Great video on the Gender pay gap

iptba · 16-07-2018 1:38pm

iptba wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jul/14/im-on-14500-a-year-and-its-a-knife-edge-lifestyle

It sounds like this woman doesn't have much to live on. But I'm not sure what can be extrapolated from that about gender and pay: the article doesn't seem to say anything regarding it anyway. She simply does a job that is not well paid: the UK isn't a communist state so some jobs are better paid than others. She has a degree in fine art which is probably not the best degree to do if you want a well-paying job.

I note she hopes to retire at 55. This facility would not be available in many private sector jobs. Some people might be willing to sacrifice some take-home pay for perks like this, others might not.

iptba · 06-08-2018 1:37pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/media-and-marketing/women-lawyers-highlight-gender-pay-gap-at-financial-firms-1.3587246

Women lawyers highlight gender pay gap at financial firms
More than half of female lawyers surveyed support gender quotas to combat inequality

---

The study was carried out by corporate law firm Mason Hayes & Curran. It found that about half of the female lawyers surveyed had moved to in-house roles for a better work-life balance.

[..]

The research suggests that the burden of childcare and running the home is falling “for the most part” on the shoulders of women, and this is hindering their route to senior roles.

It sounds like the long hours that may be currently required in some jobs may be a big factor rather than discrimination per se.

iptba · 01-09-2018 2:11am

I just have the Saorview selection of TV stations for the last while and have ended up watching "Can't pay? We'll take it away" a number of times. It follows bailiffs/High Court enforcement officers doing their work.

On the programme tonight a bailiff was assaulted and had his life threatened by a guy who said he'd be willing to go back to prison to get at him. All the bailiffs I have seen were male. The job probably requires minimal training, but I imagine they are not on the minimum wage. It's an unpleasant job involving confrontation and more.

An example of a job where a man might be willing to take on a dangerous or unpleasant job to earn more money. These factors don't seem to be generally factored into the gender pay comparison from what I have seen.

01-09-2018 8:50am

It's often mentioned in the context of mining jobs

01-09-2018 9:22am

iptba wrote: »

An example of a job where a man might be willing to take on a dangerous or unpleasant job to earn more money. These factors don't seem to be generally factored into the gender pay comparison from what I have seen.

There's a cultural thing with that though. I know from working in Credit Control & liquidations in Oz, that many court bailiffs can be female, and in fact, you'll see a greater amount of women in traditionally masculine jobs. Not so much with mining, which is understandable considering the remoteness and having to deal with the population differences within mining camps.

But, yes, generally speaking there are heaps of jobs which women have zero interest in working, and even when they do, it's a very clear minority.

Just look at combat positions in the military.. there are women in these positions, but the numbers pale in comparison to the numbers in administration, or office roles. Think how long ago is GI Jane... :rolleyes: and yet, the numbers haven't even reached close to parity. (I've heard all the excuses) but consider any other area where women wanted to work... do you think the excuses would be allowed then?

iptba · 10-10-2018 4:51pm

One thing I would be interested in seeing is the time males and females spend doing background reading during their “free time”. For example, quite a lot of guys I know spend time reading business sections of newspapers, watching business news on TV, etc. Such research wouldn’t tend to get included when calculating how many hours people work.

professore · 16-10-2018 5:17pm

Appledreams15 wrote: »

o1s1n wrote: »

Just because there are some stories about people being paid less doesn't mean there's a global gender pay gap. It's a massive leap to infer one from the other.

Did you watch the video in the OP?

yes but how can you say that the older woman's story is not relavent to today, when gender pay gap stories are very often reported in today's media. It is a current problem.

Martina Navratalova added to the report on the BBC discrimination case, saying that she was paid 15,000 in comparison to John McEnroe's 150,000 for the same commentary gigs, that she was lied to and told she was receiving the same as her male costars.

Of course it exists.
It would be like there being hundreds of incidents of racism documented in the media, and me saying it doesn't exist.

All these gender discrimination incidents have been reported, people have launched investigations , and they have all been documented in the media.

