Slane by-pass and the Archaeology beneth

Bog Butter · 24-01-2010 5:50pm #1

Just thought i'd open a thread on the Slane by-pass. Under its current form it will run within 500m of the Brú na Bóinne buffer zone. Obviously there is good potential for archaeology to be uncovered. Therefore the excavations should add nicely to the archaeological record of the Boyne valley. No doubt some people will be against it.

Riamfada · 24-01-2010 6:37pm

There has been people against it for a bit. Apparently It will interfere with the visual line of sight from Slane down to the Boyne Valley itself. Thats the primary reason for concern, alternatively the current bridge is one of the most dangerous in the country and it is not uncommon to see fatal accidents on the area. I hear the tender is out .. yay work!

Riamfada · 25-01-2010 3:28am

also Mr Salafia has set up a facebook page more or less saying that Newgrange itself is to be destroyed

Aelfric · 25-01-2010 3:53pm

Aye, well the Hill of Tara has been destroyed by the new M3 going through it, so I suppose Newgrange is the next logical choice. LOL

All we need now is new road to Derry via Dundalk that will pass through Emain Macha, and how about bulldozing the Carrowmore monuments to build a new Sligo airport while we're at it?

The guy needs to get a proper flipping job! He and his rent-a-looney mob drove us spare on the M3 excavations :mad:

gravensteen · 25-01-2010 6:42pm

There's a problem there though, will the line of sight from Slane down the Boyne Valley be recorded archaeologically before it's destroyed?

Riamfada · 25-01-2010 8:26pm

gravensteen wrote: »

There's a problem there though, will the line of sight from Slane down the Boyne Valley be recorded archaeologically before it's destroyed?

So you put lives and road saftey over the line of sight from Slane down the river, a line of site where none of the monuments can be seen? What exactly is special about the line of sight from Slane down the boyne? Mainly people go down to the boyne valley rather than looking into it from Slane.

sensibleken · 25-01-2010 10:39pm

hi, im coming here before the hysterics start to ask. what adverse effects do you think the proposed route will have. the impact statement mentions 44 sites along the route. what sites are these?

no one could say something needs to be done to save lives but i am curious of the real impact of the road to brú na boinne

Riamfada · 26-01-2010 1:45am

sensibleken wrote: »

hi, im coming here before the hysterics start to ask. what adverse effects do you think the proposed route will have. the impact statement mentions 44 sites along the route. what sites are these?

no one could say something needs to be done to save lives but i am curious of the real impact of the road to brú na boinne

Thats a very sensible question Ken. Personally I believe there will be no effects to the Bru Na Boyne site despite some visual interference from Slane Village down to the river bend, this of course will be nullified if one stands on the bridge and looks down the river.

. Having visited the site and toured the proposed area with Prof Cooney of UCD there will be no effect from Newgrange, Knowth or Dowth as the bridge is kilometers away and blocked visually by topography and simple distance.

My two cents but judging by the opposition sites which state

"I can't deal with this crowd of so-called archaeologists. George Eogan is the only one with any principle and any respect for the past. It does not help that my archaeology department is sponsored by the ****ing NRA! WTF is wrong with this country?!!!"

"As a person living in California which arguably has the most freeways and highways and roads on the planet this is disturbing news"

"It seems to me, that whenever a new major road is now planned in Eire, they look for the nearest ancient site of ancestral and historical importance."

Vincent Salafia "The people here are mostly expected to pay for this bypass. We are not against a bypass per se, but we do not think it should be so close to Bru na Boinne that's all. Once again the NRA and the County Manager have conspired to create a situation where people will approve anything, because it is the only option presented to them. Otherwise they would ave implemented the HGV ban and offered a western route"

"This is all part of a slow destruction of the entire area aimed not just from European consortiums and USA but some modern battle of the boyne from interests in London"

"I havn't been to Newgrange, but apart from it's obvious heritage value it also strikes me as a place to be enjoyed / experienced in relative silence. Traffic noise is a distraction that will cheapen that experience, and it's easy to imagine visitors and tourists saying 'why on earth did the Irish put a motorway here?'...."

Alot of misguided people there all taken from the Save Newgrange Facebook Page seem to believe that the passage grave of Newgrange is being destroyed. One person demanding that the Bru Na Boyne complex be classed as a UNESCO heritage site. These are the people who stand on pickets and intimidate construction workers. (we call them lefties

;))

gravensteen · 26-01-2010 11:15am

Grimes wrote: »

So you put lives and road saftey over the line of sight from Slane down the river, a line of site where none of the monuments can be seen? What exactly is special about the line of sight from Slane down the boyne? Mainly people go down to the boyne valley rather than looking into it from Slane.

I'm sorry, please point to the part of my post where I offered to sacrifice lives.
I only asked whether or not an archaeological survey of the area would take line of sight into account.
Sites need studying in their landscape and if the site will be destroyed, or the view anyway, then it needs to be recorded by someone to include in the record. This can be done with a complex GIS programme (see Delle 1998 for instance).

Riamfada · 26-01-2010 11:38am

gravensteen wrote: »

I'm sorry, please point to the part of my post where I offered to sacrifice lives.
I only asked whether or not an archaeological survey of the area would take line of sight into account.
Sites need studying in their landscape and if the site will be destroyed, or the view anyway, then it needs to be recorded by someone to include in the record. This can be done with a complex GIS programme (see Delle 1998 for instance).

There is a line of site into the Valley if you stand at the layby at the bend on the current road on the South side of the Boyne at Slane. But you cannot see anything of archaeological interest. Standing at Newgrange, Knowth or Dowth you cannot see Slane or the proposed bridge on the horizon.

The visual line of sight from Slane down the river will be affected however how many people stand at Slane and look down the river and say "over that ridge and around that bend just where we cant see is Newgrange, its about 2km away". I dont see what you would be GIS mapping and that line of sight still exists if you stand on the new bridge rather than the old one. So really nothing is being affected other than the historic and rustic landscape of Slane but if the locals are on for it, I have no right to complain.

Finally the road is outside the buffer zone. If the bridge was running through it I would have an issue, if the bridge was runnning outside the buffer zone but could be seen from either Dowth, Knowth or Newgrange I would have an issue. And to answer your question yes, archaeological and planning surveys of the site have taken into account the line of site.

Aelfric · 26-01-2010 4:27pm

Grimes wrote: »

Alot of misguided people there all taken from the Save Newgrange Facebook Page seem to believe that the passage grave of Newgrange is being destroyed. One person demanding that the Bru Na Boyne complex be classed as a UNESCO heritage site.

LOL. The Brú na Boinne complex was made a UNESCO World Heritage Site in 1993, and was officially the first one in the Republic. Skellig Michael (1996) and the Giants Causeway (1986) are the other two Irish WH sites.

gravensteen · 27-01-2010 12:11am

Grimes wrote: »

There is a line of site into the Valley if you stand at the layby at the bend on the current road on the South side of the Boyne at Slane. But you cannot see anything of archaeological interest. Standing at Newgrange, Knowth or Dowth you cannot see Slane or the proposed bridge on the horizon.

The visual line of sight from Slane down the river will be affected however how many people stand at Slane and look down the river and say "over that ridge and around that bend just where we cant see is Newgrange, its about 2km away". I dont see what you would be GIS mapping and that line of sight still exists if you stand on the new bridge rather than the old one. So really nothing is being affected other than the historic and rustic landscape of Slane but if the locals are on for it, I have no right to complain.

Finally the road is outside the buffer zone. If the bridge was running through it I would have an issue, if the bridge was runnning outside the buffer zone but could be seen from either Dowth, Knowth or Newgrange I would have an issue. And to answer your question yes, archaeological and planning surveys of the site have taken into account the line of site.

