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Air Corps Availability

135

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 644 ✭✭✭faoiarvok


    Negative_G wrote: »
    The AC currently do not provide a 24 hr service to the HSE as per the link above, which is quite likely as a result of the lack of ATC as was widely discussed in the wake of the R116 accident.

    Nothing to do with ATC. AC112 operates a daylight service, likely because it's not considered safe to land at unsurveyed accident sites without good visibility.

    Air Corps often provided air ambulance transfers between airports at night.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    i wonder why the Air Corps where asked to go north and not the British army or air force called in to help, are they in as bad shape for crew as we are?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭sparky42


    roadmaster wrote: »
    i wonder why the Air Corps where asked to go north and not the British army or air force called in to help, are they in as bad shape for crew as we are?


    I seem to remember something about the RAF getting shirty over local authorities paying for such missions, maybe we offered a better price? (Free)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    faoiarvok wrote: »
    Nothing to do with ATC. AC112 operates a daylight service, likely because it's not considered safe to land at unsurveyed accident sites without good visibility.

    Air Corps often provided air ambulance transfers between airports at night.

    I think you need to read back and look at the context to which I was discussing at the time.

    The AC has well publicised ATC issues and is not H24 at present. This issue is the predominant reason why they do not offer a 24 hour inter hospital service at the moment which is nothing to do with the EAS discussion unless of course you think you can launch an international IFR flight from an aerodrome with no ATC service during the night.

    AC112 operates under VFR rules and as such, is not required to speak to ATC whatsoever unless they enter controlled airspace.

    You're confusing yourself. Misinterpreting the context to a post from over three months ago is hardly helpful to discussion.

    I've highlighted the important past tense statement in your post also.

    So just to clarify things.

    The AC currently operate a daylight only Emergency Aeromedical VFR service from Athlone in support of the HSE and have done for six years now. This is a mandated service with an agreed SLA.

    The AC previously provided a 24 hour inter hospital transfer/organ retrieval service to the UK which was also an SLA with the HSE. This is no longer the case due to a lack of personnel, most notably, ATC. They still routinely carry out patient transfers during the current working ATC hours.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    When you look over the last few weeks with all the operations the air corps are preforming between the security for British friends last week down south , 112 which seams to be in the air from dawn till dusk everyday and now firefighting north and south its a credit the men and women in casement that they can provide these services considering there is only 8 helicopters . A time s going to come soon when something major is going wrong weather its a major accident ,natural disaster or terrorist related and they ring casement for helicopter support but the caller is told sorry dont have the aircraft and we dont have the crews due to your penny pinching!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    roadmaster wrote: »
    When you look over the last few weeks with all the operations the air corps are preforming between the security for British friends last week down south , 112 which seams to be in the air from dawn till dusk everyday and now firefighting north and south its a credit the men and women in casement that they can provide these services considering there is only 8 helicopters . A time s going to come soon when something major is going wrong weather its a major accident ,natural disaster or terrorist related and they ring casement for helicopter support but the caller is told sorry dont have the aircraft and we dont have the crews due to your penny pinching!

    Like everything else in the Irish political sphere. If there are no perceived votes attached, it won't get attention and where there is no votes, there is no money.

    The penny pinching will come home to roost and the chronic HR and retention issues that have plagued the entire Defence Forces will come home to roost eventually. It might not be a natural disaster, it will be an aircraft accident or a fatality overseas or on exercise and when it does happen the blame game will break out and in a weeks time it'll be old news and nobody will care.

    How much have you seen in the papers recently about the smear tests. Undoubtedly one of the biggest medical scandals in the history of the state. People will die because of it and no one will be held accountable.

    Defence doesn't stand a chance. Particularly because it's run by risk averse, micro managing and self serving civil servants.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Negative_G wrote: »
    Defence doesn't stand a chance. Particularly because it's run by risk averse, micro managing and self serving civil servants.

    And nothing changes, just reading a book on the AC planning and development pre WW2/WW2 and it's virtually no different, no coherent planning, no political support, the Department of Finance denying everything...

    As you say someday something really bad will happen, we've already had an example with the loss of Rescue 116 with the Casa's not available and ATC restrictions and yet nothing happened.

    No different than Mowags in the Golan Heights without any armour upgrades, or the Navy with a ship they can't crew...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    sparky42 wrote: »
    And nothing changes, just reading a book on the AC planning and development pre WW2/WW2 and it's virtually no different, no coherent planning, no political support, the Department of Finance denying everything...

