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Someone wants $20,000 for a story I published

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  • 11-03-2019 11:07pm
    #1
    all_names_gone
    Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭


    This is a strange one indeed and looking for any advice that might help.

    I write stories about the Irish Mob, without getting into it its mainly about Prohibition mobsters, so I wrote a story about the partner of a famous mobster and now the family are demanding $20,000 from me for using her name etc.

    All of the information I used came from public information, books and google searches from other websites, so there is nothing I have written that isnt out there already.

    I am a bit worried about it because I am an amateur writer who does this as a hobby. I attach all of the sources to every story so people can read more. I do also have contact with some authors who have written books on the subject and am using their information, they say this is just an attempt by the family to cash in.

    Can anyone with a legal background give a bit of advice as how to proceed as my initial response is a two word sentence, although some authors have given a nicely worded response to send, which I will along with all of the links to any information that is out there


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    #2
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    Sounds like some scum bags trying to shake you down.

    You don't owe them anything, but you could consult some legal advice.


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    #3
    all_names_gone
    Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭all_names_gone


    And just to say I wouldnt have written anything unless I have researched and researched again and checked. I have written over a hundred stories but this is the first time this has happened. And I stress I wouldnt have written anything unless it was public information

    I live and write from Ireland, after a search I have found the family member to live in Canada.


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    #4
    The Specialist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭The Specialist


    all_names_gone wrote: »
    This is a strange one indeed and looking for any advice that might help.

    I write stories about the Irish Mob, without getting into it its mainly about Prohibition mobsters, so I wrote a story about the partner of a famous mobster and now the family are demanding $20,000 from me for using her name etc.

    All of the information I used came from public information, books and google searches from other websites, so there is nothing I have written that isnt out there already.

    I am a bit worried about it because I am an amateur writer who does this as a hobby. I attach all of the sources to every story so people can read more. I do also have contact with some authors who have written books on the subject and am using their information, they say this is just an attempt by the family to cash in.

    Can anyone with a legal background give a bit of advice as how to proceed as my initial response is a two word sentence, although some authors have given a nicely worded response to send, which I will along with all of the links to any information that is out there

    Dear mobster family,

    Please highlight what section of my article is not already publicly accessible information. Otherwise **** off.

    Sincerely yours,

    All names gone


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    #5
    nuac
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    Mod
    Sorry, we cannot give legal advice here under forum rules.
    Leaving open for general discussion subject to forum rules


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    #6
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,103 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    all_names_gone wrote: »
    . . . I write stories about the Irish Mob, without getting into it its mainly about Prohibition mobsters, so I wrote a story about the partner of a famous mobster and now the family are demanding $20,000 from me for using her name etc.
    Two questions:

    1. If it's her family who are demanding money rather than herself, I take it the lady in question is no longer with us?

    2. They're demanding money "for her name etc." What's the "etc."?


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    #7
    all_names_gone
    Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭all_names_gone


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Two questions:

    1. If it's her family who are demanding money rather than herself, I take it the lady in question is no longer with us?

    2. They're demanding money "for her name etc." What's the "etc."?

    Yes its a story about the 1930's, the website is like a Wikipedia of Irish Mob stories of the characters from the 1800's to Prohibition Era and beyond, just a history project hobby thing of mine, I make no money or anything of the like, its just a hobby.

    I guess demanding for using her name and telling the story, her image etc but its all public information, front page newspaper, tv interview, in good chunk of a book about this mobster.

    If I can post the link I would, if its allowed in the forum rules?


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    #8
    all_names_gone
    Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭all_names_gone


    This is what we are talking about here, the story is made up of sources like this. This happened in 1931, its not like I have made anything up in any of this

    49df15c11ad9dc64c8022a9a491850d6.jpg


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    #9
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,103 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Neither her name nor the historical facts of her story belong to her living relatives.

    It's possible that someobody owns the rights to an image of her that you have reproduced. No reason to suppose that that someone is her relatives, however. It would be up to them to prove this, if that's their claim.