I'm not suggesting scrapping the road.
I'm just suggesting that someone should record the line of sight from Slane and not from a landscape already disturbed. Disturb by all means, but record first.
If there's nothing to see, then why are people claiming that the line of sight will be ruined in the first place?

Riamfada · 27-01-2010 3:11am

gravensteen wrote: »

If there's nothing to see, then why are people claiming that the line of sight will be ruined in the first place?

I do agree with you but just on this, it seems the majority of people who join these groups havnt avtually been to the site and are being misinformed into thinking that Newgrange itself will be affected. Its another case of militant anarchists using archaeology and heritage as a weapon for their own gains. Sad days

tuathal · 27-01-2010 5:59pm

Grimes wrote: »

Thats a very sensible question Ken. Personally I believe there will be no effects to the Bru Na Boyne site despite some visual interference from Slane Village down to the river bend, this of course will be nullified if one stands on the bridge and looks down the river. . Having visited the site and toured the proposed area with Prof Cooney of UCD there will be no effect from Newgrange, Knowth or Dowth as the bridge is kilometers away and blocked visually by topography and simple distance.

My two cents but judging by the opposition sites which state

"I can't deal with this crowd of so-called archaeologists. George Eogan is the only one with any principle and any respect for the past. It does not help that my archaeology department is sponsored by the ****ing NRA! WTF is wrong with this country?!!!"

"As a person living in California which arguably has the most freeways and highways and roads on the planet this is disturbing news"

"It seems to me, that whenever a new major road is now planned in Eire, they look for the nearest ancient site of ancestral and historical importance."

Vincent Salafia "The people here are mostly expected to pay for this bypass. We are not against a bypass per se, but we do not think it should be so close to Bru na Boinne that's all. Once again the NRA and the County Manager have conspired to create a situation where people will approve anything, because it is the only option presented to them. Otherwise they would ave implemented the HGV ban and offered a western route"

"This is all part of a slow destruction of the entire area aimed not just from European consortiums and USA but some modern battle of the boyne from interests in London"

"I havn't been to Newgrange, but apart from it's obvious heritage value it also strikes me as a place to be enjoyed / experienced in relative silence. Traffic noise is a distraction that will cheapen that experience, and it's easy to imagine visitors and tourists saying 'why on earth did the Irish put a motorway here?'...."

Alot of misguided people there all taken from the Save Newgrange Facebook Page seem to believe that the passage grave of Newgrange is being destroyed. One person demanding that the Bru Na Boyne complex be classed as a UNESCO heritage site. These are the people who stand on pickets and intimidate construction workers. (we call them lefties ;))

Nice political rant, but I am a member of the Save Newgange facebook group, and I don't see the quote from Mr Salafia you are talking about. Can you give us a link please?

tuathal · 27-01-2010 6:14pm

Grimes wrote: »

I do agree with you but just on this, it seems the majority of people who join these groups havnt avtually been to the site and are being misinformed into thinking that Newgrange itself will be affected. Its another case of militant anarchists using archaeology and heritage as a weapon for their own gains. Sad days

That is a ridiculous statement. There is no talk of camps or any kind of militancy. There is talk of the planning process, which is still under way. Perhaps Mr Salafia's letter to the Irish Times yesterday will clarify the matter and calm your unjustified fears:

Controversy over Slane bypass proposal
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2010/0126/1224263115313.html

Madam, – In struggling to defend the preferred route for the N2 Slane Bypass, which runs 500m from the edge of the Bend of the Boyne Unesco World Heritage Site, a spokesman for the National Roads Authority (NRA) said, “we have selected a route with the least impact” (Home News, January 22nd). This is not true and there is no doubt that a western bypass would have a much lesser impact, as the proposed dual carriageway will sever the World Heritage Site from the village of Slane, and box it in between the M2 motorway and a dual carriageway.

As your reporter Elaine Keogh noted, the Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) for the project acknowledges “44 archaeological and cultural sites” will be within 500m of the roadway. The potential to uncover much more during work is high. In addition, the EIS identified 21 architectural heritage sites within the study area, including the Ledwidge Cottage, birth-place of Ireland’s most famous first World War poet, Francis Ledwidge. The 19th-century farm labourer’s cottage is now a museum dedicated to him. The EIS also states, “The wider landscape is judged as being of very high value and the River Boyne valley is deemed as being of ‘exceptional’ value.”

According to the Unesco website, “The Archaeological Ensemble of the Bend of the Boyne” is “Europe’s largest and most important concentration of prehistoric megalithic art. The monuments there had social, economic, religious and funerary functions. The committee inscribed the site under criteria (i), (iii) and (iv) and invited the Irish authorities to control carefully future developments in and around the site and to involve Icomos (International Council on Monuments and Sites) in conservation and management planning.”

Criterion (i) is “to represent a masterpiece of human creative genius”; (iii) is “to bear a unique or at least exceptional testimony to a cultural tradition or to a civilisation which is living or which has disappeared”; and (iv) is “to be an outstanding example of a type of building, architectural or technological ensemble or landscape which illustrates [a] significant stage(s) in human history.” There is little doubt that the 44 known archaeological sites, and the numerous others yet to be discovered within the 3.5km stretch, are related to the archaeological ensemble.

This makes the site a perfect candidate for the Unesco List of World Heritage in Danger, which is designed “to inform the international community of conditions which threaten the very characteristics for which a property was inscribed on the World Heritage List, and to encourage corrective action.” Although the Irish authorities claim they have written to Unesco, they have not publicly reported a response prior to picking the preferred route, and the clock is now ticking for making objections.

Meath County Council has already issued notices for compulsory purchase of land, despite the fact that planning permission is far from being granted, and public consultation continues.

Dr Edgar Morgenrath, associate research professor and co-ordinator of the Transport and Infrastructure Research Programme at the Economic and Social Research Institute noted: “It is remarkable that there are plans to facilitate the avoidance of the toll on the M1 by building a bypass around Slane involving the expensive construction of a bridge over the river Boyne when a simple HGV ban would solve the local traffic problems” (Opinion, April 24th, 2009). Meath councillors voted in 2009 “to ban HGVs going through Slane because of the dangerous and steep incline from the bridge on the N2 into the village.” (Home News, July 16th, 2009).

The county manager has failed implement the ban, which would have been the solution with the “least impact”. The next best option would have been a western bypass, but instead the NRA has chosen the route with the most impact. – Yours, etc,

VINCENT SALAFIA,

You can link up with the Facebook group at:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=438725795435&ref=mf

Facebook Cause:
http://apps.facebook.com/causes/causes/438679

Save Newgrange Petition
http://www.savenewgrange.net

Save Newgrange Twitter
https://twitter.com/savenewgrange

Cutting hairs over the accuracy of the name is unnecessary. Calling the campaign 'Save the Archaeological Ensemble of the Bend of the Boyne World Heritage Site would be too long. The two names, Newgrange and Bru na Boinne are synonymous to most people. The bypass goes within 500m of the World Heritage Site.

Riamfada · 27-01-2010 7:58pm

I know I am sorry. It is very unreasonable of me to suggest or assume that anyone involved in the Save Tara campaign would partake on campaigns of misinformation, intimidation of security, archaeology and construction workers, set up camps in the vicinity of a monment or infact in tunnels under monuments and such tactics would never be employed in the Save Newgrange campaign. Save Newgrange of course consisting of completely different characters than those who made a complete dogs dinner of trying to "Save Tara".

Regarding the quote I will be sure to include it in my next post if it is not gone. I note that a very long post by an archaeologist criticising the group on its page was deleted. It would seem that "Save Newgrange" are not as open to free speech as we are here on boards.ie. Also if you consider renaming your group and educating your members Ill even consider joining it but for a reason I will explain below.

