Future proof renovation for IoT

bk · 22-01-2019 6:01pm

Phibsboro wrote: »

I think we'll see ongoing development of the lower frequency ranges, like the upcoming ax that will go to 11Gbs. At that speed any talk of backhaul goes out the window, it is faster than the cat6 maximum.

I wouldn't take much notice of the number on the box for wifi. There is a massive difference between that number and the real world. It is usually 1/3rd to 1/4th of the advised speed. While ethernet is usually about 85% of advertised speed (just overhead).

Of course wifi 6 is great for people without a wired network and an existing home. It will give you interesting mess network options. But for anyone building a home from scratch or renovating I'd still highly recommend running cat6 for access points. Multiple wifi 6 access points backhauled by a cat6 ethernet network with 10gig switches would make for a very reliable and high throughput setup.

wexfordman2 · 22-01-2019 10:10pm

Phibsboro wrote: »

I was just about to start a similar thread but saw this one, some interesting advice already.

Re cabling, I can see both points of view. I did my current house (tiny terraced) up around 10 years ago and put cat5 and coax into every room. In the end I only used the ones I used from day 1, nothing I intended as future proofing got used. The key thing for me was to have a switch/router at the TV as that is where most of wired connections are (popcorn, TV, Android TV box, an old Apple Mini ).

Having said that, I can see BK's point about running cat6 (and poe) to support future high frequency/short range WiFi. But then, as BK says, you should probably be putting in your ceiling rather than your wall. Overall though, given that ad actually predates ac and still isn't widely available domestically, I'm not sure anything non-wall penetrating is going to take off domestically. I think we'll see ongoing development of the lower frequency ranges, like the upcoming ax that will go to 11Gbs. At that speed any talk of backhaul goes out the window, it is faster than the cat6 maximum.

I think for my place I will run cables purely for three reasons - one to cover any possible distance issues (so one to a landing ceiling and one to a garden room I hope to do), secondly to cover privacy issues (so one to my office for my main work computer) and finally to cover immediate wired needs at the TV. For coax, I'll put legacy ones in for Sat and Terrestrial in the living room but the future is definitely IP so no coax anywhere else.

Finally, another question for you all - I had this epiphany when I was reading about light switches ideally needing a dropped neutral, deep back box etc. My gut feel is that the future of lighting is virtually switchless. I run a few Hue sensors here at home and rarely if ever hit a light switch. More to the point, any switches in the future will probably be wireless and unpowered, ala the new range of Friends of Hue passive switches. In that context, I am soooo tempted to future proof by running no wires at all for light switches. Every light is directly connected back to a panel of on-off switches near the main switchboard. This allows for the requisite power on/off needed to pair most wifi bulbs. All you have in the rooms are sensors and passive wall switches for the occasional manual activation.

Any thoughts on that idea?

Your Point about wireless speeds exceeding wired cat6 is interesting, but I still don't think it diminishes the need to use cat6 as much as possible. Remember every bit of traffic you place on your wired network reduces load and improves performance.in your wiress network.

The rule still stands Imho, wired first always, wireless for low throughout devices and mobile devices, tablets laptops etc.

With regards lighswitches, I woukd still.use wired, butbas with my current house, if I was rebuilding, I would have no 220v at the light switch but I would.wire cat5/twisted pair for smart lighting control to the light switxh . This is common approach with most smart lighting systems, such as cbus, control4, velbus, knx, idratek, loxone etc

Phibsboro · 23-01-2019 12:53am

wexfordman2 wrote: »

With regards lighswitches, I woukd still.use wired, butbas with my current house, if I was rebuilding, I would have no 220v at the light switch but I would.wire cat5/twisted pair for smart lighting control to the light switxh . This is common approach with most smart lighting systems, such as cbus, control4, velbus, knx, idratek, loxone etc

My gut feel is that those systems are dead. They are the way home automation was done 20 years ago, before the current smart home wave of products arrived. They are expensive, usually require professional installation and even professional set up. For large, luxury houses maybe they are still the way to go, but I think going forward the answer is going to be assistant based, over wifi, probably based on a related family of products (mostly Hue, mostly Nest etc), maybe with something like openHab for the more technically minded. Maybe I'm getting too far ahead of myself there, but I can't see kids who are growing up with assistants wanting to wire up their houses with full house control systems when they are get 80/90% of that from linking off the shelf products to their assistant of choice.

Phibsboro · 23-01-2019 1:44am

bk wrote: »

Well the way house wiring normally works it is:

Fusebox -> Light switch -> light

Even if you take the switch out, you'd still have the cables to the light fixture in much the same place, passing where the light switch would otherwise be.