    Even if the accusation is that you have plagiarised other sources - taking not just facts and information, but actual text, from newspapers, books, TV programmes, etc - the aggrieved people there would not be her relatives, as such, but the holders of the rights to the material you copied and reproduced - authors, publishers, broadcasters, whoever.

    Might be different if you take material from a book written by a relative, or if you quote material from, e.g., letters written by or to her. Even if these letters have previously been quoted (by permission) in a book, say, that doesn't mean they are now in the public domain; they belong to the rights-holders in the letters, who could well be relatives of hers. But, again, if their complaint is that you have reproduced without permission material to which they hold the copyright, it's up them to identify the material and prove that they hold the copyright.


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    #10
    all_names_gone
    Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭all_names_gone


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Neither her name nor the historical facts of her story belong to her living relatives.

    It's possible that someobody owns the rights to an image of her that you have reproduced. No reason to suppose that that someone is her relatives, however. It would be up to them to prove this, if that's their claim.

    Even if the accusation is that you have plagiarised other sources - taking not just facts and information, but actual text, from newspapers, books, TV programmes, etc - the aggrieved people there would not be her relatives, as such, but the holders of the rights to the material you copied and reproduced - authors, publishers, broadcasters, whoever.

    Might be different if you take material from a book written by a relative, or if you quote material from, e.g., letters written by or to her. Even if these letters have previously been quoted (by permission) in a book, say, that doesn't mean they are now in the public domain; they belong to the rights-holders in the letters, who could well be relatives of hers. But, again, if their complaint is that you have reproduced without permission material to which they hold the copyright, it's up them to identify the material and prove that they hold the copyright.

    I see, that clears a lot up, the only image I am using is a screenshot from a youtube video interview she gave to a TV station in Boston I believe.

    The way i have been writing stories is a combination of websites or books that have similar information on the same subject and then write the story in my own words, thats not to say I havent copied and pasted once or twice, but in this story this one I wrote from corroborating websites and books.

    As far as I am aware I haven't used any information that belongs to the family, because I do state in the story that she disappeared from public life soon after this incident. And the interest in her stops then too, so before she was even married and had a family basically.

    So I feel a bit more confident that this is a shakedown of some type


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    #11
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    As a historian I have to say usually the problem is with writers of 'fiction' taking your research to write some potboiler and you are entitled to nada as non-fiction isn't protected under copyright. I seem to recall Dan Brown winning a case as it was ruled the work he allegedly mined for info was categorised as historical non-fiction and therefore he could use it.
    Back when I was writing my theses on a well known Irish historical figure I received an email from an author who wrote a book on that person telling me to back off and that if I used any of 'her research' I would have to pay her. She was told to take a running jump as 'her research' is all in the public domain and I could, and would, go and look at the documents myself.
    And that was the end of that.


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    #12
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,103 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    As a historian I have to say usually the problem is with writers of 'fiction' taking your research to write some potboiler and you are entitled to nada as non-fiction isn't protected under copyright. I seem to recall Dan Brown winning a case as it was ruled the work he allegedly mined for info was categorised as historical non-fiction and therefore he could use it.
    Back when I was writing my theses on a well known Irish historical figure I received an email from an author who wrote a book on that person telling me to back off and that if I used any of 'her research' I would have to pay her. She was told to take a running jump as 'her research' is all in the public domain and I could, and would, go and look at the documents myself.
    And that was the end of that.
    Nitpick: non-fiction is protected, but it's only the author's creative work that gets protection, not any underlying facts. So if I lift chunks of the text of your thesis on, say, Michael Collins and incorporate them into my soon-to-be-released erotic thriller The Big Fella (and Do I Mean Big!), a sizzling tale of lust, violence and then some more lust in revolutionary Ireland, passing them off as my own work, that's a breach of your copyright. But if I simply repeat factual information which I learned from reading your thesis, nope. You may have discovered those facts by diligent research, but you didn't create them.