Finally its called a buffer zone for a reason. What is inside is whats protected, what is outside is not. This has been the case with the UNESCO site for the past decade, I am suprised that none of you actually reaised this point in this time regarding the bridge at Slane until the site has already been chosen. I visited the site 12 months ago to look at the location of the bridge. That would have been an excellent time to discuss your concerns. I fear that you are not really clued into the archaeology, landscape management, Newgrange or the people Slane. Thats why your campaign will fail considering you had a much stronger case for Tara and that failed. All that you did was waste a hell of alot of taxpayers money. I would also be suprised if you stood at the side of the road in Slane where you can see the river and looked for yourself.

Also it simply means that the line of sight is shifting, rather than standing at the side of the currently very busy road and looking down the river to the Boyne Valley you will simply be standing on a different road 500m east looking down the river at the boyne valley. I fail to see the problem. Also I fail to promote the idea of conservation for no reason. 44 whole sites? monastaries, towerhouses, ritual deposition? please fill us in I would like to hear what these 44 sites are from your point of view rather than from an EIS

My own views, I think a new bridge will destroy the rustic and picturesque Slane village. However I dont live there, I pass through the area occasionally and it is wanted by the locals to save lives so I dont really have any right to be protesting their decision. Its not my landscape and I dont have to live in it.

G

gravensteen · 28-01-2010 2:06am

Also it simply means that the line of sight is shifting, rather than standing at the side of the currently very busy road and looking down the river to the Boyne Valley you will simply be standing on a different road 500m east looking down the river at the boyne valley. I fail to see the problem.

changing the line of sight has implications for phenomonological or experiential study of the area (hence the need for recording).

tuathal · 28-01-2010 4:21am

Grimes wrote: »

I know I am sorry. It is very unreasonable of me to suggest or assume that anyone involved in the Save Tara campaign would partake on campaigns of misinformation, intimidation of security, archaeology and construction workers, set up camps in the vicinity of a monment or infact in tunnels under monuments and such tactics would never be employed in the Save Newgrange campaign. Save Newgrange of course consisting of completely different characters than those who made a complete dogs dinner of trying to "Save Tara".

Regarding the quote I will be sure to include it in my next post if it is not gone. I note that a very long post by an archaeologist criticising the group on its page was deleted. It would seem that "Save Newgrange" are not as open to free speech as we are here on boards.ie. Also if you consider renaming your group and educating your members Ill even consider joining it but for a reason I will explain below.

Finally its called a buffer zone for a reason. What is inside is whats protected, what is outside is not. This has been the case with the UNESCO site for the past decade, I am suprised that none of you actually reaised this point in this time regarding the bridge at Slane until the site has already been chosen. I visited the site 12 months ago to look at the location of the bridge. That would have been an excellent time to discuss your concerns. I fear that you are not really clued into the archaeology, landscape management, Newgrange or the people Slane. Thats why your campaign will fail considering you had a much stronger case for Tara and that failed. All that you did was waste a hell of alot of taxpayers money. I would also be suprised if you stood at the side of the road in Slane where you can see the river and looked for yourself.

Also it simply means that the line of sight is shifting, rather than standing at the side of the currently very busy road and looking down the river to the Boyne Valley you will simply be standing on a different road 500m east looking down the river at the boyne valley. I fail to see the problem. Also I fail to promote the idea of conservation for no reason. 44 whole sites? monastaries, towerhouses, ritual deposition? please fill us in I would like to hear what these 44 sites are from your point of view rather than from an EIS

My own views, I think a new bridge will destroy the rustic and picturesque Slane village. However I dont live there, I pass through the area occasionally and it is wanted by the locals to save lives so I dont really have any right to be protesting their decision. Its not my landscape and I dont have to live in it.

G

It is hard to expect you to be reasonable, considering the quotes you invented for Mr Salafia above. You didn't supply a link to them because they are fictitious and should be removed

You complain about supposedly misguided people misrepresenting the proximity of the bypass to Newgrange, when in fact the very first RTE news report on this is entitled 'Slane bypass would run close to Newgrange' and says 'Controversy expected'
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0121/slane.html

Trying to drag the Tara campaign into this is weak, as planning permission hasn't even been granted yet. As for deleted posts, the Save Newgrange campaign was subjected to attacks by a couple of different groups, who tried to create conflict and chaos. The site is designed for supporters of the cause, in order to organise a campaign, and people were directed to Indymedia and politics.ie to engage in moderated debates. We will direct them here too. This thread could use some facts and reliable, referenced material, so people can make informed choices

Riamfada · 28-01-2010 12:17pm

gravensteen wrote: »

changing the line of sight has implications for phenomonological or experiential study of the area (hence the need for recording).

If you assume that the current "viewpoint" was an important area for people viewing the valley in prehistory. have you any evidence for this? Is it not just a handy viewing point because thats where the modern road runs, and its not really a viewing point more of a layby

Riamfada · 28-01-2010 12:20pm

tuathal wrote: »

It is hard to expect you to be reasonable, considering the quotes you invented for Mr Salafia above. You didn't supply a link to them because they are fictitious and should be removed

You complain about supposedly misguided people misrepresenting the proximity of the bypass to Newgrange, when in fact the very first RTE news report on this is entitled 'Slane bypass would run close to Newgrange' and says 'Controversy expected'
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0121/slane.html

Trying to drag the Tara campaign into this is weak, as planning permission hasn't even been granted yet. As for deleted posts, the Save Newgrange campaign was subjected to attacks by a couple of different groups, who tried to create conflict and chaos. The site is designed for supporters of the cause, in order to organise a campaign, and people were directed to Indymedia and politics.ie to engage in moderated debates. We will direct them here too. This thread could use some facts and reliable, referenced material, so people can make informed choices

I guess your posts speaks for itself. The Salafia comment was deleted from your page along with any posts that offer any objection to your point of view. My discussion with you is over.Your funny

tuathal · 28-01-2010 1:19pm

Grimes wrote: »

I guess your posts speaks for itself. The Salafia comment was deleted from your page along with any posts that offer any objection to your point of view. My discussion with you is over.Your funny

The Salafia comment was invented by you, and I am shocked to see you are actually a moderator here.

Riamfada · 28-01-2010 2:33pm

I dont make up facts, thats pretty much the remit of Indymedia, Vincent Salfia and all of the anarchist rent-a-twats that follow him in some form of cultish fashion. Had a look for the post but obviously was deleted while you were clearing out all of logic and discussion from your webpage. Now I have made my points and you have accused me of making things up, I really dont care enough about a road through Slane to waste time making things up. Now I have helped turn this thread into a joke, unwittingly. If I was mod Id ban us both but no this conversation is over and so is the little war between you and me. Back to business, you wont get uniformed anti-establishment tripe here.

Bog Butter · 28-01-2010 8:46pm

tuathal wrote: »

You complain about supposedly misguided people misrepresenting the proximity of the bypass to Newgrange, when in fact the very first RTE news report on this is entitled 'Slane bypass would run close to Newgrange' and says 'Controversy expected'
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0121/slane.html

I made the point below in the infastructure forum. I also took the image from there.

RTE were erroneous in their reporting. I watched the main evening news when this was first reported. The reporter said the road would come within 500m of the monument in his opening headline. However when he went into the piece he said that it was the buffer zone.
I expect nothing less from the media. I followed the reporting on the M3 when Lismullin was an issue. All media were very poor in their reporting and showed a lack of any real insight into the issues. I wonder do RTE even know they were erroneous in this case?

