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Rent Arrears

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  • 14-08-2018 8:56pm
    #1
    FarmerBlee
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭


    Hi all,

    I just need to ask a few questions with regards to rent arrears on my brother's property. He lives in Australia and so I'm helping him out with a few things.

    Basically his tenant is a single mother who is in receipt of Rent Allowance. She has been living in the property for 3 years. She is 3 months in arrears which amounts to roughly E3,000. He has issued her with a 14 day arrears notice and also a 28 day eviction notice.

    The tenant has started paying rent again since he issued her with these notices and has agreed to repay the 3,000 arrears in modest monthly installments.

    Since my brother is in Oz, it's hard to keep on top of everything, so I'm here to attend any meetings etc that might arise.

    He has started proceedings with RTB. Any ideas how long these things take to process? Can we expect any hearings soon? Should my brother get a solicitor? What kind of rights does the tenant have? Though it seems unlikely, there is still the chance she will try stay on illegally in the property after the eviction notice.


    Any thoughts/inputs would be appreciated here since we're both new to this. Thanks for taking the time to read.


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    #2
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    I suspect it is highly likely that she will stay on after the eviction notice, Your brother should prepare for a lengthy, frustrating and extremely costly process to remove her.


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    #3
    tvjunki
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    FarmerBlee wrote: »
    Hi all,

    I just need to ask a few questions with regards to rent arrears on my brother's property. He lives in Australia and so I'm helping him out with a few things.

    Basically his tenant is a single mother who is in receipt of Rent Allowance. She has been living in the property for 3 years. She is 3 months in arrears which amounts to roughly E3,000. He has issued her with a 14 day arrears notice and also a 28 day eviction notice.

    The tenant has started paying rent again since he issued her with these notices and has agreed to repay the 3,000 arrears in modest monthly installments.


    Since my brother is in Oz, it's hard to keep on top of everything, so I'm here to attend any meetings etc that might arise.

    He has started proceedings with RTB. Any ideas how long these things take to process? Can we expect any hearings soon? Should my brother get a solicitor? What kind of rights does the tenant have? Though it seems unlikely, there is still the chance she will try stay on illegally in the property after the eviction notice.

    Any thoughts/inputs would be appreciated here since we're both new to this. Thanks for taking the time to read.


    First of all she is paying the rent now so going to rtb you will be wasting your time. Your brother let it slip and as he did not complain the rent was not being paid she thought he did not need it. Now you are on the case she will not mess you around.



    Your brother cannot go to rtb to evict her if she agrees to pay the arrears and is paying the rent now then the clock starts from day one. He and you will be wasting your time and rtb will have you on their books.



    There are few houses out there and she will not mess things up or she will end up in a hostel or hotel with her family. Landlords are not interested in the new HAP scheme so she will keep on top of it. Tell her she has to make sure the money is in or you will give her notice. Keep on top of it going forward.


    If you want her to leave then you have to wait until the lease is nearly up and tell her the lease will not be renewed. (Which is a landlords right.)


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    #4
    FarmerBlee
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭FarmerBlee


    tvjunki wrote: »
    First of all she is paying the rent now so going to rtb you will be wasting your time. Your brother let it slip and as he did not complain the rent was not being paid she thought he did not need it. Now you are on the case she will not mess you around.



    Your brother cannot go to rtb to evict her if she agrees to pay the arrears and is paying the rent now then the clock starts from day one. He and you will be wasting your time and rtb will have you on their books.


    Really? That seems unbelievable. Surely if she hasn't been paying rent for 3 months, then she is legally allowed to be evicted. My brother has followed everything to a T, he has done all the right things.

    Sorry, I don't meant to sound like I'm doubting what you say, more that I'm outraged that she could be allowed to stay on.

    Should we get a solicitor involved?

    The monthly repayment she suggested will be E100 p/m. The arrears won't be paid in the 14 days that she legally has to pay. From what I understand, if she hasn't paid the arrears in full, she has another 28 days to vacate the premises.Or is that all negated by the fact that she's started paying rent again and has agreed to a repayment plan?

    Thanks again for your time.


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    #5
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    tvjunki wrote: »
    First of all she is paying the rent now so going to rtb you will be wasting your time. Your brother let it slip and as he did not complain the rent was not being paid she thought he did not need it. Now you are on the case she will not mess you around.



    Your brother cannot go to rtb to evict her if she agrees to pay the arrears and is paying the rent now then the clock starts from day one. He and you will be wasting your time and rtb will have you on their books.



    There are few houses out there and she will not mess things up or she will end up in a hostel or hotel with her family. Landlords are not interested in the new HAP scheme so she will keep on top of it. Tell her she has to make sure the money is in or you will give her notice. Keep on top of it going forward.