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    #13
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,179 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Nitpick: non-fiction is protected, but it's only the author's creative work that gets protection, not any underlying facts. So if I lift chunks of the text of your thesis on, say, Michael Collins and incorporate them into my soon-to-be-released erotic thriller The Big Fella (and Do I Mean Big!), a sizzling tale of lust, violence and then some more lust in revolutionary Ireland, passing them off as my own work, that's a breach of your copyright. But if I simply repeat factual information which I learned from reading your thesis, nope. You may have discovered those facts by diligent research, but you didn't create them.

    Please keep us updated on the release date.


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    #14
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    Hi there.

    Just a few points;

    1. You cannot defame the Dead.
    2. The "rights" of someone's name do not exist. There are instances where a particularly story can be sold or an estate can register a trademark or copyright can be extended but this cannot be in or around more than 70 years after someone is dead.
    3. You dont know that this person represents the family. This could be a common shake down scam.
    4. Unless you get a letter from an actual LAWYER ignore tripe of this sort.
    5. I wouldnt even bother responding.


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    #15
    nuac
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    Peregrinus
    Re The Big Fella - Is there no end to your erudition?
    Could I have an advance copy? Just interested in the politics of the time, and any comments by Dev aka The Long Fella:)


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    #16
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,345 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    all_names_gone wrote: »
    I write stories about the Irish Mob, without getting into it its mainly about Prohibition mobsters, so I wrote a story about the partner of a famous mobster and now the family are demanding $20,000 from me for using her name etc.

    Not asking you to copy & paste the text here, we get the general gist of the demand you have received but what kind of communication are we talking about - e-mail or letter and if a letter, was it from a legal firm?

    You can probably get rid of them by simply asking them to itemise the charges they are looking to levy for your (alleged) breaches of the copyright the family claim to have rights over. And, based on the fact that the subject of your work is dead, ask them to quote the relevant authorities (acts of Congress or case law) by which they claim to maintain rights over the use of the name and/or image of a dead person. You haven't used any private family photos or diaries so they really haven't a leg to stand on.

    The estate of Elvis Presely was able to assert rights over use of his image, they may feel that this applies to any dead person so they're trying it on.


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    #17
    all_names_gone
    Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭all_names_gone


    coylemj wrote: »
    Not asking you to copy & paste the text here, we get the general gist of the demand you have received but what kind of communication are we talking about - e-mail or letter and if a letter, was it from a legal firm?

    You can probably get rid of them by simply asking them to itemise the charges they are looking to levy for your (alleged) breaches of the copyright the family claim to have rights over. And, based on the fact that the subject of your work is dead, ask them to quote the relevant authorities (acts of Congress or case law) by which they claim to maintain rights over the use of the name and/or image of a dead person. You haven't used any private family photos or diaries so they really haven't a leg to stand on.

    The estate of Elvis Presely was able to assert rights over use of his image, they may feel that this applies to any dead person so they're trying it on.

    It was a message through Facebook initially then and message from my personal website, not the actual website that holds all of my stories. Yeah the more I think of it the more it stinks of a scam of some type to be honest.

    I have an email drafted with the links to every story and book and front page newspaper of the day to send, I was waiting to get a bit more clarity before sending it, which now looks like it will be soon


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    #18
    all_names_gone
    Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭all_names_gone


    Another thing occurred to me today, the story and facts itself happened well before this woman in the story was even married or had children, so its possible that they have discovered a part of their grand mothers history they never knew about, the fact that she was involved with one of the biggest gangsters in Prohibition history.

    And to further that, the last anyone heard of this woman she was living in New Jersey and was married but thats where the interest stops for most people


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    #19
    Perifect
    Closed Accounts Posts: 751 ✭✭✭Perifect


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    As a historian I have to say usually the problem is with writers of 'fiction' taking your research to write some potboiler and you are entitled to nada as non-fiction isn't protected under copyright. I seem to recall Dan Brown winning a case as it was ruled the work he allegedly mined for info was categorised as historical non-fiction and therefore he could use it.
    Back when I was writing my theses on a well known Irish historical figure I received an email from an author who wrote a book on that person telling me to back off and that if I used any of 'her research' I would have to pay her. She was told to take a running jump as 'her research' is all in the public domain and I could, and would, go and look at the documents myself.
    And that was the end of that.

