Mother denied Non-Contributory State Pension

TimesArrow · 14-10-2019 2:56pm #1

Hi,

Im not sure if this is the correct forum to place this but hopefully someone can help. My mother recently turned 66 and is trying to get non-contributory state pension. She has been denied this on the basis she owns her own home and is receiving maintenance from my father. She was a house wife the whole time my parents were married. However the circumstances are that she lives with her sister in Dublin and she rents out the house she owns in Limerick (this is her primary source of income and the main reason she lives in Dublin is because she couldn't afford to live in this house. she bought the house when we had to sell our family home a few years and bought it with her proceeds of the sale) and my father hasn't been paying regular or any sort of maintenance to her for years.

So basically I am trying to see if there is anything that can be done or could anyone steer me in the right path on this.

Thanks

Henry Ford III · 14-10-2019 3:53pm

Non contrib. OAP is means tested.

Do your research and appeal if needs be.

Mrs OBumble · 14-10-2019 4:30pm

She doesn't own her own home

She owns a gaf she's not living it. Sell it and reapply again after the cash left is below the asset threshold.

Afollower · 14-10-2019 4:38pm

I'm not an expert but I reckon the income she receives from renting out her house is taken as 'means' (income) which puts her above the threshold for qualifying for non-contrib OAP.

Mrs OBumble · 14-10-2019 5:04pm

Afollower wrote: »

I'm not an expert but I reckon the income she receives from renting out her house is taken as 'means' (income) which puts her above the threshold for qualifying for non-contrib OAP.

Wrong.

The income is not relevant, because it's from a property which is assessed on its capital value.

coylemj · 14-10-2019 5:16pm

TimesArrow wrote: »

She has been denied this on the basis she owns her own home and is receiving maintenance from my father.

How did they decide that she's getting maintenance from her husband if he is not paying her anything?

coylemj · 14-10-2019 5:26pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Wrong.

The income is not relevant, because it's from a property which is assessed on its capital value.

This is correct, because she's not living in the property. If you live in your own home and take in tenants, that income is counted in a means test. But if you do not live in your own home, it's counted as a capital asset with a notional income, regardless of whether you have it rented out or not.

If you (or your spouse, civil partner or cohabitant) own property that you are not personally using or if you have investments or any other form of capital, the value is assessed, using a standard formula. You may or may not be getting an income from the property or investment.

The notional income is €4 weekly per €1,000 of it's value above €40,000 plus €30 p.w. derived from the first €40,000.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/means_test_for_social_welfare_payments/means_test.html

splinter65 · 14-10-2019 5:33pm

You state that she is getting maintenance from your father and then later in your post you say she’s not getting it.
In her application she said that she was getting it and she told them how much she was getting.
(That’s a question in the application).
Are you now saying that she’s not getting any maintenance? Has she gone back to court to pursue the maintenance?
The capital value of your mothers house is being evaluated in the means test.
If she had moved to her sisters due to old age or ill health and was not renting out her home then the capital value would not be evaluated.
I don’t see you having any grounds to appeal unless she withdraws from the rental market, leaves the house empty, and produces evidence that she has tried and failed to enforce the maintenance order on your father.
When you are applying for a non con pension you are saying that you are beyond working age and need financial help to live from week to week.
The Dept naturally ask to see your weekly income. Your mother has quite truthfully told them that she had 2 sources of income, maintenance and rental income.
So they’ve decided that she doesn’t need a pension.

coylemj · 14-10-2019 5:38pm

splinter65 wrote: »

I don’t see you having any grounds to appeal unless she withdraws from the rental market, leaves the house empty, and produces evidence that she has tried and failed to enforce the maintenance order on your father.

As she doesn't live in the house that she owns, the rental income (or even if it's rented in the first place) is irrelevant. It's assumed to be generating an income, see post #7.

splinter65 · 14-10-2019 5:42pm

coylemj wrote: »

This is correct, because she's not living in the property. If you live in your own home and take in tenants, that income is counted in a means test. But if you do not live in your own home, it's counted as a capital asset with a notional income, regardless of whether you have it rented out or not.

If you (or your spouse, civil partner or cohabitant) own property that you are not personally using or if you have investments or any other form of capital, the value is assessed, using a standard formula. You may or may not be getting an income from the property or investment.

The notional income is €4 weekly per €1,000 of it's value above €40,000 plus €30 p.w. derived from the first €40,000.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/means_test_for_social_welfare_payments/means_test.html

Not totally correct. In the means test for non con pension it’s a bit different.

