Are Travellers a Separate Ethnic Group?

Eric Cartman · 09-02-2011 11:12pm

Superwhy wrote: »

While all prisons responded to the census request, 3 all-male prisons, with large prisoner populations,
could not identify Traveller prisoners, and the final estimate of males was scaled up to take account of
this. The average estimate of female Traveller prisoners was 21, which was in keeping with the Traveller
families’ AITHS census return (18); the average estimate of male Traveller prisoners was 299, twice that of
the Traveller families’ estimate (150).
Travellers accounted for 8.7% of the prison population according to the IPS, and 4.5% according to
Traveller families. It is not possible to verify which source provides the true number of Travellers in
prison, and subsequent analysis was carried out using both figures.
Based on the IPS estimate of Traveller prisoners, the risk of a Traveller being imprisoned was 11 times
that of a non-Traveller (RR 11.0, 95% CI 9.8-12.3), and for Traveller women the risk was 22 times that
of non-Traveller women (RR 22.0, 95% CI 13.8-35.1) (Table 38). When calculated using the Travellerreported
prisoner population, the risk of a Traveller being imprisoned was more than 5 times that of a
non-Traveller (RR 5.5, 95% CI 4.7-6.4)

From the Traveller All Ireland Health Study

OK WE HAVE THE FIGURES
travellers - 0.5% of the population and roughly 8.7% of the prison population so if travellers were all equal to settled people there wouldnt be that 8.2% there

so statistics prove travellers are more likely to end up in prison and per person commit more crimes

Superwhy · 09-02-2011 11:13pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

+1 its a PC society gone mad , its like blaming ADD for scumbags being scumbags or trying to find a psycologists reason behind everything , some people are just bad people upbringing or not their just bad for society , if somebodys car was burned out in the morning they wouldnt stand there like a freak going 'ohh well somebody probably did this because they didnt have a father in their life as a child' theyd be angry , its all well and good giving a left wing bullsh*t excuse when Its not happening to you , Im willing to bet anyone here trying to defend them has never interacted with more than 5 travellers in their lives

Have you interacted with more than 5 Travellers in your life??

Because I have, I've been to their homes, I've met their families and thats why I'm more open minded about them than you are.

stick shooter · 09-02-2011 11:14pm

Travellers live the life they want to ,No one forces them to live the life of a traveller they choose to , If they had a permanent address it would be a lot harder for them to rob , plunder the social welfare and go around ripping people off . How have they the neck to pull up outside the dole office in a new van and claim social welfare . I have yet to hear of a traveller doing an honest days work ,They have no place in modern day society they are just a plague on society .

Rawhead · 09-02-2011 11:16pm

Superwhy wrote: »

While all prisons responded to the census request, 3 all-male prisons, with large prisoner populations,
could not identify Traveller prisoners, and the final estimate of males was scaled up to take account of
this. The average estimate of female Traveller prisoners was 21, which was in keeping with the Traveller
families’ AITHS census return (18); the average estimate of male Traveller prisoners was 299, twice that of
the Traveller families’ estimate (150).
Travellers accounted for 8.7% of the prison population according to the IPS, and 4.5% according to
Traveller families. It is not possible to verify which source provides the true number of Travellers in
prison, and subsequent analysis was carried out using both figures.
Based on the IPS estimate of Traveller prisoners, the risk of a Traveller being imprisoned was 11 times
that of a non-Traveller (RR 11.0, 95% CI 9.8-12.3), and for Traveller women the risk was 22 times that
of non-Traveller women (RR 22.0, 95% CI 13.8-35.1) (Table 38). When calculated using the Travellerreported
prisoner population, the risk of a Traveller being imprisoned was more than 5 times that of a
non-Traveller (RR 5.5, 95% CI 4.7-6.4)

From the Traveller All Ireland Health Study

I thought you were defending travellers.

I hope you don't go down the road that they are unfairly picked on by the Gardai.

They are 5 times (that would be conservative from my experience) more likely to be imprisoned because they are 5 times more likely to commit crimes.

Superwhy · 09-02-2011 11:16pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

OK WE HAVE THE FIGURES
travellers - 0.5% of the population and roughly 8.7% of the prison population so if travellers were all equal to settled people there wouldnt be that 8.2% there

so statistics prove travellers are more likely to end up in prison and per person commit more crimes

Minority groups are often over-represented in prison. Reasons proposed for over-representation include socio-economic factors, alcohol and other drug misuse and mental health problems (National [Australian] Indigenous Drug and Alcohol Committee, 2009; Department of Corrections [New Zealand], 2008).
It should be borne in mind that in this study more than 99% of Irish Travellers were not in prison.