From the 'SAVE NEWGRANGE':

The preferred route for the N2 Slane Bypass, County Meath, Ireland, announced in January 2010 by the National Roads Authority, runs 500 metres from the edge of the Bend of the Boyne UNESCO World Heritage Site.

Bog Butter · 28-01-2010 9:12pm

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0121/slane.html

Here is what Ann Doyle said in the above report:

'the road will be located 500 meters from the world heritage site at Bru na Boinne'

This infers the road will be located 500 meters from a 'site at Bru na Boinne' . If she had of said 'of' instead of 'at' she would have been closer to the mark but still not correct. She should have said this:

'the road will be located 500 meters from the buffer zone of the world heritage site of Bru na Boinne'

Bog Butter · 28-01-2010 10:38pm

tuathal wrote: »

Trying to drag the Tara campaign into this is weak,

Mentioning the Tara campaign is very relevant at this juncture. The Tara protesters were very vocal and influential. They coloured the views people have of Tara and heritage in general. Therefore it is important that we make sure any protesters on this road are monitored. It is important to make sure that they are accurate in their reporting, decent in their behaviour and honest in their intentions.

I hope the SAVE NEWGRAGE protesters are going to be reasoned and logical people. I hope they do not lose the respect of the public by damaging machinery, blocking roads and issuing false statements. I hope they do not further damage the perspective the general public have of our heritage.

When people think of archaeology they should think of the wealth of knowledge gained through the discovery of sites and through the scientific excavation of them. They should not think of well intentioned but annoying, misguided people causing mayhem and anarchy.

The only way new sites are found is through development. Therefore it is important that when the news of such sites reaches the public that they are not synonyms with anarchy and mayhem. If this happens people lose respect and an appreciation of our past. People then equate archaeology with the blocking of progress.

If I had of been anti M3 I would still have been anti protesters. When the anti M3 protesters thought of archaeology they had a warm cosy feeling inside gained through a respect for the people of the past and through a perception of a mythical sacred landscape. They drew from the anarchist discourse of corruption, capitalism and greed. They did not separate the archaeological recording from this discourse. They failed to realise that the destruction of sites by the construction of a road is mitigated through archaeological investigation.

gravensteen · 29-01-2010 1:29am

Grimes wrote: »

If you assume that the current "viewpoint" was an important area for people viewing the valley in prehistory. have you any evidence for this? Is it not just a handy viewing point because thats where the modern road runs, and its not really a viewing point more of a layby

I don't assume anything at all. I don't live in the area and I don't study it. The point I was making was that if the viewpoint has - in the past - been considered important by people who study the area, then it needs recording. Unfortunately these types of investigations aren't usually undertaken by commercial units and it would be a great pity to lose it without it being recorded first.

Also, I'd revise the 'militant anarchist' comment. Miltancy generally lies outside of the scope of most anarchists aspirations.
I would also like to point out (before I'm accused) that I am not an anarchist. Militant or otherwise.

Slane Resident · 02-02-2010 1:15am

Tuathal has posted alleging that Mr. Salafia has been misquoted. I haven't seen that post myself. However, I can verify that multiple postings are being removed from the Save Newgrange site, even if those postings are merely presenting the facts. At least one person subsequently received an email from Mr. Salafia stating that the Save Newgrange site was not a place for balanced or moderated debate! :rolleyes:

Mr. Salafia has referred to these posts as abusive When challenged to reply what is abusive about stating that the proposed road is to be 500 metres from the buffer zone around the BnB site, rather than 500 metres from Newgrange, he starts talking about conspiracies. He has gone onto the Bypass Slane Campaign facebook page to "discuss" the issues, but any post which he feels dissents from the party line is removed from the Save Newgrange site.

It was a relief to be able to come onto a website and read some measured and informed debate. Thanks!

Riamfada · 02-02-2010 1:46am

Slane Resident wrote: »

Tuathal has posted alleging that Mr. Salafia has been misquoted. I haven't seen that post myself. However, I can verify that multiple postings are being removed from the Save Newgrange site, even if those postings are merely presenting the facts. At least one person subsequently received an email from Mr. Salafia stating that the Save Newgrange site was not a place for balanced or moderated debate! :rolleyes:

Mr. Salafia has referred to these posts as abusive When challenged to reply what is abusive about stating that the proposed road is to be 500 metres from the buffer zone around the BnB site, rather than 500 metres from Newgrange, he starts talking about conspiracies. He has gone onto the Bypass Slane Campaign facebook page to "discuss" the issues, but any post which he feels dissents from the party line is removed from the Save Newgrange site.

It was a relief to be able to come onto a website and read some measured and informed debate. Thanks!

As a resident of Slane can you give use an idea of the local relationship with the Boyne complex?

Slane Resident · 03-02-2010 12:55am

Sorry, Grimes, not being disingenuous (I'm probably having a slow day) but in what respect? As in, our commitment to the preservation of the Boyne complex?

Slane and Bru na Boinne are inherently linked in the minds of most locals. We know we're privileged to live in such a wonderfully rich area. No matter how long I've lived here, if I'm driving from Dublin into Slane and I turn the corner to the hill just before the bridge, the view takes my breath away. To see the Hill of Slane with St. Ercs perched above the landscape is just magnificent and you never get bored with it.

Newgrange is about a ten minute drive from Slane. Knowth and Dowth are about the same. If you drive certain back roads to Drogheda from Slane you will pass Newgrange on your left. This road is much closer to Newgrange than the proposed new road.

There's been a lot of talk about a bypass to the west being preferable. This road would run between the Hill of Slane and a quarry. It would be higher and therefore more visible. It would run through some of the grounds of Slane Castle, and close to St. Erc's hermitage. This would cause actual damage, as opposed to the proposed road which would not affect Newgrange at all.

If Newgrange was threatened, the people in Slane would be up in arms. We would still demand our bypass, but on a different route.

thegreenspirit · 03-02-2010 11:14am

The Slane Bypass.
The M3 Motorway is a key part of the plan to upgrade the overall roads network for the country. It will significantly improve road transport connections between the North West and the East of the country. The transport corridor that links the North West, Cavan and North Meath with Dublin City is one of the busiest in the country. The existing road is struggling to cope with the hugely increased volumes brought about by the population explosion in towns such as Dunshaughlin, Navan and Kells, as well as other areas of County Meath. When complete the M3 will enable motorists to by-pass those towns.
From the M3 website http://www.m3motorway.ie

To by- pass towns in North Meath, one reason given by those who planned and built the M3 and the justification for the environmental damage, huge expense and heritage carnage that it cost. Similar reasons were given for the construction of the nearby M1.
Slane is in north Meath and sits between both of these motorways, closer I think than any town to two motorways anywhere on our planet. Yet they now want to build another road and when that one is finished then what? Build another?
Would it not be better to use the money to repair the ones falling apart all over Meath?
The other reason given for the M3 construction ; to facilitate the population explosion.
It has never failed to baffle me why the people of Ireland stayed so quiet about what was in fact an invasion.
Between 2000 and 2008 Ireland experience population growth that was unprecedented in any country in European history. It was about 75% more per year than experienced by England, in relation to size and population, (Mentioned in the Dail, 28/02/08).
This for a country which never had an empire, a history of colonization or invasion.
In research published on December 23rd 2009, the Central Statistics Office (CSO) shows that 967,800 PPSNs were issued to foreigners between 2002 and 2008; as reported in the Irish Times December 24th 2009.
This amounted to one in four of our native population. It did not include the dependents of the workers or their children or Asylum seekers. This explosion led to the estates, the roads and eventually to the economic mire we are now in. Without that explosion it could not have happened. It baffles me even more that people connected to environmentalism, heritage and sustainability movements stayed as quiet as those who did not care a hoot about anything. They still do.
Where does this need to destroy ourselves come from? Do we hate ourselves and so hate our past and the sites connected to it? Do we believe that the present situation we find ourselves in is normal, that litter, unemployment, a destroyed environment, a society falling apart and a failed economy is our natural state?
The politics of hubris that led to this; the politics of Fianna Fail pushes the Slane bypass too. Staying quiet about it, or agreeing to it, or looking away from it is suicidal madness.