Leaving your home but not selling
If, due to old age or incapacity, you leave your home either on a temporary basis or indefinitely, the value of your home will not be assessed as means. However, if it is put to profitable use (for example, rented out), the capital value of the house will then be assessed as means.

splinter65 · 14-10-2019 5:43pm

coylemj wrote: »

As she doesn't live in the house that she owns, the rental income (or even if it's rented in the first place) is irrelevant. It's assumed to be generating an income, see post #7.

From Citizensinformation.ie

Leaving your home but not selling
If, due to old age or incapacity, you leave your home either on a temporary basis or indefinitely, the value of your home will not be assessed as means. However, if it is put to profitable use (for example, rented out), the capital value of the house will then be assessed as means.

splinter65 · 14-10-2019 5:45pm

coylemj wrote: »

How did they decide that she's getting maintenance from her husband if he is not paying her anything?

She was asked in the application form if she was getting maintenance . She’s obviously told them that she is, and how much.

coylemj · 14-10-2019 5:49pm

splinter65 wrote: »

If, due to old age or incapacity, you leave your home either on a temporary basis or indefinitely.......

Doesn't apply in this case. Read the OP's first post where he says that the reason his mother moved out of her house is because she cannot afford to live there. So she moved in with her sister and has rented out the house in Limerick. She moved purely for economic reasons - to reduce her day to day living expenses (by sharing electric and heating bills with her sister) and to get an income from the house.

If the house in Limerick is worth 250K, the formula says that there is an assumed income of €45,240 p.a. Which would completely blow her entitlement to any means-tested allowance.

splinter65 · 14-10-2019 6:54pm

coylemj wrote: »

Doesn't apply in this case. Read the OP's first post where he says that the reason his mother moved out of her house is because she cannot afford to live there. So she moved in with her sister and has rented out the house in Limerick. She moved purely for economic reasons - to reduce her day to day living expenses (by sharing electric and heating bills with her sister) and to get an income from the house.

If the house in Limerick is worth 250K, the formula says that there is an assumed income of €45,240 p.a. Which would completely blow her entitlement to any means-tested allowance.

I agree with you. Added to that she has obviously declared that she’s getting the maintenance. She has no grounds for appeal here that I can see.

TimesArrow · 14-10-2019 7:52pm

thanks for the replies.

to clarify, she had a maintenance arrangement with my fathe. she listed as it was in place, but that has pretty much ceased long agoand he has barely honored at all. even if he wanted to pay her, he cant, as he's completely broke.

splinter65 · 14-10-2019 8:08pm

TimesArrow wrote: »

thanks for the replies.

to clarify, she had a maintenance arrangement with my fathe. she listed as it was in place, but that has pretty much ceased long agoand he has barely honored at all. even if he wanted to pay her, he cant, as he's completely broke.

She needs to supply evidence of this, a letter from her solicitor would do. The problem with the rental income still remains.

coylemj · 14-10-2019 10:02pm

TimesArrow wrote: »

to clarify, she had a maintenance arrangement with my fathe. she listed as it was in place, but that has pretty much ceased long agoand he has barely honored at all. even if he wanted to pay her, he cant, as he's completely broke.

Her house is the problem, the maintenance is a side issue.

Just to summarise.....if you own a house and do not live in it, it's assumed to be an investment asset which is generating a return of roughly 20% of it's value per annum. That's whether you have a tenant in the house or not.

Realistically, she has no hope of getting the non-contributory pension in the current setup. As she's living in Dublin and the house is in Limerick, it's probably not a realistic proposition to suggest that she sell the house and buy one in Dublin. Especially when you told us that she bought that house with the proceeds of her share of the sale of the family home. Which would indicate that it's probably a modest place which, if she was to sell it, wouldn't buy much in Dublin.

CiarraiAbu2 · 14-10-2019 10:09pm

What social payment was she on and was she getting full payment

14-10-2019 10:11pm

TimesArrow wrote: »

thanks for the replies.

to clarify, she had a maintenance arrangement with my fathe. she listed as it was in place, but that has pretty much ceased long agoand he has barely honored at all. even if he wanted to pay her, he cant, as he's completely broke.

Does he have a house and a pension?

longgonesilver · 15-10-2019 3:08pm

What is the current legal position of your parents?

Mother denied Non-Contributory State Pension

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