summoned to court for driving offence after i paid the fixed fine.

mcdgray129 · 20-01-2019 8:50pm #1

Hi everyone, i was just wondering if someone could give me some advice on this.
June of last year i was stopped by Garda while bringing my partner to a hospital appointment in Mullingar for a pregnancy checkup. The appointment was sent out to us to check that everything was ok with the pregnancy as a few months before this my partner had a miscarriage.
My car was out of NCT and Tax but since we couldnt get anyone to bring us over i decided to take the chance and drive over myself as we wanted to make sure everything was ok over what happened the last time.
On the way we where stopped by the Garda, i explained to them why i was driving the car and what happened and apologized, since my car had no tax or NCT they took it and impounded it and made us walk home (My partner ended up having another miscarriage and we lost twins). I wasnt asked to produce anything as i showed everything there and then.
Not long after i received 3 fixed fines, 1 for driving with no NCT another for no tax, and another for driving on a provisional license without L plats.
I paid all 3 fines on time.
However today i received 3 charges to appear in court for failed to produce an NCT cert, No insurance and failed to produce insurance certificate.

Last year was a very stressful year for myself and my partner and now this. I was just wondering how can i be summonsed to court when i paid the fixed fines and was never asked to produce anything in any garda station as i produced them on the side of the road. What will happen with this?, and how should i go about dealing with it?.

Oops69 · 20-01-2019 8:55pm

were you insured at the time or not ?

amcalester · 20-01-2019 8:57pm

Seems the court summons are separate to the fixed fines you paid.

punisher5112 · 20-01-2019 9:00pm

The car wouldn't be insured as per clause in insurance contract. No NCT no insurance.

Did you actually have a policy?

You will need to attend court and I would advise getting a solicitor whether before hand or find one in the court on the day.

20-01-2019 9:13pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

The car wouldn't be insured as per clause in insurance contract. No NCT no insurance.

Did you actually have a policy?

You will need to attend court and I would advise getting a solicitor whether before hand or find one in the court on the day.

What about the insurance companies 3rd party obligation?
Basically my understanding of it is , they have an obligation to take care of the 3rd party but can come after you for the costs meaning as long as the op had a policy in place he had insurance .

20-01-2019 9:13pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

The car wouldn't be insured as per clause in insurance contract. No NCT no insurance.

Did you actually have a policy?

You will need to attend court and I would advise getting a solicitor whether before hand or find one in the court on the day.

What about the insurance companies 3rd party obligation?
Basically my understanding of it is , they have an obligation to take care of the 3rd party but can come after you for the costs meaning as long as the op had a policy in place he had insurance .

punisher5112 · 20-01-2019 9:14pm

9935452 wrote: »

What about the insurance companies 3rd party obligation?
Basically my understanding of it is , they have an obligation to take care of the 3rd party but can come after you for the costs meaning as long as the op had a policy in place he had insurance .

He can still be done.

Sinus pain · 20-01-2019 9:19pm

Could be a clerical error? Do you paid the fines and have received a summons for the same breaches? Have you got proof of payment? If so turn up at the court with your proof and it will be dismissed

Ok I read it wrong. Just plead to the judge that you weren’t asked to produce - you were asked to pay fines and complied and would have complied with the production of certain had you have known. If you were covered by certs at the time you were asked to produce them you should be ok

ED E · 20-01-2019 9:23pm

Should the charge not be no insurance not failure to produce same?

4ensic15 · 20-01-2019 10:13pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

He can still be done.

No he can't. Under European law, clauses relating to the condition of a vehicle or the licensing of the driver can't be used to void a policy. There is a separate charge of obtaining insurance by fraud. Once there is an insurance cert the charge of driving without insurance can't be made out. Unfortunately for the o/p he will have to hope to get a fair hearing from the judge. If he had no NCT or Tax it is unlikely he can afford a solicitor.

mcdgray129 · 20-01-2019 11:29pm

Oops69 wrote: »

were you insured at the time or not ?

