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Home heating automation

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Comments

  • #1902
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭championc


    Maybe it might be easier to go with the likes of Tado, having Smart TRV's on all rads, essentially turning rads into their own zones (if the TRV's are linked to a single central Smart Thermostat). Up to 10 rads can be linked to a Smart Thermostat, to allow rads to turn the boiler on and off, irrespective of the setting on the main Smart Thermostat. So you could add Smart TRV's everywhere, or everywhere that you currently control with Zone valves


  • #1903
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭deezell


    Ush1 wrote: »
    I can understand when you mean switching the OT connection through the aux relay on the valve, but I don't see how that would get around when both valves are active won't both be trying to connect to the boiler OT thermals? I must be getting lost somewhere in the description.

    What I was suggesting, without any proof, is that it might be possible to change the source OT stat connected to the boiler on the fly, such that if either stat 1 alone or stat 2 alone is active, then this is the one connected to the OT terminals on the boiler. If neither or both are active, then the default is stat 1. The boiler will always be modulating, and with both zones active, according to the information from stat 1.
    Problems with this scenario would be if zone 1 was near target, the boiler might be modulating and producing a flow whose temperature would be efficient for condensor purposes, but may not be sufficient for zone 2 to reach target temperature. Only when zone 1 reaches target will it's relay actually close, handing control over to stat 2.
    The problem really is that by its very nature, boiler modulation will always reduce the firing to a point where the heating flow reduces in temperature to achieve a steady state, but never or rarely cutting off completely, and closing the zone valve.
    At least with the other wiring scheme there is no conflict. Stat 2 comes on and shorts the terminal, the boiler fires at full capacity until zone 2 hits target, thereby returning control to zone 1 stat 1.
    My suggestion was also predicated on the ability of the boiler to recognise the digital signal from a different OT source, crudely switched by a relay. It may not be able to do this instantaneously. There's also the small matter of wiring. OT sources are two wire balanced, for my suggestion both stat OT connections would have be combined on one wire into the boiler, say terminal OT1, while the other terminal OT2 from both stats, would be switched by the changeover relay. There are issues of non termination and impedance which could render such as circuit unreliable, as unterminated OT signals from one of the stats energise the cables, but analysing this is well beyond the scope of this thought experiment. If you had 2 nests already wired and working in SL mode, and then connected one only by its OT terminals, removing all SL connections, you could mock up a change of stat using an old double pole light switch. I'll put together a wiring diagram to explain the logic, probably tomorrow, but like I said, it's a bodge at best if it works, and may have odd effects as a result of the way modulated heating works, especially when both zone valves are open but only one stat is sending temperature info.


  • #1904
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭deezell


    I'll also talk to you about the nature of smart stats, and how they use integral modelling over time to generate their own version of modulation on a standard on/off boiler, mimicking OT modulation. The Tado does this really well


  • #1905
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭championc


    I'm getting more and more impressed with the Tado by the day. The better half wanted the sitting room a bit warmer this evening. I increased the temperature by 1°. The boiler came on, but only for a few minutes. It went off without the temperature being anywhere near having been increased by 1°.

    However, the TRV has obviously learned as to how long it takes to increase the temperature in the room and so, low and behold, the room temperature gradually increased to the required level, and no higher, so not a single bit of gas is wasted.

    Maybe I've missed something but from what I've experienced, a Tado will certainly save money by giving full room to room flexibility. I cannot see how a Nest can really save much, unless in conjunction with other controls


  • #1906
    Ush1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    championc wrote: »
    Maybe it might be easier to go with the likes of Tado, having Smart TRV's on all rads, essentially turning rads into their own zones (if the TRV's are linked to a single central Smart Thermostat). Up to 10 rads can be linked to a Smart Thermostat, to allow rads to turn the boiler on and off, irrespective of the setting on the main Smart Thermostat. So you could add Smart TRV's everywhere, or everywhere that you currently control with Zone valves

    Thats fine but it doesn't get around the issue of 2 zones and Opentherm.


