Prunus Kanzan - Just No Growth This Year - Can't Explain?

happyplants · 15-04-2021 5:03pm #1

Hi all,

I'm stumped on a Cherry Blossom I have; Prunus Kanzan.

Usually, its the best performer. Attached is pretty much this time last year and this time this year. I appreciate differences on a year on year basis, but its very strange to be this "undeveloped".

Does anyone have any ideas about anything going around on this species? Or whether they are blooming late elsewhere? I've a fair few other variants in the back, but they hit their strides pretty much as expected for the different types they are.

There's nothing obvious that I can see. A few twig tests shows green pliable wood and not brittle death. I'm lost really at this point!

Two attachments, 17 April 2020 and 15 April 2021, but I'll try to embed as well once I can size them.

Graces7 · 15-04-2021 5:12pm

happyplants wrote: »

Hi all,

I'm stumped on a Cherry Blossom I have; Prunus Kanzan.

Usually, its the best performer. Attached is pretty much this time last year and this time this year. I appreciate differences on a year on year basis, but its very strange to be this "undeveloped".

Does anyone have any ideas about anything going around on this species? Or whether they are blooming late elsewhere? I've a fair few other variants in the back, but they hit their strides pretty much as expected for the different types they are.

There's nothing obvious that I can see. A few twig tests shows green pliable wood and not brittle death. I'm lost really at this point!"

I honestly think it is the exceptionally cold weather for such a while. I have an elderberry bush by my door that is always full of leaves by now. Bare as bare can be this year. And even the old wild fuchsias that are usually fully leaved are barely budding.

See how it goes when the temp rises? Everything is way behind here. The cattle are still inside and the grass is not growing yet. A long winter.

Or maybe others have similar experiences or alternative ideas?

macraignil · 15-04-2021 5:22pm

I have noticed a variety of different trees and shrubs have been slower getting started this spring in my own garden. Some are proceeding close to their normal time frame but others are only starting to get going now when they would already have started regrowing in other years. I just think it is down to it being a colder spring than in other years and some plants being more sensitive to this than others. I have a hedelfinger eating cherry that is only just about to open its first flower and a couple of Cercis species that have still got bare branches when they would have started to bloom in other years.

Reckless Abandonment · 15-04-2021 5:35pm

Is it pushing any buds yet?

happyplants · 15-04-2021 5:47pm

First, thanks for the replies. Very helpful. I am hoping it is just down to the cold for this particular tree. I was a bit thrown off that scent by all the other cherry varieties doing so well out my back, and other things flourishing nearby but I don't think that's a great guide!

On the buds, I had thought that yes, it had, but what's there really isn't any change on what was there in February. I'll attach a picture from close up as representative but it doesn't appear super lively to me. I had expected, at least, something slightly more vigorous looking in terms of buds by this point.

Reckless Abandonment · 15-04-2021 6:23pm

Looks like its pushing new buds alright. Id say its just been slow. Its a lot slower than normal but give it a few weeks. And hopefully you'll be putting up pics of it in full bloom

Jim_Hodge · 15-04-2021 6:30pm

It may well come yet but I'd rule out the weather, as it was far from exceptionally cold and all other spring flowering trees are on time and even a little early this year. The buds forming may be leaf buds as opposed to flowers. Sometimes a tree will not flower in a year after an extra strong flowering. The flower buds may have been predated. Have there been bullfinches about?

I take it there was no ground disturbance around the tree or any signs of damage to the trunk. Scrape the bark of some smaller branches with a thumbnail and see is it fresh underneath or dry lifeless.

macraignil · 15-04-2021 6:50pm

Jim_Hodge wrote: »

It may well come yet but I'd rule out the weather, as it was far from exceptionally cold and all other spring flowering trees are on time and even a little early this year. The buds forming may be leaf buds as opposed to flowers. Sometimes a tree will not flower in a year after an extra strong flowering. The flower buds may have been predated. Have there been bullfinches about?

I take it there was no ground disturbance around the tree or any signs of damage to the trunk. Scrape the bark of some smaller branches with a thumbnail and see is it fresh underneath or dry lifeless.