    If you want her to leave then you have to wait until the lease is nearly up and tell her the lease will not be renewed. (Which is a landlords right.)

    What? She thought he did not need it?

    If a tenant is in arrears they are in breach of their lease and eviction notice can be served. She has 14 days to pay it in full.

    A tenant who is there for more that six months has part4 rights and though the current 4 year cycle is coming to an end, it certainly is not easy to evict a tenant who does not want to go.

    You need to do a bit more research.


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    #6
    tvjunki
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    FarmerBlee wrote: »
    Really? That seems unbelievable. Surely if she hasn't been paying rent for 3 months, then she is legally allowed to be evicted. My brother has followed everything to a T, he has done all the right things.

    Sorry, I don't meant to sound like I'm doubting what you say, more that I'm outraged that she could be allowed to stay on.

    Should we get a solicitor involved?

    The monthly repayment she suggested will be E100 p/m. The arrears won't be paid in the 14 days that she legally has to pay. From what I understand, if she hasn't paid the arrears in full, she has another 28 days to vacate the premises.Or is that all negated by the fact that she's started paying rent again and has agreed to a repayment plan?

    Thanks again for your time.

    Have you accepted her offer? 3years to pay you back.If you accept the 100permonth then you are allowing her to stay. I personally would not allow this. If she is on hap if she does not pay her share you get nothing.
    Going to rtb is the same as court. Definately get a solicitor that has experience in this area.


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    #7
    tvjunki
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    davo10 wrote: »
    What? She thought he did not need it?

    If a tenant is in arrears they are in breach of their lease and eviction notice can be served. She has 14 days to pay it in full.

    A tenant who is there for more that six months has part4 rights and though the current 4 year cycle is coming to an end, it certainly is not easy to evict a tenant who does not want to go.

    You need to do a bit more research.

    Some tenants think landlords are loaded and don't need the money.
    There are cases where the tenant has not paid and the only way the landlord finds out is when the bank gets onto them.
    If the landlord accepts her offer then he cannot evict her. She is paying something towards the rent.


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    #8
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Story strikes me as exactly why landlords don’t want this type of tenant in their properties anymore and many will only consider professionals with jobs these days. Nothing but hassle and missed rent


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    #9
    vectorvictor
    Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭vectorvictor


    Curious on this too. If 14 days arrears notice is issued and no payment is made a 28 day eviction notice follows. If tenant pays in full on day 27 are they still compelled to leave or is the second notice then deemed invalid?


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    #10
    tvjunki
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    vectorvictor wrote: »
    Curious on this too. If 14 days arrears notice is issued and no payment is made a 28 day eviction notice follows. If tenant pays in full on day 27 are they still compelled to leave or is the second notice then deemed invalid?
    You start from day one on the clock.

    Yes they can stay if they pay the full on the 27th day. You are better to get nothing from them. It becomes costly. Some landlords now put a late payment charge in their leases so don't get caught on having to go to rtb.

    There is a section in the act where a landlord can say they will not be renewing the lease. I will pull it up as it is not shown on the rtb website.


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    #11
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 4,315 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    tvjunki wrote: »
    You start from day one on the clock.

    Yes they can stay if they pay the full on the 27th day. You are better to get nothing from them. It becomes costly. Some landlords now put a late payment charge in their leases so don't get caught on having to go to rtb.

    There is a section in the act where a landlord can say they will not be renewing the lease. I will pull it up as it is not shown on the rtb website.

    Untrue.

    Once the 14 days has expired that's it. The 28 daysnotice is then a notice to end the tenancy and paying arrears then doesn't prevent the landlord from ending the tenancy.


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    #12
    GGTrek
    Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭GGTrek


    tvjunki wrote: »
    You start from day one on the clock.

    Yes they can stay if they pay the full on the 27th day. You are better to get nothing from them. It becomes costly. Some landlords now put a late payment charge in their leases so don't get caught on having to go to rtb.

    There is a section in the act where a landlord can say they will not be renewing the lease. I will pull it up as it is not shown on the rtb website.
    Wrong answer. As soon as the 14 days are over and termination notice is served the tenancy is legally over unless the landlord decides not to enforce it at the RTB (which is what is happening in the OP's case) within a reasonable timeframe. I am brutal on arrears or any other serious breach. 2 working days delay or I get prrof of breach and they get 14 days warning notice + administrative fee for the cost of serving a breach of tenancy agreement (I enforced even this at the RTB). 15 days expired they receive 29 days termination notice and there is no going back. At day 27 if they are not out or contacted me about vacating with a firm date the RTB dispute is opened and 3 weeks later if they are stupid enough not to vacate they see me personally at the RTB hearing with previous submission showing all their misdeeds. No mercy, even worse if they carry Threshold representatives with them: the last one I attacked him directly as a liar with proof he was lying. The system does not allow a landlord to have mercy or the system will screw the landlord badly being so pro tenant biased.