Slane Resident · 03-02-2010 5:34pm

The Green Spirit, the proposed Slane bypass has nothing to do with a population explosion. The first recorded fatality was 50 years ago when a 24 year old cyclist, a Slane resident, was struck by a lorry which lost braking power coming down the hill from Collon. The same thing as happened in 2001 when David Garvey was killed. The same thing as happened in 2009 when a lorry ran into seven cars.

At issue is the fact that Slane is, according to the Guards, in the top 1% of the most dangerous roads in the country. Lorries travelling on the N2 come through Collon, come down a steep hill, and find when they get into Slane and have to stop at traffic lights, that their brakes have overheated and they can't stop. They then drive over anything that's in their way.

I'm not even going to reply to your thinly veiled attacks on immigration. Just not going there. The situation in Slane has nothing to do with immigrants.

Bog Butter · 03-02-2010 8:51pm

thegreenspirit wrote: »

The Slane Bypass.
The M3 Motorway is a key part of the plan to upgrade the overall roads network for the country. It will significantly improve road transport connections between the North West and the East of the country. The transport corridor that links the North West, Cavan and North Meath with Dublin City is one of the busiest in the country. The existing road is struggling to cope with the hugely increased volumes brought about by the population explosion in towns such as Dunshaughlin, Navan and Kells, as well as other areas of County Meath. When complete the M3 will enable motorists to by-pass those towns.
From the M3 website http://www.m3motorway.ie

To by- pass towns in North Meath, one reason given by those who planned and built the M3 and the justification for the environmental damage, huge expense and heritage carnage that it cost. Similar reasons were given for the construction of the nearby M1.
Slane is in north Meath and sits between both of these motorways, closer I think than any town to two motorways anywhere on our planet. Yet they now want to build another road and when that one is finished then what? Build another?
Would it not be better to use the money to repair the ones falling apart all over Meath?
The other reason given for the M3 construction ; to facilitate the population explosion.
It has never failed to baffle me why the people of Ireland stayed so quiet about what was in fact an invasion.
Between 2000 and 2008 Ireland experience population growth that was unprecedented in any country in European history. It was about 75% more per year than experienced by England, in relation to size and population, (Mentioned in the Dail, 28/02/08).
This for a country which never had an empire, a history of colonization or invasion.
In research published on December 23rd 2009, the Central Statistics Office (CSO) shows that 967,800 PPSNs were issued to foreigners between 2002 and 2008; as reported in the Irish Times December 24th 2009.
This amounted to one in four of our native population. It did not include the dependents of the workers or their children or Asylum seekers. This explosion led to the estates, the roads and eventually to the economic mire we are now in. Without that explosion it could not have happened. It baffles me even more that people connected to environmentalism, heritage and sustainability movements stayed as quiet as those who did not care a hoot about anything. They still do.
Where does this need to destroy ourselves come from? Do we hate ourselves and so hate our past and the sites connected to it? Do we believe that the present situation we find ourselves in is normal, that litter, unemployment, a destroyed environment, a society falling apart and a failed economy is our natural state?
The politics of hubris that led to this; the politics of Fianna Fail pushes the Slane bypass too. Staying quiet about it, or agreeing to it, or looking away from it is suicidal madness.

Lets not go into a rant. Why must you introduce nonsense about hating ourselves, Asylum seekers, other E.U citizens and litter? We are not destroying ourselves; we are doing the opposite. This is not about building a road for road's sake. Neither is about facilitating the people of Slane in terms of getting to Dublin. It's about stopping heavy volumes of traffic going through Slane. I think the Slane Bridge Action Committee explain it best:

A warning shot has been fired across the bows of protesters against the proposed Slane bypass this week that delays to the project could result in even more loss of life.
John Ryle of the Slane Bridge Action Committee asked if environmental and heritage protesters would be able to live with themselves if there was another tragedy in the village if the project was delayed. "The primary reason for the bypass is to end the carnage in Slane. It is a matter of life and death," he said.

We were not invaded by immigrants. In any case, the vast majority of people who came here were entitled to do so; more luck to them.
There is a long history of social change in Ireland and the empire we left it in 1949 played a significant role in that change. The legacy left behind by the empire is seen in the language we speak, our road network, our rail network, our cities and towns, our legal system, past emigration, the Famine, the Plantations and paramilitary activity (and all its consequences).

thegreenspirit · 04-02-2010 9:51am

The mixing up of fact and what I wrote can only be intentional.
I have said that 22 death in thirty years is unfortunately normal and if we except a car culture then we have a choice; either we accept that or we destroy our country by building more roads which will clog up and then we build more roads.. this is madness. All roads in thirty years will show a similar toll.
On immigration I said simply that the explosion of population as mentioned in all the planning appeals in favor of the M3 was similar madness.
This was not a thinly veiled attack on immigration, I say clearly that immigration in the present day, knowing what we know about our disappearing water supply, climate change and jobs disappearing to Asia is madness.
The model of bigger is better, that more is better, has left us with less, less less.
Our environment, health care and wage structures have fallen to it, it has came at a terrible cost to everyone, mostly the poor, and with little or no long term benefits to anyone.
More roads will not or did not help us. They will bring chaos sooner or later.
If you disagree and choose hubris then go ahead and ruin your own land, one day reality will force itself on you and people like you.
Restraint in all things is the prerequisite of success and stability. Is this beyond understanding?

Riamfada · 04-02-2010 11:24am

Greenspirit,

Please dont change the standard font, size and colour it makes your posts very difficult to read.

Thanks

Slane Resident · 04-02-2010 7:26pm

The Green Man, you repeatedly state that "22 deaths in 30 years is normal". I'm not going to even give in to my natural emotional response on that one, but what I will say is this - you complain about misrepresentation but I would say that you are not listening to any argument.

So to repeat: Slane is in the top 1% of the roads in the country.

Not normal. Top 1%. 200 metres of road; 22 deaths. Worse than 99% of the rest of the roads in the country. So no, all roads in the past 30 years won't show a similar toll. 1% of all roads in the past 30 years will show a similar toll.

Immigration has nothing to do with Slane. A desire for reduced commuting times has nothing to do with Slane (and it's a totally different situation from the M3). Health care has nothing to do with Slane

(although I note on another forum you're basically saying that kids with arthritis had their funding cut, and where were all the road protestors then? I don't understand the logic of that argument, but maybe that's just me.). Jobs disappearing to Asia has nothing to do with Slane.

All the people of Slane are interested in is getting their kids to school (by bus, by car, by foot or by bike) without them being killed. Getting to work in one piece. Getting out of the village without having a runaway lorry plough through your car.