All this proves is the men had better agents than she had.

professore · 16-10-2018 5:27pm

My daughter is very talented at art. She is also talented at science. She is doing a STEM degree because she is smart enough to know that her chances of making a decent living are far higher with a STEM degree than with a fine arts degree. So far she has no problems and has secured an industrial placement this year with ease. It seems there are lots of young women her age who can't work this out, and want to cry "discrimination" at every opportunity.

Conversely there are loads of young men who sit at home playing video games doing nothing with their lives, so much so that the last survey was done in ireland showed that for people under 30, women earn on average 18% MORE than men. This was reported as "-18% less" in the media.

This is not to say there is NO discrimination; but it is far less than reported.
And if you want more money, male or female, ask for it - and if you don't get it, leave. If you can't leave because no one else wants to employ you, that tells you all you need to know about your true economic value.

iptba · 25-10-2018 9:42pm

(UK)

Gender pay gap at lowest level yet, says ONS

The gender pay gap has fallen to its lowest level yet, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) has reported.

In the year to April 2018, the gap for full-time workers was 8.6% - down from 9.1% in the previous year.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45977390

The ONS said the pay gap for those under the age of 39 was now insignificant

iptba · 05-11-2018 7:06pm

Barbara McCarthy: 'Gender pay-gap myth ignores personal choice of women'

One of the best studies on the wage gap was released in 2009 by the US Department of Labour. It examined more than 50 peer- reviewed papers and concluded the 23pc US wage gap "may be almost entirely the result of individual choices being made by both male and female workers".

In the UK, women in their 20s have reversed the gender pay gap. Figures compiled by the Press Association show that, between the ages of 22 and 29, a woman will earn €1,265 more per annum than her male counterpart. Again, it appears to grow after women traditionally start having children. So our biological make-up decides many of us don't want to work long hours, on oil rigs, in coal mines or as CEOs.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/barbara-mccarthy-gender-paygap-myth-ignores-personal-choice-of-women-37492078.html

iptba · 10-11-2018 3:52am

Just heard on the news of Absolute Radio nineties (UK) that it was claimed that the gender pay comparison, which says women will work for free for the rest of the year, is based on a like-for-like comparison which I very much doubt.

Aside: The news only had 4 or 5 items. The next item was about a campaign to get more women into the UK military police. There are so many campaigns these days for women, or at least the media highlights a lot of such campaigns.

iptba · 08-12-2018 6:47pm

https://twitter.com/theprogressives/status/1064538359429775360?s=11

This ad appeared in my Twitter timeline today. I very much doubt it is a like-for-like comparison.

S&D Group
@TheProgressives

The Socialists and Democrats Group in the European Parliament works for social justice & equality for all EU citizens.
Europe
socialistsanddemocrats.eu

Over the last year, I have had a number of different ads from them in my Twitter timeline. Most or all were about gender.

Defunkd · 10-01-2019 3:11pm

A Harvard study "Why do women earn less than men?" (Bolotny et Emanuel) - released before Christmas - has found that a gender pay gap exists but is entirely due to work choices of men and women and not because of institutional bias/sexism.
Really interesting study.

I don't know how to add links from my phone but, unsurprisingly, there is no MSM outlet carrying the story. I looked at Harvard Magazine and going by their articles, i doubt the paper will get front-page coverage.

The Foundation for Economic Education (fee.org) have it posted under Economics Dec 10 and the other websites...i've never heard of before.

iptba · 10-01-2019 3:18pm

Defunkd wrote: »

A Harvard study "Why do women earn less than men?" (Bolotny et Emanuel) - released before Christmas - has found that a gender pay gap exists but is entirely due to work choices of men and women and not because of institutional bias/sexism.
Really interesting study.

I don't know how to add links from my phone but, unsurprisingly, there is no MSM outlet carrying the story. I looked at Harvard Magazine and going by their articles, i doubt the paper will get front-page coverage.