  • #1907
    snowstreams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭snowstreams


    I got a tado starter kit on an Amazon deal last week. The extension kit with a smart thermostat.
    I have a 3 zone controller at the moment, upstairs downstairs and water.
    So I have connected in the smart thermostat to upstairs for now and wanted to use the extension kit to control the hot water on cloudy days (I have solar hot water).
    But tado support then told me that I can't use the extension kit since my controller is 3 zones.
    I still think I could replace my controller and wired the old stat and water to the extension kit. Then leave the new smart thermostat in a hardwired ON state since that's the state it needs to be left in for tado to work.
    Has anyone here tried doing something like this? Or are there any reasons not to do this?


  • #1908
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭championc


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Thats fine but it doesn't get around the issue of 2 zones and Opentherm.

    The point I was making was that you basically set those permanently open and allow individual rooms beyond the zone valves to be the Zones. If all rads TRV's in that zone are closed, it's the same thing as having the zone closed.


  • #1909
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭championc


    snowstreams wrote: »
    I got a tado starter kit on an Amazon deal last week. The extension kit with a smart thermostat.
    I have a 3 zone controller at the moment, upstairs downstairs and water.
    So I have connected in the smart thermostat to upstairs for now and wanted to use the extension kit to control the hot water on cloudy days (I have solar hot water).
    But tado support then told me that I can't use the extension kit since my controller is 3 zones.
    I still think I could replace my controller and wired the old stat and water to the extension kit. Then leave the new smart thermostat in a hardwired ON state since that's the state it needs to be left in for tado to work.
    Has anyone here tried doing something like this? Or are there any reasons not to do this?

    That's somewhere where I was. I had a zone for Upstairs. I have a Kingspan thermomax solar tubes system for hot water, but because I have a Combi Boiler, I don't have any need for a hot water "zone" so I have just the two zones - Downstairs and Whole house (when upstairs valve is opened.

    But as I said to Ush1, I think you could make a far more effective setup with Smart Radiator Thermostats on all of your upstairs rads, which would essentially do away with your upstairs zone value.

    As I said in my post last night, I cannot really see how an individual (or two) Smart thermostats can make any great amount of savings to your heating bill but I can absolutely see now how the Smart Radiator Thermostats can save money by only heating rooms to the temperature required and not wildly fluctuating above and below the thresholds set in a traditional TRV. So if I set my sitting room for 22, it pretty much stays within the 22 deg range for the period it's set for, rather than swinging between 21 and 23 or whatever.


  • #1910
    snowstreams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭snowstreams


    I don't have trvs on my radiators yet. I'll install them over the summer and stock up on tado radiator valves on the next sale.
    But I wanted to be able to remotely turn off on hot water for cloudy days etc if we had been away.
    I'll play around with the extension kit at the weekend anyway since I don't think it's worth returning it.
    It should do what I want, then I'll use some other thermostat to check the tank temperature remotely too.


  • #1911
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭deezell


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Thats fine but it doesn't get around the issue of 2 zones and Opentherm.
    I've had a look at the logic combi installation, it's standard setup. For normal firing the link across the stst/timerL terminals is removed and these terminal connected to a stat/ timer relay. For OT firing, this link remains and the OT link is removed and connected to the stat' s OT terminals. A short across these terminals will fire the boiler in normal mode.

    514482.jpg


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  • #1912
    Ush1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    championc wrote: »
    The point I was making was that you basically set those permanently open and allow individual rooms beyond the zone valves to be the Zones. If all rads TRV's in that zone are closed, it's the same thing as having the zone closed.

    No it isn't the same. The zone valves stop hot water from getting to the upstairs pipework, TRVs only stop water getting to the rad.


  • #1913
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭championc


    Ush1 wrote: »
    No it isn't the same. The zone valves stop hot water from getting to the upstairs pipework, TRVs only stop water getting to the rad.

    Eh ? If no TRV is open, then no water can flow around that whole section of the pipework, from the point where that whole section branches off from active sections.

    So it absolutely can indeed turn all of that whole section into a "zone" - yes ?


  • #1914
    Ush1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    deezell wrote: »
    I've had a look at the logic combi installation, it's standard setup. For normal firing the link across the stst/timerL terminals is removed and these terminal connected to a stat/ timer relay. For OT firing, this link remains and the OT link is removed and connected to the stat' s OT terminals. A short across these terminals will fire the boiler in normal mode.