    Of course warning notice and termination notice have to be properly worded and stated and served. I am not sure about the OP's case.

    Lately everything is simpler since I do not have part 4 tenancies anymore and the rare tenant that screws big gets a direct no reason 29 days termination notice.


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    #13
    FarmerBlee
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭FarmerBlee


    tvjunki wrote: »
    Have you accepted her offer? 3years to pay you back.If you accept the 100permonth then you are allowing her to stay. I personally would not allow this. If she is on hap if she does not pay her share you get nothing.
    Going to rtb is the same as court. Definately get a solicitor that has experience in this area.

    We have accepted her offer. Is this true that by accepting the offer we have allowed her to stay?

    She's not on HAP, it's rent allowance. Should we inform Social Welfare? Is this fraud? I'm worried that if we inform them, her money will be cut off and we'll be left with nothing.


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    #14
    FarmerBlee
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭FarmerBlee


    GGTrek wrote: »

    Of course warning notice and termination notice have to be properly worded and stated and served. I am not sure about the OP's case.
    .

    I'm pretty certain everything is properly worded etc. Tried to get her to sign a termination of lease letter, but she refused. Hope this won't go against us.

    Worst case scenario, if she stays past the end of tenancy date, but still pays the rent and still pays off her arrears, what can we do? Can I change the locks to the house? Can I call the Gardai and have them pay her a visit?

    Who has more rights here? Everything I've read online suggests the LL is potentially screwed and the tenant has all the rights. Seems unfair, but I've never had real life experience of anything like this.


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    #15
    airy fairy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭airy fairy


    If she's on rent allowance, she has a pocketed the money.
    Have you verbally accepted that she pay back? If so, forget the verbal and assume she is in arrears.
    Took me 12 months from our tenant keeping his rent allowance, bringing him to oral hearing of rtb, where they ruled he had to vacate, he stayed put, so finally a court order, barrister, the works, finally got him out.
    12 months of no rent paid, got away with 3/4 months of pocketing rent allowance.
    Tried to report to SW, and while they took details and stopped further payments, they couldn't produce this activity to me when bringing him to court, because under FOI he's entitled to privacy, ffs.
    Get your brother to get a solicitor.
    She knows exactly what she's doing.
    No doubt Threshold have advised her to stay put.
    Loads of cases of landlord v tenant in court on the day m case was heard. Threshold advised 95% of cases on the day to remind put in the house.


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    #16
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,718 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    FarmerBlee wrote: »
    We have accepted her offer. Is this true that by accepting the offer we have allowed her to stay?

    She's not on HAP, it's rent allowance. Should we inform Social Welfare? Is this fraud? I'm worried that if we inform them, her money will be cut off and we'll be left with nothing.

    Yes.

    If you want to actually see the cash, then the best course of action for now is to let her stay and be really on top of payments: make sure that she knows that two days late, and you'll be issuing a notice.

    Even if you do manage to get her evicted (and good luck with finding a judge who'll order that for a tenant who can demonstrate that they're paying) - you don't stand a hope in hell of getting the arrears if she's no longer living there.


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    #17
    FarmerBlee
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭FarmerBlee


    airy fairy wrote: »
    If she's on rent allowance, she has a pocketed the money.
    Have you verbally accepted that she pay back? If so, forget the verbal and assume she is in arrears.
    Took me 12 months from our tenant keeping his rent allowance, bringing him to oral hearing of rtb, where they ruled he had to vacate, he stayed put, so finally a court order, barrister, the works, finally got him out.
    12 months of no rent paid, got away with 3/4 months of pocketing rent allowance.
    Tried to report to SW, and while they took details and stopped further payments, they couldn't produce this activity to me when bringing him to court, because under FOI he's entitled to privacy, ffs.
    Get your brother to get a solicitor.
    She knows exactly what she's doing.
    No doubt Threshold have advised her to stay put.
    Loads of cases of landlord v tenant in court on the day m case was heard. Threshold advised 95% of cases on the day to remind put in the house.

    My god, that sounds appalling.

    He has accepted her repayment schedule in writing (email). Will this go against us?


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    #18
    FarmerBlee
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭FarmerBlee


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Yes.

    If you want to actually see the cash, then the best course of action for now is to let her stay and be really on top of payments: make sure that she knows that two days late, and you'll be issuing a notice.