I was, i even showed my insurance cert on the road

Losty Dublin · 21-01-2019 1:09am

mcdgray129 wrote: »

I was, i even showed my insurance cert on the road

Gardaí at the roadside don't always have the time or the means to check up on the validity of an insurance certificate when roadside, or to see if there are any special conditions or endorsements attached to same. Also, very few people carry their papers with them in their vehicle. Therefore they will generally ask you to produce it at a station of your choosing. Similarly, they may ask you to produce evidence of having a valid NCT for your car

Bear in mind that there are separate offences of failing to display an Insurance Disc, failing to produce an Insurance Certificate and failing to have Valid Insurance. The latter is the most serious of the three and will be treated as such by a prosecuting Garda and a Judge in court. There are also similar offences in relation to the NCT.

Given that you seem to have some confusion as to what you have and haven't paid, that your car was seized and that you were traveling on a Learners Permit, you really should approach a local solicitor with experience in road traffic offences or you could be risking a conviction and disqualification.

crusier · 21-01-2019 1:18am

You should have you act together when your partner is pregnant and make sure you can complete journeys. It's not fair to blame gardai who have to try and decide who's acting the Mick and continuously chancing their arm. No sympathy here for your Summons but yes for your partner

mcdgray129 · 21-01-2019 1:52am

Sinus pain wrote: »

Could be a clerical error? Do you paid the fines and have received a summons for the same breaches? Have you got proof of payment? If so turn up at the court with your proof and it will be dismissed

Ok I read it wrong. Just plead to the judge that you weren’t asked to produce - you were asked to pay fines and complied and would have complied with the production of certain had you have known. If you were covered by certs at the time you were asked to produce them you should be ok

I have the letter they sent me out from the RSA after i paid the fines that states how many penalty points will be put on my license but im sure if i rang them with the PP Notice ID they should be able to send me a letter stating i paid the fines.

Im also going to ring my insurance to get a letter from them stating how i was insurance at the time also.

mcdgray129 · 21-01-2019 2:13am

crusier wrote: »

You should have you act together when your partner is pregnant and make sure you can complete journeys. It's not fair to blame gardai who have to try and decide who's acting the Mick and continuously chancing their arm. No sympathy here for your Summons but yes for your partner

Im not blaming the Garda for taking the car as that is their job, i knew the risk could be having the car taking off me if i drove it, only for this appointment came up in an emergency i never would of been driving the car in the first place. But at the time my partner just found out she was pregnant from her GP and we where giving a letter to go straight to mullingar the next day over the last miscarriage and my partner having other problems. But since i was insured and since the garda never asked me to produce anything (If he did i would of) or never informed me that i could be summons to court i didn't think id receive a summons to court after paying the fixed fine and receiving my penalty points.

But once i bring proof that i had a valid insurance at the time of being stopped and paid the fixed fine for the NCT shouldn't that be enough for the case to be dismissed?.

Johnny Red Cab · 21-01-2019 10:44am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Gardaí at the roadside don't always have the time or the means to check up on the validity of an insurance certificate when roadside, or to see if there are any special conditions or endorsements attached to same. Also, very few people carry their papers with them in their vehicle. Therefore they will generally ask you to produce it at a station of your choosing. Similarly, they may ask you to produce evidence of having a valid NCT for your car

Bear in mind that there are separate offences of failing to display an Insurance Disc, failing to produce an Insurance Certificate and failing to have Valid Insurance. The latter is the most serious of the three and will be treated as such by a prosecuting Garda and a Judge in court. There are also similar offences in relation to the NCT.

Given that you seem to have some confusion as to what you have and haven't paid, that your car was seized and that you were traveling on a Learners Permit, you really should approach a local solicitor with experience in road traffic offences or you could be risking a conviction and disqualification.

Loads of misinformation in this thread.

Once a roadside Garda makes a lawful demand for insurance and an insurance cert is produced, that demand has been satisfied. Any subsequent demand to produce at a Garda Station is unlawful. It is not the motorists problem that the Garda doesn't want to read the cert at the roadside.

