Smart Lights vs Smart Switches

Nelbert · 06-01-2018 7:44pm #1

Hi All,

Looking for a discussion. One of my final automation steps is ceiling lights in the house.

For this my plan has been to leverage existing z wave hub and get Fibaro Dimmer modules (just need a live and switched live at the switch, thus avoiding any rewiring).

However I’ve 0 objection to getting say an ikea smart light hub or a hue hub instead if it makes sense.

Our main use of ceiling lights is in the kitchen and the hall / landing lights. Others are very rarely used and lamps are what are mainly used.

The kitchen lights are on a dimmer switch at the moment and both these areas are within voice coverage of respective echos. Other areas would follow the lead of whatever was suitable for these most likely.

So would be interested in people’s thoughts?

Also would like to clarify what happens with these bulbs when you turn them on or off at the switch? WAF is huge so having herself flick a switch on and off and nothing happen because the bulb is set to off would be a big no no for example.

leonffrench · 06-01-2018 7:49pm

I just decked out the house with Philips hue bulbs and it seems such a waste now because everyone else in the house turns them off at the switch so alexa can't control them. The switch needs to be on at the wall for them to work. Once the switch is on you can turn lights on and off from phone/alexa. If the bulb is off but switch is on the lights can be turned on by flicking switch to off and then back on. Hope this makes sense. I will probably get smart switches at some point so others can turn on and off switch all they want but lights can still be operated

Nelbert · 06-01-2018 7:52pm

leonffrench wrote: »

I just decked out the house with Philips hue bulbs and it seems such a waste now because everyone else in the house turns them off at the switch so alexa can't control them. The switch needs to be on at the wall for them to work. Once the switch is on you can turn lights on and off from phone/alexa. If the bulb is off but switch is on the lights can be turned on by flicking switch to off and then back on. Hope this makes sense. I will probably get smart switches at some point so others can turn on and off switch all they want but lights can still be operated

Thanks so to clarify if they are “off” via voice or app control, toggling the switch off and back on turns the bulbs back on? Good to know.

leonffrench · 06-01-2018 8:47pm

Nelbert wrote:

Thanks so to clarify if they are â€œoffâ€ via voice or app control, toggling the switch off and back on turns the bulbs back on? Good to know.

Yes that's exactly it.

wexfordman2 · 06-01-2018 8:59pm

Nelbert wrote: »

Thanks so to clarify if they are “off” via voice or app control, toggling the switch off and back on turns the bulbs back on? Good to know.

Yep, but If they are on, toggling the switch does not turn them off again. This I think is a major flaw with smart lightbulbs, if they had thus feature then they would be almostna virtual replacement of existing bulbs and the light switch could be used almost as normal (replacing it with a momentary switch would get you 100% there).

I would go for smart switches instead if bulbs tbh (bulbs for lamps though )

leonffrench · 06-01-2018 10:02pm

wexfordman2 wrote:

Yep, but If they are on, toggling the switch does not turn them off again. This I think is a major flaw with smart lightbulbs, if they had thus feature then they would be almostna virtual replacement of existing bulbs and the light switch could be used almost as normal (replacing it with a momentary switch would get you 100% there).

Mine do? Philips Hue

wexfordman2 · 06-01-2018 10:44pm

leonffrench wrote: »

Mine do? Philips Hue

Yep, Philips hue, here is what I find

Initially off: toggle switch off and on again, light comes on.
Initially on:- toggle switch off and on again, light still on.

You can't turn the light off without using the app or a Philips switch

Do you find it different ?

leonffrench · 07-01-2018 2:02am

wexfordman2 wrote:

Do you find it different ?

Yes mine will go on or off at the switch no matter what the app says. Could be something to do with how your lights are wired maybe?

wexfordman2 · 07-01-2018 2:34am

leonffrench wrote: »

Yes mine will go on or off at the switch no matter what the app says. Could be something to do with how your lights are wired maybe?

Jist to make sure we havnt got our wires crossed, cos if its doing what you are saying, then brilliant.

If my hue light is on, I can turn it off at the light switch, but obviously, it can only then be turned back on via the light switch.

If my light switch is on, and my hue light is off, I can quickly turn the light switch off and back on again, and the light comes on.

If my switch is on, and my light is on, then turning the switch off and on again results in the light still being on.

So basically, with the light bulb on, the only way to turn it off is

A) switch it off at the light, where it remains off and no app control will turn it back in again.

turn it off via the app

matrim · 07-01-2018 11:28am

I've blocked off the main light switch and added a hue dimmer switch in the rooms where I still want physical control.

Nelbert · 07-01-2018 11:28am

So do folks think the idea of adjusting wiring to make ceiling live at all times (ie swap switch for connection block and cover with a blanking plate) and command stripping the TRÅDFRI remote control (for example) to the blanking plate would be a better idea?

Would avoid the on / off confusion at switch vs app level?

The fibaro modules involve taking out backing box, and making holes deeper to facilitate deeper backing boxes hence why I’m open to alternatives.

matrim · 07-01-2018 11:31am

Nelbert wrote: »

The fibaro modules involve taking out backing box, and making holes deeper to facilitate deeper backing boxes hence why I’m open to alternatives.

Apparently the Xiaomi switches work in Ireland but I haven't tried them

Nelbert · 07-01-2018 11:42am

matrim wrote: »

Apparently the Xiaomi switches work in Ireland but I haven't tried them

Hmmm...... do they work with any of the well known zigbee hubs?

matrim · 07-01-2018 11:51am

Nelbert wrote: »

Hmmm...... do they work with any of the well known zigbee hubs?

