Secondary schools and the law?

Hannaho · 13-03-2019 12:35am #1

My daughter became friends briefly with a girl who is really, in common language a 'headcase.' Last Saturday, my daughter and one of my sons, had 2 friends over each. This girl, we'll call her, Jane, told everyone she could on social media that my daughter was excluding her by not inviting her over to her 'gaffer'/party, and that because she wasn't invitied she couldn't cope with the upset and was going to kill herself, subsequently taking an overdose and landing in A&E. She actually stated this to my daughter in a text, that she took an overdose because she wasn't invitied to my daugher's gaffer. It wasn't a gaffer, and my daugher didn't want to invite her, having recently become increasingly alarmed by this girl's off the wall behaviour.

Lukily my daughter kept all the texts, about 20 of them, and 50 minutes of voice messages to my daughter, and all of them show my daughter being supportive and conciliatory, while the other girl, Jane, bitches about all and sundry.

So, today, I got a call to go into the school for a disicplianry meeting, about a letter this Jane's mother had written about my daughter. My daughter is really upset now. Has anyone been through something previosuly, and has any ideas how to handle this? Don't need the stress of this at all!!

nuac · 13-03-2019 2:15am

Mod
Don't think this comes under legal discussion.
Suggest you talk to the Principal.
imho Jane needs counselling

Peregrinus · 13-03-2019 2:17am

What's your legal issue here?

Alrigghtythen · 13-03-2019 10:28am

By the sounds of things her mother is a headcase too. Who did she write the letter about your daughter to?

The school should see straight through this and hopefully are fully aware of Jane's issues. Your daughter is not responsible for her overdose.

Mr. Incognito · 13-03-2019 10:40am

I would ask someone you know who is sensible or even legally trained to come along as a witness.

I would have the texts printed out to hand to the principal. Do not whip out the phone.

I would keep the voicemails in reserve.

NUTLEY BOY · 13-03-2019 1:33pm

In relation to the school my first step would be to demand of them to know precisely why my daughter was being subjected to a disciplinary meeting.
The school say it is based on a letter. Therefore, I would be demanding sight of that letter before agreeing to attend the so called disciplinary meeting.
I would also be demanding to know precisely what disciplinary infractions are alleged to have occurred.

I would ground my demand on the basis that my daughter is entitled to know the allegation(s) being advanced against her so that she can meet and deal with them adequately as distinct from having them launched on her at a disciplinary meeting. Remember that even the most serious of criminals get notice of the evidence before trial ! BTW I am not calling your daughter anything but presumptively free of any culpability.

Incidentally, I would be alert for the procedural guff that might ensue where the party conducting the hearing reads extracts from the letter that has triggered the hearing or renders an interpretation of the essence of the letter. Selective citation of extracts would just not be acceptable. I would insist on the whole letter being "discovered" to me first. The school will probably cite GDPR for not disclosing :rolleyes: I would react to that by asking them if they wanted me to instruct my solicitor to get it for me by legal methods [don't specify what !].

If by any chance any contact is received from the other girl or anyone on their behalf do not under any circumstances engage with them.

Emphatically +1 to Mr. Incognito's suggestion of bringing along a legally trained person. I would actually bring my solicitor.

Some of the above might sound overly reactive. However, if my daughter's name and disciplinary record are to come under attack at the loose and groundless behest of another party I would take that very seriously. Remember, these types of situations can themselves develop in to social media attacks when launched and propelled by misguided individuals who clearly need help so this needs firm handling.

NUTLEY BOY · 13-03-2019 1:49pm

Supplementary thought.

Be sure to collect the evidence exactly as suggested by Mr. Incognito.

Where I would differ tactically would be not to reveal any of my evidence to the school until I had heard the substance of the complaint and seen the colour of their evidence.

You don't want to give evidence prematurely, or possibly at all, to the opposition if it helps them to "manufacture" a complaint. The other side might not be aware of a lot of relevant information so you don't want to give them a framework around which to build a false narrative whereby they seek to twist the evidence.