    514482.jpg

    Thanks a mill deezell, legend. So worse case it looks like I'll at least to able to have downstairs OT and upstairs just standard firing.

    I'll do some tests when I get the Nest stats and let you know how I get on.


  • #1915
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭deezell


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Thanks a mill deezell, legend. So worse case it looks like I'll at least to able to have downstairs OT and upstairs just standard firing.

    I'll do some tests when I get the Nest stats and let you know how I get on.

    That would be best, it's within the protocol and allows the boiler to fire at full tilt when zone 2 kicks in, returning to modulation for zone 1 only . The other scenario is unproven, whereby you use the valve contacts to switch the OT source depending on zone valves state.. Using both valve contacts would allow you to select OT1 for Zone1 ON only, both Zones ON and both zones OFF, (system idle), with OT2 connected only for Zone 2 ON only.

    Zone 1 |Zone 2 |OT Source
    OFF |OFF |Zone1
    ON |OFF |Zone1
    ON |ON |Zone1
    OFF |ON |Zone2 See if you can figure the wiring to satisfy this logic using the terminals of the two zone valve relays! Answer tomorrow.


  • #1916
    comfort
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭comfort


    Hi guys, just a quick question as I seem to have a brain freeze. I have the Hive System (3 Zone - DS, US & HW). Now that Hive is HomeKit compatible has been a nice improvement albeit small as the HW zone is not HomeKit compatible. Anyway my question is this, with hive can I install TRV's and both work or does one override the other ? I would not be installing TRV on all the rads at once.

    Many thanks


  • #1917
    Ush1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    deezell wrote: »
    That would be best, it's within the protocol and allows the boiler to fire at full tilt when zone 2 kicks in, returning to modulation for zone 1 only . The other scenario is unproven, whereby you use the valve contacts to switch the OT source depending on zone valves state.. Using both valve contacts would allow you to select OT1 for Zone1 ON only, both Zones ON and both zones OFF, (system idle), with OT2 connected only for Zone 2 ON only.

    Zone 1 |Zone 2 |OT Source
    OFF |OFF |Zone1
    ON |OFF |Zone1
    ON |ON |Zone1
    OFF |ON |Zone2 See if you can figure the wiring to satisfy this logic using the terminals of the two zone valve relays! Answer tomorrow.

    Might be being silly here but I actually can't see how I can do it even with just one zone opentherm.

    I presume the Opentherm connection is supposed to be permanent, otherwise it just fires heating normally as you said before. I spoke to Nest and they said when the stat is in Opentherm mode it won't click the relay. This causes an issue where I have nothing to drive the valve, as far as I can see.


  • #1918
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭deezell


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Might be being silly here but I actually can't see how I can do it even with just one zone opentherm.

    I presume the Opentherm connection is supposed to be permanent, otherwise it just fires heating normally as you said before. I spoke to Nest and they said when the stat is in Opentherm mode it won't click the relay. This causes an issue where I have nothing to drive the valve, as far as I can see.

    Well that's that then. The same goes for the Drayton Wiser. It seems like it's more trouble than it's worth, and your only other option is single Zone, with smart TRVs on a schedule to give you back a zoned system, but that can be expensive. I've found the tado excellent in mimicking modulation. What you are trying to achieve is tight control of temperature, where the stat behind to cut the boiler in advance of the target, to prevent overshoot, and ditto as it measures the temperature dropping. The second element is when it pulses the boiler around this point, short bursts, cooled return flow to optimise condensor boiler efficiency. At the same time it will respond to a sudden increase request, say from 15° or lower in away mode to 22° when it detects you're on the way. This will require the boiler to pump well heated water to geta rapid rate of change of temperature, but it is constantit measuring this rate, and also the lag in response, so can work out when to cut and pulse, greeting you with an almost exact temperature on arrival. Consider the Tado or Drayton wired on/off. Both have integrated TRVs as part of their kit.