Ricardo G · 09-02-2011 11:19pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

OK WE HAVE THE FIGURES
travellers - 0.5% of the population and roughly 8.7% of the prison population so if travellers were all equal to settled people there wouldnt be that 8.2% there

so statistics prove travellers are more likely to end up in prison and per person commit more crimes

That arguement is just plain stupid to be honest
If there were an equal amount of travellers as settled people than it would be a 50/50 breakdown......... I dont hear you slating the normal Joe Soap

You seem to have a serious chip on your shoulder regarding travellers yet i bet you've never sat down and had a decent conversation with one ?? Your judging them based on your own ideal opinion

Eric Cartman · 09-02-2011 11:20pm

Superwhy wrote: »

Have you interacted with more than 5 Travellers in your life??

Because I have, I've been to their homes, I've met their families and thats why I'm more open minded about them than you are.

yes I have

when I was a kid we had travellers by the canal in leixlip , theyre kids used to throw stones at us and the gards were always up with them

in the last 2 years of driving travellers (mostly from labre park) have pulled along side me in traffic on 6 occasions and verbally threatened me and held weapons out of car windows at me trying to get my vehicles

I used to go to primary school with a traveller boy , he joined us in 5th class and stayed for 2-3 months before leaving, he used to come into school smoking (this is a 10 year old boy) and steal from the school, the teachers did nothing, everyone tried talking to him to be nice but all he did was spit at people.

I have friends in clane whove had their houses broken into and their cars robbed multiple times all by the same group of travellers

thats enough f*cking evidence for me

wee truck big driver · 09-02-2011 11:20pm

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Any and all traveller bashing will result in Infractions and bans.

some good videos of traveller bashing on you tube i like the one with the fattie aand the bald guy. the bald guy batters forty shades of sh1te out of the fattie

Superwhy · 09-02-2011 11:20pm

Rawhead wrote: »

I thought you were defending travellers.

I hope you don't go down the road that they are unfairly picked on by the Gardai.

They are 5 times (that would be conservative from my experience) more likely to be imprisoned because they are 5 times more likely to commit crimes.

No one asked for your opinion, this was a study done, opinions don't come in to it and thats a ridiculous thing to say - that they are 5 times more likely to commit crimes - just stupid.

Cybertron85 · 09-02-2011 11:21pm

Choosing to live in a caravan and punching your dogs does not constitute a seperate culture.

Ethnicity is a vague area going by that Wikipedia definition.

Race & religion should be more important when the UN starts to dole out extra funds and travellers are not a different race or religion and are as "ethnically" different to the rest of the country as Cork or Kerry people might be.

Total rubbish.

Rawhead · 09-02-2011 11:21pm

Superwhy wrote: »

Minority groups are often over-represented in prison. Reasons proposed for over-representation include socio-economic factors, alcohol and other drug misuse and mental health problems (National [Australian] Indigenous Drug and Alcohol Committee, 2009; Department of Corrections [New Zealand], 2008).
It should be borne in mind that in this study more than 99% of Irish Travellers were not in prison.

I think you need to check your statistics.

If 99% of travellers were not in prison and travellers make up 8.7% then we have an awful lot more travellers than we thought or else the ones who commit crime commit an awful lot of crime, badly.

MagicSean · 09-02-2011 11:22pm

Superwhy wrote: »

Minority groups are often over-represented in prison. Reasons proposed for over-representation include socio-economic factors, alcohol and other drug misuse and mental health problems (National [Australian] Indigenous Drug and Alcohol Committee, 2009; Department of Corrections [New Zealand], 2008).
It should be borne in mind that in this study more than 99% of Irish Travellers were not in prison.

The amount in prison can not be considered comparable to the proportion of crime committed by travelers. A person can commit 25 thefts but still only take up one place in prison. In addition, these figures don't represent the amount of traveller children who are involved in crime which i would expect ot be higher.

Superwhy · 09-02-2011 11:25pm

Rawhead wrote: »

I think you need to check your statistics.

If 99% of travellers were not in prison and travellers make up 8.7% then we have an awful lot more travellers than we thought or else the ones who commit crime commit an awful lot of crime, badly.

I copied and pasted that quote directly from the study so I don't really have to check my facts as they would have done that before publishing it.

They make up 8.7% of the prison population which equals 1% of the Traveller population!

Kasabian · 09-02-2011 11:26pm

Superwhy. I admire your resolve but you are pissing against the wind having a discussion like this in AH.

Eric Cartman · 09-02-2011 11:30pm

Superwhy wrote: »

I copied and pasted that quote directly from the study so I don't really have to check my facts as they would have done that before publishing it.

