The Vietnam War

tdv123 · 06-02-2014 8:40pm

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

I did say they(USA troops) should be congratulated, My point is many other armies would have been far more brutal if they had been
put in a protracted Guerilla war of attrition in the country side like that
For example the south Koreans commited over a dozen My Lai massacres
despite having a much smaller force in revenge for ambushs and such.

The allied armies(Philippines New Zealand Thailand Australia South Korea USA) where invited by SV to defend it against a communist war of aggression.
The Army of the Republic of South Vietnam lost about 266,000 killed from 1959 through 1974.

A free and fair election would have been impossible in a chaotic post -imperial country filed with armed communist insurgents and economy in dire states and most of the farmers uneducated and/or illiterate.
The(communist) machine would have won by terror, fraud and lying and that would have been the last ever held.

Once the Vietminese had a certain degree of education, stability and peace and prosperity they would have rejected communism out of hand
but of course the North decided the drown the South in blood instead

Vietminese civilians deaths where 843,000 (Mid range estimate)
the 2 million figure is communist lies. Communists lie.
In a free society people have to tell the truth in communist countries they lie.
Lieing to the population is the main pilar of such societies.

of those
The NLF killed 164,000 civilians in South Vietnam 1968-1974(mid range estimate)

Then their is the Deaths Caused by North Vietnamese Communist Power Consolidation and their final 1975 blitzkreig on the southern people
There are estimates that a minimum of 400,000 and a maximum of slightly less than 2.5 million people died of political violence from 1975-87 at the hands of Hanoi. as many as 2 million to sent camps. 3 million international refugees fled the ****-hole many dying at sea.

Not to mention the Vast war crimes commited in Cambodia and Laos
The communist's where noting more than violent, bullying scum
who devasted the region in a brutal war of agression, terror and opression
Thats the reality of Indo-china war. and threw away million troops to do it.
Was it worth it?

They where the real puppets of the Mao and Mosow.

Most of the vast amount bombs dropped(USA) where dropped on jungle bases, trails, roads, bridges not urban residental areas etc.
North Vietminese civilian causalties from aerial bombing are estimated at
50,000 to 182,000. Again due to restrictive nature of aerial bombing over north. More casualties in Laos and Cambodia of course the USA would not have to bomb the communist supply routes and bases there if the NLF had not invaded these countries in first place.

How in gods name can you get any more brutal than 2 million dead civilians? I think the only people who killed more than that were the Nazi's. Yea thanks US troops for not being nazi's.

DavidRamsay99 · 03-02-2015 2:46pm

johngalway wrote: »

Prompted by the fantastic documentary series posted in another thread I done a little more reading on the Vietnam war, mostly the American involvement therein.

Had they foregone the "body count" strategy and went for a conventional territorial hold, I wonder would they have fared better?

I realise a lot of the country is mountainous jungle, or other difficult places like the Delta.

Having watched one episode where great effort was made to capture a hill, which would then be deserted and the VC/NVA would stroll back up it unchallenged.

Was not holding territory a mistake, or was it impossible? Widening the war early into Laos and Cambodia may have been no bad thing, as areas of those countries seemed to have been under North Vietnamese control in a practical sense given the Ho Chi Minh trail, and the amount of fighters and supplies that were distributed by it.

What are peoples thoughts on all of this, was the war ever winnable?

The U.S. military smashed the Viet Cong and decimated the North Vietnamese Army in battle after battle after battle. The Vietnamization policy of gradually turning over responsibility for operations to the Vietnamese military was working as American troop numbers were reduced and eventually all combat troops were removed by 1973.
The reason South Vietnam collapsed so dramatically in 1975 is that the Democrat dominated Capitol Hill had cut funding.

After the Korean War the military junta in South Vietnam and their army were propped up for decades until democratic reforms were introduced.
There were enormous American forces in Western Europe and West Germany and Berlin throughout the Cold War.
So there was no excuse for cutting funding to South Vietnam and betraying millions who were later herded into concentration camps or took to the seas in boats.

When America withdrew the Chinese and Russians rebuilt the North Vietnamese Army and the final push on Saigon was launched.

Like Pilate, America washed their hands of the South Vietnamese.

History has repeated itself in Iraq with ISIS allowed to sweep through the Middle East like the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia forty years ago.

Savage93 · 03-02-2015 8:42pm

Canvasser wrote: »

You're absolutely right. The French and Americans were not "imperialists" they were humanitarians trying to spread freedom and democracy. The American airforce dropped humanitarian bombs on Vietnamese cities and liberated the communist held forests with Agent Orange. If the French and Americans had been left in Vietnam it would be the richest country in Asia today! There was no poverty when the French and American humanitarians ran Vietnam. Of course the South Vietnamese politicians were not US "puppets", they were democratically elected and loved by the Vietnamese people. They were entirely independent of the US and not influenced by them whatsoever.

