Home heating automation

skerry · 16-11-2017 1:25pm

deezell wrote: »

skerry wrote: »

Just got dispatch mail for Tado there so its on the way, happy days....
Hopefully it's a straightforward swap-out with the Danfloss TP5 thats in there at the moment.

TP5 is a 2 wire connection, Common and N/O wires, straight swap to the tado. Just make sure to knock off boiler mains as more than likely there's 220v on one wire. If you can use a phase tester screwdriver you'll be ok. Careful now as Fr. Dougal would say.

Cheers, I'll have a look at the fuse box and if its not labelled up clearly I will maybe get help.

Had a quick gander around the system last night and fired it up for a while but was concentrating on painting so couldn't spend too much time on it. I did manage to figure out how to program the TP5 so will try see if I can heat upstairs without downstairs and vice versa over the weekend.

There is a temperature control dial in the press downstairs and the boiler is in a converted Aga Range in the kitchen which also has a temperature control dial for the heating. Should these be turned right up so that the thermostat is controlling the temperature and not being limited by what temp is set on these dials?

Also need to check what temp the water is being heated to in the hotpress as the shower wasn't too warm even thought the heat was on high enough. Maybe the big tank needs more time, no clue really.

I did notice that there are TRV's on most rads which I have no experience of. I just cranked them up to full to see what heat was being pumped out. Any idea what setting I should leave these at once Smart thermostat is setup or do they regulate themselves? Apologies for noob question

deezell · 16-11-2017 3:02pm

Ok, a converted to oil solid fuel cooker for your heating. This will drink oil. You need to start thinking efficient condensor boiler. Meantime it looks like it's plumbed to a thermal store tank. For hot water these need to be heated to about 70°, the hot water is heated on demand as it passes through in it's isolated copper heat exchanger. If there isn't enough solar to heat the store you're going to have to suck diesel into that Aga to get the store up to temperature. Id assume then that the rads are heated from this store when it's hot, which may take the Aga several hours of inefficient burning to achieve. The heated water from the Aga should be available immediately to the rads, but the tank may be acting as neutral point for combining water heated by the Aga and solar. In this case there may be a good delay before your system is ready to deliver hot water and heating. I'm not a fan of thermal stores unless all the energy is nearly free from solar and heat pumps.
The stat on the Aga is probably the delivery temperatures of the water to the rads/store. The one in the press ? Maybe a cut in stat for the solar, though I'd expect all it's bits to be beside the tank. The existing mechanical TRVs make it easy to convert to tado TRVs in the future, no plumbing required, just a change of the stat head, so that's good. Unless you're a traditionaliist and like big old ranges, I'd be losing that Aga before it robs you. It was meant to be solid fuelled. Oil conversions of these for heating are a waste. Can be worth a few bob for scrap though.

Redriddick · 16-11-2017 3:25pm

Lads I just got a Google home and I would like to be able to turn on the heating when we are not home and obviously maybe through the Google home.
I currently have am eph r27-hw timer.
What do ye suggest?

skerry · 16-11-2017 4:00pm

deezell wrote: »

Ok, a converted to oil solid fuel cooker for your heating. This will drink oil. You need to start thinking efficient condensor boiler. Meantime it looks like it's plumbed to a thermal store tank. For hot water these need to be heated to about 70°, the hot water is heated on demand as it passes through in it's isolated copper heat exchanger. If there isn't enough solar to heat the store you're going to have to suck diesel into that Aga to get the store up to temperature. Id assume then that the rads are heated from this store when it's hot, which may take the Aga several hours of inefficient burning to achieve. The heated water from the Aga should be available immediately to the rads, but the tank may be acting as neutral point for combining water heated by the Aga and solar. In this case there may be a good delay before your system is ready to deliver hot water and heating. I'm not a fan of thermal stores unless all the energy is nearly free from solar and heat pumps.
The stat on the Aga is probably the delivery temperatures of the water to the rads/store. The one in the press ? Maybe a cut in stat for the solar, though I'd expect all it's bits to be beside the tank. The existing mechanical TRVs make it easy to convert to tado TRVs in the future, no plumbing required, just a change of the stat head, so that's good. Unless you're a traditionaliist and like big old ranges, I'd be losing that Aga before it robs you. It was meant to be solid fuelled. Oil conversions of these for heating are a waste. Can be worth a few bob for scrap though.

Range came with the house so we kind of said we would give it a winter to see how it works out but we are wary that it might be a bit of a guzzler as you said. Kitchen is built around it so will be a big job to get rid if we decide to do so. I can't get in to the boiler to see what make it is but have messaged the lad that serviced it to see if he knows what type it is.

I probably didn't explain very well earlier - basically there is a standard dial stat next to the main power switch for turning the heating on in the press in the downstairs room behind the Aga. Then there is the stat on the Aga itself (two actually, one for cooking and one for heating) and as you said, there is a stat upstairs beside the tank for water temperature.

Are you saying that the Aga will have to work hard to get the thermal store for water up to temp the first time or everytime its turned on? I presume once the system is used regularly it will store water and heat it more efficiently the more often its on when we are living in the house?