That seems counter intuitive. I know feck all about wiring but surely a lighting circuit is wired up into the ceiling from the consumer unit and stays in the ceiling to feed all the lights on that loop. Switches are taken downward off that circuit as required. You can see that kind of arrangement in this instruction video....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-BpmdWNyZM

Of course what that video makes very clear is that my idea of gathering all the switches to one location near the CU isn't realistic, bar running the switch cables back to that location which complicates things instead of simplifying them. So the switch is right back at the CU fuse block, one per circuit. Assuming the switch is only needed to pair new bulbs, I could live with that.

bk wrote: »

Having said that, I don't think I'd be without the light switch. I don't think Hue or any smart light switch are reliable enough. I'd say I end up having to use the physical switch at least once a week to toggle the light on because the motion sensor didn't work for some reason. Usually switching off and on again fixes it. But I think it would be a pain to have to go to the fuse box each time to toggle the switch to fix it.

The motion sensors are certainly a tad erratic, especially since I moved to the 3 time segment lab recipe for them. But I have never needed to physically turn off the lights to get back to normal - I just turn them on/off via a Hue switch and everything is back to normal. In fact the physical electrical switch in the bathroom is the main gremlin in the whole system, as people instinctively turn off the light no matter how many times they are asked not to which means the motion sensor wouldn't work again until the switch is turned back on. If this switch was a passive zigbee switch everything would be fine and the motion sensor would correctly switch the light back on next time. Broadly speaking a wifi based lighting system doesn't want easily accessible physical electrical switches, people who don't understand the set up tend to turn them off. So why wire them in at all?

bk · 23-01-2019 12:10pm

Phibsboro wrote: »

That seems counter intuitive. I know feck all about wiring but surely a lighting circuit is wired up into the ceiling from the consumer unit and stays in the ceiling to feed all the lights on that loop. Switches are taken downward off that circuit as required. You can see that kind of arrangement in this instruction video....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-BpmdWNyZM

So what you are describing here is the more old fashioned way of wiring lights, where you don't have Neutral at the light switch. The more modern way to do it that you tend to see in new homes here now (and the norm in mainland Europe) is to have the cables go to the switch first and then up to the light fittings.

This is a great video that describes very well how lights and switches are wired, first the old way, but if you jump to 16 minutes you'll see the more modern manner with Neurtal at the switch that I'm recommending:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnpV781c6Sw

Of course, I'm not suggesting you do any of this yourself, the above video is just for education. Of course discuss this with your electrician and get them to do it.

Phibsboro wrote: »

In fact the physical electrical switch in the bathroom is the main gremlin in the whole system, as people instinctively turn off the light no matter how many times they are asked not to which means the motion sensor wouldn't work again until the switch is turned back on.

I just cover the light switches with covers, stops people from using them, but still their in an emergency.

Personally I don't feel it is reliable enough yet to fully get rid of the physical switch. But of course if you feel differently, that is fine.

One thing to keep in mind, what if you ever decide to sell the house? Potential buyers might be put off by the lack of switches and not want to have to invest in their own smart system.

bk · 23-01-2019 12:42pm

IMPORTANT: I'm not an electrician, always get professional advice on wiring, etc.

So thinking about it a bit, here is what the ideal way to wire up a new home is:

Consumer Unit -- Light Switch 1 -- Lights 1
                    |
                 Light Switch 2 -- Lights 2
                    |
                 Light Switch 2 -- Lights 3

With the Neutral at each switch. If you don't want a switch, that is fine, you can use a junction box instead of a switch so that they are all wired on permanently, then either plaster over the junction box * or cover it with a blank plate.

* I'm not sure that would be within code, junction boxes aren't usually supposed to be covered over, your electrician should know.

You could possibly do the idea of the light switches at the CU, but it would require wiring the lights in a star topology rather then a looped one, as in:

CU -> Light Switch 1 -> Light 1
CU -> Light Switch 2 -> Light 2

Obviously that would require a lot more cabling and thus cost. Possible, but I'm not sure it would be worth it.

wexfordman2 · 23-01-2019 1:52pm

Phibsboro wrote: »

My gut feel is that those systems are dead.

I disagree, many of them are still emerging and developing, and knx isnt going anywhere :-)

What is happening, is they are becomming much more affordable. I think the arrival of hue and such has made smart lighting a product that is much more in demand, and that demand will drive other types of solutions also. Anyone building a new house will look at the options, and wireless for new builds is a fallback.

Phibsboro wrote: »

They are the way home automation was done 20 years ago, before the current smart home wave of products arrived.

God, I couldnt disagree more. KNX/CBUS have been around for 20 years or more, but loxone for example is an emerging/recent product, but build around a similar wiring concept as the rest of them.

Phibsboro wrote: »

They are expensive, usually require professional installation and even professional set up.

