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Performance based pay scale

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    #32
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,394 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    I teach coding. I learned a bit in college and more in a postgrad. Saying someone who has a degree in Geography from 25 years ago should go back and do a four year degree in computer science is madness. They probably don't have the interest, programming is a language, well a series of languages so more difficult to learn as you get older and more importantly, people with degrees in computer science won't generally work in schools because the pay and conditions compared to the private sector are not even in the same league.

    Rightly the focus for young children is on literacy and numeracy, to learn to code (and they wouldn't start with Java) they need half decent maths and to understand iterative thinking. This is not even including the fact that kids spend enough time online as is. The short course in JC for coding is there for those who are interested, I teach it and it's a great little course but I like robotics, coding and digital technologies, there would be little point me teaching it if I loathed the. This is a mad suggestion!


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    #33
    afkasurfjunkie
    Registered Users Posts: 771 ✭✭✭afkasurfjunkie


    Man with broke phone wrote: »
    But we could have all studied computer programming if we didnt have to pay norma the geography teacher a years wage. Imagine telling the union that Norma needs to up skill because the kids can find out what a meander is on the internet If they are that bothered. Norma needs to learn javascript. Surely if teachers are worthy of of a grand or so a week they should be able to change over subjects when times change. Computer language and maths basics should be a core subject from first year instead of irish.
    The whole culture needs a shake up

    If you could just point me in the direction of the teacher earning a grand per week, that’d be great thanks.


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    #34
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Man with broke phone wrote: »
    But we could have all studied computer programming if we didnt have to pay norma the geography teacher a years wage. Imagine telling the union that Norma needs to up skill because the kids can find out what a meander is on the internet If they are that bothered. Norma needs to learn javascript. Surely if teachers are worthy of of a grand or so a week they should be able to change over subjects when times change. Computer language and maths basics should be a core subject from first year instead of irish.
    The whole culture needs a shake up

    You said you were in school 25 years ago. I'd love to see the school that was equipped to teach computer programming in 1995. The fact that home PCs weren't even the norm seems to be lost on you.

    The kids that can look up meanders on the internet can also look up javascript.

    Suggesting that teachers just 'change over subjects' is madness. If they did that you'd be complaining that they weren't qualified to teach and were rubbish at it.

    And maths has been a core subject since the dawn of time.


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    #35
    Man with broke phone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭Man with broke phone


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    You said you were in school 25 years ago. I'd love to see the school that was equipped to teach computer programming in 1995. The fact that home PCs weren't even the norm seems to be lost on you.

    The kids that can look up meanders on the internet can also look up javascript.

    Suggesting that teachers just 'change over subjects' is madness. If they did that you'd be complaining that they weren't qualified to teach and were rubbish at it.

    And maths has been a core subject since the dawn of time.

    You see it's just constant reasons why we cant do things. There is never solutions with well unionized equal pay depending on length of service organisations. It's like the canteen is told to turtle up and refuse everything until we see whether we can get radio support, a soft minister and a pay rise.

    You never hear of teachers coming forward with ideas it's always a story of how it wont work, how the teacher is only looking out for the students and worried about their junior certs. I'd say places like Pakistan and india have java trained people with good english that would dive at the chance to come here and replace geography teachers.

    The only thing stopping us becoming the tech capital of the world is the teachers union and a bit of initiative. Instead we will have a country full of boys and girls that know the difference between a stalagmite and a stalagtite and for one glorious summer will be able to have a small conversation in Irish before they forget it forever.


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    #36
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Man with broke phone wrote: »
    You see it's just constant reasons why we cant do things. There is never solutions with well unionized equal pay depending on length of service organisations. It's like the canteen is told to turtle up and refuse everything until we see whether we can get radio support, a soft minister and a pay rise.

    You never hear of teachers coming forward with ideas it's always a story of how it wont work, how the teacher is only looking out for the students and worried about their junior certs. I'd say places like Pakistan and india have java trained people with good english that would dive at the chance to come here and replace geography teachers.

    The only thing stopping us becoming the tech capital of the world is the teachers union and a bit of initiative. Instead we will have a country full of boys and girls that know the difference between a stalagmite and a stalagtite and for one glorious summer will be able to have a small conversation in Irish before they forget it forever.

    Nope. It isn't. Computer Science is available as a Leaving Cert subject. I never said we couldn't do it, you just invented that narrative.


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    #37
    Man with broke phone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭Man with broke phone


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Nope. It isn't. Computer Science is available as a Leaving Cert subject. I never said we couldn't do it, you just invented that narrative.

    It should be a core subject in every school not on the same par as tech drawing in a percentage of schools.