Initially thought it was one of the Aga's that had to be on 24/7 and didn't heat rads which are supposed to be absolute monsters on fuel but turns out it heats all the rads and you only turn it on as needed so at least that was something. Still not expecting it to be incredibly efficient though.

Got the tank filled yesterday so will monitor how its going. Hoping Tado will help with efficiency.

deezell · 16-11-2017 4:40pm

skerry wrote: »

Range came with the house so we kind of said we would give it a winter to see how it works out but we are wary that it might be a bit of a guzzler as you said. Kitchen is built around it so will be a big job to get rid if we decide to do so. I can't get in to the boiler to see what make it is but have messaged the lad that serviced it to see if he knows what type it is.

I probably didn't explain very well earlier - basically there is a standard dial stat next to the main power switch for turning the heating on in the press in the downstairs room behind the Aga. Then there is the stat on the Aga itself (two actually, one for cooking and one for heating) and as you said, there is a stat upstairs beside the tank for water temperature.

Are you saying that the Aga will have to work hard to get the thermal store for water up to temp the first time or everytime its turned on? I presume once the system is used regularly it will store water and heat it more efficiently the more often its on when we are living in the house?

Initially thought it was one of the Aga's that had to be on 24/7 and didn't heat rads which are supposed to be absolute monsters on fuel but turns out it heats all the rads and you only turn it on as needed so at least that was something. Still not expecting it to be incredibly efficient though.

Got the tank filled yesterday so will monitor how its going. Hoping Tado will help with efficiency.

Tado will help to a point. It learns the rate at which your room temperature rises and uses this to modulate firing of the boiler, allowing rads to cool but not go cold, before firing again, a nice efficient use of a condensor boiler. I'm concerned that the thermal tank might introduce a long lag into the heating chain, though it should help efficiency to have warm radiators most of the time rather than really hot ones for short periods. Give it a go, I suppose you'll find out soon enough how well it performs. The existing TRVs should be set in the region of 21-22° for reasonable comfort.

skerry · 16-11-2017 4:47pm

deezell wrote: »

skerry wrote: »

Range came with the house so we kind of said we would give it a winter to see how it works out but we are wary that it might be a bit of a guzzler as you said. Kitchen is built around it so will be a big job to get rid if we decide to do so. I can't get in to the boiler to see what make it is but have messaged the lad that serviced it to see if he knows what type it is.

I probably didn't explain very well earlier - basically there is a standard dial stat next to the main power switch for turning the heating on in the press in the downstairs room behind the Aga. Then there is the stat on the Aga itself (two actually, one for cooking and one for heating) and as you said, there is a stat upstairs beside the tank for water temperature.

Are you saying that the Aga will have to work hard to get the thermal store for water up to temp the first time or everytime its turned on? I presume once the system is used regularly it will store water and heat it more efficiently the more often its on when we are living in the house?

Initially thought it was one of the Aga's that had to be on 24/7 and didn't heat rads which are supposed to be absolute monsters on fuel but turns out it heats all the rads and you only turn it on as needed so at least that was something. Still not expecting it to be incredibly efficient though.

Got the tank filled yesterday so will monitor how its going. Hoping Tado will help with efficiency.

Tado will help to a point. It learns the rate at which your room temperature rises and uses this to modulate firing of the boiler, allowing rads to cool but not go cold, before firing again, a nice efficient use of a condensor boiler. I'm concerned that the thermal tank might introduce a long lag into the heating chain, though it should help efficiency to have warm radiators most of the time rather than really hot ones for short periods. Give it a go, I suppose you'll find out soon enough how well it performs. The existing TRVs should be set in the region of 21-22° for reasonable comfort.

Thanks for all the advice deezell, appreciate it. Will see how it works out once we get moved in next week and get using the system on a day-to-day basis, yesterday was the first time its been fired up in a few months so will surely help things once its getting regular use.

Hopefully Tado install will be easy and I'll be able to keep a closer eye on how the system is running over time.

irelandrover · 16-11-2017 4:54pm

Ive a simple enough question that i havent been able to get an answer to. Is it worth having TRVs in the room that the thermostat itself is in.
So if the thermostat is in the living room then im hoping i can get away with only putting TRVs in the bedrooms.

deezell · 16-11-2017 5:42pm

irelandrover wrote: »

Ive a simple enough question that i havent been able to get an answer to. Is it worth having TRVs in the room that the thermostat itself is in.
So if the thermostat is in the living room then im hoping i can get away with only putting TRVs in the bedrooms.

No TRV in the room with stat, say hall or living room.
TRVs in rooms you want to close off while main living space (main stat controlled) is actively heating, and TRVs in rooms that cool faster and require a boost at times the living room stat is at target or is off. ( corner bed rooms with 2 outside walls for example). If you have the main stat in the hall, you can have a TRV in the living room to close it in the mornings when you only require bedrooms and kitchen heated for example.

deezell · 16-11-2017 6:08pm

Redriddick wrote: »

Lads I just got a Google home and I would like to be able to turn on the heating when we are not home and obviously maybe through the Google home.
I currently have am eph r27-hw timer.
What do ye suggest?