Mr. Incognito · 13-03-2019 2:01pm

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

In relation to the school my first step would be to demand of them to know precisely why my daughter was being subjected to a disciplinary meeting.
The school say it is based on a letter. Therefore, I would be demanding sight of that letter before agreeing to attend the so called disciplinary meeting.
I would also be demanding to know precisely what disciplinary infractions are alleged to have occurred.

I would ground my demand on the basis that my daughter is entitled to know the allegation(s) being advanced against her so that she can meet and deal with them adequately as distinct from having them launched on her at a disciplinary meeting. Remember that even the most serious of criminals get notice of the evidence before trial ! BTW I am not calling your daughter anything but presumptively free of any culpability.

Incidentally, I would be alert for the procedural guff that might ensue where the party conducting the hearing reads extracts from the letter that has triggered the hearing or renders an interpretation of the essence of the letter. Selective citation of extracts would just not be acceptable. I would insist on the whole letter being "discovered" to me first. The school will probably cite GDPR for not disclosing :rolleyes: I would react to that by asking them if they wanted me to instruct my solicitor to get it for me by legal methods [don't specify what !].

If by any chance any contact is received from the other girl or anyone on their behalf do not under any circumstances engage with them.

Emphatically +1 to Mr. Incognito's suggestion of bringing along a legally trained person. I would actually bring my solicitor.

Some of the above might sound overly reactive. However, if my daughter's name and disciplinary record are to come under attack at the loose and groundless behest of another party I would take that very seriously. Remember, these types of situations can themselves develop in to social media attacks when launched and propelled by misguided individuals who clearly need help so this needs firm handling.

personally I wouldnt give them an opportunity to mend their hand and would willingly walk into the school knowing they are in breach of fair procedures as the whole process is voidable later if you choose to do so.

Hannaho · 13-03-2019 4:42pm

Thanks you all so much for the advice. The meeting was an hour and a half. After telling me they had a letter from Jane's parent, what they had was a photograph of my daughter holding a banana with Jane's name on it, saying 'eat me.' Now, there is another 'Jane' in the class, and the other Jane's dad always writes her name on her banana for school lunch. My daughter rubbed out the 2nd Jane's second name on the banana and put eat me on it, and took a photo. Now the first Jane, who took an overdose because she was not inivited to a supposed party in our house, went and told her mother that the banana with the words 'eat me' on it were referring to her, and not the second Jane, and that my daughter and my daughter's friend, were making fun of her. Hard to believe that this actually happened all over a banana!!! The first Jane whose banana it was, and all my daughter's friends were able to back up her story. So end of one part of the meeting.

The next part of the meeting, was my email last night which told informed t hem that the first Jane had stated that she had taken an overdose on Saturday night because, she wasn't invited to my daughter's 'gafer.' They didn't seem to think this was a big issue in the beginning. I said that teenagers threatening to harm themselves and blaming it on their teenage friends could cause those teenage friends a lot of distress, including, possibliy causing them to self-harm. I also said that threatening to harm oneself because of not being invited to a party, was extremely manipulataive, and that Jane (1) and her mother should be informed of the hurt and distress that could be caused to other teens by her daughter's actions. They still did't seem to think it was a big issue. Then I mentioned that if these incidents were repeated they could be considered bullying, and that they also fell under emointal abuse and could be referred to Tulsa under Children's First. They said that they could not discipline this girl re threatening suicide over not bieng invited to a party, and then telling lies about other students, as she had a mental health issue. I said I would be writitng to them formally, and want this investigated, as well as the fact that this girl, Jane (1) threatened on social media, to have my daughter and her friend 'jumped.' All in the day of an Irish Secondary School.

Re fair procedures - they stated that they didn't have to give me a letter beforehand staing they requested my presence at a disciplianry meeting, and they didn't have to tell me what the meeting was about beforehand - tried to look through Dept. Ed. webiste for clarificaiton on this, but couldn't find it.

My duaghter was really upset and crying throughout the whole meeting. She wants to change school now, but will anywhere else be any better??

Thanks again for all the comments and advice.

Jurgen Klopp · 13-03-2019 4:49pm

Do you have the screen shot of the post saying she was gonna have them jumped?

