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title question - ceiling height

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  • 25-10-2020 3:43pm
    #1
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭


    had a surveyor carry out an inspection on a house which my mother is trying to buy yesterday

    a few breaches which are relatively easy to put right but one which is not

    the floor to ceiling heights upstairs is only 2350 mm where as the minimum height to meet regulations is 2400 mm

    my mother is a cash buyer so not an issue , however , if a buyer were a mortgage purchaser , would a breach like this prevent mortgage approval by a lender ?

    if so , i think a discount is warranted here ?


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    #2
    nuac
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    Mod
    Matter for a surveyor but will leave open for discussion subject to forum rules


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    #3
    Lenar3556
    Registered Users Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    If you look hard enough, you will generally find many ‘variations’ to guidelines and regulations when you look to purchase second hand property, particularly as it gets older. It’s a question of quantifying these matters and factoring the implications and level of risk into your overall decision making process.

    As far as I know, the min 2.4M features in one of the Technical Guidance Documents as a recommended minimum ceiling height. While the TGD’s are well recognised and authoritative documents, they have in themselves no statutory standing and so I think it’s somewhat of a stretch to say that the ceiling height you describe is a breach of building regulations. Poor design/building practise would be a better description.

    I’d be more concerned that a satisfactory certificate of compliance was in existence when considering the resale implications arising from a matter like the above.

    Chances of a future buyer being denied a mortgage to buy, arising from the matter in isolation - very low.


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    #4
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,282 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Ive regularly found this issue when surveying and would always report it as a Building Regulation Compliance issue and further explain that Building Regulation suggests a minimum of 2.4m other thsn at local obstructions.
    No matter how strongly i have worded this over the years, ive not seen it stop a sale but personally i wouldnt buy such a property.


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    #5
    Yyhhuuu
    Registered Users Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Yyhhuuu


    The ceiling height in my house is roughly 10ft. It's a period property. It makes the rooms appear quite more spacious.


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    #6
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Yyhhuuu wrote: »
    The ceiling height in my house is roughly 10ft. It's a period property. It makes the rooms appear quite more spacious.

    10 ft is 3000 mm

    This is about not meeting the 2400 mm regulation


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    #7
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    If it is very unlikely to block a mortgage application? , there is no issue as 50 mm is nothing


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    #8
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,078 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    If it is very unlikely to block a mortgage application? , there is no issue as 50 mm is nothing

    That's a very definitive statement based on a fallacy.

    At what point does it become an issue? 51mm?

    I know of a situation where people have been sued for similar measurements


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    #9
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,209 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Is the house older than the building regulations. This is often a factor. Stairs will regularly be outside regulation on older houses. I

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #10
    Bullocks
    Registered Users Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭Bullocks


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    If it is very unlikely to block a mortgage application? , there is no issue as 50 mm is nothing

    As an old boss of mine used to say "it would be alot on the end of a mouses flute"!


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    #11
    Corkblowin
    Registered Users Posts: 622 ✭✭✭Corkblowin


    While you may decide it’s not an issue for you - you need to consider how it may affect the value of any future sales - The problem is not going away just because of a discount in the price.


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    #12
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    That's a very definitive statement based on a fallacy.

    At what point does it become an issue? 51mm?

    I know of a situation where people have been sued for similar measurements

    ive no agenda here bar learning , i said it wont make a difference in practical terms for my mother and she is a cash buyer , others have said that the shortfall would not stand in the way of a mortgage approval ?

    i opened the thread to enquire about whether it would ?


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    #13
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Corkblowin wrote: »
    While you may decide it’s not an issue for you - you need to consider how it may affect the value of any future sales - The problem is not going away just because of a discount in the price.

    well many houses have irregularities , i suppose its about how much emphasis you place on them , a discount is often a way of compensating for a shortcoming ?

    my mother does not want to loose the house and of course the vendor could absolutely decide not to sell

    my question here specifically relates to whether or not such an irregularity would put the brakes on mortgage approval from a bank ?

    feedback appears to suggest it would not ?


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    #14
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,209 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    well many houses have irregularities , i suppose its about how much emphasis you place on them , a discount is often a way of compensating for a shortcoming ?

    my mother does not want to loose the house and of course the vendor could absolutely decide not to sell

    my question here specifically relates to whether or not such an irregularity would put the brakes on mortgage approval from a bank ?

    feedback appears to suggest it would not ?