You're absolutely right about Vietnam today too. The young Vietnamese are ashamed by the actions of their parents and grandparents in defeating the American Empire errr I mean American humanitarians and liberators. In fact most Vietnamese today think the My Lai massacre was a positive thing and was necessary to defeat the baby eating communists. Only American owned sweat shops can save the Vietnamese today from the Chinese.

PS I hope that post was a bit more modern and suited to the way the youth think today.

Is that you Claire Daly??????

James74 · 27-07-2015 6:10pm

The op on this thread referenced a Vietnam documentary, but I can't find the post that it referred to. Anybody remember what that documentary was? Or does anybody have any recommendations for any other Vietnam War documentary, either one-offs or series? Thanks folks.

James74 · 07-08-2015 1:33am

Just to update my own post about recommendations for a Vietnam War documentary, just finished watching the PBS series "Vietnam a Television History". Well presented, unflinching, often disturbing look at everything from the origins and history leading up to the war, the military manourvers on all sides, and the political and social fallout in the aftermath.

It's often a tough watch, presenting the war in all it horrific brutality, but I highly recommend it nevertheless.

Lemming · 10-08-2015 11:59pm

I've got a DVD collection (x8 discs) called "Vietnam" by Green Umbrella publishing. Been a while since I watched it but it spans from 1954 and the build-up to US involvement. Some of the content does address the Communist side of things, but footage is not as available (as one would imagine of the technology of the time) so stock footage gets used more than once as you'll notice.

The discs are in order:

Into the quagmire 1954-1964
Nex stop is Vietnam 1964-1966
America's war 1966-1667
The bloody slog towards Tet 1968
The fading light 1969-1970
Dust off 1970-1975
Prisoners Of War
An assassin's view

Jawgap · 08-04-2016 8:18pm

Due for release next year.....

The Vietnam War

The Vietnam War, a film by Ken Burns and Lynn Novick, is a
ten part, 18 and a half hour documentary film series
that sheds new light on the military, political, cultural, social, and
human dimensions of a tragedy of epic proportions that took the lives
of 58,000 Americans and as many as three million Vietnamese, polarized
American society as nothing has since the Civil War, fundamentally
challenged Americans’ faith in our leaders, our government, and many
of our most respected institutions, and called into question the
belief in our own exceptionalism.

The film will be structured chronologically, built around interviews
and personal stories of nearly 100 American and Vietnamese witnesses —
veterans as well as civilians — who lived through the war. Their
intimate, personal “bottom up” testimony will be interwoven throughout
with a parallel “top down” political and military narrative that
reveals American and Vietnamese decision makers’ goals, decisions,
strategies, public pronouncements, and private concerns. With
unprecedented access to both individuals and archives in Vietnam, as
well as to provocative and revelatory recent scholarship and rarely
seen archival material from around the globe, this film will present a
groundbreaking 360-degree narrative of the war, telling the story from
all sides, as it has never before been told, and hopefully inspiring a
new conversation about this divisive period in our history.

Keplar240B · 20-07-2016 2:30am

Operation Linebacker 2
Massive B-52 raid over Hanoi, December 1972. Aircraft interphone with mission livemap and subtitles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60ihI7VU2OY

Stars and Stripes · 02-02-2017 8:47pm

All the way with LBJ, How many kids did you kill today.

Snickers Man · 20-02-2017 12:16pm

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Communists lie.
In a free society people have to tell the truth in communist countries they lie.
Lieing to the population is the main pilar of such societies.

Fake news! Fake news!

Lemming · 01-05-2017 1:09am

Watched an excellent documentary titled Last days in Vietnam (I watched it on Netflix); cataloguing the build-up to & evacuation of Saigon in April 1975, starting with the signing of the Paris peace accords in 1973, Nixon's fall from office and the opportunity with which the North Vietnamese viewed his fall, precipitating their violation of the accords.

Didactic Ninja · 26-08-2017 8:08pm

Lemming wrote: »

Watched an excellent documentary titled (I watched it on Netflix); cataloguing the build-up to & evacuation of Saigon in April 1975, starting with the signing of the Paris peace accords in 1973, Nixon's fall from office and the opportunity with which the North Vietnamese viewed his fall, precipitating their violation of the accords.

great shout. i loved it.

Jawgap · 20-09-2017 4:42pm

Currently on hols and re-reading this......

.....as a prelude to watching Ken Burns' "The Vietnam War" when I get back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWFzaUlZz-k

Zerbini Blewitt · 10-10-2017 8:00pm

I have to give credit to RTE for buying in & broadcasting this (and I remember Vietnam: The Ten Thousand Day War on RTE too).

Three episodes in and Wow! Not only is this one of the best made & slickest war documentaries but one of the best made tv series of any genre.