If you ask in the xiaomi thread someone might be able to give more details. Apparently people have gotten some of their stuff to work with smartthings hub.

eddiem74 · 07-01-2018 6:30pm

Nelbert wrote: »

The fibaro modules involve taking out backing box, and making holes deeper to facilitate deeper backing boxes hence why I’m open to alternatives.

Depending on how many switches you need to operate and the size of the existing back box you might get away without going to that trouble.

bk · 08-01-2018 1:38am

leonffrench wrote: »

I just decked out the house with Philips hue bulbs and it seems such a waste now because everyone else in the house turns them off at the switch so alexa can't control them. The switch needs to be on at the wall for them to work. Once the switch is on you can turn lights on and off from phone/alexa. If the bulb is off but switch is on the lights can be turned on by flicking switch to off and then back on. Hope this makes sense. I will probably get smart switches at some point so others can turn on and off switch all they want but lights can still be operated

I found that the key to WAF, is to add Hue Dimmer switches above the old fashioned switch.

I then covered the old switch with a switch cover so that it can still be used, but less likely to be accidentally used.

I found these ones very good:

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Bathroom-Wall-Switch-Flip-Cap-White-Plastic-Waterproof-Cover-BF-/253308624283?hash=item3afa5edd9b

Nelbert wrote: »

So do folks think the idea of adjusting wiring to make ceiling live at all times (ie swap switch for connection block and cover with a blanking plate) and command stripping the TRÅDFRI remote control (for example) to the blanking plate would be a better idea?

You could, but I prefer to leave the switch there as a backup, but cover it with the above switch cover so that it isn't accidentally used.

There are some other inventive solutions out there that people 3D print to cover the old switch with a holder for a Hue dimmer switch, so that the old switch is hidden but still available.

Nelbert wrote: »

Hmmm...... do they work with any of the well known zigbee hubs?

I've read that single button switch can work with SmartThings but the double buttons ones don't work properly. The Xioami stuff uses non standard zigbee.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Jist to make sure we havnt got our wires crossed, cos if its doing what you are saying, then brilliant.

If my hue light is on, I can turn it off at the light switch, but obviously, it can only then be turned back on via the light switch.

If my light switch is on, and my hue light is off, I can quickly turn the light switch off and back on again, and the light comes on.

If my switch is on, and my light is on, then turning the switch off and on again results in the light still being on.

So basically, with the light bulb on, the only way to turn it off is

A) switch it off at the light, where it remains off and no app control will turn it back in again.
turn it off via the app

Or by voice, or using the Hue Dimmer switch, or using motion sensors, or using timmers or using sunrise/sunset routines or using Harmony Remotes, etc. The list is pretty exhaustive.

To be honest, once you really start to get into Hue, you start completely forgetting about switches completely, even my Hue dimmer switches are rarely enough used.

BTW what actually happens when you toggle off and on again the physical switch, is that the bulb reset to it's default ON state.

So lets say you had the bulb set to Red colour and 50% brightness. Switching it off and on again at the wall switch, turns it off and then back on to white at 100%.

Just cover the wall switch and use Hue dimmer switches, etc. and you quickly forget about all this.

bk · 08-01-2018 1:48am

Getting back to the OP's question.

IMO Hue Smart lights are better then Smart Switches in most cases.

Smart switches just allow for on/off control and maybe dimming. While Hue also gives you support for white ambiance, which I find great and full colour too. It is a whole level up.

Hue has an amazing level of integration with so many other smart ecosystems, just makes it great, GH, Alexa, Siri, Harmony, Nest, SmartThings, IFTTT, Stringify, etc. This makes it very powerful.

Then add the Hue Dimmer Switches, Motion Sensors, lamps, light strips and things like sunset routines, etc. and you have a very powerful platform.

The only advantage I see with smart light switches is that they maybe cheaper if you have a lot of bulbs on one switch and allow control over unusual light types.

However I think the former might be going away with the use of cheaper Ikea smart bulbs with the Hue bridge.

Stoner · 08-01-2018 12:04pm

bk wrote:

However I think the former might be going away with the use of cheaper Ikea smart bulbs with the Hue bridge.

Couple of things.

WRT Wexfordman2 yes you are correct there is no "soft"off on the hue lamps.

You can't turn them off at the switch to a state that they can be turned on again by the app.

This would be very handy and if they operated something similar to daili mains you could get better use out of them

But I noted that the Ikea lamps don't react aswell to being switched on at the switch you often have to flick the switch a few times.

This might not be a big deal to some but it can take away from the lights acting exactly as they use to before the addition of a hue bridge.

On that other option. If they let you use a normally closed momentary switch you could leave your wiring as it was but you'd use the switchwire to pulse the lamp to turn it on, off dim etc

You'd get some unwanted falshing but it would be closer to a working soultion.

Again I'd imagine it's part of Philips reluctance to produce an inline switch unit, it's not part of the zigbee certification so they can keep out third part non zigbee solutions.

wexfordman2 · 08-01-2018 2:50pm

Stoner wrote: »

Couple of things.

WRT Wexfordman2 yes you are correct there is no "soft"off on the hue lamps.

You can't turn them off at the switch to a state that they can be turned on again by the app.