How do you get around, The Green Spirit?

thegreenspirit · 05-02-2010 11:33am

You lot have tried to guilt trip people about road deaths but when it is pointed out to you that spending hundreds of millions on more roads at a time when childern suffer from collapsing health care budgets, when people have their dole and pensions cut the arguments become "ridiculous".
You purposely misquote me. I have asked that if the Slane Bypass is just about saving lives then where were you all when Tara and its ancient complex was bulldozed?
That was about naked destruction and you lot all stood back then too and applauded.
The so called Archeologists among you should hide in shame.
On a site http://thetarajournal.webs.com/ are photos of what happenned at Tara, will you hide and deny what is to happen at Slane too?
I use public transport as all people should, who know the problems that carbon release is about to cause.
It just beggars beliefe that in the state our country is in we have money to build ever more roads and that in a nut shell that is what is both ridiculous and perverse.
That is the argument that you lot run from.
We can get by without this road, in Europe they do because they care. It is only here that people hears about lorries that cannot stop.
Will our childern get by in the present and future conditions? Will they have the schooling and care they deserves, have they a future is a corroupt and bust land or is the mania for building more roads more important than this?
All my arguments are connected to that; what we have been doing, what we can afford, what is sustainable.
I point out what the hubris of Fianna Fail has cost us and what we should be doing to correct this. You lot just snort about deaths and roads.
Wake up to reality

Slane Resident · 05-02-2010 12:29pm

Okay, in order to avoid being accused of misquoting you, I'm going to take your points one by one as follows:

1. You lot have tried to guilt trip people about road deaths but when it is pointed out to you that spending hundreds of millions on more roads at a time when childern suffer from collapsing health care budgets, when people have their dole and pensions cut the arguments become "ridiculous".

Firstly, who is "you lot"?
Secondly, "trying to guilt trip people about road deaths"? Anyone with half a brain would automatically be concerned about road deaths. I'm not trying to guilt trip anyone. I'm just trying to clarify what the issue, as I see it, is - not jobs in Asia, not immigration, not tailbacks, not commuting distances, not traffic jams. Deaths and injuries. Top 1% of most dangerous roads in the country - I note you haven't responded to that.

2. You purposely misquote me. I have asked that if the Slane Bypass is just about saving lives then where were you all when Tara and its ancient complex was bulldozed?

Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense. What loss of life at Tara? And when it was it bulldozed? I was up there last week and it seemed okay then ...

3. That was about naked destruction and you lot all stood back then too and applauded.

"You lot" again. And I presume you have photos of me and the rest of "us" applauding? Oh no, you don't actually know who I am. Oh, unless you are talking about us Slane residents. Yeah, we threw a party down in Boyles, said great, there's some naked destruction going on, three cheers. Cop on!

4. The so called Archeologists among you should hide in shame.
On a site http://thetarajournal.webs.com/ are photos of what happenned at Tara, will you hide and deny what is to happen at Slane too?

I'm not an archaeologist so I'll leave that for someone else to answer.

As Tara has nothing to do with Slane, I'm not going to get into it. Just wondering though - do you also have photos of the damage done by tunnelling protestors?

5. I use public transport as all people should, who know the problems that carbon release is about to cause.

What sort of public transport? Rail or road? Just that you seem so anti-road under any circumstances.

I walk my kids to school (watching out for runaway lorries the whole way). So sorry to ruin your carbon release (tangential) argument.

6. It just beggars beliefe that in the state our country is in we have money to build ever more roads and that in a nut shell that is what is both ridiculous and perverse.

That is the argument that you lot run from.

"Us lot" yet again. God, I wish I had the addresses of the rest of this group, I could invite them to the local coffee shop for a catch up. And of course, to plan our nefarious deeds.

7. We can get by without this road, in Europe they do because they care. It is only here that people hears about lorries that cannot stop.

THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT! Yes, it's only in Slane that there is a problem with lorries that cannot stop. As my 12 year old would say .. duh!!! Go ahead and Google. I'll wait for you. Show me a comparative site in Europe, where they have a steep gradient leading to loss of braking power by lorries, which then mow down traffic. Then show me how "Europe" (the vagueness is unreal) did nothing about it. Back up your argument.

8. Will our childern get by in the present and future conditions? Will they have the schooling and care they deserves, have they a future is a corroupt and bust land or is the mania for building more roads more important than this?

Are Slane children excluded from this? Because if not, you could look at it this way:

Are Slane children entitled to have the schooling they deserve (and the right to be transported to and from school without fear of mortal injury).

Are Slane children entitled to the care they deserve (including knowing that their parents will still be alive after the school run to collect them).

Seven cars were involved in the most recent accident, most of them mothers, a grandmother, at least two pre-school children, all going home after dropping children to school. Do those children, and parents, not have rights, or do you get to choose which children are entitled to "schooling and care".

What about David Garvey? What about his rights? He would have been 12 this year. I know that because when he was killed I had a child of the same age. Relatives heard the news and phoned me up to make sure it wasn't us. Then I had to phone everyone I knew before they heard, to reassure them. Have you any idea what it's like to live like this on a day to day basis?

9. All my arguments are connected to that; what we have been doing, what we can afford, what is sustainable.
I point out what the hubris of Fianna Fail has cost us and what we should be doing to correct this.

Not that it should make any difference, but for the sake of clarity, I've never voted Fianna Fail. I come from an ABFF family. I can't understand why they keep getting returned to power. But what has that got to do with trying to save lives on Slane bridge?

10. You lot just snort about deaths and roads.
Wake up to reality

This really just says it all, and I'm going to let it speak for itself.

thegreenspirit · 05-02-2010 5:33pm

Can lorries not be made stop a hundred meters before the cross; i.e., change the position of the lights and place them further back from the dissecting road. Then if their brakes suddenly fail, as seems to happen so often and only in Slane, they could steer the lorry into a safe secure side barrier. Such barriers are known to exist.
Could a small walkover bridge not be installed at the cross road in the seldom case of a lorry not obeying this method.
Such walk over bridges spanning roads are know to exist too. There is a good one in Fairview, in Dublin 3, a road much wider and larger road than the one at Slane.
If these and the ban on HGVs were to be implemented then deaths could be cut to a minimum, (people will still die, that unfortunately is part of life) and a world renown and precious landscape saved and all for less that a hundred thousand euros.
Perhaps the walk over bridge and barriers could even be made in Ireland?
Then there is the very real possibility of an underpass as the Germans so often favour; I have seen many in Munich going under roads that would dwarf the one at Slane.
A few locals might find work constructing it.
Then stretching it even further could the By Pass, if it is still needed and so mystically wanted, not go to the west of the village of Slane, through the lands of Mr Lord Mountcharles? Why is his heritage favoured over ours???
Then there is the possibility of building a new wider, straighter bridge. Any European army can build them in days and they take much heavier traffic than at Slane.
Such a new bridge, straight and clad in stone could be built in Slane in a year.
Again locals might find work building it.
To calm the hysterical appeasers of tarmac in the village of Slane all of this could be done and it would still cost less and ruin less that the proposed new road.
However I feel that if this did happen then the local Fianna Fail Tarmac Crew would in all likelihood still say no; their machinations are hard to fathom, even the poor, those on the dole and those who have had all their entitlements cut cannot do this, they are presented with the conclusion that it is some unknown sort of fate.
So it looks like “destroy again”. Slane take your malignant bow.

buffalo · 05-02-2010 6:28pm

Slane Resident, my advice is to walk away from this raving loon. From this thread, it's like talking to a brick wall.

Slane Resident · 05-02-2010 7:55pm

5 x 5, Buffalo!

thegreenspirit · 05-02-2010 8:31pm

Ok lads hurl insults but before you both walk away try to answer my last few questions, there are many more people than me reading this thread.
Answer the questions then walk away, I won't call you back.

Riamfada · 05-02-2010 9:45pm

Okay this thread is heading towards a locking unless anyone has anything to say about the archaeology beneath the Slane bypass.

Slane Resident · 05-02-2010 11:42pm

Grimes, I'm sorry. I've been trying to put forward logical counterpoints to The Green Spirit's arguments, but at some stage frustration sets in!

TGS, do you know the area of Slane? It's just that it's very hard to describe why these ideas won't work to someone who doesn't seem to know the area, but I'll do my best.