  • #1919
    Ush1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    deezell wrote: »
    Well that's that then. The same goes for the Drayton Wiser. It seems like it's more trouble than it's worth, and your only other option is single Zone, with smart TRVs on a schedule to give you back a zoned system, but that can be expensive. I've found the tado excellent in mimicking modulation. What you are trying to achieve is tight control of temperature, where the stat behind to cut the boiler in advance of the target, to prevent overshoot, and ditto as it measures the temperature dropping. The second element is when it pulses the boiler around this point, short bursts, cooled return flow to optimise condensor boiler efficiency. At the same time it will respond to a sudden increase request, say from 15° or lower in away mode to 22° when it detects you're on the way. This will require the boiler to pump well heated water to geta rapid rate of change of temperature, but it is constantit measuring this rate, and also the lag in response, so can work out when to cut and pulse, greeting you with an almost exact temperature on arrival. Consider the Tado or Drayton wired on/off. Both have integrated TRVs as part of their kit.

    One last thing I found looks interesting but pretty tricky:
    https://www.domoticaforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=11419&p=80759&hilit=2+zones#p80816

    That guys post contradicts what Nest told me though about the relay clicking, but the post is from 2016 so maybe the firmware changed or something.

    Other options would be the Ember system which does what I want but its expensive and no integrated smart TRVs.

    Final one is no Opentherm and an integrated smart TRV system, auch as the Drayton or Tado. Really want to make use of Opentherm though!:pac:


  • #1920
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭deezell


    Ush1 wrote: »
    One last thing I found looks interesting but pretty tricky:
    https://www.domoticaforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=11419&p=80759&hilit=2+zones#p80816

    That guys post contradicts what Nest told me though about the relay clicking, but the post is from 2016 so maybe the firmware changed or something.

    Other options would be the Ember system which does what I want but its expensive and no integrated smart TRVs.

    Final one is no Opentherm and an integrated smart TRV system, auch as the Drayton or Tado. Really want to make use of Opentherm though!:pac:

    You could partially, by having only the main zone on OT, with it's zone valve always open, then zone 2 will jump in and out as required. You won't be able to turn off zone 1 while 2 is calling though, so the temperature of zone 1 will increase regardless of its stat. Not a great option. There's almost no hard information out there on the Nest and OT connection, but then Nest was never positioned as a zoned system, what with each heatlink box having a HW relay, you end up with two when you buy 2 nests. In fact the heatlink only exists because of the European market, with live mains switching of boilers and plumbed HW tanks. US Nest connects straight to the boiler low current trigger terminals, often from a legacy boiler which is passively powered by a millivolt thermopile. Zoning in the US is often the opening and closing of warm air baffles rather than redirecting hot water flows. Tado might be your best bet for zoned OT, with a query to Tado support your first move.


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  • #1921
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭deezell


    Ush1 wrote: »
    One last thing I found looks interesting but pretty tricky:
    https://www.domoticaforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=11419&p=80759&hilit=2+zones#p80816

    ......Final one is no Opentherm and an integrated smart TRV system, auch as the Drayton or Tado. Really want to make use of Opentherm though!:pac:

    Missed this comment, readng in the sunshine. Tado and Drayton with their respective TRVs can still be connected by OT afaik. Drayton OT is an add in module into the relay box, Its included in the Tado stat or its wireless ext kit, no extra bits. OT modulation will work just as well while individual TRVs open and close.


  • #1922
    chrismon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭chrismon


    Hi all,

    Looking for a bit of advice.

    I have a bungalow with 11 rads, heated by an oil burner and a back boiler.
    Iv had a plumber in who said the house can't be zoned without ripping up floors etc, my only real option is TRVs.

    I was looking at the Tado TRVs (I need a plumber to install normal TRVs first, anyone seen any compatibility issues?).

    Currently I use my oil burner to heat up my house to temp, then use my back boiler to keep it warm.

    Will the Tado TRV still open / close the valve when I don't want my boiler running (using the back boiler) and the room reaches its desired temp (close the valve)?

    Any help would be appreciated.

    Chris.


  • #1923
    GarIT
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    chrismon wrote: »
    Hi all,

    Looking for a bit of advice.

    I have a bungalow with 11 rads, heated by an oil burner and a back boiler.
    Iv had a plumber in who said the house can't be zoned without ripping up floors etc, my only real option is TRVs.