This would be very handy and if they operated something similar to daili mains you could get better use out of them

But I noted that the Ikea lamps don't react aswell to being switched on at the switch you often have to flick the switch a few times.

This might not be a big deal to some but it can take away from the lights acting exactly as they use to before the addition of a hue bridge.

On that other option. If they let you use a normally closed momentary switch you could leave your wiring as it was but you'd use the switchwire to pulse the lamp to turn it on, off dim etc

You'd get some unwanted falshing but it would be closer to a working soultion.

Again I'd imagine it's part of Philips reluctance to produce an inline switch unit, it's not part of the zigbee certification so they can keep out third part non zigbee solutions.

The more I think about it, the more I am beginning to think that smart bulbs etc are not a good idea for whole house automation, there are just too many if's,buts and single points of failure.

1) They cannot use standard or momentary light switches as a direct replacement for existing light switches.
2) Alternative is a seperate stick on switch and blanking out the existing wall switch, but tbh, I dont think this is in any way a viable solution, and its also expensive.
3) A bulb per fitting, again, I have a number of rooms with 7 or more gu10's on a single circuit, thats unrealisticly expensive to do so.
4) Compatibility, the ikea tradfi as a cost effective replacement/alternative to hue devices, appears to be a bit flaky, and I would not like to rely on this for long term functionality.
5) Single point of failure. If your hub goes faulty, then do your lights still work ? I might be wrong on this, maybe ?

A hardwired solution per circuit is the ideal solution imho. Hue is great, but for lamps and decorative lighting only, I cant see the logic in deploying it over a full house. If you are rewiring, I would def look at alternatives.

matrim · 08-01-2018 3:15pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

5) Single point of failure. If your hub goes faulty, then do your lights still work ? I might be wrong on this, maybe ?

If your hub stops working then your light works as a normal dumb light. Turn on the wall switch and it lights up to the default.

Couldn't you have a similar point of failure problem with smart switches on the wall? Something still has to tell them to be set to on or off

Wossack · 08-01-2018 3:21pm

bk wrote: »

Getting back to the OP's question.

IMO Hue Smart lights are better then Smart Switches in most cases.

Smart switches just allow for on/off control and maybe dimming. While Hue also gives you support for white ambiance, which I find great and full colour too. It is a whole level up.

Hue has an amazing level of integration with so many other smart ecosystems, just makes it great, GH, Alexa, Siri, Harmony, Nest, SmartThings, IFTTT, Stringify, etc. This makes it very powerful.

Then add the Hue Dimmer Switches, Motion Sensors, lamps, light strips and things like sunset routines, etc. and you have a very powerful platform.

The only advantage I see with smart light switches is that they maybe cheaper if you have a lot of bulbs on one switch and allow control over unusual light types.

However I think the former might be going away with the use of cheaper Ikea smart bulbs with the Hue bridge.

this is selling smart switches a little short :pac: they can do everything hue bulbs do, bar change colours/colour temp (and if you were dead set on that, you could combine hue and smart switches)

Most important aspect is the intuitiveness of a regular physical switch. No app needed, or visitor briefing

bk · 08-01-2018 3:29pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I am beginning to think that smart bulbs etc are not a good idea for whole house automation, there are just too many if's,buts and single points of failure.

Having kitted out my entire home with Hue smart bulbs (and a sprinkling of Ikea), I couldn't disagree more with you.

I find it incredibly reliable, I wouldn't have gone all in on Hue if I hadn't found it reliable and past the family acceptance test.

I think the difficulty you are having is thinking that light switches are important. Once you go Hue, you quickly and completely forget about using light switches any more.

Lights simply come on and go off as I walk around the house, without me touching a thing. You stop even thinking about it once set up and end up getting annoyed when staying in an old fashioned house with switches.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

1) They cannot use standard or momentary light switches as a direct replacement for existing light switches.

It REALLY, REALLY, doesn't matter, you just use Hue dimmers switches if you really want to press something!

wexfordman2 wrote: »

2) Alternative is a seperate stick on switch and blanking out the existing wall switch, but tbh, I dont think this is in any way a viable solution, and its also expensive.

Perfectly viable, I and a loads of other people have done it and are perfectly happy with it.

It isn't that expensive, the cover I use costs just €1.30! And the Hue dimmers give you lots of extra functionality, such as been able to dim and select different scenes, etc.

Also them being remotes is very handy when putting the little one to bed.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

3) A bulb per fitting, again, I have a number of rooms with 7 or more gu10's on a single circuit, thats unrealisticly expensive to do so.

Even with Hue it isn't that costly when you consider the cost of getting an electrician out to run wires to switches, etc.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

4) Compatibility, the ikea tradfi as a cost effective replacement/alternative to hue devices, appears to be a bit flaky, and I would not like to rely on this for long term functionality.

Fair enough, I'll give you that one. Though Hue can be cost effective too if you buy during sales, etc. And then you have the likes of Innr too.

Even if you are starting from scratch, if you sit down and actually do the maths and include all the costs, I'm not sure it will work out cheaper in anything but the most extreme cases. Don't forget the following costs:

- Dimmable LED bulbs
- Vera or LightwaveRF hub
- Wiring and electrician costs if going with a wired solution.

That ain't cheap either unless you are an electrician yourself.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

5) Single point of failure. If your hub goes faulty, then do your lights still work ? I might be wrong on this, maybe?