Appro 40 euro hardware cost per light circuit, a 3 bed semi could be done for a hardware cost of approx 1k (back of packet of fags calculation here). KNX, yes, more expensive and professional install, but many other sytsems are very affordable very stable, and an easy install (in fact even easier that standard 220v wiring).

Phibsboro wrote: »

For large, luxury houses maybe they are still the way to go,

For all types of houses. Larger installs may go for KNX etc, but there are equally competent and reliable systems available for small to large houses, and all budgets.

Phibsboro wrote: »

but I think going forward the answer is going to be assistant based,

I agree, all should and can be integrated to a voice assistant.

Phibsboro wrote: »

over wifi,

God no, I would never build a house that depended on wifi for my lights to function. Single point of failure for a start, and always wired, first preference.

Phibsboro wrote: »

probably based on a related family of products (mostly Hue, mostly Nest etc),

Hue, is either a refit solution, or a complimentary solution to a new build (lamps, led strips perhaps etc).

Phibsboro · 23-01-2019 6:38pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

God no, I would never build a house that depended on wifi for my lights to function. Single point of failure for a start, and always wired, first preference.

I think that is the crux of the issue. The title of this thread is Future Proof Renovation for IoT - almost all of those wired full house systems predate the emergence of IoT as a concept, some predate the internet itself. The future of IoT is absolutely wireless, almost by definition. Wireless is a single point of failure in the same way as a wired network control system is - if your router goes, so does your control.

It almost seems like we are suggesting renovating for legacy coverage rather than the future. Having said that - will I actually have the balls to run a simple in-ceiling loop for all lights, rather than a full neutral to the switch layout shown by BK, even if I never intend to use anything other than Wifi lighting? I'm not sure

I suspect my sparky will have a canary for a start

wexfordman2 · 23-01-2019 8:26pm

Phibsboro wrote: »

I think that is the crux of the issue. The title of this thread is Future Proof Renovation for IoT - almost all of those wired full house systems predate the emergence of IoT as a concept, some predate the internet itself. The future of IoT is absolutely wireless, almost by definition. Wireless is a single point of failure in the same way as a wired network control system is - if your router goes, so does your control.

It almost seems like we are suggesting renovating for legacy coverage rather than the future. Having said that - will I actually have the balls to run a simple in-ceiling loop for all lights, rather than a full neutral to the switch layout shown by BK, even if I never intend to use anything other than Wifi lighting? I'm not sure I suspect my sparky will have a canary for a start

Again, you are making huge assumptions and generalisations.

Wired solutuins do not have a single point of failure. For example, there is not one item in my home (which has a velbus system) that is a single point of failure. Not one, it is.virtually impossible to make it fail. Point me to a Phillips hue with the same resilience.

You are also switching from.ine argument to the next without addressing a topic. Claiming.the likes of knx for example is too pricey and only used for high end systems ignores the multiple systems that exist that are as functional as.knx, but cheaper than hue, and, this is the imortant bit ...100% reliable.

I had an instance last week where hue would not control two lamo bulbs, no matter what I did. I could only power them off manually, and power them on manually. It resolved itself eventually.

Now, if you think I would even dream of installing a hue only.topology into a new house and removing all wired switiching...not a hope in hell.

I have 62 lights in my house working via a wired system, fornthe last ten years.

I also have 7 hue lights in installed about 12 months.

I have had multiple failures of the 7 hue lights, (ie intermittent failures ) in that 12 months.

I have had 0 failures of the other 62 hard wired smart , iot, voice controlled lights over the last 10 years.

Hue is great, but I ain't wiring a house for it. Retrofit, lamps and mood lighting, brilliant product yes, while house lighting system, no.

Phibsboro · 23-01-2019 8:48pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Again, you are making huge assumptions and generalisations.

Wired solutuins do not have a single point of failure. For example, there is not one item in my home (which has a velbus system) that is a single point of failure. Not one, it is.virtually impossible to make it fail. Point me to a Phillips hue with the same resilience.

You are also switching from.ine argument to the next without addressing a topic. Claiming.the likes of knx for example is too pricey and only used for high end systems ignores the multiple systems that exist that are as functional as.knx, but cheaper than hue, and, this is the imortant bit ...100% reliable.

I had an instance last week where hue would not control two lamo bulbs, no matter what I did. I could only power them off manually, and power them on manually. It resolved itself eventually.

Now, if you think I would even dream of installing a hue only.topology into a new house and removing all wired switiching...not a hope in hell.

I have 62 lights in my house working via a wired system, fornthe last ten years.

I also have 7 hue lights in installed about 12 months.

I have had multiple failures of the 7 hue lights, (ie intermittent failures ) in that 12 months.

I have had 0 failures of the other 62 hard wired smart , iot, voice controlled lights over the last 10 years.