    Was that on Charlie Haughey?


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    #20
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    all_names_gone wrote: »

    I have an email drafted with the links to every story and book and front page newspaper of the day to send, I was waiting to get a bit more clarity before sending it, which now looks like it will be soon

    Don't engage any further. Getting a response will only encourage them.


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    #21
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,762 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    Hi there.

    Just a few points;

    1. You cannot defame the Dead.
    2. The "rights" of someone's name do not exist. There are instances where a particularly story can be sold or an estate can register a trademark or copyright can be extended but this cannot be in or around more than 70 years after someone is dead.
    3. You dont know that this person represents the family. This could be a common shake down scam.
    4. Unless you get a letter from an actual LAWYER ignore tripe of this sort.
    5. I wouldnt even bother responding.

    I thought there was a case a few years ago where a mother wasn't happy at the portrayal of her criminal son, after his death, and sued for libel and won. Was that subsequently overturned, or am I miss-remembering the outcome?


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    #22
    all_names_gone
    Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭all_names_gone


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    Don't engage any further. Getting a response will only encourage them.

    Yes this sounds like good advice. Because I do feel it will turn into a back and forward and becoming draining.


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    #23
    Dial Hard
    Registered Users Posts: 13,406 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    all_names_gone wrote:
    It was a message through Facebook initially then and message from my personal website, not the actual website that holds all of my stories. Yeah the more I think of it the more it stinks of a scam of some type to be honest.

    I don't even think it's a scam, I think they're just chancing their arm.

    Ignore and move on.


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    #24
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    cnocbui wrote: »
    I thought there was a case a few years ago where a mother wasn't happy at the portrayal of her criminal son, after his death, and sued for libel and won. Was that subsequently overturned, or am I miss-remembering the outcome?

    Couldnt happen.

    Not in Ireland anyway


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    #25
    daheff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭daheff


    all_names_gone wrote: »
    It was a message through Facebook initially then and message from my personal website, not the actual website that holds all of my stories. Yeah the more I think of it the more it stinks of a scam of some type to be honest.

    I have an email drafted with the links to every story and book and front page newspaper of the day to send, I was waiting to get a bit more clarity before sending it, which now looks like it will be soon

    Unless your FB page say you wrote the story, then I'd just respond telling them they have the wrong person.


    Don't respond via the website. Ignore it.


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    #26
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    nuac wrote: »
    Peregrinus
    Re The Big Fella - Is there no end to your erudition?
    Could I have an advance copy? Just interested in the politics of the time, and any comments by Dev aka The Long Fella:)

    The Big Fella and the Long Fella ... sounds more like a homoerotic thriller to me ...


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    #27
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,903 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Obviously they aren't entitled to any money but can you refuse the mob? Are they making you an offer you can't refuse? :)


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    #28
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,903 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    Hi there.

    Just a few points;

    1. You cannot defame the Dead.


    Michael Jacksons family can vouch for this


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    #29
    all_names_gone
    Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭all_names_gone


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Obviously they aren't entitled to any money but can you refuse the mob? Are they making you an offer you can't refuse? :)

    Ha, yes Ill be expecting a horse's head in my bed one day lol


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    #30
    LLewellen Farquarson
    Registered Users Posts: 410 ✭✭LLewellen Farquarson


    Or refer them to the case of Akkell v Pressdram

    http://www.lettersofnote.com/2013/08/arkell-v-pressdram.html?m=1


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    #31
    all_names_gone
    Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭all_names_gone


    The biggest worry for me is not the actual $20,000, which is nonsensical but its the fact that they could possible have my Facebook page taken down, which I have put hundreds of hours of work into and gains about 100 new followers a week and the website which took months to put together and build up too. Thats my biggest concern, I have since spoken to the hosting company and they have assured me that unless it is illegal or I am causing trouble on their servers is only then they will act, but so far I have done neither of those things.


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