If ya so straight to the Gardai with you. Similar happens to my sister's friend in secondary school, the nutcase girl had accusations flying every couple weeks to different girls, she even had a vague post about someone getting s beating. Her mother was storming in every day kicking off about her being bullied despite a different person being accused every second week and loads witnesses showing she was a liar

The cops went straight out and had stern words with the family and they quietened down

Trouble with this sort of craic is under 18s think they can claim all and sundry and get away with it

Also don't worry about Tusla, keep all teh texts and everything and print a hard copy. Worst that will happen is the other girl will end up having to have a social worker herself

Hannaho · 13-03-2019 6:20pm

Thanks Jurgen Klopp. We do have the text, and also some audio, re Jane (1) saying she was trying to get my daughter and her friend jumped. I agree with you about when they're under 18, they can get away with all sorts!! I will definitely report to Tusla. Apparently, the mother of my daughter's friend who was called in also because of Jane (1) allegations, said that this girl has told similar likes previously about other girls in her class. Some people never learn, or maybe their parents don't learn!!

Claw Hammer · 14-03-2019 1:45pm

As a matter of the constitutional right to fair procedures, you have to have proper notice of what you are being accused of at a disciplinary hearing, plus the right to cross examine your accuser. At an investigation it may be that some matters can be withheld while they ask for comments about alleged incidents.

tretorn · 14-03-2019 1:55pm

Can I ask are these parents non nationals.

If they are the school will be bending over backwards not to be accused of allowing racism and then being open to being sued.

Your daughter will be the fall guy in this situation. I would be talking to my solicitor too and demanding that I have sight of all my daughters school records, you dont want any accusations going on school records.

And, No ,why should you daughter move school because of nutjob and her parents.

Claw Hammer · 14-03-2019 2:16pm

You should be sending letters of your own to the school detailing everything that has happened. You should complain about the lack of procedural fairness in writing and outline your daughters complaints in writing. Schools tend to operate on the basis of the squeaky wheel getting the oil. You need to stop taking such a passive attitude.

tretorn · 14-03-2019 2:33pm

How could the meeting last an hour and a half.

Who attended the meeting.

Are phones not banned in school time and if not they should be.

It does sound to me like these are threatening bullying people so of course the girl is going to use whatever means she has learned to get her own way. You will probably find she causes trouble wherever she goes.

I think I would be making a call to a solicitor too, its outrageous that your daughter was dragged into a meeting which caused her such distress and now school are saying they wont take action because of a mental health issue.

I think though the fact that the meeting lasted ninety minutes may mean we arent getting the full story here.

Hannaho · 14-03-2019 10:24pm

Thanks again for all your replies.

More bad news today. My daughter went back to school today - took yesterday off after the meeting. I get a text early afternoon to say tht the girl, Jane (1) had been 'bitching' about my daughter in a group chat, saying that we said awful things to the Principal about her. My daughter ended up in tears again, and went to the Principal about it. The Principal rang the girls, Jane (1)'s mother, who said she was afraid of Jane (1) getting into trouble! The Principal then called Jane (1) into her office, and all the girls who had received her texts in the Group Chat, and ordered them to delete the texts. I'm sure that won't be the end of the texts from this girl. My daughter feels that the school are completeling taking Jane (1)'s side. In answer to a comment made above Jane (1) is irish, not a foreign national. I wrote to them this morning about lack of fair procedures. I have the Tusla form almost completed. I am emailing them tonight to say that my solicitor will be writing to them to ask them what they are doing to prevent this bullying, and how they have investigated and disciplined this girl.

NUTLEY BOY · 15-03-2019 12:53pm

Hannaho wrote: »

Thanks again for all your replies.

More bad news today. My daughter went back to school today - took yesterday off after the meeting. I get a text early afternoon to say tht the girl, Jane (1) had been 'bitching' about my daughter in a group chat, saying that we said awful things to the Principal about her. My daughter ended up in tears again, and went to the Principal about it. The Principal rang the girls, Jane (1)'s mother, who said she was afraid of Jane (1) getting into trouble! The Principal then called Jane (1) into her office, and all the girls who had received her texts in the Group Chat, and ordered them to delete the texts. I'm sure that won't be the end of the texts from this girl. My daughter feels that the school are completeling taking Jane (1)'s side. In answer to a comment made above Jane (1) is irish, not a foreign national. I wrote to them this morning about lack of fair procedures. I have the Tusla form almost completed. I am emailing them tonight to say that my solicitor will be writing to them to ask them what they are doing to prevent this bullying, and how they have investigated and disciplined this girl.