Yes, they continue to work perfectly as standard bulbs if the hub is down.

As an aside I find Hue bridge to be pretty much the most reliable piece of HA tech I have. It has never failed.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

A hardwired solution per circuit is the ideal solution imho. Hue is great, but for lamps and decorative lighting only, I cant see the logic in deploying it over a full house. If you are rewiring, I would def look at alternatives.

Hue works fantastically over an entire home and gives you WAY more functionality then a simple smart switch.

I'm not saying that there are no uses for smart switches, there are. I might even get one or two myself. But I think their really aren't as useful as smart bulbs and I also think the UK/Ireland market lacks any really good solutions.

With respect I think you are too caught up in what you have and can't really see beyond thinking that you really need a traditional switch. And of course perhaps I'm too caught up in the solution I have in place. But I don't think most of what you say above is true, it certainly isn't for me or most people who use Hue.

Again I want to stress this point, once you start using Hue, you quickly forget about switches at all and it all just becomes automated and even the Hue dimmers get rarely used. Switches really aren't that important when you come down to it.

bk · 08-01-2018 3:36pm

Wossack wrote: »

this is selling smart switches a little short :pac: they can do everything hue bulbs do, bar change colours/colour temp (and if you were dead set on that, you could combine hue and smart switches)

White Ambiance and Colour are very important additions.

To be honest, I find little benefit in smart switches alone. I mean what is the point in just being able to remotely switch on/off your light. I do that maybe a few times a year.

It if white ambiance and colour that gets used daily.

Wossack wrote: »

Most important aspect is the intuitiveness of a regular physical switch. No app needed, or visitor briefing

Funny that, I've Hue throughout my home and almost never use the app to turn lights on/off.

Hue motion sensors, Hue dimmer switches, Hue scenes, no need to touch an app or old style light switch.

BTW grandparents, friends and baby sitters have had zero issues using my Hue lights and they needed no briefing. They just use the Hue dimmer switches where needed (most rooms don't even need that with motion sensors).

bk · 08-01-2018 3:42pm

One problem I see with Smart Light switches, is that there is no really great solution for them in the UK/Ireland market and they all offer far less then Hue for similar cost. The solutions I've seen are:

- Require neutral which most Irish homes don't have.
- Are relatively expensive professionally installed systems.
- LightwaveRF, which is very expensive and seems to have issues.
- Xiaomi which is cheap, but doesn't integrate with anything else.

I'm really not seeing what really good smart switch solution people are saying that others should look at?

Wossack · 08-01-2018 3:56pm

bk wrote: »

White Ambiance and Colour are very important additions.

To be honest, I find little benefit in smart switches alone. I mean what is the point in just being able to remotely switch on/off your light. I do that maybe a few times a year.

It if white ambiance and colour that gets used daily.

Well, you dont use the smart switches alone - in the same way that you arent using your hue bulbs alone (remotes / motion sensors / scenes etc)

bk · 08-01-2018 4:06pm

Wossack wrote: »

Well, you dont use the smart switches alone - in the same way that you arent using your hue bulbs alone (remotes / motion sensors / scenes etc)

Sure, but that still doesn't get you white ambiance and colour. Unless you are also putting smart bulbs in too, which short of defeats the purpose of the conversation.

Wossack · 08-01-2018 4:25pm

bk wrote: »

Sure, but that still doesn't get you white ambiance and colour. Unless you are also putting smart bulbs in too, which short of defeats the purpose of the conversation.

nothing is going to get you colour and ambiance short of changing the bulb, yes (a point I conceded earlier)

but if physical switches are of any way a concern (and reading the OP, that appears to be the case - colour/ambiance not mentioned), I think Hue falls short

bk · 08-01-2018 4:35pm

Wossack wrote: »

nothing is going to get you colour and ambiance short of changing the bulb, yes (a point I conceded earlier)

but if physical switches are of any way a concern (and reading the OP, that appears to be the case - colour/ambiance not mentioned), I think Hue falls short

And what is wrong with the Hue dimmer switch? It covers all of the OP's concerns. It covers the WAF and gives the OP all the control they desire (voice control).

And I'm still not sure what Smart switch people are actually recommending as an alternative?

Wossack · 08-01-2018 4:46pm

ah, I thought it was the OP who dismissed that idea, but Im mistaken (was wexfordman) - not heard back from OP if it would be a runner

I have fibaro dimmer 2 modules and would recommend (for example - aeotec do similar). No neutral required, mine fitted into regular pattress boxes, and maintained a regular switch plate. You wouldnt know it was there.

bk · 08-01-2018 5:00pm

I totally get why people like the idea of Smart Switches. The idea seems simple. Just replace your light switch with a wifi switch and now you have smart light switches, nice.

But the reality of the Irish/UK market is that there is little in the way of really good options. The reality doesn't match the theory.

- You have LightwaveRF, which looks great, but is quite expensive and seemingly is having issues with wireless performance.
- Xiaomi which is cheap and cheerful, but doesn't integrate with anything.
- Expensive professional systems, that require ripping holes in your walls and getting electricians in, €€€€.

The lack of Neutral here really limits peoples choices.

I believe that for the vast majority of people wanting smart lighting, given what is available in Ireland, by far the easiest and cheapest option is just banging some Hue bulbs in and a hue dimmer switch. Plus you get the benefit of white ambiance and colour and all the other nice features.