That is not true where I am living anyway. Bullfinches could be a factor but I have trees sprouting now that were doing so earlier in other years.

The opening poster already said they had tested some of the twigs and found they were green and pliable so I don't understand what extra information they would get from scraping more bark.

Jim_Hodge · 15-04-2021 7:30pm

macraignil wrote: »

That is not true where I am living anyway. Bullfinches could be a factor but I have trees sprouting now that were doing so earlier in other years.

The opening poster already said they had tested some of the twigs and found they were green and pliable so I don't understand what extra information they would get from scraping more bark.

My deepest apologies. Good luck.

:mad:

Ms2011 · 15-04-2021 9:36pm

I have this same tree in my garden, it's leaves are semi open and it has flowers some open and some still to open.

happyplants · 15-04-2021 10:00pm

There's one about 250m down the road, in full bloom. Its very odd. There's nothing particularly obvious here.

happyplants · 15-04-2021 10:02pm

Jim_Hodge wrote: »

It may well come yet but I'd rule out the weather, as it was far from exceptionally cold and all other spring flowering trees are on time and even a little early this year. The buds forming may be leaf buds as opposed to flowers. Sometimes a tree will not flower in a year after an extra strong flowering. The flower buds may have been predated. Have there been bullfinches about?

I take it there was no ground disturbance around the tree or any signs of damage to the trunk. Scrape the bark of some smaller branches with a thumbnail and see is it fresh underneath or dry lifeless.

Thanks for this.

1. A dormant year could be it for reasons. Last year wasn't particularly strong compared to others though.

2. No bullfinches.

3. I don't know what predated flower buds are! Do you mean pre-dated as in before a particular date, or predated as in a cut off a predator?

4. No ground disturbance. There's nothing particularly wrong with the bark or underflesh.

Graces7 · 16-04-2021 6:51am

Wait and see time.

The elderberry I mentioned here has burst into song with the few sunny days this week.

I hope your tree does the same.

happyplants · 16-04-2021 10:03am

I think so, just as there was some discussion above, I may as well complete things with a close of a broken off branch and the buds.

Obviously, my morning walk to school is now just an exercise in looking at every other blooming Kanzan in the area!

If only there was some sort of profession existed that was available to look at these kind of things for the reward of payment.

macraignil · 16-04-2021 10:53am

happyplants wrote: »

I think so, just as there was some discussion above, I may as well complete things with a close of a broken off branch and the buds.

Obviously, my morning walk to school is now just an exercise in looking at every other blooming Kanzan in the area!

If only there was some sort of profession existed that was available to look at these kind of things for the reward of payment.

As someone with a BSc in Plant Science and post graduate diplomas in education and food production from plants and over three decades of gardening I can tell you the twig has some green in it that indicates it is still alive. Dormant trees are variable in the extent of the time they stay dormant for. In nature some level of variability insures that something survives even if it means starting the reproductive cycle later than some others from the same species. I also have a young tree that has sprouted leaves to be burnt off by frost so it makes sense for plants to hesitate becoming active when they can get frost damage to tender new growth. I had very few apples last year because we got a hard frost in May that killed off the young fruit and flowers. It's likely that your tree is just protecting itself from damage from the frosts that are continuing in places. It might just be a particularly sensitive tree or it might be in a frost pocket (an area where cold air accumulates and leads to a micro-climate more conducive to frost) or there may be some other factor not obvious in the pictures. You could call a tree surgeon or an arboriculturist for a professional opinion if you want to pay some one to assess your tree.

happyplants · 16-04-2021 2:53pm

macraignil wrote: »

You could call a tree surgeon or an arboriculturist for a professional opinion if you want to pay some one to assess your tree.

Thanks for your help, its very much appreciated.

However, just on this, no, unfortunately, you really can't and its really frustrating.

It seems just to be the way things are right now. A cautious guess would be 4-5 calls / messages / emails to business addresses unreturned. 2 returned calls but available 3-4 months hence due to general demand and actually two appointments arranged where the guy just didn't turn up and then just ghosted calls / texts. Like, that was actually two mornings I'd given up to wait for an arranged (and to be paid for) assessment which just didn't happen. Obviously, I won't name firms etc.