    I was looking at the Tado TRVs (I need a plumber to install normal TRVs first, anyone seen any compatibility issues?).

    Currently I use my oil burner to heat up my house to temp, then use my back boiler to keep it warm.

    Will the Tado TRV still open / close the valve when I don't want my boiler running (using the back boiler) and the room reaches its desired temp (close the valve)?

    Any help would be appreciated.

    Chris.


    Tado will run the boiler when any room is below the set temperature. Typicaly if a valve is open the boiler is on.


  • #1924
    chrismon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭chrismon


    GarIT wrote: »
    Tado will run the boiler when any room is below the set temperature. Typicaly if a valve is open the boiler is on.

    Thanks GarIT.

    If Tado is only set to run the boiler at say 18:00-19:00, will the TRVs still open/close outside of the 'run time' like a normal TRV?


  • #1925
    GarIT
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    chrismon wrote: »
    Thanks GarIT.

    If Tado is only set to run the boiler at say 18:00-19:00, will the TRVs still open/close outside of the 'run time' like a normal TRV?


    They stay closed when the room is above the set temperature.


  • #1926
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭deezell


    chrismon wrote: »
    Thanks GarIT.

    If Tado is only set to run the boiler at say 18:00-19:00, will the TRVs still open/close outside of the 'run time' like a normal TRV?

    That's like apples and oranges, trying to think in terms of fixed boiler time running, regardless of need, compared to fully programmed time and temperature controlled zones. The latter is how tado operates. If you only want the boiler to fire for a single hour during the day, you set its schedule for each TRV equipped rad, and the open rads governedby the general thermostat. Once you add a solid fuel boiler, you will need to have some rads open at all times and a circulation pump on a stove stat. This will ensure heat is alway diissapated from the stove.if your system has some kind of relay control box to fire the boilers, control pumps, such as a systemlex, you can use one of it's built in relays to disrupt SL power to the oil boiler when the stove stat closes at its target temperature. You can also active this by routing the boiler SL live source to the Tado main stat from the stove thermostat NC terminal, which will be live when the stove is unlit.
    Some assumptions, your oil boiler hot flow does not backfeed into the stove jacket, boiler and stove hot flows should be combined in a pressure neutral manifold, with a seperate pump and or zone valves from there to the rads.

    If you want your TRVs to open and call for heat, but not actually get any unless the stove is lit, you could have them dissociated from the main stat which fires the boiler on their behalf, but this kind of defeats the purpose of the system. If you program a TRV in a room to say 18° from 7.00 am until 9.00am, breakfast time , then down to 15°thereafter, it's got to be able to fire the boiler, it's unlikely you'll be up at 6.30 stoking the stove.
    You have to learn to trust the system to give you the best mix of comfort and savings on an oil/gas only basis, then allow the stove stat to cut the boiler source when it's burning, but only when it's burning.


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  • #1927
    chrismon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭chrismon


    deezell wrote: »
    That's like apples and oranges, trying to think in terms of fixed boiler time running, regardless of need, compared to fully programmed time and temperature controlled zones. The latter is how tado operates. If you only want the boiler to fire for a single hour during the day, you set its schedule for each TRV equipped rad, and the open rads governedby the general thermostat. Once you add a solid fuel boiler, you will need to have some rads open at all times and a circulation pump on a stove stat. This will ensure heat is alway diissapated from the stove.if your system has some kind of relay control box to fire the boilers, control pumps, such as a systemlex, you can use one of it's built in relays to disrupt SL power to the oil boiler when the stove stat closes at its target temperature. You can also active this by routing the boiler SL live source to the Tado main stat from the stove thermostat NC terminal, which will be live when the stove is unlit.
    Some assumptions, your oil boiler hot flow does not backfeed into the stove jacket, boiler and stove hot flows should be combined in a pressure neutral manifold, with a seperate pump and or zone valves from there to the rads.

    If you want your TRVs to open and call for heat, but not actually get any unless the stove is lit, you could have them dissociated from the main stat which fires the boiler on their behalf, but this kind of defeats the purpose of the system. If you program a TRV in a room to say 18° from 7.00 am until 9.00am, breakfast time , then down to 15°thereafter, it's got to be able to fire the boiler, it's unlikely you'll be up at 6.30 stoking the stove.
    You have to learn to trust the system to give you the best mix of comfort and savings on an oil/gas only basis, then allow the stove stat to cut the boiler source when it's burning, but only when it's burning.