    His old is the house

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #15
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    His old is the house

    built in 1999


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    #16
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,078 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    ive no agenda here bar learning , i said it wont make a difference in practical terms for my mother and she is a cash buyer , others have said that the shortfall would not stand in the way of a mortgage approval ?

    i opened the thread to enquire about whether it would ?

    I'm not suggesting you do, Im just picking up on the point of you saying it's not an issue, when for a lot of people it would be.

    I have seen it happen quite often that a carpenter installs the ceiling joists of a dormer roof at 2.4m high, thinking grand that's the reg..... But doesn't leave anything to allow for a floor covering and crying plasterboard.... Which means the final measurement can be 2.35m

    For some purchasers that could be a reason to walk from the property, and for some banks solicitors that could be reason to refuse mortgage on a property.
    For a lot though, it's wouldn't be seen as a big issue.

    Your mother needs to realise this though


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    #17
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    I'm not suggesting you do, Im just picking up on the point of you saying it's not an issue, when for a lot of people it would be.

    I have seen it happen quite often that a carpenter installs the ceiling joists of a dormer roof at 2.4m high, thinking grand that's the reg..... But doesn't leave anything to allow for a floor covering and crying plasterboard.... Which means the final measurement can be 2.35m

    For some purchasers that could be a reason to walk from the property, and for some banks solicitors that could be reason to refuse mortgage on a property.
    For a lot though, it's wouldn't be seen as a big issue.

    Your mother needs to realise this though


    well i can put it to the auctioneer that it could well block a sale through typical mortgage applications , see what they say


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    #18
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,209 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    built in 1999

    It predates present building regulations as far as I know. It is the same with the stairs rule. It not going to stop a sale at any stage in my opinion. New houses are build to the new regulations older houses are not bound by them. I did up an old farm house lately. Most I could get in the down stairs was 2.1m. New stairs is not as steep as old stairs but still not compliant. Only way to make older houses compliant is to knock and to rebuild. That not going to happen. I say 1970's houses with 2.25M ceilings upstairs thety will not be knocked.

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #19
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,282 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    It predates present building regulations as far as I know. It is the same with the stairs rule. It not going to stop a sale at any stage in my opinion. New houses are build to the new regulations older houses are not bound by them. I did up an old farm house lately. Most I could get in the down stairs was 2.1m. New stairs is not as steep as old stairs but still not compliant. Only way to make older houses compliant is to knock and to rebuild. That not going to happen. I say 1970's houses with 2.25M ceilings upstairs thety will not be knocked.

    2.4m is in Building Regulations Part F since 1991 so your argument is not valid here.


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    #20
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I would have thought not much point putting it to the estate agent ,they're not gonna tell you much ,or do much , I think I'd talk to your surveyer, ask in his opinion does that hold up sales , and would it be likely to stop a bank offering a mortgage ?
    If its gonna worry your mam ,pull out of the sale ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #21
    Yyhhuuu
    Registered Users Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Yyhhuuu


    My house is Edwardian period with circa 10 ft ceilings which increase the perceived size of it's already large rooms.. It would be utter madness to suggest this feature would not comply with contemporaneous building regulations and effect a mortgage application etc. The only issue I see is heating.


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    #22
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Yyhhuuu wrote: »
    My house is Edwardian period with circa 10 ft ceilings which increase the perceived size of it's already large rooms.. It would be utter madness to suggest this feature would not comply with contemporaneous building regulations and effect a mortgage application etc. The only issue I see is heating.

    I don't think anyone is suggesting that ... The ceiling that the op is asking about is 50mm less than regs ,
    Yours is more ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #23
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,285 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    I think there is a matter of materiality at play. Some of the reasons to have a 2.4m ceiling would include keeping tall people clear of hanging light fittings, allowing bunk beds to be used without banging heads and allowing curtains to be fitted to the heads of windows. The matter of roof joists resting on lintels may be another, but that can be avoided.

    The matter could be rectified by raising the ceiling, but that would involve an engineer approving a design and having the space to do it. If there isn't much space, things become expensive very quickly.