So, sorry for the sarcasm by which I was attempting to communicate that I've been trying to contact just that expert and its not been possible, no matter what.

I absolutely want to pay someone to assess it, and I've been trying my level best to get that done but its absolutely impossible without some sort of pre-existing contact or "in" with someone. This, from what I can see, seems to be a general experience across the Ireland, England the USA etc when it comes trades / professional work like this. There is right now just so much pent up money being splashed out people can ignore anything "little". I suppose its understandable, but on the other hand...

I've been trying generally also to engage someone on a maintenance contract and its largely impossible and without being a dick about it, money isn't an issue its literally trying to get someone to take it.

macraignil · 16-04-2021 4:06pm

happyplants wrote: »

Thanks for your help, its very much appreciated.

However, just on this, no, unfortunately, you really can't and its really frustrating.

It seems just to be the way things are right now. A cautious guess would be 4-5 calls / messages / emails to business addresses unreturned. 2 returned calls but available 3-4 months hence due to general demand and actually two appointments arranged where the guy just didn't turn up and then just ghosted calls / texts. Like, that was actually two mornings I'd given up to wait for an arranged (and to be paid for) assessment which just didn't happen. Obviously, I won't name firms etc.

So, sorry for the sarcasm by which I was attempting to communicate that I've been trying to contact just that expert and its not been possible, no matter what.

I absolutely want to pay someone to assess it, and I've been trying my level best to get that done but its absolutely impossible without some sort of pre-existing contact or "in" with someone. This, from what I can see, seems to be a general experience across the Ireland, England the USA etc when it comes trades / professional work like this. There is right now just so much pent up money being splashed out people can ignore anything "little". I suppose its understandable, but on the other hand...

I've been trying generally also to engage someone on a maintenance contract and its largely impossible and without being a dick about it, money isn't an issue its literally trying to get someone to take it.

Maybe if you post where you are in the country someone may be able to send you a recommendation for a tree surgeon or arboriculturist local to your tree and willing to look at it. You are probably right about those working in the area cherry picking the more profitable jobs and this may be understandable when the costs in the business have gone up a lot in recent years. The only tree surgeon I know has retired last year due to the rising cost of insurance and the increased demands from the insurance company for certification and proof of standards in the equipment they use.

It sounds very much to me like its just a case of give the tree some more time to become active this year and I'm guessing the people you have tried to get to assess the tree don't want to call out and ask for a lot of money just to say you will have to wait for the tree to reveal what is going on with it. Variability in nature is very common but there is a chance there could be an issue with your tree's health that will be more obvious in a couple of months when it has either started to grow well again or continues to look unwell. As I have mentioned already I have a few trees which are still dormant but I don't think this is an indication of poor health in these trees and is just a reaction to a relatively cool spring.

joebloggs32 · 16-04-2021 4:15pm

happyplants wrote: »

Hi all,

I'm stumped on a Cherry Blossom I have; Prunus Kanzan.

Usually, its the best performer. Attached is pretty much this time last year and this time this year. I appreciate differences on a year on year basis, but its very strange to be this "undeveloped".

Does anyone have any ideas about anything going around on this species? Or whether they are blooming late elsewhere? I've a fair few other variants in the back, but they hit their strides pretty much as expected for the different types they are.

There's nothing obvious that I can see. A few twig tests shows green pliable wood and not brittle death. I'm lost really at this point!

Two attachments, 17 April 2020 and 15 April 2021, but I'll try to embed as well once I can size them.

Im in the same boat as you.

Last spring it flowered as normal along with an apple tree in the garden.

However early in the summer the leaves started turning brown anf for the first time ever the apple tree produced no apples. I put it down to the drought in May with cold nights thrown in.

This year no sign of any buds yet. Green leaves appearing now on the apple tree however.

Graces7 · 17-04-2021 9:00am

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Im in the same boat as you.

Last spring it flowered as normal along with an apple tree in the garden.

However early in the summer the leaves started turning brown anf for the first time ever the apple tree produced no apples. I put it down to the drought in May with cold nights thrown in.