They make up 8.7% of the prison population which equals 1% of the Traveller population!

if they equal 8.7% of the prison population and thats 1% of their population and their 0.5% of irelands population then the rest of the people in prison = roughly 10% of traveller population, but as travellers are 0.5% of ireland that means that 0.05% of settled people are in prison so the theres still per head a lot more travellers in there but I still think your numbers are wrong

e.g - travellers are 20 times more likely to be in prison according to your figures

Superwhy · 09-02-2011 11:30pm

Kasabian wrote: »

Superwhy. I admire your resolve but you are pissing against the wind having a discussion like this in AH.

Thanks!!

I know you're right.

I don't know why but I actually feel very passionate about this and I've done a lot of research on the Travelling community in the last while so it was nice to share some of the things I've seen, even if no one else got me!

Superwhy · 09-02-2011 11:33pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

if they equal 8.7% of the prison population and thats 1% of their population and their 0.5% of irelands population then the rest of the people in prison = roughly 10% of traveller population, but as travellers are 0.5% of ireland that means that 0.05% of settled people are in prison so the theres still per head a lot more travellers in there but I still think your numbers are wrong

e.g - travellers are 20 times more likely to be in prison according to your figures

They are not my figures! I copied and pasted.

And you make no sense

Kasabian · 09-02-2011 11:33pm

Superwhy wrote: »

Thanks!! I know you're right.

I don't know why but I actually feel very passionate about this and I've done a lot of research on the Travelling community in the last while so it was nice to share some of the things I've seen, even if no one else got me!

I get you but I would I have the bloodline. Best of luck.

kumate_champ07 · 09-02-2011 11:36pm

Ricardo G wrote: »

Of course they have their own ethnic group, they would'nt be called travellers otherwise !! What pizz's me off more than anything though is the fact that they are'nt told to go out and look for work like everyone else given that most are settled now. Why are'nt CAB out asking where these people are getting there new cars/vans/jeeps???? yet the average joe soap is being chased by the revenue for every last hard earned cent. I don't dislike travellers and have no prejudice against them but its one rule for them and settled community pay the price

they are

Eric Cartman · 09-02-2011 11:37pm

Superwhy wrote: »

They are not my figures! I copied and pasted.

And you make no sense

no it makes perfect sense

if 1% of travellers are in prison and travellers are 0.5% of ireland that means 0.005% of ireland is travellers in prison

so 0.005% of our population = 8.7% of our prison population

so 91.3% of the prison population is settled people = 0.05% of our settled population is in prison

0.05% settled in prison
1% of travellers in prison
20 x 0.05 = 1 so per head travellers are 20 times more likely than settled people to be in prison

stick shooter · 09-02-2011 11:38pm

I have met hundreds of travellers and the day you think you can trust then is the day they rob you , they dont leave school at 12 or 13 because of discrimination , They leave to get there second education on how to rob and con . I have worked for them so many times and i have learnt my lesson , They are never to be trusted ,It does not matter how well you know them you are always an outsider , As they call it you are a country feen i think thats how its said because they have there own language . They are the modern day pirates in hiace vans .

Rawhead · 09-02-2011 11:42pm

Superwhy. I do admire your determination also.

My view of travellers is simple, they are not a separate ethnic group. They are Irish people who lost their ties to the land during the famine. They will all be settled in another generation. The older generation may have had a slight claim to a separate identity but today's generation is more like the settled than the travellers. They are involved in drugs, crime and social welfare fraud, so is the regular community. They do face discrimination and prejudice but a lot of it is brought on by their own actions. They need to address some of the appalling practices that they still refuse to condone and then they can start blaming society for not helping them.

Aishae · 09-02-2011 11:58pm

nearly every experience my family had with various members of the travelling community has been bad - my dad has ,met a few through their businesses - like making trailors - that seemed ok.
but he has also had the windscreen on his car broken twice - once with an axe cos the guy was hacked off for no reason. at the time i was a schoolkid - in the front seat of the car at the time.
there used to be loads living by the side of the road up here - they stole petrol out of the cars in the neighbourhood and stole milk from doorsteps - basically anything that wasnt tied down. woe betide anyone that let their dogs roam. had my bike nicked from outside the shop the day i got it - luckily dad saw some traveller kids messing with it near their homes so i got it back.
thats all just the tip of the ice berg.

i was good friends with a settled traveller some years ago when we were teens. she always wanted to see my room and look through my stuff. we were friends for a while. till i found out why she was so interested in my stuff when i visited her house one day i was in her room. maybe she forgot... shed stolden so much from mine. we were no richer than her family.

im very liberal but im also very pro-take responsibility. if they wont even try to conform with the basic rules of society they would over time not be looked at in such a poor light. society already took the first step by doing their best when they want to go to school. the next move is theirs to prove they can be whatever it is theyre looking to ideally aspire to.
that said - there shouldnt be these double standard rules for them and us - with crime, taxes and child care etc. theyre part of the society perks packadge
so this is why i feel no - they arent an ethnic minority - they are a separate group but ethnic suggests a bit more genetic history,

Superwhy · 10-02-2011 12:06am

Rawhead wrote: »

Superwhy. I do admire your determination also.