    Thank you for the detailed response!

    The system in the house is very basic, no dual coil cylinder, no manifold etc.
    Back boiler stat controls a pump (separate from oil burner) on rising temperature. There is no control between back boiler and oil burner.

    My main reason for looking at a system like this was to give me some sort of zoned control, trying to make the best out of an old system.

    The way the house is plumbed, the bedrooms are the last to get heat from the back boiler, would be great to be able to 'turn off all zones except bedrooms' to 'push' heat that direction from say 9pm-10pm.

    I might look into only allowing the main oil boiler to fire if the back boiler is not running / lit, having it on a timeclock or something similar.

    Thanks for the help.


  • #1928
    Alkers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Alkers


    Jumping on the thread bandwagon but didn't want to start a new thread.

    We've gfch fed by a combi boiler which works great for us as we have the heating on thermostat and timer. We manually turn off any rooms that were not using (guest room) at the radiator.

    It is looking like I will be working from home on at least a part-time basis for the foreseeable future. When it gets into winter I will be the only one home and working from the small office only. Obviously I could go around and turn off all the other rads each morning and back on on the evening but I want to avoid this? Any options out there where I want to have one rad on and all the others off? If I have to buy smart valves for all rads it could be pretty dear, might be easier / cheaper to just get an electric heater for the office?


  • #1929
    emaherx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,203 ✭✭✭emaherx


    Alkers wrote: »
    Jumping on the thread bandwagon but didn't want to start a new thread.

    We've gfch fed by a combi boiler which works great for us as we have the heating on thermostat and timer. We manually turn off any rooms that were not using (guest room) at the radiator.

    It is looking like I will be working from home on at least a part-time basis for the foreseeable future. When it gets into winter I will be the only one home and working from the small office only. Obviously I could go around and turn off all the other rads each morning and back on on the evening but I want to avoid this? Any options out there where I want to have one rad on and all the others off? If I have to buy smart valves for all rads it could be pretty dear, might be easier / cheaper to just get an electric heater for the office?

    Electric heater will be expensive to run.
    There are lots of options for radiator control, from about €10 per radiator for the cheapest not so smart timed TRV's.


  • #1930
    GarIT
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    chrismon wrote: »
    Thank you for the detailed response!

    The system in the house is very basic, no dual coil cylinder, no manifold etc.
    Back boiler stat controls a pump (separate from oil burner) on rising temperature. There is no control between back boiler and oil burner.

    My main reason for looking at a system like this was to give me some sort of zoned control, trying to make the best out of an old system.

    The way the house is plumbed, the bedrooms are the last to get heat from the back boiler, would be great to be able to 'turn off all zones except bedrooms' to 'push' heat that direction from say 9pm-10pm.

    I might look into only allowing the main oil boiler to fire if the back boiler is not running / lit, having it on a timeclock or something similar.

    Thanks for the help.


    This will break Tado's "brain". Tado learns over time how long each room takes to heat under various conditions. If it thinks it is turning on the boiler but no heat is provided it will think your house is slow to heat and will develop a heating plan based on that. It's a great system but I don't think the smart thermostat connected to the boiler in a system with a back boiler is compatible.


    You could just get the stats on the rads. Which would mean the boiler won't automatically tuern on when it's cold and you lose other features but it would allow you to only heat certain rooms based on a schedule/temperature


  • #1931
    chrismon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭chrismon


    GarIT wrote: »
    This will break Tado's "brain". Tado learns over time how long each room takes to heat under various conditions. If it thinks it is turning on the boiler but no heat is provided it will think your house is slow to heat and will develop a heating plan based on that. It's a great system but I don't think the smart thermostat connected to the boiler in a system with a back boiler is compatible.


    You could just get the stats on the rads. Which would mean the boiler won't automatically tuern on when it's cold and you lose other features but it would allow you to only heat certain rooms based on a schedule/temperature

    Thanks for the clarification GarIT.

