Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

alaimacerc · 28-08-2018 11:20am

seamus wrote: »

But will she find any solicitor willing to assist her file a dead duck appeal when they're unlikely to get paid?

There's plenty of people rattling around -- and rattling rosaries -- with a law degree. Obviously you might see a fairly steep drop-off in quality if they're only doing it to further their personal dogmatic agenda, and not to get paid. But judging by the poor arguments made in this case, we may be there already.

Loafing Oaf · 28-08-2018 3:26pm

alaimacerc wrote: »

There's plenty of people rattling around -- and rattling rosaries -- with a law degree. Obviously you might see a fairly steep drop-off in quality if they're only doing it to further their personal dogmatic agenda, and not to get paid. But judging by the poor arguments made in this case, we may be there already.

Let me introduce Ms Jordan's representative:

Tbh I don't see much reason to question the competence of Ms Jordan's counsel, but I couldn't resist quoting one of The Simpsons' greatest moments...

aloyisious · 28-08-2018 7:39pm

I'm not sure who represented Joanna in her appeal against Judge Kelly's HC ruling or who she will be represented by if she does succeed in getting to the SC. In her HC case she was represented by Killian McMorrow BL.

Excerpt from link on her High Court case before Judge Kelly: Killian McMorrow BL, for Ms Jordan, said he had no instructions beyond today and to seek Ms Jordan’s costs against the State.
He said her application had raised genuine issues about the system of voter registration and had contributed to restoring social cohesion after the “most divisive” referendum in the State’s history.
A significant number of people with deep religious convictions were “genuinely shocked, distressed and crestfallen” at the outcome of the referendum following a “polarising” and sometimes “bitter” campaign which set younger people against older people, he said.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/failed-abortion-referendum-challenger-says-she-will-appeal-high-court-refusal-857358.html

I was wondering if Joanna would run out of judges free of prior involvement with her actions against this referendum. It seems none of them were involved in it. I don't think she might take the risk of claiming bias from any of them who may have heard her previous referendum case in one court or another some years ago.

Judges of the Supreme Court
The Hon. Mr. Justice Frank Clarke, Chief Justice
The Hon. Mr. Justice Donal O'Donnell
The Hon. Mr. Justice Liam McKechnie
The Hon. Mr. Justice John Mac Menamin
The Hon. Ms. Justice Elizabeth Dunne
The Hon. Mr. Justice Peter Charleton
The Hon. Ms. Justice Iseult O'Malley
The Hon. Ms. Justice Mary Finlay Geoghegan
vacancy x 2

Hotblack Desiato · 28-08-2018 10:36pm

aloyisious wrote: »

He said her application had raised genuine issues about the system of voter registration and had contributed to restoring social cohesion after the “most divisive” referendum in the State’s history.

Unbelieveable - trying to invalidate an overwhelming result on entirely spurious grounds is "restoring social cohesion" :rolleyes:

A significant number of people with deep religious convictions were “genuinely shocked, distressed and crestfallen” at the outcome of the referendum following a “polarising” and sometimes “bitter” campaign which set younger people against older people, he said.

Well it's a fûcking pity about them and their religious convictions no longer being able to dictate to everyone else, isn't it?

Also, the young against old narrative is a crock. There was substantial support for repeal across every age group. The only age group to oppose repeal was 65+, but even there there was substantial support for repeal.

lazygal · 29-08-2018 4:45pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Also, the young against old narrative is a crock. There was substantial support for repeal across every age group. The only age group to oppose repeal was 65+, but even there there was substantial support for repeal.

I found with myself and my husband we got a bit closer to our parents (all but one aged 65+) during the lead up to and the referendum campaign. I have been pregnant during the whole things, with a possible fatal abnormality which thankfully turned out to be a false alarm. We had many chats with our families about how the eighth amendment was affecting us as a couple with a wanted pregnancy, how it affected maternity care and miscarriage management (something none of them even considered as like many people, I suspect, they thought the eighth was solely about banning abortions here in Ireland) and why we were trying to explain why voting yes was good for all pregnant people. A lot of hidden things came out, myths were challenged, stories were told for the first time and they all voted yes without hesitation. We can't be the only couple who this happened to this year all because of the referendum.

smacl · 29-08-2018 4:53pm

lazygal wrote: »

We can't be the only couple who this happened to this year all because of the referendum.