Hopefully some day this will change and we get more smart switch options. But at the moment options aren't great.

bk · 08-01-2018 5:21pm

Wossack wrote: »

I have fibaro dimmer 2 modules and would recommend (for example - aeotec do similar). No neutral required, mine fitted into regular pattress boxes, and maintained a regular switch plate. You wouldnt know it was there.

Ah, cool, some questions for you so if you don't mind?

- What z-wave hub are you using?
- Are you using a standard light switch with it? As opposed to some Z-wave switch?
- If you are using a standard light switch, what happens if you switch the power off at the light switch? Can you then remotely switch the light on? Or do you have to hit the light switch on first?

Thanks, BTW the conversation between wexfordman2 and I probably went a bit Off Topic and was more about general ideas of approaches to smart lighting, rather then the OP's specific needs.

Nelbert · 08-01-2018 5:39pm

Nice to see I’ve incited a riot / discussion.......

I’d be thinking of using the Fibaro Dimmer module. I’ve an existing z wave system and the boss cares little about light colours but is very particular about her nice brushed steel light switches.

I’m no electrician but have no problem replacing switches or sockets so that’s no problem.

The boss would use the switches particularly in the kitchen and having a switch and a hue control / dimmer side by side would somewhat confuse things.....
I think I’ll try get one fibaro module and perhaps the IKEA gateway and bulb set and try both in the kitchen and give her the option.

The regular brushed steel switch will work as a regular switch but the ikea remote can dim etc if / when required.

Herself has a tendency to leave kitchen ceiling lights on full whack, where as I would dim or turn them off when we watch tv in the adjoining sitting room.....

Glad my laziness to get up and walk a distance of 10 feet has started such a good discussion.

bk · 08-01-2018 6:13pm

Nelbert wrote: »

Nice to see I’ve incited a riot / discussion.......

I’d be thinking of using the Fibaro Dimmer module. I’ve an existing z wave system and the boss cares little about light colours but is very particular about her nice brushed steel light switches.

I’m no electrician but have no problem replacing switches or sockets so that’s no problem.

In that case, since you are already invested in z-wave and are comfortable with wiring, then yes, probably best to stick with that.

Nelbert wrote: »

The boss would use the switches particularly in the kitchen and having a switch and a hue control / dimmer side by side would somewhat confuse things.....

I will say, if you use that €1.30 light cover I linked too above, it eliminates any confusion. My missus took to it straight away and seems no issue with any visitor. A switch is a switch, as long as the more traditionally obvious one is hidden away, then they have no problem using the new one.

But since you are already into z-wave, then I'd agree fine to stick with that.

Nelbert wrote: »

I think I’ll try get one fibaro module and perhaps the IKEA gateway and bulb set and try both in the kitchen and give her the option.

One thing I'd think about is a motion sensor for the hallway lights. That has been a big success with my family, much to my surprise.

Nelbert wrote: »

The regular brushed steel switch will work as a regular switch but the ikea remote can dim etc if / when required.

Herself has a tendency to leave kitchen ceiling lights on full whack, where as I would dim or turn them off when we watch tv in the adjoining sitting room.....

Glad my laziness to get up and walk a distance of 10 feet has started such a good discussion.

Haha, I've exactly the same scenario!! Semi shared kitchen/living room, she is always leaving the light on in there which is annoying from the living room.

It is the last light I have to "fix"

Unfortunately the light fitting doesn't take Hue lights, some daft tiny bulbs. So either a smart switch like this or change the light fitting for a Hue compatible one. Maybe an Ikea death Star light fitting

One option to think about is a motion sensor for the kitchen. Light turns off automatically a few minutes after she leaves! :cool:

Wossack · 08-01-2018 6:20pm

bk wrote: »

Ah, cool, some questions for you so if you don't mind?

- What z-wave hub are you using?
- Are you using a standard light switch with it? As opposed to some Z-wave switch?
- If you are using a standard light switch, what happens if you switch the power off at the light switch? Can you then remotely switch the light on? Or do you have to hit the light switch on first?

Thanks, BTW the conversation between wexfordman2 and I probably went a bit Off Topic and was more about general ideas of approaches to smart lighting, rather then the OP's specific needs.

- I have my fibaro dimmers hooked up to my samsung smartthings

- using a standard light switch - normal 2 state toggle type.

- am unsure, but the fibaro might be unique in it working perfectly with toggle switches - doesnt require a momentary type switch. Doesnt need double flips or anything, a single flip changes the light state from on to off (or vice versa). The switches state does not interfere with the app/hub at all. A physical switch flip is updated immediately in the app too, which is a nice touch.

Note, Ive no dimming control with my toggles - but may be possible with some convoluted press sequence, havent investigated. Roller shutter switches would likely be ideal if you wanted full dimmer control at the wall. But this suits my purposes though. Like you, trying to reduce physical wall switch use, not increase it

bk · 08-01-2018 6:46pm

Wossack wrote: »

- I have my fibaro dimmers hooked up to my samsung smartthings

Wossack wrote: »

- using a standard light switch - normal 2 state toggle type.

- am unsure, but the fibaro might be unique in it working perfectly with toggle switches - doesnt require a momentary type switch. Doesnt need double flips or anything, a single flip changes the light state from on to off (or vice versa). The switches state does not interfere with the app/hub at all. A physical switch flip is updated immediately in the app too, which is a nice touch.

Cool, so it sounds like the dimmer module is bypassing the actual switch and the switch is just acting as a control to signal the dimmer what to do.