This year no sign of any buds yet. Green leaves appearing now on the apple tree however.

it will also vary from area to area. Exposed coastal will get more damaging winds and probably lower temps, and of course plants react to weather conditions.
Some more than others

I lived on a very exposed Orkney Island before Ireland and unless you had eg a greenhouse, you were limited re growing. And some years almost everything got wind scorched

standardg60 · 17-04-2021 11:05pm

For me the most obvious difference between the two pics in the original post is the absence of the supports and tie, and there appears to be damage to the trunk.

macraignil · 17-04-2021 11:15pm

standardg60 wrote: »

For me the most obvious difference between the two pics in the original post is the absence of the supports and tie, and there appears to be damage to the trunk.

Looks to be a mark on the trunk alright just where the tree was tied to the support. I hope the tie that was fixing the tree to the support wasn't too tight and strangled it.

standardg60 · 17-04-2021 11:32pm

macraignil wrote: »

Looks to be a mark on the trunk alright just where the tree was tied to the support. I hope the tie that was fixing the tree to the support wasn't too tight and strangled it.

The OP hasn't explained how/when/why it was removed, the damage looks significant to me.
I've lost count of the amount of trees i've released from the captivity of years long attached ties!

macraignil · 17-04-2021 11:54pm

standardg60 wrote: »

The OP hasn't explained how/when/why it was removed, the damage looks significant to me.
I've lost count of the amount of trees i've released from the captivity of years long attached ties!

Had to do this with a good number of young trees myself as well. Its amazing how so much damage can be done to plants by something tied around them in the wrong place for too long. Have three pittosporums that have a single main stem that I mistakenly left the labels on when I planted them a few years back. One was blown over a bit the winter just gone and I found the label had actually made some significant damage to the main stem. I checked the other two and they all had the same issue. The labels were obscured by the low lying branches and a couple were actually after getting buried in mulch so were completely out of view but still causing damage. I would have guessed these labels being the type that can be easily detached would have opened by themselves if under pressure but that was not the case here and I'm lucky to have found the issue before it caused more damage.

CiaranTheGreat · 18-04-2021 6:47am

Could it be a water issue? This has been a very dry spring. A couple of heavy showers here and there but very little penetrating showers that really soak the ground and not just the surface. Put a hose on the tree for an hour and let the root zone properly soak. Is the tree on a pavement? There could be a very small planting hole due to pipes or kerbing etc which your tree has exhausted.

18-04-2021 11:34am

macraignil wrote: »

Had to do this with a good number of young trees myself as well. Its amazing how so much damage can be done to plants by something tied around them in the wrong place for too long. Have three pittosporums that have a single main stem that I mistakenly left the labels on when I planted them a few years back. One was blown over a bit the winter just gone and I found the label had actually made some significant damage to the main stem. I checked the other two and they all had the same issue. The labels were obscured by the low lying branches and a couple were actually after getting buried in mulch so were completely out of view but still causing damage. I would have guessed these labels being the type that can be easily detached would have opened by themselves if under pressure but that was not the case here and I'm lucky to have found the issue before it caused more damage.

How long would you recommend a tie be left on a tree, for example, a tree similar in size to the OP's? Two years, three years?

macraignil · 18-04-2021 11:59am

Deleted User wrote: »

How long would you recommend a tie be left on a tree, for example, a tree similar in size to the OP's? Two years, three years?

It depends on how exposed the tree is to strong winds but the tie should be inspected regularly to make sure it is not cutting into the bark because it has become too tight. A properly fitting tie with enough space around the bark for the tree to continue to grow should work for years and they can be loosened to fit a growing tree. The picture in the opening post shows a tie in a strange arrangement to me but it is a bit far away in the picture to see how much space has been allowed for the tree to grow. I tend now to use old nylon tights as I can get them for free and they are even easier for the tree to stretch so they continue to fit the job. I still would remove these after a couple of years when I think the tree looks sturdy enough. The ones in the video clip linked above have the supports all removed this year with one having them removed last year as the tree was having one of the branches rub off the stake which was causing some damage that I did not want to continue. The one in the clip with a purpose made tree tie could actually do with a better one to give more of a space to the stake but it worked out OK anyway.