    I didn't realise it developed a heating plan :pac:

    I'd say normal TRV's will be the way to go so.


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  • #1932
    comfort
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭comfort


    Hi guys, just a quick question as I seem to have a brain freeze. I have the Hive System (3 Zone - DS, US & HW). Now that Hive is HomeKit compatible has been a nice improvement albeit small as the HW zone is not HomeKit compatible. Anyway my question is this, with hive can I install TRV's and both work or does one override the other ? I would not be installing TRV on all the rads at once.

    Many thanks


  • #1933
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭deezell


    comfort wrote: »
    Hi guys, just a quick question as I seem to have a brain freeze. I have the Hive System (3 Zone - DS, US & HW). Now that Hive is HomeKit compatible has been a nice improvement albeit small as the HW zone is not HomeKit compatible. Anyway my question is this, with hive can I install TRV's and both work or does one override the other ? I would not be installing TRV on all the rads at once.

    Many thanks

    Hive TRVs work through the hive hub and override the existing stat to turn on heating if the TRV requests heat. Rads with no TRVs on the same zone will heat as a result. So if the existing stat is satisfied, it will cut the boiler, unless a TRV on the same zone is not at target temperature.
    You would selectively fit smart TRVs for two reasons; to facilitate taking out certain rooms during the main general stat heating cycle, e.g., living room generally not needed in the morning during downstairs zone heating, or, to ensure a room in a zone reaches required temperature regardless of the general zone stat, which may cut the zone heat before this room hits target. E.g, a harder to heat corner bedroom might need a bit longer to heat than the zone stat in the landing allows before it hits it's local target. A baby's room might need more consistent heating overnight. It's always a compromise when you have mixed open rads and TRV rads.


  • #1934
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭deezell


    GarIT wrote: »
    ...... I don't think the smart thermostat connected to the boiler in a system with a back boiler is compatible.....
    There is no issue with connecting a smart stat as the control element in a system with a stat controlled boiler and a stove/back boiler. If the stove is connected to passively cut the oil boiler when it's heating contribution reaches a certain threshold, e.g, stove temperature reaches say 60°, then the system will work without the smart stat noticing that the heating source has 'handed over'. As the stove burns down, it temperature drops and hands back to the oil. The only uncontrollable situation is to have a very large SF stove, or have one burning fiercely providing more heat than is required by the system, meaning house or zone temperatures will exceed the smart stat setting. This is not likely to confuse the smart stat. It just stays off. In order to dissapate the unneeded heat from the stove in this situation, at least one zone must be activated by the stove stat regardless of the status of the smart stat, so say the living room zone is kept open and receiving heat to the rads from the stove. If it gets too warm, you know what to do.


  • #1935
    GarIT
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    deezell wrote: »
    There is no issue with connecting a smart stat as the control element in a system with a stat controlled boiler and a stove/back boiler. If the stove is connected to passively cut the oil boiler when it's heating contribution reaches a certain threshold, e.g, stove temperature reaches say 60°, then the system will work without the smart stat noticing that the heating source has 'handed over'. As the stove burns down, it temperature drops and hands back to the oil. The only uncontrollable situation is to have a very large SF stove, or have one burning fiercely providing more heat than is required by the system, meaning house or zone temperatures will exceed the smart stat setting. This is not likely to confuse the smart stat. It just stays off. In order to dissapate the unneeded heat from the stove in this situation, at least one zone must be activated by the stove stat regardless of the status of the smart stat, so say the living room zone is kept open and receiving heat to the rads from the stove. If it gets too warm, you know what to do.


    I didn't think of it being done automatically with heat or pump activation, a timeclock was mentioned so that's what I was going off. And I guess it still would work even if done manually but it would be defeating many of the features Tado are selling.


  • #1936
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭deezell


    GarIT wrote: »
    I didn't think of it being done automatically with heat or pump activation, a timeclock was mentioned so that's what I was going off. And I guess it still would work even if done manually but it would be defeating many of the features Tado are selling.