I am sorry to see this heading to the territory of social media attack(s). If there are repeated episodes of social media attacks it would be worth reporting that specific issue to Gardaí.

There is an offence of harassment as per S.10 of the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act 1997. Interestingly, it refers to communications to the person complaining of the harassment as distinct from communications about the person. Does anyone know if there is case law on interpretation of this point ?

S.10.—(1) Any person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, by any means including by use of the telephone, harasses another by persistently following, watching, pestering, besetting or communicating with him or her, shall be guilty of an offence. Link to full section 10 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/section/10/enacted/en/html#sec10

Jane may be what used to be called a "cute headcase" [apologies to the PC brigade :rolleyes:]. She may have a mental problem but be sufficiently clever to be aware of the nature and quality of her acts whilst seeking to hide behind a psychiatric diagnosis. For this reason I would be advising my daughter never to be in a position where she is alone with Jane nor to have any communications whatsoever with J.

P.S. The threat to have your daughter and her friend 'jumped' would also be a separate criminal matter.

beauf · 15-03-2019 1:16pm

The school should have policies around social media and bullying. You should check what they are and if they have followed their own procedures.

gordongekko · 15-03-2019 1:31pm

Maybe show some empathy towards the other child. She has mental health issues and only recently took an overdose. You should be having a conversation with your child to explain to her the need for restraint and compassion towards the other child .

Did you have a conversation with the other child's parents in an effort to find common ground?

RayCun · 15-03-2019 5:41pm

tretorn wrote: »

Can I ask are these parents non nationals.

very quick to blame anti-racism there

Miike · 15-03-2019 6:04pm

gordongekko wrote: »

Maybe show some empathy towards the other child. She has mental health issues and only recently took an overdose. You should be having a conversation with your child to explain to her the need for restraint and compassion towards the other child .

Did you have a conversation with the other child's parents in an effort to find common ground?

Empathy doesn't mean ignoring the fact the child is throwing around wild accusations about another child and having a serious effect on the other child's well-being at this point. That's not empathy nor is it compassion. The other parents have gotten to the point in involving the school and are now saying this ladies daughter is the cause of the other child's suicidal ideation which is a VERY serious thing to say about someone. None less than a child who will be ill equipped to deal with what that entails. This person has a right to defend their child from these accusations.

ShaShaBear · 15-03-2019 6:20pm

gordongekko wrote: »

Maybe show some empathy towards the other child. She has mental health issues and only recently took an overdose. You should be having a conversation with your child to explain to her the need for restraint and compassion towards the other child .

Did you have a conversation with the other child's parents in an effort to find common ground?

I would be showing no empathy to a child at secondary school level who wrongfully accused my daughter of causing her suicide attempt. Something very similar to this happened to my sister in secondary school. A girl who used to be close friends with her was getting increasingly abusive and manipulative - stealing money, verbally and emotionally abusing her and then eventually took to physical abuse. My sister was removed from her company and told to avoid her in school. The teachers were also informed. This girl's sister wrote a letter to my sister stating that the girl had tried to kill herself and was repeatedly harming herself because of what my sister "did" to her, and that if she wasn't punished for it, she'd take care of it herself. This sister was almost twice her age. Needless to say, it took going public with it locally to actually get something done, as the school didn't want to make a fuss out of the bully child with the aggressive sister.

daheff · 15-03-2019 6:33pm

ShaShaBear wrote: »

I would be showing no empathy to a child at secondary school level who wrongfully accused my daughter of causing her suicide attempt.

Agreed. I would have my solicitor send a letter threatening to sue for defamation if she repeats these claims.

I would also have said solicitor write a complaint to the Department of Education & Board of management of the school outlining your childs treatment by the school.

School will bury the problem as much as they can...legal letters to the department & BOM will not be ignored as easily.

Secondary schools and the law?

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