Happy gardening.

happyplants · 18-04-2021 5:52pm

standardg60 wrote: »

The OP hasn't explained how/when/why it was removed, the damage looks significant to me.
I've lost count of the amount of trees i've released from the captivity of years long attached ties!

Edited post after I went and took pics:

Thanks for this. The tie, interesting...

The tie was left on for a while mainly because of the crazy wind in this particular area and proximity to a main street / cars and I wasn't 100% happy it was solidly "in", but, as you point out at a point maybe around early March the wife thought it had got too tight and we thought we could see the rubber tie was, in fact, constricting things into the bark on one side. Now, this wasn't particularly new, but it was happening. In the more recent pic the supports are gone because I had a guy to re-stake something else nearby (which hasn't taken and was loose - another story about a landscaper planting other trees too deep it seems) and he thought this looked established enough not to bother re-attaching the tie. Didn't get a peep about damage etc, but I suppose it was a few weeks ago so before you'd expect a bloom.

After I read this I had that feeling of "oh christ, yes, that's it" and expected to go out and see a full girdling.

However, when I went out and looked (and attached are pics to give a view of all 360 degrees) it wasn't as bad as I thought it might be.

The dark stain is largely the rubber and the bark is pretty if not entirely or largely entact. As I say, from my window looking down I certainly expected to go down and see a full girdle and even looking out now as I type this, you think there is a fully 360 degree "cut in", but its not really like that and, as I say, the dark is a tad misleading, but sure I'm no expert!

Like, there's no indentation, so rubbing your finger up and down (if you closed your eyes) you wouldn't really feel anything. As I say, I'd been expecting when I read this post to go out and see a 5mm indent the whole way around but no.

If this is the issue I'll be, lets just say, upset with myself, as we would have just stood by as it happened and might then have just killed off 5 years off good progress.

If it is the issue, I'd love to understand the biology. I would have thought I'd see lots more signs of death etc but maybe this "refusal to leaf / bloom" is the first stage in response to this?

View 1 (Left to Right and Angled)

View 2 (Behind)

View 3 (Right to Left and Angled)

happyplants · 18-04-2021 6:24pm

CiaranTheGreat wrote: »

Could it be a water issue? This has been a very dry spring. A couple of heavy showers here and there but very little penetrating showers that really soak the ground and not just the surface. Put a hose on the tree for an hour and let the root zone properly soak. Is the tree on a pavement? There could be a very small planting hole due to pipes or kerbing etc which your tree has exhausted.

Its possible, but the ones beside it are ok and growth around the base and behind is as normal. Soil hasn't dried out as I check it a bit and do water etc if needed and this is one in about 20 trees of mine that has just "stopped" in the same area getting largely the same rainfall. This particular area gets more wind.

Its in a very unconstrained location in terms of obstruction, its not on a pavement, but in an extended and dug out bed specifically done for this and two friends. I do have issues with how it was done, but this one had flourished as I say every year and its really the differential that has be confused!

standardg60 · 18-04-2021 7:10pm

Certainly not a watering issue if it's there five years.
It was definitely constricted by the tie though, do you see how the trunk has bulged slightly below where the tie was?
The basic biology is that all transfer of water, nutrients etc. occurs through the cambium layer which is located just under the bark, the rest of the inner wood is essentially dead and only contributes to supporting the tree.

I think you've done all you can at this stage and a wait and see approach would be my advice. I was always told to never give up on a plant until the longest day of the year has passed without any growth. There is still green in the pic of the branch you posted so hopefully growth has just been delayed.

happyplants · 18-04-2021 8:30pm

Well, thank you to everyone for all the replies, assistance and hope. I really am kicking myself if we let this band stay on just this one season too many. Oh well. It won't be repeated. Thanks again.

peter4918 · 18-04-2021 9:11pm

The Prunus Kanzan I have hasn’t flowered for the last two years and at the end of the summer last year my wife was on to me to remove it and replace it with something else as we thought it was dead. Didn’t get around to that and instead put out a couple of feeds of 18-6-12 fertiliser on it. Low and behold it bloomed lovely this year so don t know if it was the fertiliser or what but it’s back from the dead either way!

Prunus Kanzan - Just No Growth This Year - Can't Explain?

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