I'm assuming that the light switch has no relation to the traditional ON/OFF positions. So the switch might be in the traditional OFF position, but the light is actually on due to app control. Moving the light switch to the ON position might then actually switch if off. In other words, like with two way lights, where the switch position has no physical relation to the light being on or off.

I think some people use momentary switches in this case, just for completeness, as not to confuse people with the non standard switch position. Though I don't think it is technically necessary.

Wossack wrote: »

Note, Ive no dimming control with my toggles - but may be possible with some convoluted press sequence, havent investigated. Roller shutter switches would likely be ideal if you wanted full dimmer control at the wall. But this suits my purposes though. Like you, trying to reduce physical wall switch use, not increase it

Yes, I've already pretty much eliminated it in the hall, bathrooms and utility rooms with motion sensors and greatly reduced in the living room with sunset routines.

This z-wave setup is a very interesting solution, it might be a solution to my kitchen light, though it is unfortunately a double switch, so I'll have to investigate further.

BTW I just watched the install video for this module. I will say that it isn't straight forward, you would have to be VERY comfortable with wiring. I do think it is another level up of DIYing from Hue and many people might need an electrician to install it, which would blow out the cost. Just FYI for anyone else reading this, be careful, such wiring can kill you.

Stoner · 08-01-2018 9:10pm

bk wrote:

Having kitted out my entire home with Hue smart bulbs (and a sprinkling of Ikea), I couldn't disagree more with you.

I think though that he's right about the switching. It's an issue for most.

There's no way I'm replacing my recessed edge brushed chrome switches with plastic surface switches.

Anyway they could do both with a firmware change

You basic 10 euro halogen PIR light has similar functionality

bk · 08-01-2018 10:08pm

Stoner wrote: »

You basic 10 euro halogen PIR light has similar functionality

Nope, not at all. For instance it can't adjust the brightness level depending on time of day. Such as turning on the lights at very low brightness at night so you don't blind yourself when going to the toilet.

This is really what makes these motion sensors great.

Though of course the same is possible with the above z-wave dimmer, a z-wave motion sensor and SmartThings, though not the white ambiance/colour.

Stoner wrote: »

I think though that he's right about the switching. It's an issue for most.

There's no way I'm replacing my recessed edge brushed chrome switches with plastic surface switches.

Of course, aesthetics is a fair point, but also a personal one.

Personally, given the mountain of toys strewn all over my place, the look of light switches is the least of my aesthetic worries

If anything, when people do notice them, it is a major talking point and people are wowed by them.

However thinking about it, a solution to combine best of both worlds:
- Use the above mentioned Z-Wave dimmer switches with your nice brushed metal switches.
- Connect to SmartThings hub
- Put Hue bulbs in and also connect them to SmartThings hub.

That should allow you to use the switch to switch the light on/off, but use dimming/white ambiance/colour on the Hue bulb.

Would take a bit of setting up in SmartThings, but would be doable.

You could also use those nice Z-Wave scene selectors too.

wexfordman2 · 09-01-2018 12:54am

I hope we're not falling out bk :-)

I have I think about 55 light fittings in my house, excluding lamps. They are a combination of internal, external, gu10, b22 etc etc.

Manual control for these is spread across about 20 different wall switches, 35 individual gangs/buttons

I need to add some more outdoor lights in the garden and some facial dowblights as well, so prob about another 20 light fittings in total.

Thats 75 bulbs, and 35 switches, but they are all smart switches controlled by 8 din rail mounted relays, which is where the smarts come in.

My wall switches are all brushed steel (momentary)/switches that look and feel exactly like normal switches, no one notices the difference, guests etc.

If I lose my bb, my hub, everything, the lighting still works exactly like before, like normal switches.

I have remote access, remote app control, routines, macros, voice control, pir motion control, timers, sunset detection, alarm system integration, you name it I've got it. And I and others in the house still use the wall switches, I wouldn't and couldn't do without them.

All of this is done using just 8 modules as the core of the system, in my fuse board controlling light relays, at a hardware cost of about 40 euro per circuit (not per bulb). Its reckoned that a standard 3 bed semi could have this system installed for less than 1k hardware cost (excluding a controller).

I've had this sort of system for nearly twenty years, only really added voice control to it since google home came about.

I also have hue, but just in a few lamps. I bekeive there is a place for hue, primarily for lighting effects, lamps and decorative lighting, and as a solution for refits without having to wire.

However, if someone is rewiring, or has the option or alternative to put in smart switches, then i think it would be daft to go the hue route.

If you have a neutral in your switch, then certainly no need to go the hue direction into your inbuilt lighting. If you are rewiring, then go for a combination of cat5 and neutral in the wall switches, the cost of wiring is very very cheap relative to a build cost overall.

I love hue, I think its great, but it has its limitations, and as others touched on, one of these is the lack of a toggle option (so close yet so far). With a toggle option you would almost have full functionality using momentary switches.

wexfordman2 · 09-01-2018 12:57am

BTW, I would not hook hue lights to a smart switch, logic of controlling it would be way too much.

bk · 09-01-2018 12:54pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

All of this is done using just 8 modules as the core of the system, in my fuse board controlling light relays, at a hardware cost of about 40 euro per circuit (not per bulb). Its reckoned that a standard 3 bed semi could have this system installed for less than 1k hardware cost (excluding a controller).

This is my problem, I feel like your numbers are completely out of whack.