The Foundation for Economic Education (fee.org) have it posted under Economics Dec 10 and the other websites...i've never heard of before.

https://fee.org/articles/harvard-study-gender-pay-gap-explained-entirely-by-work-choices-of-men-and-women/

NIMAN · 19-01-2019 1:53am

I take all this on board, the initial video and people not doing the same jobs etc.

But as an example, what about Brian Dobson and Sharon Ní Bheoláin when they co-hosted the 6.1 news? Dobbo was on much more money.

Or the BBC foreign editor who quit cos her male counterparts were earning 50% more?

Surely these are examples that are illegal? Men and women doing the same jobs and getting paid differently is meant to be illegal, is it not?

suicide_circus · 19-01-2019 10:29am

NIMAN wrote: »

I take all this on board, the initial video and people not doing the same jobs etc.

But as an example, what about Brian Dobson and Sharon Nheol when they co-hosted the 6.1 news? Dobbo was on much more money.

Or the BBC foreign editor who quit cos her male counterparts were earning 50% more?

Surely these are examples that are illegal? Men and women doing the same jobs and getting paid differently is meant to be illegal, is it not?

Dobson was working as a pirate radio news presenter in 1981, when Sharon was 10.

NIMAN · 19-01-2019 9:16pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

Dobson was working as a pirate radio news presenter in 1981, when Sharon was 10.

Sorry, no idea what that means.

They were both doing the same job at the same time on RTE main news, so technically there was a gender pay gap.

source · 20-01-2019 9:04am

NIMAN wrote: »

Sorry, no idea what that means.

They were both doing the same job at the same time on RTE main news, so technically there was a gender pay gap.

The length of time doing the job also plays a factor in pay. For example, Gardai, let's say one on the job 10 years and one on the job 3 years. Both will be earning vasty different amounts for doing the same job, as one will be further along the payscale for the job, so more experienced.

The other poster was pointing out that Brian Dobson would be earning more as he had been doing the job for considerably longer. Basically, he's paid more because he had far far far more experience.

Eric Cartman · 20-01-2019 8:41pm

There is no document or study that ever seems to conclude that theres any gap outside a 1% margin of error for childless professionals who stuck with one career path. The pay gap year for year of experience in the same category only seems to be impacted by the presence of children or where women have switched careers at some point, men tend to be much more likely to stay in the same line of work and build up , more habitual creatures.

NIMAN · 21-01-2019 5:01pm

source wrote: »

The length of time doing the job also plays a factor in pay. For example, Gardai, let's say one on the job 10 years and one on the job 3 years. Both will be earning vasty different amounts for doing the same job, as one will be further along the payscale for the job, so more experienced.

The other poster was pointing out that Brian Dobson would be earning more as he had been doing the job for considerably longer. Basically, he's paid more because he had far far far more experience.

I understand that, and indeed it's a gap I would argue for in my own line of work. We have had occasions where someone doing the same job as me has enquired as to why people in 10 years longer are earning more to do exactly the same job.

I too would have said that I have 10 yrs more experience, 10 yr worth of annual assessments or appraisals etc and as such should be on more.

But technically, there is a gap for 2 people doing the same job.

AlmightyCushion · 21-01-2019 5:08pm

NIMAN wrote: »

I understand that, and indeed it's a gap I would argue for in my own line of work. We have had occasions where someone doing the same job as me has enquired as to why people in 10 years longer are earning more to do exactly the same job.

I too would have said that I have 10 yrs more experience, 10 yr worth of annual assessments or appraisals etc and as such should be on more.

But technically, there is a gap for 2 people doing the same job.

There is a gap but it's not because of gender, it'd because of their experience levels. It's not illegal to discriminate on grounds of experience.

Defunkd · 21-01-2019 7:44pm

NIMAN wrote: »

But technically, there is a gap for 2 people doing the same job.

And Sharon earns significantly more than the 'new' female anchors who do the same job.
None of the anchors' wages are determined by gender; if it were, RTE - like every other company - would hire more women because 'women get paid less than men for the same work'.

gizmo555 · 22-01-2019 11:55am

Defunkd wrote: »

And Sharon earns significantly more than the 'new' female anchors who do the same job.
None of the anchors' wages are determined by gender; if it were, RTE - like every other company - would hire more women because 'women get paid less than men for the same work'.