You can't stop the lorries 100 metres from the cross. In the first place there's nowhere to stop them; in the second place it wouldn't do any good since at least some of the accidents have occurred further back. You could stop them before they get to Slane, but then by the time they get to the bottom of Mill Hill they'd have picked up speed again. You couldn't put in a lay area anywhere between say, the outskirts of the northern side of Slane and Mill Hill without destroyings parts of the heritage village.

You are aware that Slane is a heritage village? It's just that a flyover pedestrian bridge seems an odd choice from someone concerned about heritage.

A lot of your arguments seem to have no basis in fact. (Such as your "I bet that my road is as bad" argument earlier, for example). Are you basing your figure of 100,000 euros for this proposed pedestrian flyover on anything? It's just that I know you can't build a house for 100K, so I'm wondering how you'd build a bridge for it.

Underpass - ditto the heritage village. What bit of the heritage area would you choose to dig up? Do the lorries or the cars take the underpass? If the cars take the underpass, the pedestrians/cyclists are still at risk. If the lorries take the underpass, and I'm purely speculating here, (and perhaps an archaeologist could confirm this) I would imagine a lot of damage would be done to the underlying foundations of the important heritage sites such as the four Georgian houses at the crossroads. As it is, if you sit in a coffee shop in Slane village, you can feel vibrations in your chest from the HGVs going up and down. I wouldn't like to think what damage that would do under the ground.

There have been multiple posts about why the western bypass site isn't suitable, including on the Save Newgrange forum where you're also posting. The reasons the western bypass wouldn't be suitable are that they would cause real impact on heritage sites such as the Hill of Slane, Ladyswell, St. Erc's Hermitage, Beauparc House, Slane Castle, Dollardstown house, etc. The route would also be approximately twice as long (and I know you don't favour spending money on roads) and would have to detour around a quarry. The impact on the above sites would be actual impact, as opposed to whatever impact is imagined will occur by placing the road 3.5 kms from Newgrange.

Wider, straighter bridge - great. Solves the problem of the damage being caused to the actual heritage bridge, and the lorries plunging off it. Doesn't solve the problem of the second accident site such as the recent accident just past the school. The road is steep the whole way from Collon; a bridge alone wouldn't solve the problem.

If you want to inform yourself about the facts I would suggest you visit the facebook page Save Newgrange - the facts where the various options are being debated by all sides in an open and frank manner. You might find it illuminating.

thegreenspirit · 06-02-2010 9:08am

Yes, Grimes,
it is good to hear from you and your ideas, all alternatives are to be welcomed. However you missed one; ban HGVs and then look at my alternatives. Together an answer could be worked out.
You seem to ignore the ban which has already been decided but not implemented and the fact that two motorways were built to allow these vechicles bypass villages like Slane. Also if they are allowed bypass the tolls who then will pay for these roads?
Yes I know Slane too, I was born not that far away. No; I do not hate roads or cars or lorries either. I worked for Mercedes Benz for years and in Munich I seen visions of the future. Vehicles ran on hydrogen, public transport affordable and used and enforced car pooling. If we did that and if we controlled our population then we would have enough roads for another two or three incarnations. We will in fact have to do this in about twenty years when climate change kicks in, in a serious way.
Many people are now asking themselves why Fianna Fail were allowed ransack our country, in twenty years will we be saying the same about our environment. Farmers, those recently flooded out and serious social planners are already asking these questions. The mania of road building has to be questioned too.
My advice again is to ban HGVs and then build the overpass, underpass, etc. I am not aware that every street or house in Slane is protected but if they are then logic should say in the interest of sustainability, cost and safety then some may have to make way. Anything would be cheeper than a new road.
It is always better to evolve than revolt, we have no money to spend on new roads and a new bridge is doable to. If we had the will to!
So use the money we have to fix up the roads we have and save our heritage; perhaps the only reason quality tourists will in future come.
I have not seen detailed worked out alternatives or why they could or could not work. As far as I know no one else has seen them either. Every tin hat, including myself, have ideas but where are the published reports on the alternatives?
Is there for example a study on the benifits of banning the HGVs and if not how was a decession made to ignore this?
If you have seen any of these reports and if you have them then please post them up, you will do us all a favor.
Your views and ideas are welcome just dont keep hammering on about deaths. Ten of thousands of people are endangered in Ireland now, lying on trollies or denied care because the hubris of developement has left us all broke. Must we continue that?
John.

Slane Resident · 06-02-2010 1:23pm

TGS, your arguments contradict each other but I'll do my best to rebut them. (Save heritage by not building 3.5 km away from Newgrange in a green field, but physically dig up parts of Slane to save money).

The HGV ban is not workable, apparently, due to the fact that the government cannot force the toll operator to lift the toll for lorries. The government doesn't run the M1, a private operator does. We mightn't like that fact (and I don't), but there it is. A free alternative has to be provided to a tolled road. That free alternative is the N2.

If the HGVs on the N2 were diverted, where would you divert them to? Donore, Duleek? Those roads would be even less suitable for HGVs (I'm taking the accidents out of the equation here and just talking about traffic volume, weight, etc.) and would cause major damage to infrastructure, as well as shifting the dangers caused by HGVs so some other town. We want our bypass, but not if it means reading about deaths in Duleek a couple of months later.

Are you aware that the bypass is only 6 kms in length? From the way you're posting it sounds as if a new road is being built from Dublin to Slane. Perhaps someone who knows more about these matters than me could do an off the cuff cost comparison, as you seem to be focusing on the financial aspects, but I would personally feel that building underpasses, overpasses, flyovers, etc., in one of the most important heritage towns in the country, would not be cost-effective. Leaving aside of course the damage to the area.

What exactly is your position, TGS? I mean, I know you're anti-bypass but is it from a financial point of view, or from a heritage point of view? It's just that it seems to me from your last post that you are saying that it would be cheaper to damage the village of Slane than to build a bypass around it. "Logic would say that in the of sustainability, cost and safety then some [streets and houses in Slane which may be protected] may have to make way. Anything would be cheeper than a new road". Really? Anything cheaper than a 6 km bypass? Building an underpass through Slane Village, and a pedestrian flyover, and a new bridge, would come to less money than a 6 km stretch of road? And from a heritage point of view, according to you, it's better to damage one of the most important heritage villages in the country than build a 6 km bypass, 3.5 kms away from Newgrange, and which won't be audible or visible from Newgrange? Really?

Here's a link to Meath County Council's documents on the bypass including a photographic map (yes, I know that's not a technical term but I'm a lay person!) which gives a good overview of the route and its environs.

http://www.meath.ie/LocalAuthorities/Roads/MajorRoadsProjects/N2SlaneBypass/SlaneBypassPublications/

"Tens of thousands of people lying on trollies" - do you think if this bypass is built, that's going to get worse? Or the health service is going to be magically fixed if the bypass isn't built? By all means campaign against the crappy health service in this country. Just don't muddy the issues. And if it's purely a matter of saving money with you, then perhaps you could agree with me that funding for golf clubs and horse racing authorities and such could be abolished and that money then could be used to build the bypass, while not forcing any more pensioners onto trolleys. Sorry, but it's just not that simple.

All the relevant links are on Save Newgrange The Facts facebook page. They were moved there following the censorship on the Save Newgrange page where any debate was stifled and the users banned (even one of the Save Newgrange pages' admins admitted one of his own posts was deleted within a few seconds!). I can't access Facebook today as there seems to be a problem with the site. Feel free to take a look at all the links there; you can at least inform yourself and will hopefully be able to take a measured position rather than kneejerk "I bet" arguments.