Most of my thoughts on “the American War” (as the Vietnamese call it) would be political rather than military. Burns just reinforces these views. The former National Liberation Front fighters interviews (one thing I don’t remember from previous documentaries) are sobering.

Episode 3 finishes with Westmoreland’s urgent request in late ’65 to the WH for 200,000 more troops. ‘The message came as a shattering blow’ McNamara remembered. What more can be said militarily?

Also, where its done, the quality of remastered colour footage from the sixties is mesmerising.

don corleone · 25-11-2017 4:34am

The PBS documentary is outstanding. I'm absolutely hooked on it. For anyone in the same boat there is a very good podcast out there by The Washington Post called "The American War" it features interviews with the film makers after each episode aired in the US. It's a great insight into what they creators were trying to achieve in each episode and also some good discussion on the topics covered in each episode

Lemming · 01-08-2018 12:05am

don corleone wrote: »

The PBS documentary is outstanding. I'm absolutely hooked on it. For anyone in the same boat there is a very good podcast out there by The Washington Post called "The American War" it features interviews with the film makers after each episode aired in the US. It's a great insight into what they creators were trying to achieve in each episode and also some good discussion on the topics covered in each episode

Just finished watching the PBS documentary on Netflix there a few days ago. Outstanding 18 hours and I was hooked on it. The amount of content they had access to, and those that lived through the times (or the war itself) who participated, made for compelling viewing. The only thing I would say is the last two years of the war was covered with broad strokes but that's understandable given that there is already an excellent documentary chronicling the last two years of the war.

If you liked the PBS documentary, look up Last days in Vietnam on Netflix for a more in-depth view of what the collapse of a country looks like. It's mind-blowing in its tragedy.

Manic Moran · 20-08-2018 12:03pm

I’m slowly working my way through the Burns series, and am finding it interesting and well presented. Given that it obviously is a point of some professional study in my career as a US Army Officer, there are some pieces of backstory which may provide color or context which are missed, but if you don’t already know it, you won’t miss it. If this can skew affect your overall view of the war, I’ll decide when i’m finished.

That said, the show is not without its critics. For example, you may not have noticed that not one single person who appeared on the show was a historian. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/01/09/professors-debate-role-historian-or-lack-thereof-ken-burns-and-lynn-novicks-vietnam
Also, a number of veterans, particularly of the ARVN, had issues with the coverage.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/09/29/veterans-angry-disappointed-following-pbs-vietnam-war-documentary/

Snickers Man · 20-03-2020 6:03pm

Been watching the Ken Burns documentary on the Vietnam War on Netflix (seeing as they have discontinued his earlier and excellent series about the Civil War).

Particularly liked the apocryphal story illustrating US Defence Secretary McNamara's frustration with his policy of using computers (such as they were in the 1960s) to help with his decision making.

As a former business "whizz kid" ie one of the first generation of business managers to make use of computers to assist in decision making, he was a great believer in statistical analysis, operational research and systems analysis. Most Americans are, in fact.

The problem with this is that you can only manage what you can measure, and some things just don't lend themselves to statistical analysis. As he found when, according to legend, he finally lost patience with the slow progress of the war and demanded that his staff cut to the chase, feed every piece of data, and he meant EVERY piece of data into their largest computer and ask it the simple question: "When are we going to win this war?"

They loaded up the mainframe with everything they had: no of soldiers, no of bullets, amount of gasoline, numbers of planes, tanks, APCs, belt buckles etc etc etc programmed the computer on a Friday night and asked it the simple question. When they came back on Monday, the computer's output was ......

You won the war on 23rd October last year!

Maybe you'll want to watch the series to find out!

3d4life · 30-08-2020 10:46pm

End August 2020 : Remark in passing

The American CV19 death toll to date is over three times the American death toll for the entire Vietnam war.

30-08-2020 10:54pm

3d4life wrote: »

End August 2020 : Remark in passing

The American CV19 death toll to date is over three times the American death toll for the entire Vietnam war.

It is all about context. For instance, nearly 120k people died in car accidents in the US in the three years 17/18/19, which is double the number of US deaths in Vietnam.

3d4life · 31-08-2020 6:58pm

Context ?

Vietnam war : major public protests against it in the US of A while it was going on.

CV-19 : Public protests against efforts to control it

WTF

( If you want to get stuck into context look at Irish deaths due to drink related liver disease Vs transport deaths

)

31-08-2020 7:33pm

3d4life wrote: »

Context ?

Vietnam war : major public protests against it in the US of A while it was going on.

CV-19 : Public protests against efforts to control it

WTF

( If you want to get stuck into context look at Irish deaths due to drink related liver disease Vs transport deaths )

I don’t, I just wondered in what context you were relating Covid deaths to KIAs in Vietnam.

The Vietnam War

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