La Haine · 21-01-2019 10:58am

mcdgray129 wrote: »

1 for driving with no NCT another for no tax, and another for driving on a provisional license without L plats.

You know what - skip the personal reasons and we're left with the above.
Not only were you a danger to yourself and your partner, but you were a danger to other roads users. Touch wood you get a ban and are priced out of insuring a car ever again.

mcdgray129 · 21-01-2019 11:52am

La Haine wrote: »

You know what - skip the personal reasons and we're left with the above.
Not only were you a danger to yourself and your partner, but you were a danger to other roads users. Touch wood you get a ban and are priced out of insuring a car ever again.

Thats a bit harsh. I've been driving for over 9 years just never got around to going for my full license yet so id suspect im a better driver then many people who has a full license.

Also im not being summons to court for No L plats or for driving with a provisional license.

Im being summons for 1, Failing to produce an NCT cert yet the garda knew my car was out of NCT since they told me id get a fixed fine and 3 penalty points on my license after i paid (And i did pay i got proof of this) and also never asked me to produce an NCT cert as they already knew i didnt have NCT on the car at the time.

and 2, Failing to produce an Insurance cert yet i showed my cert at the side of the road and the garda said that will do, nothing about bringing it into the Garda station. And 3 not having insurance yet i have proof i was insured on the car at that time.
So heres hoping all charges will be dropped. what say you?.

ohnonotgmail · 21-01-2019 11:59am

Have you spoken to the guard at all?

La Haine · 21-01-2019 12:03pm

Too busy over a 9 year period were you? Sure with the 'better than most' experience you have, you wouldn't have considered doing the test to save on insurance costs no?

Save it all for the judge, but do PLEASE come back on here and let us all know how you got on in court.

Jem123 · 21-01-2019 12:07pm

La Haine wrote: »

You know what - skip the personal reasons and we're left with the above.
Not only were you a danger to yourself and your partner, but you were a danger to other roads users. Touch wood you get a ban and are priced out of insuring a car ever again.

Hopefully you're never in a similar situation La Haine. A little compassion wouldn't go astray.

Mervyn Skidmore · 21-01-2019 12:11pm

Johnny Red Cab wrote: »

Loads of misinformation in this thread.

Once a roadside Garda makes a lawful demand for insurance and an insurance cert is produced, that demand has been satisfied. Any subsequent demand to produce at a Garda Station is unlawful. It is not the motorists problem that the Garda doesn't want to read the cert at the roadside.

This happened to me, asked on road side to show cert of insurance. Went to glove box and got it out only for the garda to tell me to show it at a station within 10 days. Completely ridiculous, and very inconvenient for me. Told a friend and he said the same happened to him.

Blazedup · 21-01-2019 12:18pm

4ensic15 wrote:

No he can't. Under European law, clauses relating to the condition of a vehicle or the licensing of the driver can't be used to void a policy. There is a separate charge of obtaining insurance by fraud. Once there is an insurance cert the charge of driving without insurance can't be made out. Unfortunately for the o/p he will have to hope to get a fair hearing from the judge. If he had no NCT or Tax it is unlikely he can afford a solicitor.

This is interesting... Where can I find out more about this?

seamus · 21-01-2019 12:18pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

He can still be done.

This is 100% incorrect.

Not having an NCT does not invalidate your mandatory insurance. End of story.

mcdgray129 wrote: »

I've been driving for over 9 years just never got around to going for my full license yet so id suspect im a better driver then many people who has a full license.

Bluntly, most people don't get done for no NCT, no Tax and no qualified driver. Being a good driver is not about staying between the lines, it's about driving safely and in accordance with the law.
You can't claim to be better than most drivers in a thread where you admit to having been stopped for 3 separate offences in one go.

Im being summons for 1, Failing to produce an NCT cert

and 2, Failing to produce an Insurance cert

And 3 not having insurance yet i have proof i was insured on the car at that time.