So take a typical person with a typical 3 bed home, already built and in place.

You are saying they should get builders and electricians in to rip holes in their walls to run cables to each switch and you honestly think that is cheaper then just slotting some Hue bulbs and dimmers in. Not a hope!

Even in the case of a new build, then you have to factor in the cost of buying 35 dimmable LED bulbs (not cheap) and the extra cost of electricians running extra cables, etc. It isn't going to be cheap. Though at least with a new build, it is a more reasonable proposition, though I'd say Neutral at switches and deep back boxes is probably enough.

Now Wossack's solution of a Z-Wave dimmer is a reasonable solution to a person with lots of bulbs off one switch and who wants to add control to an existing home without re-wiring. But it isn't necessarily cheaper then Hue.

I just did the maths for my place and it worked out about the same cost (without brushed metal switches, that makes it more expensive). But without white ambiance and colour.

It sounds like you have a very large home, with lots of bulbs and are coming from that perspective. But that isn't the case for the majority of people living in apartments up to 3 bed semi's.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

However, if someone is rewiring, or has the option or alternative to put in smart switches, then i think it would be daft to go the hue route.

Thing is, I feel that it an incredibly small number of people.

The vast majority are just looking to just add some smart lights to their existing home, without too mad costs. I suspect ripping holes in walls is not an option for most people. I think for most people Hue is an easier and much cheaper solution.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

If you have a neutral in your switch, then certainly no need to go the hue direction into your inbuilt lighting.

Which of course most Irish homes don't have and even if you do then you still don't gain the advantages of white ambiance or colour.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

If you are rewiring, then go for a combination of cat5 and neutral in the wall switches, the cost of wiring is very very cheap relative to a build cost overall.

But how many people are doing a full rewire, I just don't see it happening much.

Certainly if you are doing a full build/gutting a house, then sure, putting Neutral at every switch and deep back boxes is recommended. Though I'm not sure there is much need for cat5, you can easily achieve the same with Z-wave.

But I really don't think the costs are at all as cheap as you make out, not for a typical home. I think you are forgetting a lot of the costs, the money you paid for dimable LEDs, what you paid for electricians to run extra cabling, the cost of nice brush metal switches, etc. That all adds up quickly.

Nelbert · 09-01-2018 4:03pm

Neutral at the switch is thankfully not required for the fibaro and a few others.
And for me I’m in the fortunate position of comparing switch cost (vera controller is long since bought) vs hue hub and bulbs which skews things a bit.

At the moment I’m leaning towards Hue or IKEA hub plus two bulbs to trial in the kitchen and I’ll install a Fibaro Dimmer elsewhere in simple on/ off mode to avail of it not needing neutral.
I honest don’t think we need or would use the white ambience and colour aspects just the dimming so given that’s one of Hue’s largest selling points it’s why I am only will to “dip my toe”.... essentially I’m just looking to “smarten” the kitchen switch and / or the associated bulbs.

I really don’t think those switch covers are a boss approval aesthetic however I’ve come across small clear switch guards that just stick over the actual switch part rather than the covering the whole faceplate.

With this I can assess hue as an option for the rest of the house. Certain light fightings use the small G9 type bulbs and in those fightings it will likely be the switch that gets smartened rather than the bulbs as I don’t think any smart bulbs are available for those.

bk · 09-01-2018 5:12pm

Nelbert wrote: »

I honest don’t think we need or would use the white ambience and colour aspects just the dimming so given that’s one of Hue’s largest selling points it’s why I am only will to “dip my toe”.... essentially I’m just looking to “smarten” the kitchen switch and / or the associated bulbs.

A small warning about this, I started out the same, getting only white only bulbs, I've since replaced them all with White Ambiance/Colour.

Let us know how it all goes.

Nelbert · 09-01-2018 5:37pm

bk wrote: »

A small warning about this, I started out the same, getting only white only bulbs, I've since replaced them all with White Ambiance/Colour.

Let us know how it all goes.

The boss gives out about it looking like the Red light district when I stick the RGB strips on anything other than white...... so I’m not expecting any issues....

From checking I’ll likely go with the ikea gateway kit as it includes the remote / dimmer.

bk · 09-01-2018 5:53pm

Nelbert wrote: »

The boss gives out about it looking like the Red light district when I stick the RGB strips on anything other than white...... so I’m not expecting any issues....

Haha, my missus loves it when we put on red light time

What I've found most useful is White Ambiance. I work from home a lot, so nice to put the lights on bright "day light" white during the day, to help concentrate, in particular in these dark winter days.

Though you might not need that, just FYI.

Metric Tensor · 10-01-2018 2:11am

I have one of the fibaro units - got it as a present to myself and as a test case for the Christmas. It is an awesome piece of kit! I'll bullet point a few things below but anyone who has any questions feel free to ask!