My daughter (then 14) went to some lengths to explain the repeal argument to her Grandmother (91) who ended up voting to repeal. I'd suspect this wasn't unusual.

Igotadose · 29-08-2018 5:15pm

lazygal wrote: »

A lot of hidden things came out, myths were challenged, stories were told for the first time and they all voted yes without hesitation. .

I campaigned for repeal, and the eye-opening thing was the older (50's-60's) women we talked with who had nothing but horror stories about otherwise successful pregnancies, chiefly around the awful misogynistic care provided by the gynaecologists back in the day. It's the anecdotes, things like 'in her shoes,' and other sites that caused the repeal to be such a landslide.

One friend told us that when she went into labor with her first child back in the 80s', her gynaecologist came into the OR without scrubbing - he'd clearly been mowing his lawn because he still had grass stains on jersey. He rushed through the delivery, using forceps that required her to have multiple surgeries afterwards. And this was 'the best' gyno in the area, who fortunately has since retired and died.

Coming from the US, I know women use their obgyn's for their life-long family physicians, women learn to like them and trust them. When I mentioned this to the friend, she laughed and looked at me like I'd sprouted another head. This is why the eighth finally being gone, will change attitudes. It's not just about abortion.

....... · 30-08-2018 10:48am

Igotadose wrote: »

It's not just about abortion.

It was never just about abortion but the pro-lifers always just made it ONLY about abortion so they could push a false narrative that continued to endanger the lives and health of Irish women.

Id didnt suit them AT ALL to talk about wanted pregnancies, hence the unbelievable push back about Savita's death and its cause, literally arguing it down to a point where all humanity was lost and a different meaning was being imposed on commonplace words just so they could insist that it wasnt related to the 8th.

lazygal · 30-08-2018 11:08am

....... wrote: »

It was never just about abortion but the pro-lifers always just made it ONLY about abortion so they could push a false narrative that continued to endanger the lives and health of Irish women.

Id didnt suit them AT ALL to talk about wanted pregnancies, hence the unbelievable push back about Savita's death and its cause, literally arguing it down to a point where all humanity was lost and a different meaning was being imposed on commonplace words just so they could insist that it wasnt related to the 8th.

I was told by a prolife person handing out leaflets that abortion was available for rape and fatal abnormalities, and that the eighth actually provided for all the hard cases so we didn't need to change it. Blatant outright lies. I heard no such lies from anyone on the prorepeal side I spoke to or saw in the media. It was infuriating that these sorts of lies weren't challenged. The eighth amendment affects every single pregnancy in Ireland, no matter what your circumstances, women have been taken to court for refusing interventions at the very end of pregnancy or have been told their miscarriages won't be medically managed because of it.

volchitsa · 30-08-2018 1:41pm

lazygal wrote: »

I was told by a prolife person handing out leaflets that abortion was available for rape and fatal abnormalities, and that the eighth actually provided for all the hard cases so we didn't need to change it. Blatant outright lies. I heard no such lies from anyone on the prorepeal side I spoke to or saw in the media. It was infuriating that these sorts of lies weren't challenged. The eighth amendment affects every single pregnancy in Ireland, no matter what your circumstances, women have been taken to court for refusing interventions at the very end of pregnancy or have been told their miscarriages won't be medically managed because of it.

Reading this brought me straight back to the referendum campaign, but then I just got such a feeling of relief that it's all over and that people weren't taken in by those anti choice lies.

lazygal · 30-08-2018 2:12pm

The relief when it passed so comprehensively.

volchitsa · 30-08-2018 2:28pm

Definitely.

Seriously, I got a moment of nearly hyperventilation at the thought that we could be still going through all that. That's what I meant by the relief when I was able to say to myself, it's over, we did it.

Just a couple of stupid idiots and their completely groundless court appeal. I really feel we're just humouring them though. Because the result was so overwhelming.

lazygal · 30-08-2018 2:32pm

It makes legislation unavoidable too. A decisive mandate has been given.

seamus · 30-08-2018 2:33pm

Igotadose wrote: »

It's the anecdotes, things like 'in her shoes,' and other sites that caused the repeal to be such a landslide.

I think this really was it. You often hear people talk about building or running a "grassroots" campaign. But by definition, a grassroots campaign is one that is not run or built.

