase my brake lights were not working. I now understand why the picture was taken of my car.
I do not smoke so I don’t understand why this person would make a complaint against me.
There were no other passengers in my car that could have been smoking as I do not tolerate smoking in my car.
I’ve rang and requested an appeals form however it really is a case of a strangers word agains my own.
Would I be better off paying the fine than having to go through court fees etc?

Walter Bishop · 09-04-2018 4:49pm

Who is the fine from? Sounds like a scam tbh.

flanal23 · 09-04-2018 4:56pm

The letter is from the Dublin City Council and looks very legitimate.

Teyla Emmagan · 09-04-2018 5:00pm

Ring them and talk to them. Ask to see the evidence

flanal23 · 09-04-2018 5:01pm

Thanks for your advice!

cgcsb · 10-04-2018 2:43pm

How have they suggested you pay the fine? Fines can't be issued that way.

w/s/p/c/ · 10-04-2018 4:07pm

Don't pay that, ask them for evidence, especially since you say you don't smoke. Sounds very dodgy.

_Brian · 10-04-2018 4:11pm

Having made a littering complaint my experience is that there will be no evidence you can be shown.

It will come down to the person who made the complaint and if they are willing to sign a statement and are willing to go to court if you push an appeal that far. It’s a big risk on your behalf if they are adamant in court the fine can be substantially increased.

I had to continually ring to push my complaint through but there was no evidence of the littering act, just my statement.

Walter Bishop · 10-04-2018 5:17pm

I wouldn't be paying that. If any random punter can just snap a picture of you then report you to the Council so you get a €150 fine, there'd be all sorts at that. Absent any evidence it's your word against theirs.

LionelNashe · 10-04-2018 7:06pm

I wouldn't ask for evidence if I was already sure that there could be none. That would be engaging in a conversation with them which may go back and forth, wasting my time. Just tell them that nobody threw a cigarette (or any other item presumably?) from your car, you won't be paying, and you don't want to hear from them again.

GerardKeating · 10-04-2018 10:18pm

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

Ring them and talk to them. Ask to see the evidence

Ask for the name and address of the person making the complaint, and state it is for your solicitors to make a defamation action again them

cgcsb · 10-04-2018 10:43pm

Walter Bishop wrote: »

I wouldn't be paying that. If any random punter can just snap a picture of you then report you to the Council so you get a €150 fine, there'd be all sorts at that. Absent any evidence it's your word against theirs.

If they had a picture of the act that'd be one thing.

Peregrinus · 11-04-2018 2:30am

flanal23 wrote: »

Today I received a fine in the post for €150 for allegedly throwing a cigarette butt out of the window of my car.
I was driving in the area stated this day and when I was stopped in traffic the car in front of me got out and took a picture of my registration I was unsure why and went to get my lights on my car looked at Incase my brake lights were not working. I now understand why the picture was taken of my car.
I do not smoke so I don’t understand why this person would make a complaint against me.
There were no other passengers in my car that could have been smoking as I do not tolerate smoking in my car.
I’ve rang and requested an appeals form however it really is a case of a strangers word agains my own.
Would I be better off paying the fine than having to go through court fees etc?

If you go to court and testify that you do not smoke, have never smoked, do not allow smoking in your car, and did not throw any cigarette butt out the window, and that the person who says you did, while undoubtedly public-spirited, must be mistaken, you should be acquitted. To be sure to be sure you could bring along a spouse or partner who will testify that as long as they have known you you have never smoked.

However it will be stressful and you will have to devote half-a-day to it, which may interfere with work. Up to you to decide whether it's worth paying €150 to avoid this.

Sam Quentin · 11-04-2018 2:44am

Truly unbelievable... That someone can take a pic of your reg, make up a smoky litter bug story, report you to litter bug man,.. Then you receive a fine....
Truly T R U L Y unbelievable....

Peregrinus · 11-04-2018 3:02am

Sam Quentin wrote: »

Truly unbelievable... That someone can take a pic of your reg, make up a smoky litter bug story, report you to litter bug man,.. Then you receive a fine....
Truly T R U L Y unbelievable....

Why is it unbelievable? Most prosecutions start with a complaint to the authorites from someone who says they witnessed a crime. How did you think it worked?

tedpan · 11-04-2018 3:08am

If you don't smoke, what was thrown out of the window?

Sam Quentin · 11-04-2018 3:12am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Why is it unbelievable? Most prosecutions start with a complaint to the authorites from someone who says they witnessed a crime. How did you think it worked?

PLEASE...
I'm not here to argue.. But don't justify or simplify the op's position.
A litter warden has obviously made a serious error here by accepting the 'story' from the complainant!? Life is just not that easy/simple, and prosecutions are not that forthcoming with such little evidence....

Peregrinus · 11-04-2018 3:28am

Sam Quentin wrote: »

PLEASE...
I'm not here to argue.. But don't justify or simplify the op's position.
A litter warden has obviously made a serious error here by accepting the 'story' from the complainant!? Life is just not that easy/simple, and prosecutions are not that forthcoming with such little evidence....

I'm not justifying it. I'm just saying that it's not in the least surprising. If the authorities aren't prepared to enforce the law when they have witnesses willing to testify to its breach, what is the point of having the law in the first place?

