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25-03-2020, 15:02   #46
Charles Babbage
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The Californian and its place in the this event are weird to me. Yes the crew as whole aren't to blame but Stanley lord till the day he died was trying to fix his reputation. Wasn't it always the case the the crew told him of the rockets but didn't push the issue ?

The point about the rockets that struck me was that there seemed to scope for interpretation of the rockets, which meant that there didn't seem to be a clear signalling code for rockets, akin to SOS or CQD. Like an international convention that 3 red rockets meant distress and come immediately.

Was there no such convention?
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25-03-2020, 15:04   #47
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https://www.titanicinquiry.org/downloads.php

If anyone wants to read about the British and American inquiries to the disaster the link above has them. I used to have them in book form but a burst can of coke in a bag wrecked them.
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25-03-2020, 15:07   #48
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The point about the rockets that struck me was that there seemed to scope for interpretation of the rockets, which meant that there didn't seem to be a clear signalling code for rockets, akin to SOS or CQD. Like an international convention that 3 red rockets meant distress and come immediately.

Was there no such convention?
There were company rockets but titanic was firing white rockets not red ones.
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25-03-2020, 18:19   #49
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Why didn't they rivet the lanels correctly?

And tell us more about the illegal trawer and its crew, I've never heard of them and I've a few books read on the titanic
It was to do with the political forces and loyalty in the dockyards and amongst the different ( trades/working) crews in the shipyard at the time. The workers could not afford to strike or lose their jobs (look what happened an organised strike with huge support and milomentum at the time with Jim Larkin ) but up north it was extremely volatile at the time - you’d need to google your IPP, Home Rule , Redmond and Carson history to get a sense of it. Suffice to say sime of the crews dis not complete the job properly in whole lengths of the Titanic where the rivets were not finished securely - a firm of industrial sabotage/ political protest that had an impact on the stability and ability of the T to withstand the forces of that night.

The boats that spotted the rockets and eventually came to the rescue of the Titanic both swore in the inquest/ investigation that there had been a third trawler much closer to the lifeboats in the area that night. She was fishing illegally. Many survivors swore and testified to seeing a white trawlers light in the vacinity - both captains of the carpathia and the california also said there had been another boat - a fishing boat or trawler at least an hours distance from them. It remains one of the hidden maritime mysteries who this boat and her crew was. Had they gone to the pightbiats rescue many of those who frize to death in the lifeboats would have been saved. She has never been identified.
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25-03-2020, 18:24   #50
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I had a nerdy interest in this years ago but am in the wrong house to identify the books! Suffice to say that when i visited the Titanic museum a few years back with my sterling clenched in my hand I was devastated at the quality of the books in their giftshop - I was planning on doing a whole lot of new nerdy book purchasing - turned out I had better ones at home and a much greater selection!!!! One I loved had the complete inventory lists for the maiden voyage in it - a bit OCD but amazing reading!!
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25-03-2020, 18:33   #51
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The bulkhead may have played a part but I think it's given too much weight.
I agree completely, I believe it was a factor in that it probably weakened the structure and possibly took some attention away from other day to day duties, but most of the other major factors are more relevant in my view.

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Well that reply to the Californian was in part because the machine had been broken the day before so they were making up the back log of telegrams they were sending. It's another what if because if they hadn't been swampt it's likely the ice warning may have gotten to the captain and maybe things would have turned out differently.
Yes I remember reading that they were swamped and under pressure so I understand Philip being abrupt. I think it was just a frustrated young man who made another error in a long string of errors which caused the accident.

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I think titanic had more lifeboats than was required at the time given its tonnage which is how it was calculated. There was provision for more but it wasn't required or wanted so there weren't enough.

The tragedy may have had a good outcome in that after there was a requirement for a 24 hour wireless at sea.
I think nobody is at fault for the above 2 issues really, it was very standard practice at the time not to carry enough lifeboats for everyone as the thinking was to make ships so safe that you don't need lifeboats, and yes I believe the Titanic actually carried more lifeboats than required by law.

Same goes for the lack of a 24hr wireless service, this was not required under law.

If the Titanic tragedy done any good at all, at least it corrected these 2 issues, pity it took such a horrible tragedy though!

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The Californian and its place in the this event are weird to me. Yes the crew as whole aren't to blame but Stanley lord till the day he died was trying to fix his reputation. Wasn't it always the case the the crew told him of the rockets but didn't push the issue ?
I think the role of the Californian and Stanley Lord is one of the most fascinating parts of this tragedy and I still don't fully know how I feel about it. Again I certainly wouldn't blame them for the tragedy, they were not in charge of the Titanic end of, but they turned a blind eye to a nearby ship that was listing and firing rockets, by any standards that is negligent.

I think undoubtedly 2nd Officer Stone was weak in the whole thing, I'd like to believe I'd have been more inquisitive in his position and pressed the issue, but that's very easy to say in hindsight. Same goes for Captain Lord, but if nothing else would curiosity not have stirred him out of bed?