If you have a manual wall thermostat connected to the eph, replace it with a smart stat that is Google Home compatible, Nest, Tado, Honeywell. These and other smart stats like Hive, Netamo can be controlled remotely by their own apps also.

Dr.Winston O'Boogie · 17-11-2017 1:02pm

Any idea how much a plumber would charge to convert a radiator to a TRV valve? I presume that has to be done firstly before getting the smart valves? I have a netatmo thermostat already.

cherryghost · 17-11-2017 3:34pm

Just an FYI, those smart valves are notoriously loud. They seem to have a mind of its own even when heating is off, and start screeching (turning) at all hours.

Irish Gunner · 17-11-2017 3:46pm

Dr.Winston O'Boogie wrote: »

Any idea how much a plumber would charge to convert a radiator to a TRV valve? I presume that has to be done firstly before getting the smart valves? I have a netatmo thermostat already.

I got mine and cost was over €250 for 5 radiators in the house. I just had the regular valves. I asked a few Plumbers and this was the general price so he supplied the TRV as I only had 3 Netatmo valves. Took him a morning to to do them. Make sure that you have the adapters, think they come in the box with the Netatmo valves

Looking at getting 2 more valves and see on Maplin UK they are £50 but you have to collect them:mad:

deezell · 17-11-2017 6:35pm

cherryghost wrote: »

Just an FYI, those smart valves are notoriously loud. They seem to have a mind of its own even when heating is off, and start screeching (turning) at all hours.

Which brand? Tado are very quiet. If you're putting smart heads on existing older trv bodies, their plunge valves may be stiff and calcified, putting a strain on the smart valve head motor.

enfant terrible · 17-11-2017 7:58pm

Irish Gunner wrote: »

I got mine and cost was over €250 for 5 radiators in the house. I just had the regular valves. I asked a few Plumbers and this was the general price so he supplied the TRV as I only had 3 Netatmo valves. Took him a morning to to do them. Make sure that you have the adapters, think they come in the box with the Netatmo valves

Looking at getting 2 more valves and see on Maplin UK they are £50 but you have to collect them:mad:

How are you getting on with the Netatmo valves?

Are they easy to setup on the Netatmo app once fitted?

deezell · 17-11-2017 9:39pm

Irish Gunner wrote: »

I got mine and cost was over €250 for 5 radiators in the house. I just had the regular valves. I asked a few Plumbers and this was the general price so he supplied the TRV as I only had 3 Netatmo valves. Took him a morning to to do them. Make sure that you have the adapters, think they come in the box with the Netatmo valves

Looking at getting 2 more valves and see on Maplin UK they are £50 but you have to collect them:mad:

These guys do UK pickup and ROI delivery for £10 plus vat
http://m.ipostparcels.com/

Stoner · 18-11-2017 1:48am

cherryghost wrote:

Just an FYI, those smart valves are notoriously loud. They seem to have a mind of its own even when heating is off, and start screeching (turning) at all hours.

Lightwaverf gen 1 was like that.
Firmware upgrade stopped the random screeching.
They still do it a bit but not as bad

thecivvie · 18-11-2017 5:34pm

Ok, just wondering what thermostat to get. Boiler will be heating the rads, 1 zone and the hot water is stored in a small tank in the boiler.

The cable for the thermostat off the boiler is a 2 wire jobby. I don't need a thermostat that also does not water as there is no way to over ride the existing timer etc.

And before you ask, the boiler is not in Ireland, but in Russia. Weirdest setup i have seen, but it seems to be the way they do kt. I was looking at the basic nest

I want to be able to turn the heating on remotely as the temps get rather low at times, currently -19

Irish Gunner · 18-11-2017 6:48pm

enfant terrible wrote: »

How are you getting on with the Netatmo valves?

Are they easy to setup on the Netatmo app once fitted?

Yeah happy enough but I just wish I could turn them off completely. Posting issues on their forum but great for keeping control over room temperatures especially in Juniors room.

App easy enough it's updated regularly. Check out the Netatmo forum for users issues

Irish Gunner · 18-11-2017 6:50pm

deezell wrote: »

These guys do UK pickup and ROI delivery for £10 plus vat
http://m.ipostparcels.com/

Family in UK so may hold out but thanks

deezell · 18-11-2017 9:58pm

thecivvie wrote: »

Ok, just wondering what thermostat to get. Boiler will be heating the rads, 1 zone and the hot water is stored in a small tank in the boiler.

The cable for the thermostat off the boiler is a 2 wire jobby. I don't need a thermostat that also does not water as there is no way to over ride the existing timer etc.

And before you ask, the boiler is not in Ireland, but in Russia. Weirdest setup i have seen, but it seems to be the way they do kt. I was looking at the basic nest

I want to be able to turn the heating on remotely as the temps get rather low at times, currently -19

Combi boilers which supply the hot water directly without a copper cylinder are far more common abroad, especially when gas fuelled. Makes for a simpler setup. Any of the smart stats will do the trick, Tado has the boiler contacts in the stat, Nest needs a control box which is part of the kit. They all have an app for remote control and timing. Some more expensive than others. Tado, Nest, honeywell, netamoetc, your choice.

bk · 18-11-2017 10:04pm

thecivvie wrote: »

Ok, just wondering what thermostat to get. Boiler will be heating the rads, 1 zone and the hot water is stored in a small tank in the boiler.