The "no insurance" charge is related to the non-production charge. If you don't produce the cert, it's assumed you weren't insured. So if you can bring your proof of insurance to court, at the very least the judge will strike out the "no insurance" charge.

In terms of non-production, it's standard practice after a stop to require someone to produce certificates at the station, so an appropriate note can be made of the details. The Garda noting it in his personal book is usually insufficient.
Your problem is that the Garda may have not mentioned it to you at the time, but when he reviews his notebook at the end of the day, he doesn't remember that. He thinks he did.

So he comes back to your case, notes that certs were never produced, and initiates the process.

In court it's your word against his.

I think for the sake of a few sheckles, it's worth engaging a solicitor on this who can advise on putting your best foot forward in court.

AlanG · 21-01-2019 12:19pm

Whatever about the circumstances the question you are asking is fairly simple - If you pay a fixed fine on time for an offense can you still be brought to court.
I would think the law of double jeopardy would apply in that you cannot be punished twice for the same incident.

If you are sure the summons is for the same incidents then you probably have a good case and I would expect it was a clerical error.

drunkmonkey · 21-01-2019 12:21pm

Isn't there something in EU law about taking a vehicle if it can endanger someones humans rights.
Did the Guard just leave the two of you on the side of the road. Completely out of order if they did as you were on the way to hospital.
I'd get a good solicitor to look at this and not just from the point of getting help with the charges.

ohnonotgmail · 21-01-2019 12:23pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Isn't there something in EU law about taking a vehicle if it can endanger someones humans rights.
Did the Guard just leave the two of you on the side of the road. Completely out of order if they did as you were on the way to hospital.
I'd get a good solicitor to look at this and not just from the point of getting help with the charges.

they were going to hospital for an appointment.

La Haine · 21-01-2019 12:24pm

Jem123 wrote: »

Hopefully you're never in a similar situation La Haine. A little compassion wouldn't go astray.

Nothing hopeful about it Pal. I know what legal obligations I need to fulfil, and do so, in order to drive on our public road. Don't care if the dog ate his homework or not, end of.

tomatofruit · 21-01-2019 12:31pm

bring your insurance certs and any other relevant docs (NCT) to the garda named on the summons prior to court date, asap really, get a contact number for him and follow up with a call to make sure all boxes are ticked, u will still need to attend on the day but will be dismissed when your number is called if you have produced everything,

Losty Dublin · 21-01-2019 1:29pm

Johnny Red Cab wrote: »

Loads of misinformation in this thread.

Once a roadside Garda makes a lawful demand for insurance and an insurance cert is produced, that demand has been satisfied. Any subsequent demand to produce at a Garda Station is unlawful. It is not the motorists problem that the Garda doesn't want to read the cert at the roadside.

No misinformation here. The lawful demand is to present your valid insurance certificate at a station of your choosing within a specified time. To not do so is an offence. That you may have a cert on hand at the time is all well and good but if the Garda requests production then that's what you should do. If not, well that's a different issue altogether. Bear in mind that you may be possession of what looks to be a valid certificate but it may well be an invalid certificate for any amount of reasons both fair and foul.

Again, I should repeat that OP should obtain professional legal advice here as he clearly is in unsure of exactly what he should do from here.

GM228 · 21-01-2019 2:37pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

No misinformation here. The lawful demand is to present your valid insurance certificate at a station of your choosing within a specified time. To not do so is an offence. That you may have a cert on hand at the time is all well and good but if the Garda requests production then that's what you should do. If not, well that's a different issue altogether. Bear in mind that you may be possession of what looks to be a valid certificate but it may well be an invalid certificate for any amount of reasons both fair and foul.

Again, I should repeat that OP should obtain professional legal advice here as he clearly is in unsure of exactly what he should do from here.

Actually the requirement to produce within 10 days is only lawful if you fail to produce there and then, if you produce there and then and they still request within 10 days then no offence is committed by failing to do so.

The conditions for the offence is for failing to produce there and then and failing to produce within 10 days. The problem is it is your word against theirs.

summoned to court for driving offence after i paid the fixed fine.

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