Hue is great, but I ain't wiring a house for it. Retrofit, lamps and mood lighting, brilliant product yes, while house lighting system, no.

I think I may have misunderstood what you meant by single point of failure.

My experience with Hue has been the opposite of yours - they just work, and I certainly haven't had any fail, in the sense of breaking.

It is an interesting time in home automation. Previously it was the preserve of whole-house, single provider, wired solutions. But the era of assistants has given a taste of HA to a whole new generation. I absolutely agree that if I was doing a renovation 10 years ago I'd probably have wired the ar*e off it and put in a proprietary, does everything, system (and in fact I looked at doing exactly that but it was beyond my budget then). Nowadays, I'm not convinced that is the future. I must ask Google Home to set a reminder to post on here in another 10 years time and see how it all worked out

Calibos · 23-01-2019 9:23pm

Phibsboro wrote: »

I think I may have misunderstood what you meant by single point of failure.

My experience with Hue has been the opposite of yours - they just work, and I certainly haven't had any fail, in the sense of breaking.

It is an interesting time in home automation. Previously it was the preserve of whole-house, single provider, wired solutions. But the era of assistants has given a taste of HA to a whole new generation. I absolutely agree that if I was doing a renovation 10 years ago I'd probably have wired the ar*e off it and put in a proprietary, does everything, system (and in fact I looked at doing exactly that but it was beyond my budget then). Nowadays, I'm not convinced that is the future. I must ask Google Home to set a reminder to post on here in another 10 years time and see how it all worked out

I've a similar history and opinion as your goodself. Gutted a Victorian house and renovated it in 2010 and at the time I was advised to not just run Cat6 but to run multiple Cat6 lines to every single power socket, light switch and light fitting in the entire house to cover any and all eventualities. Would have cost a fortune. Instead I ran 2x Cat5e and 2x CT100 Coax to a single point in every room in the house. Thats it. I reasoned that by the time Smart Home tech was worthwhile, it'd all be over WIFI anyway because it would simply have to be otherwise the 99.9999% of people who didn't have every lightswitch wired with Cat 6 couldn't buy or use the products so there would be no incentive to develop them in the first place if wired was a prerequisite. ie. Why would I spend all that extra dosh to future proof my house for existing limited proprietary smarthome tech that I had no interest in yet when I knew that in time Smart Home tech would inevitably advance to a point of real usefulness and was virtually guaranteed to run over WIFI otherwise no one could buy it.

Even my decision to go with Cat5e instead of Cat6 seems like it was a worthwhile money/hassle saver in hindsight. Cat5e in a domestic setting/cable run distances can run at a major chunk of 10gigabit speeds apparently and WIFI6 is just around the corner

wexfordman2 · 23-01-2019 10:13pm

Phibsboro wrote: »

I think I may have misunderstood what you meant by single point of failure.

My experience with Hue has been the opposite of yours - they just work, and I certainly haven't had any fail, in the sense of breaking.

It is an interesting time in home automation. Previously it was the preserve of whole-house, single provider, wired solutions. But the era of assistants has given a taste of HA to a whole new generation. I absolutely agree that if I was doing a renovation 10 years ago I'd probably have wired the ar*e off it and put in a proprietary, does everything, system (and in fact I looked at doing exactly that but it was beyond my budget then). Nowadays, I'm not convinced that is the future. I must ask Google Home to set a reminder to post on here in another 10 years time and see how it all worked out

Single point of failure...wire your house to work exclusively with hue, then turn off.your hue bridge and see how you get on.

Wire a system such as velbus, and rip out any.module and your system keeps working, there is no single piece of hardware that your lighting system relies in to remain functional .

Cost: 7 led gu10 led dimmable lights;plus Phillips switch cost you say 230 euro Phillips hue.

Velbus relay controlling 7 gu10 led bulbs , 40 euro, bulbs at 10 euro a head plus plus momentary light switch at 10 euro, 120 euro....nearly half the price.

wexfordman2 · 23-01-2019 10:23pm

Calibos wrote: »

I've a similar history and opinion as your goodself. Gutted a Victorian house and renovated it in 2010 and at the time I was advised to not just run Cat6 but to run multiple Cat6 lines to every single power socket, light switch and light fitting in the entire house to cover any and all eventualities. Would have cost a fortune. Instead I ran 2x Cat5e and 2x CT100 Coax to a single point in every room in the house. Thats it. I reasoned that by the time Smart Home tech was worthwhile, it'd all be over WIFI anyway because it would simply have to be otherwise the 99.9999% of people who didn't have every lightswitch wired with Cat 6 couldn't buy or use the products so there would be no incentive to develop them in the first place if wired was a prerequisite. ie. Why would I spend all that extra dosh to future proof my house for existing limited proprietary smarthome tech that I had no interest in yet when I knew that in time Smart Home tech would inevitably advance to a point of real usefulness and was virtually guaranteed to run over WIFI otherwise no one could buy it.