Well, this is the thing. They're not doing the same job. And when Bryan was there, Sharon didn't do the same job as him - he did all the interviews.

Similar sort of outrage in this nonsensical article from the Guardian last month: "A man I manage earns £20k more than me and I can't discuss it publicly." The anonymous woman author claims she's being gender discriminated against and victimised because she's on a lower salary than a man she manages. But she gives the explanations why her salary's lower in her own article, while entirely missing the points:

My desk neighbour is undeniably excellent at his job. He’s an ambitious and diligent employee with admittedly a few more years of experience than me. He’s a leader in his field, but when hired, I was deemed senior enough – amply mature, responsible and talented – to commission him, edit him and perform all the other far more mundane tasks of management.

In my work in the IT profession, I was very often on much higher pay than my line managers (male & female!), because there were far fewer people available with my skills than "mundane" management skills. And that's why this writer is on a lower salary too. It's not because of her gender, it's because she doesn't have the combination of rarer skills and greater experience that her colleague has, and she's doing a completely different job.

NIMAN · 23-01-2019 1:04am

How common would it be that am employee would be on more money than their manager?

Find that strange.

gizmo555 · 23-01-2019 8:16am

NIMAN wrote: »

How common would it be that am employee would be on more money than their manager?

Find that strange.

As I said, in my personal experience in IT, not at all unusual. My managers would have been well aware of my pay and didn't bat any eyelid about it.

The point is, we were doing different jobs. Likewise, the Guardian author's presumption that she's entitled to at least the same salary as the persons she manages is fallacious. It's simply supply & demand.

JMNolan · 23-01-2019 8:25am

NIMAN wrote: »

How common would it be that am employee would be on more money than their manager?

Find that strange.

Common enough, I've worked in a good few American tech companies and at some point the technical track and managerial track diverge. The rockstar engineers get well looked after and can easily be earning more than their manager

23-01-2019 3:17pm

NIMAN wrote: »

How common would it be that am employee would be on more money than their manager?

Find that strange.

I've come across a fair few developers that become managers in attempts to move up the chain just to find they hate it and actually get paid more by being a developer/lead/architect

H3llR4iser · 23-01-2019 5:27pm

NIMAN wrote: »

How common would it be that am employee would be on more money than their manager?

Find that strange.

Not very common at all even in IT, in my experience - wherever I worked, engineering roles came with an actual glass ceiling; a very very very senior tech lead could get up to 65/70k, but that was it. If they wanted more, the only way was to move into more administrative roles.

However, keep in mind that even if I worked for a couple of big American tech companies, their offices here were managed more or less like financial / customer care / services companies, having engineering departments was an afterthought; I can see how in the likes of Google, Amzon or Facebook the concept of the "superstar engineers" earning more than their managers is a real thing; Makes sense, a bit like Ronaldo earning more than his team's manager...

iptba · 22-02-2019 4:16pm

Rachel Dugan: 'Single women at the back of the queue'
https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/rachel-dugan-single-women-at-the-back-of-the-queue-37841628.html

You tend to see the same faces again and again when house-hunting. During our search, it was a mixture of singles, couples or those with young families. But last weekend it was all women, mainly viewing alone. I said as much to my friend. "Yeah, they're all like me: single women in their 30s. Rarely couples and never single blokes."

"Where are the single men?" I asked.

"At the higher end of the payscale," she deadpanned, before sighing loudly.

It was at that moment I offered to take her out again. Like I said, house-hunting can be fun, but definitely not if you're a single woman in your 30s.

Figures from the OECD show that in Ireland the Gender Pay Gap for women with no children is -17%
https://www.morganmckinley.ie/article/ireland-and-gender-pay-gap

i.e. women with no children earn 17% more.

If men have more money, it could be to do would other issues e.g. saving more.

Defunkd · 23-02-2019 12:15am

iptba wrote: »

i.e. women with no children earn 17% more.

If men have more money, it could be to do would other issues e.g. saving more.