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Yeah poor murdooch was in the wrong place at the wrong time. If it wasn't him on the bridge at the time of the accident it would have been someone else.
I agree completely, I've never really considered him responsible, he did his best in a horrible situation, whereas many others could have been frozen with fear/shock.

Last edited by Huntergonzo; 25-03-2020 at 19:51.
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25-03-2020, 18:34   #52
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If you look closely at the cctv footage of the sinking,. it's obvious to anyone with a brain that there is 2 controlled explosions immediately as it just gently brushes of the iceberg....also I heard from a good source that 2 days before the sinking a drone was seen at the very spot where the Titanic struck the 'iceberg'!?
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25-03-2020, 18:43   #53
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https://www.titanicinquiry.org/downloads.php

If anyone wants to read about the British and American inquiries to the disaster the link above has them. I used to have them in book form but a burst can of coke in a bag wrecked them.
Haha bloody coke!!

I used to read through inquiries online a few years ago, some great information in there in fairness. It was turned into a short film for tv in 2012 called 'Save Our Souls: The Titanic Inquiry' which was quite good, it was basically the testimony of the Californian crew during the British enquiry.

Also just on the topic, a decent book to read regarding the role of both the Carpathia and the Californian is 'The Other Side Of The Night: The Carpathia, the Californian, and the Night the Titanic was Lost' by Daniel Allen Butler.

It focuses on the role of both those ships on the night, well worth a read for those who are interested.
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25-03-2020, 18:45   #54
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It was to do with the political forces and loyalty in the dockyards and amongst the different ( trades/working) crews in the shipyard at the time. The workers could not afford to strike or lose their jobs (look what happened an organised strike with huge support and milomentum at the time with Jim Larkin ) but up north it was extremely volatile at the time - you’d need to google your IPP, Home Rule , Redmond and Carson history to get a sense of it. Suffice to say sime of the crews dis not complete the job properly in whole lengths of the Titanic where the rivets were not finished securely - a firm of industrial sabotage/ political protest that had an impact on the stability and ability of the T to withstand the forces of that night.

The boats that spotted the rockets and eventually came to the rescue of the Titanic both swore in the inquest/ investigation that there had been a third trawler much closer to the lifeboats in the area that night. She was fishing illegally. Many survivors swore and testified to seeing a white trawlers light in the vacinity - both captains of the carpathia and the california also said there had been another boat - a fishing boat or trawler at least an hours distance from them. It remains one of the hidden maritime mysteries who this boat and her crew was. Had they gone to the pightbiats rescue many of those who frize to death in the lifeboats would have been saved. She has never been identified.
Great answer, thank you
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25-03-2020, 19:23   #55
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There were company rockets but titanic was firing white rockets not red ones.

But was there no set of flares that ships carried pre wireless which said I'm in distress, come immediately or sooner?
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25-03-2020, 20:45   #56
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If you look closely at the cctv footage of the sinking,. it's obvious to anyone with a brain that there is 2 controlled explosions immediately as it just gently brushes of the iceberg....also I heard from a good source that 2 days before the sinking a drone was seen at the very spot where the Titanic struck the 'iceberg'!?
There are many theories surrounding the Titanic’s demise, none of which have proven conclusive but one thing remains it was a sinking of epic proportions as one of the greatest tragedies to plague our collective psyche which for now will remain....unexplained
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25-03-2020, 22:23   #57
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I have a book where the news papers of the day have been reproduced in full and it's an amazing time capsule of the world in the week leading up to the sinking and after it. I also have reproduction of posters made for the first sailing and eerily enough the first sailing from New York on April 20th, 1912 which obviously never happened.
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25-03-2020, 22:56   #58
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If that upstart Jack Dawson didn't distract the ships officials from their duties it might have been a whole different story.
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25-03-2020, 23:01   #59
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Haha bloody coke!!

I used to read through inquiries online a few years ago, some great information in there in fairness. It was turned into a short film for tv in 2012 called 'Save Our Souls: The Titanic Inquiry' which was quite good, it was basically the testimony of the Californian crew during the British enquiry.

Also just on the topic, a decent book to read regarding the role of both the Carpathia and the Californian is 'The Other Side Of The Night: The Carpathia, the Californian, and the Night the Titanic was Lost' by Daniel Allen Butler.

It focuses on the role of both those ships on the night, well worth a read for those who are interested.
Was that the film where it implies some coordination between the crew of the Californian. Coordination in regards to the testimony at the inquiry.

Last edited by Itssoeasy; 25-03-2020 at 23:06.
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25-03-2020, 23:23   #60
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Was that the film where it implies some coordination between the crew of the Californian. Coordination in regards to the testimony at the inquiry.
That's the one.

It doesn't exactly paint the Californian crew in a great light and it is quite dramatic in parts, but sure look that's tv, it's gonna happen.

A large chunk of the dialog was taken directly from the actual British enquiry though which was good.
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