Even my decision to go with Cat5e instead of Cat6 seems like it was a worthwhile money/hassle saver in hindsight. Cat5e in a domestic setting/cable run distances can run at a major chunk of 10gigabit speeds apparently and WIFI6 is just around the corner

I would have gone cat6 myself, but whoever advised you to wire cat cable.to power sockets was a bit over keen, I certainly.wouodnt do it.

Cat cable to light switches absolutely, but not to individual light fitting.

2 x CT cable to every TV point, also overkill. 1 will suffice except for main/hub TV point where I would have gone for 4.

Wifi, again, portable.devices, audio streaming are fine, fixed devices, always wired. Wifiight bulbs :-) i have, I think abiut 70 light bulbs, I dint want to have these reliant on my.router, in addition to the 30 odd devices that are currently.on it.

Imagine wifi light bulbs if your router fails.

bk · 24-01-2019 11:29am

It is interesting that some people have experienced some reliability issues, while others haven't.

Personally I think Hue is great, but I've definitely experienced the odd hiccup, which is why I'm glad I have switches.

The thing to keep in mind is that Hue uses 2.4GHz wireless, a very noisy frequency with a lot going on in it. Wifi, DECT phones, baby monitors, even microwaves operate at that frequency.

That is why some people might have perfect reliability, while others experience issues, because everyones local wireless environment is different and some might experience more interference then others and thus issues. It can even change over time, getting better or worse, though with the proliferation of wifi and smart wireless devices, I'd expect it to get noisier.

Wireless tech has come on in leaps and bounds and reliability has definitely improved. But, if you can afford it, wired will always be more reliable. There really is no doubt about that.

Where I can, I go wired. But I'm also not afraid to use wireless where it is easier/cheaper. But I definitely know it is a trade off versus reliability.

THE ALM · 24-01-2019 12:49pm

Always find this type of discussion very interesting and indeed this whole Home Automation forum as I have learned and discovered a lot over the months/years reading it.

I currently run Hue, Hive, Smartthings, Google Assistant, Kasa, Harmony, Home Assistant, Webcore, Node Red, Stringify, IFTTT, Unifi AP, Aqara and Reolink (I think that is it). A lot of these are interlinked to get the functionality that I require and it takes a bit of time and patience and a fair bit of trial an error to get it working as this would not be my area of expertise and I am only really scratching the surface.

Most of the functions in the house are now automatic and triggered through various sensors whether they be a thermostat, motion, humidity or light sensor and all the sensors connect over some wireless protocol like z-ware, zigbee etc. House is a standard bungalow built is 2006 and wired accordingly.

Now, this is all very well and good, but not everybody has the time or interest in doing this and it isn't for the average consumer and problems do crop up. If I was to drop dead in the morning my better half would not know where to start. She has the various apps, hue, reolink, harmony on her phone and has no problems using them but the likes of webcore, node red, stringify, needed for all the automation, just isn't going to happen as she doesn't have the same interest as I do so if things started not working frustration would quickly kick in and it wouldn't be long before a normal light switch would be greatly welcomed.

With this in mind it has got me thinking about simplifying the whole process as using all these systems really isn't feasible for the average user and I am looking at a one wired solution going back to one central location.

Looking at the systems out there and after a lot of research, I have decided to go with Loxone with DMX and 1-Wire which would probably cover 90%+ of our use case. Changing light switches to retractive wired with cat cable, using a DMX for lighting and relays should cover most bases and allow for automation or the use of switches and keep everything local without needing to depend on cloud services. If we need to expand then this should be doable with the options in using Loxone.

I have started pulling together some of the items needed and will build a test rig to see how it goes. Being in a bungalow it is easier than most to pull cable and get an electrician to check everything before connecting up a live environment.

Knowing what I know now and looking at all the various systems we currently use we would have bought and paid for the Loxone setup. Some of these can be integrated into Loxone so they still have a use but it will greatly simplify things.

lucast2007us · 24-01-2019 1:38pm

I have a few hue bulbs already but is there any colour changing hue bulb for say the living room?

All I can find is different white options

THE ALM · 24-01-2019 1:55pm

lucast2007us wrote: »

I have a few hue bulbs already but is there any colour changing hue bulb for say the living room?

All I can find is different white options

Most people buy there colour bulbs, called White and Colour Ambience, available in different type fittings like E27, B22, GU10 so check before you buy. Amazon generally have deals thoughout the year so keep an eye out.

OfflerCrocGod · 24-01-2019 2:02pm

The Loxone videos look amazing but I'm guessing it costs a fortune to retrofit a standard home?