"At the higher end of the payscale" she deadpanned, before sighing loudly.

That is a made-up quote if ever i heard one. Like those people who tweet something their 5 year old child/relative supposedly said or a FB story that ends with everyone on the bus cheering after the poster stood up against an a$$hole.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 26-02-2019 3:52pm

gizmo555 wrote: »

As I said, in my personal experience in IT, not at all unusual. My managers would have been well aware of my pay and didn't bat any eyelid about it.

The point is, we were doing different jobs. Likewise, the Guardian author's presumption that she's entitled to at least the same salary as the persons she manages is fallacious. It's simply supply & demand.

It would be like a soccer manager crying that he's not paid the same as his star players.

The amount of trouble and strife being caused in business at the moment by grief merchants like this. You'd wonder is it willful ignorance on display or actual stupidity.

27-02-2019 11:39am

If the single men are earning more (despite stats showing the opposite) then surely they'd be over-represented among house-hunters?

27-02-2019 11:41am

Deleted User wrote: »

If the single men are earning more (despite stats showing the opposite) then surely they'd be over-represented among house-hunters?

I think the author was implying that they are buying more expensive houses

27-02-2019 11:42am

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the author was implying that they are buying more expensive houses

Ah yes, of course. More expensive houses than the couples and families are. :rolleyes: Twaddle altogether.

Defunkd · 04-03-2019 11:48pm

"Google moves to address wage equity, and finds it's underpaying many men"-
New York Times today.

"SAN FRANCISCO — When Google conducted a study recently to determine whether the company was underpaying women and members of minority groups, it found that more men than women were receiving less money for doing similar work.

The surprising conclusion to the latest version of the annual study contrasted sharply with the experience of women working in Silicon Valley and in many other industries.

In response to the finding, Google gave $9.7 million in additional compensation to 10,677 employees for this year. Men account for about 69 percent of the company’s work force, but they received a disproportionately higher percentage of the money. The exact number of men who got raises is unclear."

I get a vibe of begrudging reporting here; men have been found to be underpaid but they're trying to make the article about women being underpaid.

KrustyUCC · 05-03-2019 11:41am

I really enjoyed this video

Bout the gender pay gap in Australia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pdnkbs4l_g

py2006 · 05-03-2019 12:44pm

KrustyUCC wrote: »

I really enjoyed this video

Bout the gender pay gap in Australia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pdnkbs4l_g

Great video. Really says it all.

H3llR4iser · 05-03-2019 3:18pm

Defunkd wrote: »

"Google moves to address wage equity, and finds it's underpaying many men"-
New York Times today.

"SAN FRANCISCO — When Google conducted a study recently to determine whether the company was underpaying women and members of minority groups, it found that more men than women were receiving less money for doing similar work.

The surprising conclusion to the latest version of the annual study contrasted sharply with the experience of women working in Silicon Valley and in many other industries.

In response to the finding, Google gave $9.7 million in additional compensation to 10,677 employees for this year. Men account for about 69 percent of the company’s work force, but they received a disproportionately higher percentage of the money. The exact number of men who got raises is unclear."

I get a vibe of begrudging reporting here; men have been found to be underpaid but they're trying to make the article about women being underpaid.

The dishonesty and twisting of words in this one is beyond belief - basically the article is saying "Google found out more men than women were getting underpaid for their job; They moved to address the issue with raises; There were more men than women receiving raises as a consequence of the findings". It all flows perfectly logically, but they managed put the "disproportionately" in there....

Defunkd · 05-03-2019 6:38pm

H3llR4iser wrote: »

The dishonesty and twisting of words in this one is beyond belief - basically the article is saying "Google found out more men than women were getting underpaid for their job; They moved to address the issue with raises; There were more men than women receiving raises as a consequence of the findings". It all flows perfectly logically, but they managed put the "disproportionately" in there....

And the oversight was only discovered because they were checking if women/ethnic minorities were being paid less...