The cable for the thermostat off the boiler is a 2 wire jobby. I don't need a thermostat that also does not water as there is no way to over ride the existing timer etc.

I have this setup, combi boiler and it is brilliant. Netatmo is an extremely easy install with this sort of setup. As in 10 minute DIY job. Also pretty affordable.

Take two wires out of the existing thermostat and plug them into the Netatmo and two AA batteries, screw into wall and done.

thecivvie wrote: »

And before you ask, the boiler is not in Ireland, but in Russia. Weirdest setup i have seen, but it seems to be the way they do kt. I was looking at the basic nest

I want to be able to turn the heating on remotely as the temps get rather low at times, currently -19

Cool

Actually this sort of setup is the norm in mainland Europe. We are the weird ones with the hot water cylinders. It is pretty unique to UK/Ireland and I have to say the Europeans have it right, combi boilers are far nicer IMO.

deezell · 19-11-2017 12:07am

If Nest is your preferred choice you'll save a few quid if you can find a generation 2 kit, which didn't have seperate HW contacts in it's control box. You might find one for £150 or thereabouts. Little more involved in install than Netamo or Tado, you connect thermostat wires to the ( mains powered) control box at the boiler, then connect the Nest wirelessly, or by low voltage using the redundant pair of wires to the old stat wall location. First method means you can put the stat anywhere, powered by a phone type power/charger, second way it goes on the wall where the old stat was, it's powered and digitally connected by the wire pair, no problems with wireless signal strength, and no batteries or power/charger unit.

Charlie19 · 19-11-2017 4:48am

Can the Nest be activated by voice command using android phone/google home app?

Or is it more likely that you'd need the google home device.

deezell · 19-11-2017 9:28am

Charlie19 wrote: »

Can the Nest be activated by voice command using android phone/google home app?

Or is it more likely that you'd need the google home device.

I thought that I could do the same with my Tado stat just using the phone, but it seems that you need the actual Home device. Howeher, if I try to use Google Assistant, the android voice command app, and say " turn down heat", it responds with "No nest thermostat found", so it looks like Assistant is equipped somehow to directly talk to Nest.

Charlie19 · 19-11-2017 12:58pm

deezell wrote: »

I thought that I could do the same with my Tado stat just using the phone, but it seems that you need the actual Home device. Howeher, if I try to use Google Assistant, the android voice command app, and say " turn down heat", it responds with "No nest thermostat found", so it looks like Assistant is equipped somehow to directly talk to Nest.

Oh thats cool. I'm going to hold out till Black Friday and see if there is any deals on the Nest. At the moment its around €220 without going the Electric Ireland route.

deezell · 19-11-2017 1:38pm

Tbh, the info out there on Google Home ( the app), the device, and Google Assistant ( the app) is a confusing mess. Not for the first time have I trawled for answers and got confusing information. Google's help on assistant tells you to press 'home' key on you phone to bring up a screen with an icon in the top right to configure. No such icon appears. Do I even have it on my phone, an S7? Some blogs say no. Google says something confusing about earlier versions and tells you to press the non existent icon to turn it on. I have a microphone icon and can say 'ok Google', but no options to add devices. I have Google Home app, it's found my Chromecast, but none of the menu items appear that are flagged in Google help pages. The most I've read is that Nest is ' native' to google assistant ( Google own Nest), which is why I get the response that no Nest was found.

deezell · 19-11-2017 1:49pm

Charlie19 wrote: »

Oh thats cool. I'm going to hold out till Black Friday and see if there is any deals on the Nest. At the moment its around €220 without going the Electric Ireland route.

This just showed in an Amazon search. £110. Says it's new.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/ol/B00GD8NRYE/ref=mw_dp_olp?ie=UTF8&condition=new

KD11 · 19-11-2017 3:16pm

deezell wrote: »

If Nest is your preferred choice you'll save a few quid if you can find a generation 2 kit, which didn't have seperate HW contacts in it's control box. You might find one for £150 or thereabouts. Little more involved in install than Netamo or Tado, you connect thermostat wires to the ( mains powered) control box at the boiler, then connect the Nest wirelessly, or by low voltage using the redundant pair of wires to the old stat wall location. First method means you can put the stat anywhere, powered by a phone type power/charger, second way it goes on the wall where the old stat was, it's powered and digitally connected by the wire pair, no problems with wireless signal strength, and no batteries or power/charger unit.

So does the nest only need power running to it?
I am currently redoing all the plumbing and heating systems in my two story semi detached and am looking into installing a nest.

The house currently has an oil boiler outside in a shed at the bottom of the garden with a cable going to a programmer inside the house in a really awkward position.

My plan is to replace the outside boiler with an external boiler closer to the house and zone the house to upstairs, downstairs and HW. I know I will need 2 Nests for this setup (1 for downstairs and HW & 1 for upstairs) but i am not sure what wiring I need to run for this.

Is the heat link that comes with the nest installed at the boiler and then I just need power cable run to where the nests will be going? (1 in Kitchen, 1 in hall upstairs) Do i need to install 2 heatlinks at the boiler?