    As you say someday something really bad will happen, we've already had an example with the loss of Rescue 116 with the Casa's not available and ATC restrictions and yet nothing happened.

    No different than Mowags in the Golan Heights without any armour upgrades, or the Navy with a ship they can't crew...

    You are 100% correct. Old habits die hard.

    Be under no illusion. Having a HR crisis suits the Dept. They can say "look, we are still doing all the same jobs (pretty much) so let's continue to downsize, make waves so bad that people won't stay so won't draw a pension".

    There is zero ambition in the Dept of Defence. Absolutely none. The figures speak for themselves.

    This country spent just 0.3% of GDP on defence, which was just half of what was spent by Malta. That Mediterranean island has one-tenth of the population of Ireland.

    Tiny Liechtenstein, with a population of 37,666, managed to spend 0.4% of its GDP on defence.


    https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/irelands-defence-spending-is-lowest-in-europe-at-03-of-gdp-471594.html

    What is incredible is you will still have some who say even that is too much. Worth remembering also that the defence budget is split into two votes with pay and pensions accounting for roughly 70% of the total budget. That leaves approximately €200m to equip, maintain, train, deploy and organization of approximately 9,000 along with all the vehicles, aircraft, vessels and installations around the country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Negative_G wrote: »
    This country spent just 0.3% of GDP on defence, which was just half of what was spent by Malta. That Mediterranean island has one-tenth of the population of Ireland.

    What is incredible is you will still have some who say even that is too much. Worth remembering also that the defence budget is split into two votes with pay and pensions accounting for roughly 70% of the total budget. That leaves approximately €200m to equip, maintain, train, deploy and organization of approximately 9,000 along with all the vehicles, aircraft, vessels and installations around the country.


    When you consider that just 20 years ago we spent 1.2% with an economy and population that was much smaller without any massive strain on the economy the idea that we can't afford more is utter Bull****, as said it comes back to there's no public will to actually have the DF funded more.


    If/when there's a major incident the DF will be blamed, the institutional issues ignored and most likely something else privatised.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    sparky42 wrote: »
    When you consider that just 20 years ago we spent 1.2% with an economy and population that was much smaller without any massive strain on the economy the idea that we can't afford more is utter Bull****, as said it comes back to there's no public will to actually have the DF funded more.


    If/when there's a major incident the DF will be blamed, the institutional issues ignored and most likely something else privatised.

    The issue now as I see it is the rise of social media and the likes of boards etc.

    Every idiot, and I include idiot politicians in that as well has a platform to be heard now and any increase in Defence will be shouted down in favour of hospital beds, homelessness or housing.

    Every decision is a trial by media.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Negative_G wrote: »
    The issue now as I see it is the rise of social media and the likes of boards etc.

    Every idiot, and I include idiot politicians in that as well has a platform to be heard now and any increase in Defence will be shouted down in favour of hospital beds, homelessness or housing.

    Every decision is a trial by media.


    Yep, there's no question that "whataboutism" would be out in full force, and then it would be "whataboutism" in regards to the DF when something goes wrong.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I think the bigger problem is people dont want to pay for anything but expect public services yet somehow. Its hard to believe 112 is going six years


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    sparky42 wrote: »
    I seem to remember something about the RAF getting shirty over local authorities paying for such missions, maybe we offered a better price? (Free)

    Next we will hear is the air corps drafted in to east Belfast to help put out bonfires!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭sparky42


    roadmaster wrote: »
    I think the bigger problem is people dont want to pay for anything but expect public services yet somehow. Its hard to believe 112 is going six years


    It's not new though is it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭sparky42


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Next we will hear is the air corps drafted in to east Belfast to help put out bonfires!


    Oh that would end wonderfully, though given how hard the fire service has been working, it will be a hard night for them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I was on a site today chatting with a few brickes from south armagh and there laughing saying how things have changed that the green helicopters flying around south armagh had tricolours on them!


  • Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Keplar240B


    Whats the story with fire fighting planes ?
    Are they expensive?
    Are they dual use? I mean during the non summer months can you use them for transports?