    If push comes to shove, it's own to getting approval from the council and An Bord Pleanála.
    Yyhhuuu wrote: »
    My house is Edwardian period with circa 10 ft ceilings which increase the perceived size of it's already large rooms.. It would be utter madness to suggest this feature would not comply with contemporaneous building regulations

    I don't think there were any building regulations circa 1900. There were building bye-laws in Cork and Dublin from about the 1940s and building regulations for the whole country from the 1990s - those are relevant to the OP's property from 1999.


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    #24
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Yyhhuuu wrote: »
    My house is Edwardian period with circa 10 ft ceilings which increase the perceived size of it's already large rooms.. It would be utter madness to suggest this feature would not comply with contemporaneous building regulations and effect a mortgage application etc. The only issue I see is heating.
    That's twice now you have misunderstood the crux of the thread


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    #25
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,078 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Yyhhuuu wrote: »
    My house is Edwardian period with circa 10 ft ceilings which increase the perceived size of it's already large rooms.. It would be utter madness to suggest this feature would not comply with contemporaneous building regulations and effect a mortgage application etc. The only issue I see is heating.

    Second time you've posted completely useless info that has nothing at all to do with the thread
    One might think you are just trolling....


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    #26
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    My solicitor thinks its a significant issue and that any breach of regulations would require " a qualifier on title with a bank" ?

    Of course a solicitor has nothing to loose by saying it's a significant issue and a lot to loose by saying it's fine?

    It won't be my call ,I've one sister who will say buy anyway and another who is ultra cautious and say no


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    #27
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    got this earlier from the vendor through the EA

    " the architect who designed and managed the build of the property. He said the 2.4m height is at building finish so would not take in to account the floor finish (or the skim on the ceiling over the plasterboard).

    The timber frame was constructed to a 2.4m ceiling height(at the first floor level) in line with Building Regs at that time.

    It is a solid oak floorboard throughout the house.
    There is also a ply sub floor as a result of it being UFH.

    Hopefully this clarification answers the query. "


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    #28
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Following with some interest. My own anecdote is the ceilings upstairs go into the roof curve slightly. It was pointed out when we got the survey done and no one (bank, solicitor etc.) ever mentioned it. House was built in 2002 but had to be the same height as the existing row of houses. Probably of naff all use to you but sharing is caring and all that :pac:


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    #29
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,285 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Following with some interest. My own anecdote is the ceilings upstairs go into the roof curve slightly. It was pointed out when we got the survey done and no one (bank, solicitor etc.) ever mentioned it. House was built in 2002 but had to be the same height as the existing row of houses. Probably of naff all use to you but sharing is caring and all that :pac:

    This is tolerated to a certain extent. Most of the room needs to have an adequate height and the lower section needs to have a certain minimum.


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    #30
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,282 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    got this earlier from the vendor through the EA

    " the architect who designed and managed the build of the property. He said the 2.4m height is at building finish so would not take in to account the floor finish (or the skim on the ceiling over the plasterboard).

    The timber frame was constructed to a 2.4m ceiling height(at the first floor level) in line with Building Regs at that time.

    It is a solid oak floorboard throughout the house.
    There is also a ply sub floor as a result of it being UFH.

    Hopefully this clarification answers the query. "

    Id agree that some unforeseen added floor finishes could reduce the available heights,
    but the 2.4m should be finished building.
    If additional floor build up was required as part of original works, then this should have been accounted for.
    Mentioning skim thickness is just taking the piss.
    Anyone sensible would be designing to a finished height of 2450 to allow for additional finishes.
    If its a timber frame build, it looks like it was poorly managed with floor build up being altered at a late stage when no allowance could be made to the structural frame.


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    #31
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    mickdw wrote: »
    Id agree that some unforeseen added floor finishes could reduce the available heights,
    but the 2.4m should be finished building.
    If additional floor build up was required as part of original works, then this should have been accounted for.
    Mentioning skim thickness is just taking the piss.
    Anyone sensible would be designing to a finished height of 2450 to allow for additional finishes.
    If its a timber frame build, it looks like it was poorly managed with floor build up being altered at a late stage when no allowance could be made to the structural frame.

    the surveyor praised the build otherwise , my mother is proceeding anyway as she really wants the house , doesnt want to run the risk of the higher mortgage bidder getting it


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