Does the nest work with external boilers?

My plumber was talking about installing valves on the rads aswell. Are these needed to zone the house?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to wrap my head around all this.

Charlie19 · 19-11-2017 6:24pm

deezell wrote: »

This just showed in an Amazon search. £110. Says it's new.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/ol/B00GD8NRYE/ref=mw_dp_olp?ie=UTF8&condition=new

Ordered:)

The seller dosen't look too great but I took a chance.

punisher5112 · 19-11-2017 6:39pm

deezell wrote: »

This just showed in an Amazon search. £110. Says it's new.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/ol/B00GD8NRYE/ref=mw_dp_olp?ie=UTF8&condition=new

Anyone know what gen it is?

I looked up ppsupplies and there are a few some paper supplier and another plumbing supplies etc.

It says they just launched on amazon.

deezell · 19-11-2017 8:10pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Anyone know what gen it is?

I looked up ppsupplies and there are a few some paper supplier and another plumbing supplies etc.

It says they just launched on amazon.

In guessing it's gen 2 without HW relay on the heatlink interface. You could ask I suppose. You're well covered with Amazon if anything is dodgy.

punisher5112 · 19-11-2017 8:11pm

deezell wrote: »

In guessing it's gen 2 without HW relay on the heatlink interface. You could ask I suppose. You're well covered with Amazon if anything is dodgy.

So it would be like netatamo and can't do hot water just heating??

deezell · 19-11-2017 8:21pm

KD11 wrote: »

So does the nest only need power running to it?
I am currently redoing all the plumbing and heating systems in my two story semi detached and am looking into installing a nest.

The house currently has an oil boiler outside in a shed at the bottom of the garden with a cable going to a programmer inside the house in a really awkward position.

My plan is to replace the outside boiler with an external boiler closer to the house and zone the house to upstairs, downstairs and HW. I know I will need 2 Nests for this setup (1 for downstairs and HW & 1 for upstairs) but i am not sure what wiring I need to run for this.

Is the heat link that comes with the nest installed at the boiler and then I just need power cable run to where the nests will be going? (1 in Kitchen, 1 in hall upstairs) Do i need to install 2 heatlinks at the boiler?

Does the nest work with external boilers?

My plumber was talking about installing valves on the rads aswell. Are these needed to zone the house?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to wrap my head around all this.

Zoned systems need a thermostat for each zone. This can be all Nests or a Nest for the main living area and any other type for the second zone, smart or dumb. The heat link box would normally be wired to the motorised valve for its zone, these valves in in turn have a relay which fires the boiler when the valve opens. Two zone + HW = 3 zone valves. If the boiler is outside it will be wired back to a junction box where all the wires from the zone valves, pump and heatlink boxes are brought together.
The Nest stats themselves are powered either by a small mains adapter, or wired at low voltage back to it's heatlink. These wires also carry the digital signals from stat to heatlink. Otherwise the Nest connects wirelessly to the heatlink ( but not using wifi). Wifi is used to connect the nest to the router and the internet and from there to your phone app.
Radiator TRVs can be used to individually control the upper temperature of a room. If you put them in every room of a zone you don't need a stat for that zone. Nest don't do smarts TRVs so if you want smart you'll have to go for another brand, with separate app control. TRVs will regulate the temperature while the zone is on, but won't call the boiler to start the zone unless they're smart with a control box. Tado do this very well
Final bit of advice as you're plumbing anew, consider a combi boiler. No need for HW control, no need for cylinder. A single nest can be used for the 2 zones, the Nest stat controlling main living area, and the HW timed relay can control upstairs with either TRVs or a standard stat.
If you must have 3 zones all available on an app have a look at EPH controls smart 3 zone system, know as Ember.

deezell · 19-11-2017 8:27pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

So it would be like netatamo and can't do hot water just heating??

If its gen 2 it wont have control of the hw. This is not an issue as you can control hw with a cylinder stat and optional timer

punisher5112 · 19-11-2017 8:29pm

deezell wrote: »

If it gen 2 it wont have control of the hw. Thus us notvsn issue as you vsn control hw with a cylinder stat and optional timer

OK cool I honestly thought the nest could.

Obviously that's why they are selling them off cheap so.

I have a netatamo and does the job perfectly on heating only of course.

spuncy · 19-11-2017 9:34pm

Hi,

I've been trying to figure out which (if any) of the smart thermostats could be used in my house based on the layout but am not sure I've seen a configuration that works. I'm hoping that the Netatmo/Hive/Nest can do it.

There is a gas boiler in the kitchen connected to an Immermat timer clock, fiddledy round face with pins. This controls boiler on or off for the whole house and seems to be a simple switch. The house has a thermostat in the dining/sitting room and another on the landing. These have 2 wires and seem to be only connected to motorised valves in the hot press. The cylinder in the hot press has a thermostat that is also connected to a third motorised valve.

Looking into the Netatmo/Nest/Hive systems, they all seem to assume that the thermostat on the wall is able to call back to the boiler for heat. However, this is not the case here - it would require coordinating both the motorised valve and something at the boiler to turn it on.