    If we are going to have more summers like this we could use one or two of them or more helos

    BLM_Firefighting_at_Pine_Mountain%2C_Oregon_%2814186496134%29.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Keplar240B wrote: »
    Whats the story with fire fighting planes ?
    Are they expensive?
    Are they dual use? I mean during the non summer months can you use them for transports?

    If we are going to have more summers like this we could use one or two of them or more helos


    I seem to remember that the 295 can be spec'd as a fire fighter plane, but we all know that wouldn't happen, I suppose the benefit of the helicopters is the ability to quickly resupply and return to the drop site. I mean there were even photo's of the Fire brigade filling areas so the helicopters could refill quickly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Keplar240B


    Been doing some reading on fire-fighting planes there's a whole range of them

    from this polish one (2,200 L)

    800px-PZL_M18B_Dropping_Water.jpg

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL-Mielec_M-18_Dromader

    to the 747_supertanker (74,000 L)

    U.S_Supertanker_during_the_Carmel_forest_fires_in_Israel.jpg

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/747_Supertanker


    Given the size of Irish forests and a light aircraft or helos would be best option.

    That polish one could also be used as a crop duster and trainer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The greeks are asking Europe for as many helicopters as possible to help them out. If the government decided to sent two aw139s and crews to help , would the air corps be in a position to do so or would they be leaving things to short at home


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭sparky42


    roadmaster wrote: »
    The greeks are asking Europe for as many helicopters as possible to help them out. If the government decided to sent two aw139s and crews to help , would the air corps be in a position to do so or would they be leaving things to short at home


    I doubt they could, I mean if you take the medical tasking and perhaps a reserve for that, you are down to 4, add in service rates (given how hard we've been using them the last month maintenance must be building up) and the general tasking we don't have the units to spare I would say.


    Though again that's an area we could have invested in for such occasions that would have been beneficial.


  • Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Keplar240B


    roadmaster wrote: »
    The greeks are asking Europe for as many helicopters as possible to help them out. If the government decided to sent two aw139s and crews to help , would the air corps be in a position to do so or would they be leaving things to short at home


    The aer corps where fighting forest fires in Armagh a few weeks ago.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Keplar240B wrote: »
    The aer corps where fighting forest fires in Armagh a few weeks ago.


    Other than doing all the paperwork duties, doing so isn't "out of home" to be honest, not compared to deploying to the Med.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Looks like the air corps are back up north again fighting fires


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭sparky42


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Looks like the air corps are back up north again fighting fires


    Busy lads, the 139's have certainly been getting a work out this summer. Of course the reality is that this means they aren't available for work with the Army or Navy for training, or response capability given how few we have.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    sparky42 wrote: »
    Busy lads, the 139's have certainly been getting a work out this summer. Of course the reality is that this means they aren't available for work with the Army or Navy for training, or response capability given how few we have.

    Not just 139 there is ec 135 upthere now. I notice this time there not under irl reg but the usual reg they operate under in the republic


  • Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Keplar240B


    How come the Uk government are not giving adequate helo cover to north , During the fodder crisis a while back the aer - corps was in north as well?


    How many litres of water can a -139 helo carry ?
    Lets say they is a lake close to fire. How many refills can it do from that lake before returning to base?
    assuming fire is 100km from base.

    So what would be max litres per sortie figure


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Keplar240B wrote: »
    How come the Uk government are not giving adequate helo cover to north , During the fodder crisis a while back the aer - corps was in north as well?


    How many litres of water can a -139 helo carry ?
    Lets say they is a lake close to fire. How many refills can it do from that lake before returning to base?
    assuming fire is 100km from base.

    So what would be max litres per sortie figure


    I read something a while back that the RAF started getting shirty with local authorities using them and the issue of payment, might well be that we either charge less or not at all for providing services.


    Think the Bambi bucket carriers 1,000 litres per load, as for how many no idea, they did something like 44,000 litres for the fire in Wexford. Besides there are other options as well, think for some of the fires the Fire service filled pits/pools for the AC to fill out of.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    A former ruc man is going to be head Garda , Air corps helicopters operating in the north and welcomed. I have a bad feeling they are softing us up for unification😨


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭sparky42


    roadmaster wrote: »
    A former ruc man is going to be head Garda , Air corps helicopters operating in the north and welcomed. I have bad feeling they are soft if us up for unification 😨


    Bit of an over reaction surely, it's not the first RUC officer to move over, now is it the first time that the AC have gone north.


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