    Even if you do manage to get her evicted (and good luck with finding a judge who'll order that for a tenant who can demonstrate that they're paying) - you don't stand a hope in hell of getting the arrears if she's no longer living there.


    My apologies, but is your 'yes' in response to my question about our acceptance of her repayment offer? Or are you saying we should inform social welfare?

    I feel that if we inform SW that any hope we have of getting paid rent will disappear entirely.


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    #19
    airy fairy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭airy fairy


    FarmerBlee wrote: »
    My god, that sounds appalling.

    He has accepted her repayment schedule in writing (email). Will this go against us?

    It won't go against you, if you leave heron the property. There's little you can do at this point, unless she's in the property less than 6 months she can be evicted for no reason. After 6 months this, you can o my evict if the property is being sold or your brother is coming home to live and wants it back.
    I decided after arrears after 3 months that I'd sell up. I was a landlord due to negative equity and wanted to be done with this crap. Even with my genuine reasons for selling, auctioneers letters etc, my tenant held on til the process was over. He knew damn well the courts had waiting lists for hearings so knew he wouldn't be evicted by the sheriff any time soon.
    Seek legal advice and say no more and sign no more til you e spoken to someone.


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    #20
    airy fairy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭airy fairy


    Dont report to SW unless you see no money again. At that point, don't report til you've served the final eviction notice of 28 days. Then once you know there's definitely no money lhanded over, then report to stop it.
    If you stop it now, you're only making a bigger enemy.
    And remember, even when she's in arrears, legally she holds all the tenant rights as if she was paying. Sickening


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    #21
    FarmerBlee
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭FarmerBlee


    airy fairy wrote: »
    It won't go against you, if you leave heron the property. There's little you can do at this point, unless she's in the property less than 6 months she can be evicted for no reason. After 6 months this, you can o my evict if the property is being sold or your brother is coming home to live and wants it back.
    I decided after arrears after 3 months that I'd sell up. I was a landlord due to negative equity and wanted to be done with this crap. Even with my genuine reasons for selling, auctioneers letters etc, my tenant held on til the process was over. He knew damn well the courts had waiting lists for hearings so knew he wouldn't be evicted by the sheriff any time soon.
    Seek legal advice and say no more and sign no more til you e spoken to someone.


    Thanks for the advice. Your situation sounds awful. Did you ever get any money back? Was it a whole 12 months of no rent? It does sound a whole lot easier to just sell up, but I can't see him doing this anytime soon, nor has he any plans to move back home. Although, let's see how this pans out...

    Just so I'm clear if we go ahead and continue with the eviction, and after the 28 days notice has expired and she hangs on in there, does the fact that he accepted her repayment schedule on writing does she have more of a leg to stand on?


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    #22
    airy fairy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭airy fairy


    FarmerBlee wrote: »
    Thanks for the advice. Your situation sounds awful. Did you ever get any money back? Was it a whole 12 months of no rent? It does sound a whole lot easier to just sell up, but I can't see him doing this anytime soon, nor has he any plans to move back home. Although, let's see how this pans out...

    Just so I'm clear if we go ahead and continue with the eviction, and after the 28 days notice has expired and she hangs on in there, does the fact that he accepted her repayment schedule on writing does she have more of a leg to stand on?

    I'm not familiar with a written agreement of something like that, but in effect, it's legally binding if the two have agreed, and so you have no basis to evict her if she starts paying.
    I think if it's 'only' 2/3 months loss of rent, and she's keeping the house well, and repaying a decent amount, plus current rent, then your brother might be better to cut his losses and let her stay. But one late payment, and I'd be ontop of her with eviction.

    Yes, €15k + in arrears, plus solicitor fees, barrister fees, and €1.5k to deep clean the disgusting way the tenant left the property.


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    #23
    FarmerBlee
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭FarmerBlee


    airy fairy wrote: »
    I'm not familiar with a written agreement of something like that, but in effect, it's legally binding if the two have agreed, and so you have no basis to evict her if she starts paying.
    I think if it's 'only' 2/3 months loss of rent, and she's keeping the house well, and repaying a decent amount, plus current rent, then your brother might be better to cut his losses and let her stay. But one late payment, and I'd be ontop of her with eviction.

    Yes, €15k + in arrears, plus solicitor fees, barrister fees, and €1.5k to deep clean the disgusting way the tenant left the property.

    Oh my Lord, our case seems mild in comparison. We're down 3K and hopefully in the process of being paid back. We'll still pursue this going down the right avenues. I just want to be as certain of ours and the tenants rights as possible.