It is people on the ground, completely without alliance to any organisation, taking their time to talk to their friends and their families and to do their part. A grassroots campaign happens when people get so energised about a topic that they - en masse - will take it upon themselves to campaign independently.

This referendum was the best example of a "grassroots" campaign I've ever seen. And I agree that it was a landslide because for the first time in the history of this state, people talked about reproduction.
They talked about pregnancy, they talked about childbirth. They spoke frankly about it, without any blushing overtones of sin or guilt, and with the raw hurt that was created by outdated and often cruel maternity practices.
And when the older people saw the younger people were not afraid to talk about it, they realised that they too need not be afraid. And they talked about it.

It was revealed to my wife last night that her paternal grandfather had a twin brother. Died shortly after birth. She'd gone her whole life so far not knowing this. Her own father said that even he didn't find out until he was in his teens.
"It just wasn't talked about" apparently. Childbirth was the equivalent of taking a sh1t. You go in, you close the door, you come out, the job is done. Nobody needs to know what happened in there, it's disgusting to talk about it, just pretend it doesn't happen and move on.

You can see how such a "keep schtum" attitude to childbirth could lead to such long-lasting anti-abortion laws. There were referendum campaigns on a topic that nobody was really allowed to talk truthfully about. So of course those who spoke in lies and false information won the day.

When people finally felt that it was time to break the taboo, the walls came crashing down.

aloyisious · 30-08-2018 9:47pm

I thought the national debate on the issue of abortion was done and dusted until I [just now] saw the Renua Ireland Ad on F/Book. I though maybe the August 23 date was from another year so I googled Renua Ireland - pillar 4 Pro Life and found it is from this month and year. Well, I was wrong. The party is alive as well. I deleted the link I posted because cos it opened onto my F/Book page. Just google Renua Ireland - pillar 4 Pro Life yourself.

ohnonotgmail · 30-08-2018 10:35pm

aloyisious wrote: »

I thought the national debate on the issue of abortion was done and dusted until I [just now] saw the Renua Ireland Ad on F/Book. I though maybe the August 23 date was from another year so I googled Renua Ireland - pillar 4 Pro Life and found it is from this month and year. Well, I was wrong. The party is alive as well. I deleted the link I posted because cos it opened onto my F/Book page. Just google Renua Ireland - pillar 4 Pro Life yourself.

should i save some time and gouge my eyes out now?

Hotblack Desiato · 31-08-2018 12:50am

Their twitter feed is pretty mental.

aloyisious · 01-09-2018 10:54pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Their twitter feed is pretty mental.

I imagine that they view anyone with an alternative view to theirs as being lapsed believers.

Turtwig · 02-09-2018 2:17am

aloyisious wrote: »

Just google Renua Ireland - pillar 4 Pro Life yourself.

Anyone who intends on doing this use incognito mode. Last thing you want is is pro life adds popping up everywhere

alaimacerc · 02-09-2018 12:05pm

Turtwig wrote: »

Anyone who intends on doing this use incognito mode. Last thing you want is is pro life adds popping up everywhere

Then again, anyone who hangs around the boards discussion boards is probably into a little bit of recreation shouting.

In policy terms, it's bizarre. Renua were a dead duck, having tried to tack from being one-issue splitters to breathtakingly right-wing on everything else, and plausibly deniable on abortion. And been wiped out for their trouble. Abortion's now been settled, so why go back to it?

To hoover up the disgruntled rosary-rattling vote, that's why. Don't have to have any prospect of changing anything; just need to try to haul in the predominant chunk of a quota.

end of the road · 02-09-2018 2:12pm

alaimacerc wrote: »

Then again, anyone who hangs around the boards discussion boards is probably into a little bit of recreation shouting.

In policy terms, it's bizarre. Renua were a dead duck, having tried to tack from being one-issue splitters to breathtakingly right-wing on everything else, and plausibly deniable on abortion. And been wiped out for their trouble. Abortion's now been settled, so why go back to it?

To hoover up the disgruntled rosary-rattling vote, that's why. Don't have to have any prospect of changing anything; just need to try to haul in the predominant chunk of a quota.

as we know, it isn't just catholics or religious in general, who have an issue with abortion, either full stop or AOD. even then, many people who have an issue with abortion in whichever form, would likely not vote for renua as their other policies may not represent them.