This layout was the same in my last house, in which I installed a Conrad/ELV master unit at the boiler and motorised heads on the TRVs in each room (the motorised valves in the hot press were set to bypass). I assumed most houses here were set up in the same way, but haven't seen others mention it.

Is there a way to do this with any of these products or am I missing something?

Thanks

PS This house is rented so unable to do the same again and put in zoned in every room, want to replace the old thermostat/crappy timer back when we move on.

EDIT: Found a lot of what I asked above in other threads on the forum

I will probably go for a single Netatmo to start. I'll put the relay to control the boiler, replacing the clock timer, and the Netatmo thermostat downstairs. Then use the existing thermostats to control the motorised valves upstairs and for hot water to restrict the temps. So kind of single zone for the house but limit to temps. Will see how it might evolve in future then.

Any advice/experience appreciated!

deezell · 20-11-2017 12:27am

spuncy wrote: »

Hi,

I've been trying to figure out which (if any) of the smart thermostats could be used in my house based on the layout but am not sure I've seen a configuration that works. I'm hoping that the Netatmo/Hive/Nest can do it.

There is a gas boiler in the kitchen connected to an Immermat timer clock, fiddledy round face with pins. This controls boiler on or off for the whole house and seems to be a simple switch. The house has a thermostat in the dining/sitting room and another on the landing. These have 2 wires and seem to be only connected to motorised valves in the hot press. The cylinder in the hot press has a thermostat that is also connected to a third motorised valve.

Looking into the Netatmo/Nest/Hive systems, they all seem to assume that the thermostat on the wall is able to call back to the boiler for heat. However, this is not the case here - it would require coordinating both the motorised valve and something at the boiler to turn it on......
Is there a way to do this with any of these products or am I missing something ....

The wall thermostat would only wire directly to the boiler in a simple single zone system. Yours is three zone, each zone is governed by a motorised valve actuated by it's thermostat. The actuators on the valves, when they are fully open close a pair of contacts and this contact signal, sometimes 220v or else just contact closure, is connected to the boiler which then fires and pumps hot water through the open zone valve(s). The boiler firing contacts of the zone valves are parallel connected to each other so any valve when open will fire the boiler, but these contacts are isolated from their thermostat input so one stat can't turn on the valve of another zone.
Any of the smart stats can be used to replace one or both of the wall stats. Some like Tado or Netamo have the contacts in the stat, others like Nest have the contacts in a control or link box. Its just a case of replacing the wall stats and connecting the wire pair directly to the new smart stat (or its link box). The smart stat does not directly fire The boiler, it's zone valve does. The mechanical timer can be set to always on and the smart stat(s) will take over the timing function. See earlier answers for wiring nest heatlink box to the original wall stat wires where they connect to the zone valve.

deezell · 20-11-2017 12:40am

spuncy wrote: »

EDIT: Found a lot of what I asked above in other threads on the forum

I will probably go for a single Netatmo to start. I'll put the relay to control the boiler, replacing the clock timer, and the Netatmo thermostat downstairs. Then use the existing thermostats to control the motorised valves upstairs and for hot water to restrict the temps. So kind of single zone for the house but limit to temps. Will see how it might evolve in future then.

Any advice/experience appreciated!

Don't replace clock timer, just set to always on and replace both heating stats with smart. The HW will work away controlled by it's own stat, theres no great saving in having it on a timer, but if you install a nest you will have a pair of HW timed contacts to insert between the cylinder stat and the HW zone valve. TIming and temperature control of the heating zones separately would require two smart stats unless you want to open both valves together and create a single zone. There would be little point in leaving in one of the old stats in the circuit other than as a means to cap that zones temperature at a point below what it might reach when the single smart stat is on.

spuncy · 20-11-2017 12:51am

Thanks for the response deezell. Makes sense - wasn't aware the valves could control the boiler like this. I tested having the boiler on constant and turning down all the dumb thermostats to close the valves, but it still pumped heat around downstairs - that motorised valve seems to be broken, so will get that sorted first.

The plan then would be to get two of the Nest/Hive/Netatmo thermostats and replace the dumb thermostats on the wall. These seem to have 2 wires only coming into them so presume they can handle the load of the motorised valves. Will go back over some of the other posts in other threads on this. It's looking like Netatmo at the moment based on price (and works with Google Home) but will see how things drop in the next few days!

deezell · 20-11-2017 1:54am

Most Actuators can be removed easily from the valves to test that they're working electrically and to see if the valve mechanism itself is stuck. Good luck!

skerry · 20-11-2017 8:40pm

deezell wrote: »

TP5 is a 2 wire connection, Common and N/O wires, straight swap to the tado. Just make sure to knock off boiler mains as more than likely there's 220v on one wire. If you can use a phase tester screwdriver you'll be ok. Careful now as Fr. Dougal would say.

Tado arrived today and looks brand new more or less. It's in the box with all leads etc and the little yellow pullout thing is still covering where the cables go. Cheers for the heads up on the Maplin ones. Just need to figure out how to check firmware on it now to see if it needs update (guessing it will).