My view of travellers is simple, they are not a separate ethnic group. They are Irish people who lost their ties to the land during the famine. They will all be settled in another generation. The older generation may have had a slight claim to a separate identity but today's generation is more like the settled than the travellers. They are involved in drugs, crime and social welfare fraud, so is the regular community. They do face discrimination and prejudice but a lot of it is brought on by their own actions. They need to address some of the appalling practices that they still refuse to condone and then they can start blaming society for not helping them.

Firstly, thank you

Secondly, theres no proof Travellers came about because of the famine, theres some documentation that says they were around long before the famine.

Thirdly, I do think they want to be settled. Who wouldn't want a nice house for their kids? But when they marry so young they have no money they end up in caravans because they are cheaper, and nearer their families.

Fourthly, some are involved in crime, drugs and fraud but not as much as everyone is suggesting here. And I think thats down to them being a disadvantaged community, much the same as other disadvantaged areas of society have higher crime and drug rates than others.

Personally, I think education is the key to improving their quality of life but thats not a priority to policy-makers and it is an area that has been constantly cut in the budgets.

And lastly, I don't really know what 'appalling practices that they still refuse to condone' you are talking about.

stick shooter · 10-02-2011 12:10am

They dont want to an active member of irish society but want all the benefits of it ie . social welfare , social housing and anything else they can get there hands on .It suites them to call themselves a separate ethnic group when they have there hand out but thats as far as it goes with them. when us tax payers are paying for them. When is it there turn to put back into society .

MagicSean · 10-02-2011 12:13am

Superwhy wrote: »

Firstly, thank you

Secondly, theres no proof Travellers came about because of the famine, theres some documentation that says they were around long before the famine.

Thirdly, I do think they want to be settled. Who wouldn't want a nice house for their kids? But when they marry so young they have no money they end up in caravans because they are cheaper, and nearer their families.

Fourthly, some are involved in crime, drugs and fraud but not as much as everyone is suggesting here. And I think thats down to them being a disadvantaged community, much the same as other disadvantaged areas of society have higher crime and drug rates than others.

Personally, I think education is the key to improving their quality of life but thats not a priority to policy-makers and it is an area that has been constantly cut in the budgets.

And lastly, I don't really know what 'appalling practices that they still refuse to condone' you are talking about.

Child marraige would be one. I feel quite sorry for children born into traveller society. They have little chance of a normal life.

One of the problems that travellers face is that you are very unlikely to meet a good one. As someone said, travellers don't generally socialise outside their ethnic group so a good one is unlikely to come into much contact with you. The only ones you are likely to meet are the bad ones. It's an odd situation really.

Cybertron85 · 10-02-2011 12:16am

They're not inherently or genetically bad people, they just need to be settled first, educated second. They can never be educated to the same standard as settled people if they're constantly moving around the country.

dark crystal · 10-02-2011 12:25am

Superwhy wrote: »

Personally, I think education is the key to improving their quality of life but thats not a priority to policy-makers and it is an area that has been constantly cut in the budgets.

It's not the policy makers job to ensure traveller children get an education - it's their parents job.

In the local school here, the travellers get a free bus to and from school every day. my daughters don't.

One of my daughters spent a week off school last year due to illness (which the school were fully informed of). At the end of term, I received a letter stating that if she took more than 20 days off in any school year, she would be reported. At the same time, a traveller girl in her class spent less than two months in the classroom, but received no such letter (according to her teacher).

Many travellers are illiterate because of the lack of interest shown by their families in educating them from an early age. How on earth can this be blamed on the authorities?

I really wish traveller interest groups would stop campaigning so hard for equal rights and special treatment from the government and spend more time getting their own priorities straight. They want so much, but give back so little....

stick shooter · 10-02-2011 12:25am

Bull . I know of plenty of settled travellers that have lived at the one address for over 20 years and the education is still the same . So it is down to the breeding and how they are brought up . There is no class distinction between traveller and settled in the eduction system . Its the life the choose to live . They are not made by society to live the way they do . Do you think even with out eduction someone does not know between right and wrong ??

Gordon Gecko · 10-02-2011 12:34am

They have a culture of theft and crime in their community. It's basically Moyross on wheels.

Are Travellers a Separate Ethnic Group?

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