    At the last inspection last April, the house seemed to be pretty clean. The garden isn't being looked after though. All overgrowing and unkempt. House itself seemed clean, few damp patches and the walls need to be painted, but nothing major. I hope.

    I just can't believe that things could escalate to the point where a tenant can stay in a house owing 15k and more. And the LL ends up down thousands at the end of the day. There's no fairness. Things need to change or LL's will be leaving the market in their droves.


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    #24
    Little Miss Fun
    Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭Little Miss Fun


    In the event of you having to leave the tenant in your brothers property, insist the portion of the council's rent is paid directly to you. The tenant should set up a direct debit to pay you weekly. I have set this agreement up prior to my tenant moving in and has worked relatively ok. Hopefully you will be able to set up this for the future. Hope you get this sorted as fast and as painless as possible.


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    #25
    Nomis21
    Registered Users Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭Nomis21


    tvjunki wrote:
    If you want her to leave then you have to wait until the lease is nearly up and tell her the lease will not be renewed. (Which is a landlords right.)


    How can you NOT have Part 4 tenancies any more? All tenancies are part 4 tenancies as after 6 months the tenant automatically receives part 4 protection. Or do you only give 6 month tenancies?


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    #26
    Browney7
    Registered Users Posts: 3,099 ✭✭✭Browney7


    Separate point, who is she paying rent to? If it's directly to your brother's bank account there are non resident tax issues to consider. If you are collecting and acting as an agent it would be different.


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    #27
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Nomis21 wrote: »
    How can you NOT have Part 4 tenancies any more? All tenancies are part 4 tenancies as after 6 months the tenant automatically receives part 4 protection. Or do you only give 6 month tenancies?

    +1
    A formal time delineated lease can set out the terms and conditions for living in a residence- however it cannot detract in any manner from the rights a tenant has under the Residential Tenancies Act. I.e. it is better to use it for clarification purposes, and to stick as closely as possible to the Residential Tenancies Act- and regardless of what you put in it- the RTA has primacy.

    You cannot remove any rights a tenant has under Part IV or any other provision of the RTA- in a formal lease.


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    #28
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    FarmerBlee wrote: »
    ..... And the LL ends up down thousands at the end of the day. There's no fairness. Things need to change or LL's will be leaving the market in their droves.

    They are. And switching to Airbnb.

    Smaller landlords can't afford those risks. Larger ones can better as the loss is balanced against other properties.

    If anything they will make tenants rights even stronger every opportunity they can.


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    #29
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    beauf wrote: »
    They are. And switching to Airbnb.

    Smaller landlords can't afford those risks. Larger ones can better as the loss is balanced against other properties.

    If anything they will make tenants rights even stronger every opportunity they can.

    I'm not sure that it will.
    The RTB's annual report has massaged the number of landlords by including the lettings of housing associations one-by-one to make it seem that the number of landlords in the private sector is remaining relatively static. The fact of the matter is- its going to be increasingly difficult to explain the exodus from the sector- in light of an increasingly tightening supply in the sector. If/when the Minister actually grasps that he has made it so unappealing to operate in the sector that people are voluntarily heading for the door- and its a big 'if'- he'll have no option but to sit down and reassess which policies are most likely to encourage them to stay- but won't impact on the vast majority of tenants. That would have to include provisions to remove delinquint tenants from properties- which patently is not working at the moment..........

    Ireland actually has remarkably strong tenancy rights- contrary to popular belief- and remarkably weak landlord protections. Its not politically correct to point this out though- esp. in the media.........


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    #30
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I would guess, smaller Landlords leaving are being replaced by larger companies which have lots of rentals.
    In the reports I read they seem to refer to the number of rentals and use that to infer that the no of Landlords hasn't changed that much.
    Also we have net immigration in term of population. So even if the no of rentals stays the same, the shortage of rentals would still be getting worse.

    The next door they'll probably shut is ability to vacate a property if its rented. You'll have to sell with the renter in place. Regardless if they are over-holding. I'm guessing.


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    #31
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    beauf wrote: »
    I would guess, smaller Landlords leaving are being replaced by larger companies which have lots of rentals.
    In the reports I read they seem to refer to the number of rentals and use that to infer that the no of Landlords hasn't changed that much.
    Also we have net immigration in term of population. So even if the no of rentals stays the same, the shortage of rentals would still be getting worse.

    The next door they'll probably shut is ability to vacate a property if its rented. You'll have to sell with the renter in place. Regardless if they are over-holding. I'm guessing.

    That'll destroy property prices- and if anyone gets wind of this happening- you'll have every single landlord in the country dumping property to try and escape the savaging in value a policy like that will cause to property prices.


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