Just tinkering with the setup on the laptop and I'm at the stage where its asking for what type of boiler I have. Any idea how exact it needs to be as the boiler is in my Aga and hard to get at the model number.

I'm told its a standard oil burner same as in a Stanley or Rayburn range. Any idea if it will make much difference if I just ballpark it and pick one of the Stanley boiler models, presume they are all based on similar design?

deezell · 21-11-2017 12:27am

skerry wrote: »

Tado arrived today and looks brand new more or less. It's in the box with all leads etc and the little yellow pullout thing is still covering where the cables go. Cheers for the heads up on the Maplin ones. Just need to figure out how to check firmware on it now to see if it needs update (guessing it will).

Just tinkering with the setup on the laptop and I'm at the stage where its asking for what type of boiler I have. Any idea how exact it needs to be as the boiler is in my Aga and hard to get at the model number.

I'm told its a standard oil burner same as in a Stanley or Rayburn range. Any idea if it will make much difference if I just ballpark it and pick one of the Stanley boiler models, presume they are all based on similar design?

Yes, it's a standard oil burner with a 2 wire stat which is fired by closing it's Switched Live circuit. You'll be wiring it in in place of an existing 2 wire stat, so the install instructions are standard. It can be a bit of a nuisance if they don't recognise your boiler or existing stat as they will take some time to research it, and so not proceed to 'close' your installation until they issue appropriate install instructions. Because they didn't have my original timer stat controller ( systemlink homezone) on their database, or my new firebird enviromax boiler, they said they were 'preparing my installation instructions', and my install, em, stalled. I had to inform them I had finished the install using the generic instructions and would they proceed to treat my install as complete. Once this was done my stat updated with the new firmware and all functions on the app worked.

deezell · 21-11-2017 12:38am

Firmware version will show on the App under settings/heating/smart thermostat once you've registeted the serial no. of the stat and connected the hub and paired the stat to it. Some users have had to request Tado to push the new firmware on. Currently V47.7 , these old stock stats were at V11.x in some cases.

CHealy · 21-11-2017 12:55pm

Just want to see if anyone has any experience in being in a similar situation to myself. Im currently in the middle of a full renovation of a two story 3 bed house, literally everything new except for the walls. We've just had the 1st fix for plumbing and electrics and we'll have a combi gas boiler with 2 heating zones (upstairs/downstairs), now at the same time the electritian has wired for two thermostats in both zones but I obviously want a smart thermostat to control the entire thing. What would be best for me in this scenario? Iv done some research and Im leaning towards Nest/Netatmo but I suppose my main question would be is there a need for the two thermostats wired on the walls? Will these products allow for zoned heating?

deezell · 21-11-2017 2:17pm

CHealy wrote: »

Just want to see if anyone has any experience in being in a similar situation to myself. Im currently in the middle of a full renovation of a two story 3 bed house, literally everything new except for the walls. We've just had the 1st fix for plumbing and electrics and we'll have a combi gas boiler with 2 heating zones (upstairs/downstairs), now at the same time the electritian has wired for two thermostats in both zones but I obviously want a smart thermostat to control the entire thing. What would be best for me in this scenario? Iv done some research and Im leaning towards Nest/Netatmo but I suppose my main question would be is there a need for the two thermostats wired on the walls? Will these products allow for zoned heating?

One stat per zone. If you have only a single stat or smart stat then it turns on and off both zones, so you have one zone. Smart stats allow you to move away from timer controllers, but if you have two zones you will need two stats. With Tado, theres one thermostat in the starter kit, about €250, then add an extra stat, about €120. V2 kits still available for £129 on Amazon, extra stat for £99.
Ember by EPH is a smart version of their traditional zoned timer unit with wirelessly connected stats. 2 zone is about €246, but I don't think they have the range of smart features that Nest and Tado do.
Nest is really good but buying two Nests will set you back a bit.
There's Drayton, Honeywell, Netamo, Hive and a few others, you'll need to do a bit of reading to determine how good are the features, the hardware, and the cost of a two stat system. With the combi system you're free of the need for hot water timing, so no need for extension boxes/kits. with Nest this box comes with the stat, and has switching control for the heating, and timing for the HW. You could use a single nest to get smart stat control of one zone and timed control of another which could have a normal thermostat on the wall.
Netamo or Tado would seem to me to be the best choice for your system, as the stats just go on the wall where the normal dumb stats would be, no extensions boxes required, just the wireless connection to the tiny router connected hub.

skerry · 21-11-2017 2:27pm

deezell wrote: »

skerry wrote: »

Tado arrived today and looks brand new more or less. It's in the box with all leads etc and the little yellow pullout thing is still covering where the cables go. Cheers for the heads up on the Maplin ones. Just need to figure out how to check firmware on it now to see if it needs update (guessing it will).

Just tinkering with the setup on the laptop and I'm at the stage where its asking for what type of boiler I have. Any idea how exact it needs to be as the boiler is in my Aga and hard to get at the model number.

I'm told its a standard oil burner same as in a Stanley or Rayburn range. Any idea if it will make much difference if I just ballpark it and pick one of the Stanley boiler models, presume they are all based on similar design?