And just one point - I'm doing my best to engage in civil debate with you, despite frequent provocations. If you accuse me of "hammering on" about deaths, or "snorting" about deaths and roads, then you may get what you want - the last word, albeit one that hopefully will illustrate just how illogical your position is, as each of your arguments (based on absolute lack of knowledge or research - "I bet"; "I'm not aware but"). You are minimising the deaths; I am merely trying to illustrate why the road is so important, by countering your immigration, health care and other facetious arguments. I wouldn't dream of "using" the deaths in such a callous manner as you accuse me of. I know some of the families involved.

Bog Butter · 06-02-2010 3:24pm

It is good to see a debate going on. The anti Slane by-pass road campaigners oppose this road in the name of Newgrange. The Neolithic megalithic monments of the Boyne valley will not be damaged by this road. The road is 500m from the buffer zone.

Green I sense from your posts that you are sensitive in general terms to roads cutting through the landscape. Is the visual impact of the road your main concern?

thegreenspirit · 06-02-2010 8:09pm

Hi,
I have just heard that since 2002 when single line traffic was introuced over the Slane Bridge there have been no deaths and in the following seven years there have been just three minor accidents.
Is this true Slane Resident???

Slane Resident · 06-02-2010 8:30pm

And so, the smear campaign begins.

A real Slane resident (as opposed to me, I presume) tells you that "a group of young Fianna Fail members are in fact the people writing on the various sites using ridiculous names and blocking any and every sane attempt to open a debate on the alternatives".

1. Ridiculous names like what? "The Green Spirit"? A lot of people use pseudonyms when posting.

2. I can't speak for too many people but I can speak for some. I am <mod edit>. I posted once on Save Newgrange to answer a question as to what was happening to Newgrange. I replied to this post with the answer that a road was to be built metres 500 metres from the buffer zone. This single post was deleted and I was then barred from the site, and received an email from Vincent Salafia telling me that I was "abusive" and "disruptive" (I was neither), and that his site was not a place for balanced or moderate debate. :rolleyes:

I rejoined, using the name "Myheads Melted" which is a name I used on another site, nothing to do with Slane. I was very quickly barred again, once more for attempting to correct errors on the site. I then posted as Myheads Barredagain. I make no apologies for that; I would continue to post under <name removed> if the Save Newgrange site didn't practice ongoing censorship and blocking of people who wish to debate in an adult and informed way.

I now post on Save Newgrange the Facts which is an attempt to have uncensored debate about the issue.

3. I am not and have never been a member of Fianna Fail. I'm not a member of any political party, and I've never even voted for Fianna Fail. I come from an ABFF family.

4. The Bypass Slane campaign was set up by mothers who were involved in the 2009 accident, after dropping kids off on the school run. I note you are echoing Vincent Salafia's "front for a political group" organisation. It's always easier to answer with mudslinging rather than address the issues. Is it so hard to believe that we would want our children to get to school safely? And if we were all Fianna Fail heads, we don't seem to be doing a very good job since there's a lot of criticism of the government going around.

5. I know personally one other member of the Bypass Slane site who is also ABFF. That person is also barred from Save Newgrange for having the temerity to contradict the deliberate attempts at misinformation on that site.

6. I'm surprised you even bothered to post here, since you've already alleged on the Save Newgrange site that "there is another thread running on Boards.ie and because I have challanged the pro road lobby, often I admit in an unplesant manner, they have threathened to close the whole thread down. Talk about crummy babies?". I was of the opinion that both Buffalo and I were getting a rap on the knuckles for being facetious. I didn't realise that in fact this site was part of the campaign against you.

7. Photos of the 2009 accident are at http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic=12533&post=58135&uid=438725795435#!/group.php?v=photos&gid=286896560291&so=15. Take a look. It was a miracle that some of the occupants of those seven cars didn't die, particularly the one that was turned upsidedown. Don't use blind luck to try to make your case for you.

Slane Resident · 06-02-2010 8:51pm

For the sake of clarity, I should say that TGS has edited his post since I replied. His original post read "I have just been told that "since 2002 when the single file traffic system was introduced over the Slane Bridge there has been no deaths, with just 3 minor injury accidents in the following 7 years". Is that true?
It has also been brought to my notice by a real Slane resident that a group of young Fianna Fail members are in fact the people writing on the various sites, using ridiculous names and blocking any and every sane attempt to open a debate on the alternatives. For the sake of truth please inform me about this???
John".

It is for this reason that I am referring to Fianna Fail (without this clarification my reply wouldn't make much sense)!

Edited to add that this censorship continues. I have now been barred again from the Save Newgrange site. Time for persona No. 4, methinks. Ridiculous - but what can you do?!

thegreenspirit · 07-02-2010 10:00am

I notice that no one has answered my question
"How many people were killed since 2002?", since new traffic calming measures were introduced?
Was the last accident part of three minor ones in 7 years?
Please answer this and show just how wrong and piosioned the death claims were that were been pushed forward on this and other sites and used to justify a new hundred million euro road that we cannot afford.
Simple and precice; just answer, how many???
I edited my last post three times because of font problems as I was earlier asked to do.
John.

Slane Resident · 07-02-2010 11:04am

thegreenspirit wrote: »

I edited my last post three times because of font problems as I was earlier asked to do.
John.

I am not referring to fonts. I am referring to the fact that your original post included the following:

It has also been brought to my notice by a real Slane resident that a group of young Fianna Fail members are in fact the people writing on the various sites, using ridiculous names and blocking any and every sane attempt to open a debate on the alternatives. For the sake of truth please inform me about this???

Why have you not firstly answered this point? You are alleging I am not answering your questions but I have done in my response to you. The 2009 accident was not a "minor" accident as you allege on another forum. Look at the photos. It was mere chance, and sheer good luck, that there were not a number of fatalities. In your mind,that means that accident doesn't count? Seven cars ploughed into by a lorry which only was subsequently stopped because luckily enough another HGV was there to stop it, before it could plough through more cars? An overturned car, seven badly damaged cars, lots of mothers and children - minor?!

John Ryle of the Slane Bridge Action Committee has put it eloquently in his presentation to the Dail as follows:

http://www.bypassslane.ie/PresentationOir150709.pdf

Thirdly, in the absence of the bypass and a HGV ban, traffic calming measures would
appear to be the most likely to improve road safety in Slane in the interim. However,
measures that were put in place following the last fatality in 2001 have only been of
limited success as incidents continue to occur regularly. We question the level of
monitoring and maintenance of these measures. For example, the high friction
surfacing appears to have almost completely worn away in certain places and most of
the dividing strips separating the lanes on Mill Hill have disappeared. Cameras
installed to monitor traffic activity, including accidents, apparently do not work.
Traffic calming measures did nothing to prevent the out-of-control truck on 23rd
March and have, it may be argued, actually contributed to certain incidents. Even
since then at least two further incidents involving HGVs have taken place.
We would welcome the speedy reinforcement of existing traffic calming measures
and we would like to suggest that the following be considered. The carriageways
should be visibly narrowed and include constrictions, especially on the northern
approaches to the village, to force drivers to reduce their speed. Furthermore,
pedestrian-controlled crossings need to be provided, especially at the school and the
new playground. We also strongly urge the immediate installation of speed cameras
and electronic flashing signage giving vehicle speeds and warning of the steep
gradients.

Answer my post about your removed Fianna Fail allegations please. While you're at it, you might also let me know why you feel it appropriate to refer to me as a "malignant clown" and part of a "cabal of bastards" on another site (solely in relation to a post on this site) while attempting to keep up a pretence of discussion here. Is this possibly because this board is moderated, whereas on Save Newgrange where you are posting as John Farrelly any comments deemed negative to the "cause" are being deleted (including those comments correcting Vincent Salafia's frequent posting that the road is 500 metres away from Newgrange).

Slane by-pass and the Archaeology beneth

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