Cabaal · 02-09-2018 3:32pm

end of the road wrote: »

as we know, it isn't just catholics or religious in general, who have an issue with abortion, either full stop or AOD. even then, many people who have an issue with abortion in whichever form, would likely not vote for renua as their other policies may not represent them.

To be fair, their website is pretty thin on policy and even thiner on policy details about how they'd pull of anything they state is a piller.

The party is effectively meaningless, they are down to renting a office in a community centre. they are registered to:

Saint Joseph’s Community Centre,
Frankford,
Kilcormac,
Co. Offaly

http://www.kilcormac.com/services/kda/st-josephs-community-centre/

end of the road · 02-09-2018 3:49pm

Cabaal wrote: »

To be fair, their website is pretty thin on policy and even thiner on policy details about how they'd pull of anything they state is a piller.

The party is effectively meaningless, they are down to renting a office in a community centre. they are registered to:

Saint Joseph’s Community Centre,
Frankford,
Kilcormac,
Co. Offaly

http://www.kilcormac.com/services/kda/st-josephs-community-centre/

that's some good news at least.

aloyisious · 02-09-2018 9:20pm

end of the road wrote: »

as we know, it isn't just catholics or religious in general, who have an issue with abortion, either full stop or AOD. even then, many people who have an issue with abortion in whichever form, would likely not vote for renua as their other policies may not represent them.

We've a presidential election in Nov so the Renua F/B posts may be an effort to get a renewal of interest in it as a "party", riding on the back of the election. It'll be nice to know if any of the candidates might be linked to it in any way.

robindch · 02-09-2018 11:41pm

Cabaal wrote: »

[...] how they'd pull of anything

Quite an image right there...

Loafing Oaf · 02-09-2018 11:48pm

Cabaal wrote: »

To be fair, their website is pretty thin on policy and even thiner on policy details about how they'd pull of anything they state is a piller.

The party is effectively meaningless, they are down to renting a office in a community centre.

Sounds a bit

latest?cb=20130728225847

loobylou · 04-09-2018 1:16pm

During the last election campaign I had a call at the door from a canvasser for the Renua candidate. I politely told him that I most certainly would not be voting for his colleague.
He enquired why and I explained I had three daughters and was pro-choice.
I kid you not but his response was, “but candidate A was a very nice guy and I would really like him if I ever met him”.

Hotblack Desiato · 04-09-2018 1:22pm

Anyone remember the Sky News interview a couple of days before the 8th vote with Colm O'Gorman and a, to be quite frank, embarrassingly and utterly nuts No campaigner?

Well... turned out she thinks she's presidential material!!! And Sarah Louise Mulligan even has it on her own Youtube channel...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tja3CkGqoYg

Talk about cringeworthy!

Cabaal · 04-09-2018 2:35pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Anyone remember the Sky News interview a couple of days before the 8th vote with Colm O'Gorman and a, to be quite frank, embarrassingly and utterly nuts No campaigner?

Well... turned out she thinks she's presidential material!!! And Sarah Louise Mulligan even has it on her own Youtube channel...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tja3CkGqoYg

Talk about cringeworthy!

We'll see Donald Trump be president of Ireland before she will lol

That's a train wreck of an interview, she's well out of her depth when debating with Colm

....... · 04-09-2018 3:20pm

Cabaal wrote: »

That's a train wreck of an interview, she's well out of her depth when debating

FYP

robindch · 04-09-2018 4:25pm

Ye gods, that lady is out of her depth in saucer.

Thought that van at 10:45 was going to reverse over her too.

:rolleyes:

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tja3CkGqoYg

seamus · 04-09-2018 4:25pm

Properly on-topic, although it was indicated that Ms. Jordan would file an appeal, I see no reportage of same.

Is it actually possible she gave up?

Under His Eye · 04-09-2018 4:35pm

Need to wait 21 days to see if an appeal is lodged.

Hotblack Desiato · 04-09-2018 4:57pm

It was reported at the time it had to be lodged by last Friday.

aloyisious · 04-09-2018 5:43pm

Under His Eye wrote: »

Need to wait 21 days to see if an appeal is lodged.

Then it seems Ms Jordan may have only 12 calendar days left [from midnight tonight] to lodge an appeal if the limit is 21 days and its clock started ticking on Mon the 27th Aug, the day of judgement.