THE ALM · 24-01-2019 2:38pm

OfflerCrocGod wrote: »

The Loxone videos look amazing but I'm guessing it costs a fortune to retrofit a standard home?

That is why I am looking at DMX also as it will keep costs down as it will be a more cost effective way of doing it and being able to do the cabling will also help.

If you do look to keep it all Loxone is does get pricey but there is lots of intergration with the like of DMX, KNX, Modbus etc which can be picked up a reasonable prices as they are well known and used standards.

The likes of Xiaomi can also be used which would be great as I have a few of there sensors set up.

This will be a long term project and I pick up the bits if I see deals on them.

wexfordman2 · 24-01-2019 3:41pm

THE ALM wrote: »

Always find this type of discussion very interesting and indeed this whole Home Automation forum as I have learned and discovered a lot over the months/years reading it.

I currently run Hue, Hive, Smartthings, Google Assistant, Kasa, Harmony, Home Assistant, Webcore, Node Red, Stringify, IFTTT, Unifi AP, Aqara and Reolink (I think that is it). A lot of these are interlinked to get the functionality that I require and it takes a bit of time and patience and a fair bit of trial an error to get it working as this would not be my area of expertise and I am only really scratching the surface.

Most of the functions in the house are now automatic and triggered through various sensors whether they be a thermostat, motion, humidity or light sensor and all the sensors connect over some wireless protocol like z-ware, zigbee etc. House is a standard bungalow built is 2006 and wired accordingly.

Now, this is all very well and good, but not everybody has the time or interest in doing this and it isn't for the average consumer and problems do crop up. If I was to drop dead in the morning my better half would not know where to start. She has the various apps, hue, reolink, harmony on her phone and has no problems using them but the likes of webcore, node red, stringify, needed for all the automation, just isn't going to happen as she doesn't have the same interest as I do so if things started not working frustration would quickly kick in and it wouldn't be long before a normal light switch would be greatly welcomed.

With this in mind it has got me thinking about simplifying the whole process as using all these systems really isn't feasible for the average user and I am looking at a one wired solution going back to one central location.

Looking at the systems out there and after a lot of research, I have decided to go with Loxone with DMX and 1-Wire which would probably cover 90%+ of our use case. Changing light switches to retractive wired with cat cable, using a DMX for lighting and relays should cover most bases and allow for automation or the use of switches and keep everything local without needing to depend on cloud services. If we need to expand then this should be doable with the options in using Loxone.

I have started pulling together some of the items needed and will build a test rig to see how it goes. Being in a bungalow it is easier than most to pull cable and get an electrician to check everything before connecting up a live environment.

Knowing what I know now and looking at all the various systems we currently use we would have bought and paid for the Loxone setup. Some of these can be integrated into Loxone so they still have a use but it will greatly simplify things.

Great post, and you touched on an item that has always been in the back of my head, but I never mentioned, which is, as you said, what happens if I drop dead in the morning.... how will my good wife cope..with the house.

The answer is, she will manage fine, the house will continue to work, and even if all the "smart" functionality dies over time and follows me to the grave, the house will continue to operate as a normal house. If you want to turn on a light, there is a light switch on the wall, that turns the light on, and turns it off again (momentary light switch, with cat5 cable behind it, no 220v present at all).

I think it important that that sort of fallback is there, a smart home, should be smart enough not to stop working if the smarts fail. It should be transparant, as in, you have full manual control of it if you want, and that manual control fuctions seamlessly with the smarts.

On your dmx/loxone, looks like a great system, I did look at loxone and considered it when deploying my system as well, but went another route (similar wiring topology) with velbus. Loxone has expanded very nicely over the last few years, looks like a great system,

On integrating dmx with loxone, I think there is a module/interface to allow you do this, would be really interested to see how you get on and a bit more detail.

I know a guy who built recently using a combination of velbus and DMX interworking, and tied together using Openhabian, might be worth talking to him (he posts here) about his experience for your project.

One of the really interesting bits you can do with the cat5 in the light switch, is that you can actually use it to control philips hue lamps!! So if you have hue bulbs in some lamps, you can have your wall switch operate those, removing the need for people putting in dedicated switched lamp circuits. Its stuff like that the Hue is great for.

THE ALM · 24-01-2019 5:23pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Great post, and you touched on an item that has always been in the back of my head, but I never mentioned, which is, as you said, what happens if I drop dead in the morning.... how will my good wife cope..with the house.

The answer is, she will manage fine, the house will continue to work, and even if all the "smart" functionality dies over time and follows me to the grave, the house will continue to operate as a normal house. If you want to turn on a light, there is a light switch on the wall, that turns the light on, and turns it off again (momentary light switch, with cat5 cable behind it, no 220v present at all).