Defunkd · 05-03-2019 6:40pm

KrustyUCC wrote: »

I really enjoyed this video

Bout the gender pay gap in Australia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pdnkbs4l_g

I liked the silences when Team Gender Equality had no answers...5 professionally useless people and not an answer between them.

gizmo555 · 05-03-2019 8:19pm

Defunkd wrote: »

I liked the silences when Team Gender Equality had no answers...5 professionally useless people and not an answer between them.

Or, when pressed, making ridiculous answers like just because a man is working longer hours doesn't mean he's more productive than a woman who works shorter hours.

NIMAN · 06-03-2019 12:40am

KrustyUCC wrote: »

I really enjoyed this video

Bout the gender pay gap in Australia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pdnkbs4l_g

Only got 1 minute in and had to stop, jez I hate the Australian accent.

Edit: put it back on again, and my god those 5 are thick. (is that sexist)

the_pen_turner · 06-03-2019 12:57am

that senater is great.
i wish we had a few people like that here.
faced with pure rubish and stayed calm and on point. totally distroyed their argument

iptba · 06-03-2019 3:28am

KrustyUCC wrote: »

I really enjoyed this video

Bout the gender pay gap in Australia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pdnkbs4l_g

No much gender balance in those representing the "Workplace Gender Equality Agency (i.e. 5 women 0 meant). Something I've noticed before in this sector.

Defunkd · 06-03-2019 9:26pm

iptba wrote: »

No much gender balance in those representing the "Workplace Gender Equality Agency (i.e. 5 women 0 meant). Something I've noticed before in this sector.

For a person who follows gender-related topics, i thought you would know better than to assume their gender for them. Maybe they identify as male or as an ethnic minority?

Defunkd · 06-03-2019 9:40pm

gizmo555 wrote: »

Or, when pressed, making ridiculous answers like just because a man is working longer hours doesn't mean he's more productive than a woman who works shorter hours.

Something tells me that no-one on that panel puts in a 45 hr week in the office.

Just googled a bit...Govt. Agency, Govt. funded, so what, a 37.5 hr week?
The blonde woman in the video is the Director of the Agency. She came across poorly imo.

iptba · 07-03-2019 2:00am

KrustyUCC wrote: »

I really enjoyed this video

Bout the gender pay gap in Australia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pdnkbs4l_g

I don't fully accept the argument that one person's 8 hours is equivalent to another person's 12 hours or whatever it was they said (I can't bring myself to watch it again to see exactly what was said)

In some jobs, there are deadlines/"crises" and "mini crises"/similar and if someone is willing to do extra hours at particular times, this can be very useful. I think the person, male or female, who is willing to stay on in times of need should be rewarded.

I think they think that the person who is willing to do the longer hours is more likely to be the male which could well be true in terms of overall numbers, though certainly not necessarily for every individual.

...Ghost... · 08-03-2019 10:54am

The video which played right after was equally damning. The aggressive blonde jumping in toward the end and correcting her male colleague who tried to damage control her outburst. :eek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DLZa37LJTg

iptba · 09-03-2019 4:18am

...Ghost... wrote: »

The video which played right after was equally damning. The aggressive blonde jumping in toward the end and correcting her male colleague who tried to damage control her outburst. :eek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DLZa37LJTg

The following survey results of theirs:
"One in 5 believes there are circumstances in which woman bears some responsibility for the violent behaviour" were seen as bad, and these attitudes needs to be changed. My impression is that if the genders are reversed quite often people might seek justifications for a woman being abusive towards her male partner.

My guess is in situations like this life can be more complicated than simple black and white answers. A woman could, for example, be engaging in domestic abuse of various kinds that wasn't physical and engaging in coercive control and a man might snap and be physically violent.

py2006 · 09-03-2019 6:04pm

iptba wrote: »

My guess is in situations like this life can be more complicated than simple black and white answers. A woman could, for example, be engaging in domestic abuse of various kinds that wasn't physical and engaging in coercive control and a man might snap and be physically violent.

The woman who set up shelters for women in the UK was on the radio here a few years ago and said a lot of the women came from abusive and or violent relationships. i.e they were as bad.

Great video on the Gender pay gap

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