However, the Appeal Court put a stay on its decision until Friday the 31st Aug which would imply a deadline for something to be done to further delay the judgement. I got the impression that by then either Ms Jordan or her legal people were obliged to inform the court service by Friday 31st Aug of her Yes or No intent and the calendar clock might not have started ticking until end of court business that day.

Irish Times, 27th August online edition - After dismissing the appeal the court placed a stay on its decision pending an appeal to the Supreme Court until Friday 31st. It is understood Ms Jordan intends appealing the court’s decision against her lost appeal.

Edit. It's actually amazing that only 9 days have passed since judgement as it seems longer with the way events around the world are being reported on the world timescale.

aloyisious · 04-09-2018 8:51pm

Harking back to my mention of Renua Ireland, the party is running a candidate [Neil O'Mahony] in the east Galway local elections on pillar 5 [the nation state and the constitution] of the party's 6 pillars. I think we better hurry up and get the constitution fixed before they get into power again.

seamus · 07-09-2018 3:03pm

https://twitter.com/JJ5000/status/1038044687498653696?s=19

She has since deleted the Tweet, but people I trust on Twitter know that it's her account, so it looks like she's been formally denied leave for appeal, and that's it, it's over.

Official confirmation won't come through till next week probably.

donspeekinglesh · 07-09-2018 3:59pm

The Irish Times are reporting it too: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/supreme-court/supreme-court-clears-way-for-abortion-law-1.3621863

Hotblack Desiato · 07-09-2018 4:31pm

Today is the 35th anniversary of the vote to introduce the 8th amendment.

This feels like closure at long last.

Under His Eye · 08-09-2018 7:07pm

When is El Presidente signing the bill?

ohnonotgmail · 08-09-2018 8:00pm

Under His Eye wrote: »

When is El Presidente signing the bill?

It has to go through the dail first

lazygal · 08-09-2018 8:07pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It has to go through the dail first

He has to sign the referendum Bill first. Then the abortion Bill debates can start.

mrkiscool2 · 08-09-2018 8:08pm

Under His Eye wrote: »

When is El Presidente signing the bill?

Sometime during the week. Will be an absolute honor for him, I'm sure. Has been fighting against it for a long time before he became President.

Igotadose · 09-09-2018 8:18am

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

Sometime during the week. Will be an absolute honor for him, I'm sure. Has been fighting against it for a long time before he became President.

Is this typically televised? Would like to see it and capture the video.

Under His Eye · 09-09-2018 9:35am

I would imagine the signing will be recorded and played on the news that day given the significance of the event.

alaimacerc · 09-09-2018 1:45pm

seamus wrote: »

https://twitter.com/JJ5000/status/1038044687498653696?s=19

She has since deleted the Tweet, but people I trust on Twitter know that it's her account, so it looks like she's been formally denied leave for appeal, and that's it, it's over.

Official confirmation won't come through till next week probably.

Boasting about filibustering again? Utterly shameless.

ETA: original tweet (or a duplicate of it) still seems to be live.
https://twitter.com/JoannaJ_Ireland/status/1038034108037951490

Loafing Oaf · 09-09-2018 2:19pm

alaimacerc wrote: »

Boasting about filibustering again? Utterly shameless.

ETA: original tweet (or a duplicate of it) still seems to be live.
https://twitter.com/JoannaJ_Ireland/status/1038034108037951490

Has all this legal silly buggers actually delayed the introduction of abortion by one day? The government line has always been that the services would come on line early in the New Year and AFAIK that is still on target. My understanding is that nothing could have happened legislatively for the past couple of months anyway because the Dail was on holidays...

end of the road · 09-09-2018 3:34pm

Igotadose wrote: »

Is this typically televised? Would like to see it and capture the video.

it will be on the news. rte, and probably virgin media if they still do news. other then that, signings aren't televised.

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Has all this legal silly buggers actually delayed the introduction of abortion by one day? The government line has always been that the services would come on line early in the New Year and AFAIK that is still on target. My understanding is that nothing could have happened legislatively for the past couple of months anyway because the Dail was on holidays...

that is my understanding as well.

Loafing Oaf · 18-09-2018 2:30pm

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/anti-abortion-group-to-target-women-during-three-day-window-80s8dw0dc

Some indication of the pro-lifers 'fightback' plans here. I don't see how they're going to be able to 'target' individual women seeking abortion during the three-day waiting period though...

Hotblack Desiato · 18-09-2018 4:09pm

The waiting period is a farce and should be removed.

Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

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