I think it important that that sort of fallback is there, a smart home, should be smart enough not to stop working if the smarts fail. It should be transparant, as in, you have full manual control of it if you want, and that manual control fuctions seamlessly with the smarts.

On your dmx/loxone, looks like a great system, I did look at loxone and considered it when deploying my system as well, but went another route (similar wiring topology) with velbus. Loxone has expanded very nicely over the last few years, looks like a great system,

On integrating dmx with loxone, I think there is a module/interface to allow you do this, would be really interested to see how you get on and a bit more detail.

I know a guy who built recently using a combination of velbus and DMX interworking, and tied together using Openhabian, might be worth talking to him (he posts here) about his experience for your project.

One of the really interesting bits you can do with the cat5 in the light switch, is that you can actually use it to control philips hue lamps!! So if you have hue bulbs in some lamps, you can have your wall switch operate those, removing the need for people putting in dedicated switched lamp circuits. Its stuff like that the Hue is great for.

As you say, it will continue to work fine but the way we have it setup is not ideal,too many different components.

Loxone do a DMX extension alright so easy to integrate and expand upon. I have a 24v din rail 24ch dmx controller here which I aim to use with some rgb strips so in effect I can run 8 separate light strips from the one controller. Controller cost approx. €60, add in some decent rgb strips and this starts to become very cost effective for lighting.

At the minute our kitchen, dining and living room is open plan. The kitchen and dining room lighting is one circuit using 16 GU10 spot lights, so when you put on one you put on the lot. Currently making some new light fixtures for the kitchen and dining room so that I can split the lighting, fill in the spot light holes (energy saving measure as well, as it is a vaulted ceiling too much energy is wasted through drafts etc) and light the areas independently of each other. All I would need for this would be a couple of 2ch dmx controllers, these could be picked up for a little as €20 plus the cost of materials to make the lights.

For the heating I am looking at adding a DMX Realy board in conjunction with some temp sensors, could use some of the Xiaomi Aqara ones I have already or 1-wire if these don't work out.

The main costs are the Loxone Miniserver, the DMX extension and some good 24v power supplies. DMX controllers can be picked up fairly cheaply from China but need to look out for good quality gear. Keeping an eye out on ebay and various threads to see if I can pick up a miniserver for reasonable money.

Openhabian is interesting as well as they have a loxone binding which would make integrating other systems like voice, sound doable as some of loxone extensions are expensive (the music server for example) and this would be a way around that. Could look at loxberry running on a rpi as well.

Will probably start a separate Loxone thread when I get that far.

Interested in how you are using cat5 and switches for Hue if you have a bit more detail.

wexfordman2 · 24-01-2019 11:41pm

THE ALM wrote: »

As you say, it will continue to work fine but the way we have it setup is not ideal,too many different components.

Loxone do a DMX extension alright so easy to integrate and expand upon. I have a 24v din rail 24ch dmx controller here which I aim to use with some rgb strips so in effect I can run 8 separate light strips from the one controller. Controller cost approx. €60, add in some decent rgb strips and this starts to become very cost effective for lighting.

At the minute our kitchen, dining and living room is open plan. The kitchen and dining room lighting is one circuit using 16 GU10 spot lights, so when you put on one you put on the lot. Currently making some new light fixtures for the kitchen and dining room so that I can split the lighting, fill in the spot light holes (energy saving measure as well, as it is a vaulted ceiling too much energy is wasted through drafts etc) and light the areas independently of each other. All I would need for this would be a couple of 2ch dmx controllers, these could be picked up for a little as €20 plus the cost of materials to make the lights.

For the heating I am looking at adding a DMX Realy board in conjunction with some temp sensors, could use some of the Xiaomi Aqara ones I have already or 1-wire if these don't work out.

The main costs are the Loxone Miniserver, the DMX extension and some good 24v power supplies. DMX controllers can be picked up fairly cheaply from China but need to look out for good quality gear. Keeping an eye out on ebay and various threads to see if I can pick up a miniserver for reasonable money.

Openhabian is interesting as well as they have a loxone binding which would make integrating other systems like voice, sound doable as some of loxone extensions are expensive (the music server for example) and this would be a way around that. Could look at loxberry running on a rpi as well.

Will probably start a separate Loxone thread when I get that far.

Interested in how you are using cat5 and switches for Hue if you have a bit more detail.

Openhabian is what gives me Google assistant access to my velbus system. There is a velbus binding, so once my velbus relays are in openhabian, then Google assistant automatically detects them, the same would apply for your loxone setup.

The great thing about cat5 as inputs at the wall switch, is it is so versatile, 2 way switching is a doddle you just wire two switch inputs in parrallel to a single input. And it's easy to change function of a wall switch as well, completely versatile. I can change the switch outside the bathroom from turning on the bathroom light to say, turning on a hall light instead.