Yes, it's a standard oil burner with a 2 wire stat which is fired by closing it's Switched Live circuit. You'll be wiring it in in place of an existing 2 wire stat, so the install instructions are standard. It can be a bit of a nuisance if they don't recognise your boiler or existing stat as they will take some time to research it, and so not proceed to 'close' your installation until they issue appropriate install instructions. Because they didn't have my original timer stat controller ( systemlink homezone) on their database, or my new firebird enviromax boiler, they said they were 'preparing my installation instructions', and my install, em, stalled. I had to inform them I had finished the install using the generic instructions and would they proceed to treat my install as complete. Once this was done my stat updated with the new firmware and all functions on the app worked.

Thanks for the advice Deezell, appreciated as always.

So you reckon there's no harm in selecting one of the Stanley burners they have listed as they are all the same principle?

I just wasn't sure if ballparking it would affect the operation of the stat somehow but if its only a straight swap out of my TP5 wall stat and they only need the boiler info to determine that install procedure then seems OK. Will try tonight but can't see myself getting at the model number of the boiler that's in there.

Will enter the Stanley boiler into the web app tonight and see how far I get and if I get install instructions I might make a stab at it over the weekend (a 'be careful not to electrocute myself kind of stab')

CHealy · 21-11-2017 2:34pm

deezell wrote: »

One stat per zone. If you have only a single stat or smart stat then it turns on and off both zones, so you have one zone. Smart stats allow you to move away from timer controllers, but if you have two zones you will need two stats. With Tado, theres one thermostat in the starter kit, about €250, then add an extra stat, about €120. V2 kits still available for £129 on Amazon, extra stat for £99.
Ember by EPH is a smart version of their traditional zoned timer unit with wirelessly connected stats. 2 zone is about €246, but I don't think they have the range of smart features that Nest and Tado do.
Nest is really good but buying two Nests will set you back a bit.
There's Drayton, Honeywell, Netamo, Hive and a few others, you'll need to do a bit of reading to determine how good are the features, the hardware, and the cost of a two stat system. With the combi system you're free of the need for hot water timing, so no need for extension boxes/kits. with Nest this box comes with the stat, and has switching control for the heating, and timing for the HW. You could use a single nest to get smart stat control of one zone and timed control of another which could have a normal thermostat on the wall.
Netamo or Tado would seem to me to be the best choice for your system, as the stats just go on the wall where the normal dumb stats would be, no extensions boxes required, just the wireless connection to the tiny router connected hub.

Thanks a million for that info deezell, very helpful. I'll research more into what you've advised, if it did come down to it would you say choosing between lets say Tado and Netatmo would be personal choice or does one have a distinct advantage over the other? Buying the 2 stats is coming in at in and around the same price for both so I'll be spending that much either way and thats ok.

bk · 21-11-2017 3:24pm

CHealy wrote: »

Thanks a million for that info deezell, very helpful. I'll research more into what you've advised, if it did come down to it would you say choosing between lets say Tado and Netatmo would be personal choice or does one have a distinct advantage over the other? Buying the 2 stats is coming in at in and around the same price for both so I'll be spending that much either way and thats ok.

Pretty much personal preference for your particular set up. I've a Netatmo and deezell has Tado.

On Amazon:
Netatmo is currently £99
Tado v2 is £129
Tado v3 is £199

One thing, if you want to make these portable (rather then mounted on the wall where the current thermostat is), Netatmo can do this out of the box, while Tado needs the extension kit that costs another £75

I love my Netatmo, but it does have one small flaw. If you use the physical button on the Thermostat a lot, it might break the button. It kind of a tilt action and I'm not crazy with that. Tado has better physical buttons by the looks of it. If you plan on mostly using the app or voice control (alexa/ghome) then it isn't an issue.

deezell · 21-11-2017 3:38pm

CHealy wrote: »

Thanks a million for that info deezell, very helpful. I'll research more into what you've advised, if it did come down to it would you say choosing between lets say Tado and Netatmo would be personal choice or does one have a distinct advantage over the other? Buying the 2 stats is coming in at in and around the same price for both so I'll be spending that much either way and thats ok.

I agree, it can be personal choice.. I've installed Tado, Nest and system link (non smart) and EPH (non smart) for myself and family in recent times, each has their own charm. I really like the minimalist look of the Tado. The Netamo looks and reads very good. The Hive is as ugly as they get.

bk · 21-11-2017 3:52pm

deezell wrote: »

I agree, it can be personal choice.. I've installed Tado, Nest and system link (non smart) and EPH (non smart) for myself and family in recent times, each has their own charm. I really like the minimalist look of the Tado. The Netamo looks and reads very good. The Hive is as ugly as they get.

Yep and I just last week recommended Tado to my sister even though a bit more expensive, so that she has the option of a hot water zone in future.

BTW deezell, I meant to ask you, do you have any idea how much it costs to get a HW zone valve installed? And is it worth it?

Her hot water cylinder is now just heated when the rads are on or by immersion. Her showers are also electric! To be honest, it all doesn't sound very efficient.

I'm recommending the Tado plus Smart TRV's for upstairs so she can create an upstairs zone. At the moment upstairs ends up far too hot compared to a normal temp downstairs.

Home heating automation

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