    Should replace irish and geography and have double classes each day. From first year. Teachers can up skill or move on


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    #38
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,394 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    Do you program? Do you know a lot of programmers? I can guarantee you, from experience, none of them think what your suggesting is a good idea. At the level we need programmers in Ireland, in development and fintech (i.e not using Java ) you need broadly educated problem solvers. Rounded education tends to produce these. It's actually not very hard to learn to programme yourself if you have a good standard of maths, a decent grasp of language and a very robust attitude to failure. I have several kids I teach who were already messing with programming before they got to me in Secondary. I'm not sure you quite grasp what's involved in programming at all really. Half the kids in our school do it as a short course, most like it. They also do robotics and horticulture and other enriching subjects, all courses offered by motivated teacher who have to design the courses themselves.

    I really think you had a bad experience in school and I'm sorry but schools now are generally not like this. DEIS really was a game changer funding wise, I get to have thousands of Euros of state of the art robotics equipment because of this. Also we have smaller classes, home school, behaviour for learning and so much more. This didn't exist when you were in school and it might be worth looking into these to see how much education has changed


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    #39
    Man with broke phone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭Man with broke phone


    Programmers think they are more special than they are. I it became second nature to all kids over the next generation or two it would be nothing more than using Yahoo email was to my generation. O course a few people would be special but the majority could work under guidance. The top fellas looking after the day to day mechanical work kn all the big hotels in Dublin are experienced plumbers with an engineer dropping in on them weekly. If you said this 50 years ago you would be laughed at.

    But again it goes back to you giving me excuses why it cant happen and not you telling me how we can make it happen. You are supposed to be a genius, you have a degree. Can you not come up with a plan to have kids coming out of secondary school ready to go into entry level computer jobs?


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    #40
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,394 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    I fundamentally disagree with you on what education is for so this is probably a pointless conversation

    I could come up with a curriculum that would produce lots of averagely competent programmers that couldn't solve a problem but that's not what the market wants in Ireland because the cost of living is too high hence why we outsource low level coding to India and Pakistan. I also don't want to do this because we also need doctors, cleaners, lab technicians, nurses, accountants, inovators, writers, artists and everything in between to make this world work and to make it bearable. Education is not the filling of a pail, it's the lighting of a fire


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    #41
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,394 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    Also I think these are the lads your annoyed at www.ncca.ie - most not teachers


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    #42
    Man with broke phone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭Man with broke phone


    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    Also I think these are the lads your annoyed at www.ncca.ie - most not teachers

    Your link is broke, just like the system. And I think you become a problem solver when you understand the problem very well. That's all down to teaching. You dont just show a problem solver how to code.


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    #43
    quietsailor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭quietsailor


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    You said you were in school 25 years ago. I'd love to see the school that was equipped to teach computer programming in 1995. The fact that home PCs weren't even the norm seems to be lost on you.

    The kids that can look up meanders on the internet can also look up javascript.

    Suggesting that teachers just 'change over subjects' is madness. If they did that you'd be complaining that they weren't qualified to teach and were rubbish at it.

    And maths has been a core subject since the dawn of time.

    My secondary was teaching computer coding back in 1994 or 1995. So it did exist. Our physics teacher was the instructor.


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    #44
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,394 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    Man with broke phone wrote: »
    Your link is broke, just like the system. And I think you become a problem solver when you understand the problem very well. That's all down to teaching. You dont just show a problem solver how to code.

    The link works fine

    And yes you do. I literally taught myself as did most people I know who work as programmers. It's quite common. You have to constantly learn new languages and versions......programming is not french


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    #45
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Man with broke phone wrote: »
    Programmers think they are more special than they are. I it became second nature to all kids over the next generation or two it would be nothing more than using Yahoo email was to my generation. O course a few people would be special but the majority could work under guidance. The top fellas looking after the day to day mechanical work kn all the big hotels in Dublin are experienced plumbers with an engineer dropping in on them weekly. If you said this 50 years ago you would be laughed at.

    But again it goes back to you giving me excuses why it cant happen and not you telling me how we can make it happen. You are supposed to be a genius, you have a degree. Can you not come up with a plan to have kids coming out of secondary school ready to go into entry level computer jobs?

    You're talking about vocational education there ted.


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    #46
    Man with broke phone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭Man with broke phone


    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    The link works fine

    And yes you do. I literally taught myself as did most people I know who work as programmers. It's quite common. You have to constantly learn new languages and versions......programming is not french

    The reason you had to teach yourself is because ................................... come on now, think about it


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    #47
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,115 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Smell of troll here, with overtones of teacher goading.

    Thanks to those who reported.

    Closing the thread.


This discussion has been closed.
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