The switch control of hue lights is done through openhab also. My switches are All cat5, sonwith a single cat5 I can have 4 inputs. The inputs are wired to velbus inputs , so they also appear in openhabian.

Openhab has a hue binding, so I can then program logic in openhab that any switch input can trigger any response, including turning on a hue lamp, dimming one, or running a scene.

The other way I can do it is using velbus glass panel touchpanels like these
https://youtu.be/B46fKVPKOyc

These again, are connected via cat5, and can be programmed to control pretty much anything, they also do temp measurement etc, and the screen allows scrolling through to time you 32 different inputs. I mostly have momentary brushed steel wall switches, but as the control wire is cat5, I can easily swap and replace them with hese panels.

Phibsboro · 25-01-2019 1:01am

wexfordman2 wrote: »

The other way I can do it is using velbus glass panel touchpanels like these
https://youtu.be/B46fKVPKOyc

.

That switch with the configurable display had me drooling until I saw the price, gorgeous though!

wexfordman2 · 25-01-2019 10:27am

Phibsboro wrote: »

That switch with the configurable display had me drooling until I saw the price, gorgeous though!

Yeah,

You wouldn't out them in every location, I have only one, the rest of the house is cat5 fed momentary switches.

Might add a few more over time

THE ALM · 25-01-2019 11:38am

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Openhabian is what gives me Google assistant access to my velbus system. There is a velbus binding, so once my velbus relays are in openhabian, then Google assistant automatically detects them, the same would apply for your loxone setup.

The great thing about cat5 as inputs at the wall switch, is it is so versatile, 2 way switching is a doddle you just wire two switch inputs in parrallel to a single input. And it's easy to change function of a wall switch as well, completely versatile. I can change the switch outside the bathroom from turning on the bathroom light to say, turning on a hall light instead.

The switch control of hue lights is done through openhab also. My switches are All cat5, sonwith a single cat5 I can have 4 inputs. The inputs are wired to velbus inputs , so they also appear in openhabian.

Openhab has a hue binding, so I can then program logic in openhab that any switch input can trigger any response, including turning on a hue lamp, dimming one, or running a scene.

The other way I can do it is using velbus glass panel touchpanels like these
https://youtu.be/B46fKVPKOyc

These again, are connected via cat5, and can be programmed to control pretty much anything, they also do temp measurement etc, and the screen allows scrolling through to time you 32 different inputs. I mostly have momentary brushed steel wall switches, but as the control wire is cat5, I can easily swap and replace them with hese panels.

Thanks, that makes since as in using openhab, I could probably get a similar result using Home Assistant. Must have a play around with openhab.

Those touch panels are nice alright, loxone do a couple of different switches but pricey also. Could probably put one or two around the house but would more likely mount a cheap tablet.

wexfordman2 · 25-01-2019 8:15pm

THE ALM wrote: »

Thanks, that makes since as in using openhab, I could probably get a similar result using Home Assistant. Must have a play around with openhab.

Those touch panels are nice alright, loxone do a couple of different switches but pricey also. Could probably put one or two around the house but would more likely mount a cheap tablet.

To be honest, I reckon a few of those types of switches dotted around the house would suffice, althiugh lots would be nice :-)

I find the mimentsry switches suite most of my needs, and as shiwj, with openhab you can pretty much get them to do anything.

The velbus fancy keypad I have, I put it in the kitchen by a patii door, so I can run outside light scenes, and arm the alarm system through it etc.

One by the master bedroom is also very usefully, I have a similar type one next to the bedside locker which runs a few macros, arms the system etc.

andydurnin · 26-01-2019 12:00am

Anyone ever use these: VIGICA 2.1A USB Charger 13A WiFi Wall Socket Smart Switch Outlet Plug. Are they any good?

bk · 26-01-2019 12:22am

andydurnin wrote: »

Anyone ever use these: VIGICA 2.1A USB Charger 13A WiFi Wall Socket Smart Switch Outlet Plug. Are they any good?

Hah! I was looking at those myself, sorry haven't ordered one yet myself, but also interested in anyone else who has.

Phibsboro · 26-01-2019 12:37am

This pic from an amazon review would give me pause for thought...

51ybhs8RO9L._SY88.jpg

These are the one star reviews, all saying it stopped working. A pity as the idea is great.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/VIGICA-Charger-Compatible-Assistant-Required/product-reviews/B07GBQJSHK/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star&reviewerType=all_reviews#reviews-filter-bar

TheBigGreen · 08-02-2019 9:54am

Is a 35mm back box ok for when I want to go for smart switches in the future? Should they be 47mm? Thanks

Future proof renovation for IoT

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