It's tiny - one fitted in my backbox without too much effort. There is approx 40mm from my switch plate to the back of the box.
It works with a two wire set-up but you may need to install a small bypass at the ceiling rose or downlighter if the load on the circuit is too small. Fibaro say anything below 50W but mine is working fine on a circuit with 22W without a bypass
It works with either a toggle switch or momentary switch. In the case of toggle switches you can tell to have up for off and down for on in all cases or tell it to simply switch the light to the opposite of its current setting when the switch is toggled. This was important for me because I wanted the switching to remain as before for regular visitors - they don't even know it's there.
You can dim with a "standard" toggle switch too by flicking it a certain number of times. (I just use my phone or automation if dimming is required - which it isn't in its current location)
It has a power readout showing usage and accumlated usage, which is quite nice
Wiring it requires understanding of lighting circuits and a healthy degree of electrical skill. It is in no way as easy as putting in a light bulb. I had my electrician here on other business so I got him to install it with me.
Although it works well on a two wire system there is some difficulty with two-way switches. You need the live and switched live wire at the same box for the fibaro unit. One of the ways of doing two way switches in older Irish houses was by using a "strapper." With the strapper set up the live and switched live are at separate boxes (i.e. at either end of a corridor or top and bottom of a stairs). In that case you need to hope there's a second switch at the switched live box powered by a live on the same circuit.
I have found it to be very robust on my z-wave network so far. Not a single drop-off or out (on a relatively unpopulated network)
Obviously it can't change colour like the hues - but there is pretty much nothing else "missing" as far as I can see and it could save a fortune if you have 5-10 GU10s all on the one circuit or a room with 9 candle B22s (both of which the previous owner of our house installed!).

For me the two biggest pros and cons are as follows:

Pros:
1. Light switch behaves exactly as before with existing LEDs in place.
2. I aready had a z-wave system so no hub or changes needed to my home automation set up

Cons:
1. The installation of these requires re-wiring your light switch and in anything other than a simple one gang two-wire set-up requires quite a bit of thought and in depth wiring knowledge.
2. No colour changing - I would really like to be able to switch my bulbs between cool white and warm white in certain rooms. RGB doesn't really interest me.

Nelbert · 10-01-2018 3:08pm

To complicate things the kitchen light switch actually has neutral! Had the ikea gateway in the basket and was about to order online and given the kitchen is in a relatively new extension I said I’d double check behind the switch!

So now I’m thinking dimmer module or switch would be the way to go!

One of the TKB z wave dimmer switch or give herself the option of module and brushed steel switch.

I don’t really agree with the point about needing an electrician to wire it. The module itself replaces the switch, the only complication is the crossing of the neutral on the module into the switched live but that wouldn’t put me off in a 2 wire setup. Once you then you are hooking your switch up to the module. Vesternet wiring diagrams are quite clear for these modules in my opinion.

bk · 10-01-2018 3:12pm

Thanks Metric Tensor, great review. Seems like a very good product and a decent option for many people.

bk · 10-01-2018 3:17pm

Nelbert wrote: »

I don’t really agree with the point about needing an electrician to wire it. The module itself replaces the switch, the only complication is the crossing of the neutral on the module into the switched live but that wouldn’t put me off in a 2 wire setup. Once you then you are hooking your switch up to the module. Vesternet wiring diagrams are quite clear for these modules in my opinion.

I think you should keep in mind that probably the vast majority of people wouldn't have a clue what the majority of terms you said above mean!!

Most people have little or no knowledge of wiring. Having watched the video, I'd say it would be on the more complicated end for even people comfortable with wiring a plug. Doable, but I'd say more for people who have already done a lot of wiring.

BTW Yes, if you have Neutral, then a full z-wave switch is probably the way to go.

Nelbert · 10-01-2018 4:49pm

bk wrote: »

I think you should keep in mind that probably the vast majority of people wouldn't have a clue what the majority of terms you said above mean!!

Most people have little or no knowledge of wiring. Having watched the video, I'd say it would be on the more complicated end for even people comfortable with wiring a plug. Doable, but I'd say more for people who have already done a lot of wiring.

BTW Yes, if you have Neutral, then a full z-wave switch is probably the way to go.

Fair point. I guess I’m more comfortable than most, when I think of it most of my mates probably couldn’t replace a socket let alone be trusted to wire the module despite how simple I perceive it.

insular1 · 27-02-2018 10:48am

bk wrote: »

I think you should keep in mind that probably the vast majority of people wouldn't have a clue what the majority of terms you said above mean!!

This is me at the moment! But luckily enough we are in the process of a new build so will have an electrician to do all this for us. This thread was really interesting to me. Hope some of you guys could offer some advice on my situation. As I said it's a new build, I love the idea of automated app controlled lighting and dimming but physical brushed metal switches are a requirement for my wife. What would you guys recommend for someone in my position? Basically want to be able to turn on, off and dim lights from an app or motion sensors or remote but need them to also function normally via a wall switch. I'm not really bothered about multi coloured lighting so not a necessity but maybe a nice to have.

Nelbert · 27-02-2018 10:57am

I got the fibaro dimmer module for my kitchen ceiling lights and combined it with a brushed steel 2 button momentary switch.
You press the button to turn on / off, hold it to adjust brightness, press twice quickly to turn to max brightness.

The 2nd button is used to control other lights. So I press the second button and the fibaro sends a signal to other z wave units to tell them to turn on / off.

Hard lesson for me would result in my advice being smart bulbs for lamps, and smart switches for ceiling lights however if you want to go entirely with Hue smart switch in that scenario would be one of the hue dimmers controlling the associated lights.

Recently bought an ikea lamp with built in phone charger, because it’s the plug rather than the bulb that’s smart you can’t charge the phone with the light off. Just to give you a drawback.

As long as you think about the end user and work to that.

If it’s a rewire you should be getting neutral at the switches and get deepest back boxes you can. Will afford you the freedom of choice.

Smart Lights vs Smart Switches

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