Condatis · 11-04-2018 9:37am

I was caught in a similar situation years ago when an employee dumped material with my name on it. I forgot about the court date and was fined.

To this day my name comes up on Google as a litterer - 15 years later - along, it must be said, with some quite notable names on the same court date.

Should you decide to pay the fine don't be surprised if your name appears in court lists and thus will be in the public domain permanently.

Billgirlylegs · 11-04-2018 9:47am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Why is it unbelievable? Most prosecutions start with a complaint to the authorites from someone who says they witnessed a crime. How did you think it worked?

If the OP did as they were accused, I am delighted that a fine was imposed.

But shouldn't the start be "we understand you are a litter bug, how do you plead".
Is the "law" for litter offences different - is it "Guilty until proven innocent" just on the say so of a witness?

Subtle · 11-04-2018 9:53am

This thread is running in two forums I think...

Peregrinus · 11-04-2018 9:56am

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

If the OP did as they were accused, I am delighted that a fine was imposed.

But shouldn't the start be "we understand you are a litter bug, how do you plead".
Is the "law" for litter offences different - is it "Guilty until proven innocent" just on the say so of a witness?

Effectively, a fixed penalty notice is a statement from the enforcement agency that "we understand you are a litter bug/parking offender/whatever. If you agree or admit to this, you can pay us X euros and we'll go away. There'll be no prosecution and no conviction. If you disagree, you can have your day in court. There may be an acquittal, but if there isn't you'll have a conviction on your record."

So, no, it's not "guilty until proven innocent". It's "you're going to be prosecuted, but if you think a conviction is likely you can avoid a prosecution by paying up now".

If you don't pay, and they take you to court, you are not presumed guilty merely because a penalty notice was issued. You are presumed innocent, and it's up to them to prove your guilt, e.g. by calling a witness who will say, yes, he saw you throw a cigarette butt out the window. You can cross-examine that witness, you can call your own witnesses, you can give evidence yourself. And at the end of the day the court will ask itself, as it always does, whether the evidence led by the prosecution establishes beyond a reasonable doubt that you committed the offence.

Wildcard7 · 11-04-2018 10:05am

Is there an increased fine for repeat offenders? If so I would definitely contest it.

GhostyMcGhost · 11-04-2018 10:12am

Condatis wrote: »

I was caught in a similar situation years ago when an employee dumped material with my name on it. I forgot about the court date and was fined.

To this day my name comes up on Google as a litterer - 15 years later - along, it must be said, with some quite notable names on the same court date.

Should you decide to pay the fine don't be surprised if your name appears in court lists and thus will be in the public domain permanently.

You have the right to be forgotten btw

lifeandtimes · 11-04-2018 10:20am

GhostyMcGhost wrote: »

You have the right to be forgotten btw

not until the 18th of may

Sam Quentin · 11-04-2018 12:25pm

Should the innocent op be allowed to take a libel against the photographer for slander?

hullaballoo · 11-04-2018 12:28pm

Libel and slander (which were different forms of defamation) were abolished by the Defamation Act 2009.

There has been discussion recently in relation to the availability of the defence of qualified privilege in relation to the reporting of suspected criminal offences.

NUTLEY BOY · 11-04-2018 12:46pm

Was there anyone else in OP's car at the time of the alleged offence who could rebut the allegation ?

I note reference to no passengers that could have been smoking. Would this have been Sweetpea in the child seat ? If so, it is more plausible yet that there was no smoking going on if there were children in the car of a firm non-smoker.

I presume that the punctilious photographer will be required to give evidence of his observation of the offence being committed. If so, I hope that he is asked if he picked up the butt to prove that what he thinks he saw was actually a cigarette. If he comes over in court as an anal retentive his credibility might be eminently challengeable.

The photograph probably has no more evidential value than establishing particulars of the vehicle as distinct from the alleged actus reus.

I assume that OP is entitled to seek discovery of the prosecution evidence if this is to proceed. So, why not demand it now from the prosecutor ?

If this happened to me I would be hopping mad. If OP pays the fine he is admitting the offence.

I was cycling down Strand Road, Sandymount, a few years ago when I was narrowly missed by a butt thrown from the passenger side window of a Garda Jeep :rolleyes:. That definitely happened. How does the witness know for sure that anything was thrown by OP never mind the nature of it ?

Grolschevik · 11-04-2018 1:19pm

flanal23 wrote: »

Today I received a fine in the post for €150 for allegedly throwing a cigarette butt out of the window of my car.
I was driving in the area stated this day and when I was stopped in traffic the car in front of me got out and took a picture of my registration I was unsure why and went to get my lights on my car looked at Incase my brake lights were not working. I now understand why the picture was taken of my car.
I do not smoke so I don’t understand why this person would make a complaint against me.
There were no other passengers in my car that could have been smoking as I do not tolerate smoking in my car.
I’ve rang and requested an appeals form however it really is a case of a strangers word agains my own.
Would I be better off paying the fine than having to go through court fees etc?

Quick questions for information.

Why would you check your brake lights if the guy got out of a car in front and took a picture of the front of your car?

And how long was the traffic stopped to allow someone to get out to take a picture?

SSr0 · 11-04-2018 1:32pm

What's to stop someone from making a false report on a person they dislike?

Pretty easy way to mess with somone, if it's just a case of a quick phone call which results in a straight €150 fine.

Litter Fine.

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