    All the timing you need is in the smart stats/TRVs. I understand how easy it is to be conditioned to an actual crude timing device, almost like a failsafe, lest you accidentally have the heat on when you should be freezing. The Tado or other stats are perfectly capable of frugality, and Ebenezer mode. Don't forget, a crude timer will turn it on when it's not needed also, say on an unseasonably warm day, or you are working in a hot kitchen with ring/ovens, or when you're out for the day. Smart stats/TRVs take care of all that.
    It's similar to our obsession with timing the HW, as if we can somehow 'save' by anticipating the exact moment we'll need some, and trying to heat it just in advance. It's a behaviour born of the expensive electric immersion heating era, and uninsulated cylinders. You might as well have a timer on the fridge door, you wont eat any less even if you did.


  • #1937
    Ush1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Need some wiring help.

    Replacing a two channel eph programmer with two nest stats with heatlinks.

    See attached pics for the old wiring. I've put the live into the NO on the first heatlink and the grey cable for zone 1 to the C on the heatlink, works perfectly for one zone but I can't seem to get the second wiring correct. Ended blowing the fuse switching things round last night. Any help appreciated.


  • #1938
    Ush1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Need some wiring help.

    Replacing a two channel eph programmer with two nest stats with heatlinks.

    See attached pics for the old wiring. I've put the live into the NO on the first heatlink and the grey cables for zone 1 to the common, works perfectly for one zone but I can't seem to get the second wiring correct. Ended blowing the fuse switching things round last night. Any help appreciated.

    Other pic.


  • #1939
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭deezell


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Other pic.

    I assume you powered both heatlinks from the live and neutral that originally went to the eph. The heatlink relays are volt free, so you must loop the live from the L terminal generally to common, terminal 2 in the heatlink(s), and connect the zone calls for heat, the grey wires, one each to terminals 3 on each Heatlink. It should make no difference if these are reversed, between 2 and 3, it's just a relay, but make sure you looped the live to the relay terminal, not the neutral. You can check by turning up/down the stats if they are both clicking ON and the little indicator lights up on the heatlink.


  • #1940
    Ush1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    deezell wrote: »
    I assume you powered both heatlinks from the live and neutral that originally went to the eph. The heatlink relays are volt free, so you must loop the live from the L terminal generally to common, terminal 2 in the heatlink(s), and connect the zone calls for heat, the grey wires, one each to terminals 3 on each Heatlink. It should make no difference if these are reversed, between 2 and 3, it's just a relay, but make sure you looped the live to the relay terminal, not the neutral. You can check by turning up/down the stats if they are both clicking ON and the little indicator lights up on the heatlink.

    Thanks, just a couple of things.

    The heatlinks are battery powered believe it or not.

    I would have thought exactly the same as you and also that it wouldn't matter which way round the cables would go but when I put the live to the common on the nest and N/O to zone 1, zone 1 heating is on continously! It's very odd but this cables goes back to the wiring centre and the valves are wired to that also, see here:

    https://www.ephcontrols.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/CR22_PRF_WD_JW.pdf

    EDIT: nevermind, my dodgy cabling, all good now! Cheers deezell.


  • #1941
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭deezell


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Thanks, just a couple of things.

    The heatlinks are battery powered believe it or not.

    I would have thought exactly the same as you and also that it wouldn't matter which way round the cables would go but when I put the live to the common on the nest and N/O to zone 1, zone 1 heating is on continously! It's very odd but this cables goes back to the wiring centre and the valves are wired to that also, see here:

    https://www.ephcontrols.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/CR22_PRF_WD_JW.pdf

    EDIT: nevermind, my dodgy cabling, all good now! Cheers deezell.

    Great. I see you are using the Nest E. Heatlink is battery powered, and apparently, to save battery, it only communicates with the stat every 20 seconds to see if it should turn on or off. Most people wouldn't notice the latency. There is an extra terminal in the heatlink, labelled FP, and the diagram shows it internally connected to NC on the relay via a diode, or possibly a sensor. Zero information on its function to be had anywhere, other than the fact that apparently the heatlink has a built in temperature sensor which does nothing. I'm guessing the letters FP mean Frost Protection, but I can find no reference to this in any support docs. Perhaps the heatlink has FP, or the FP terminal is there to support boilers with FP sensor input, but it's not yet implemented.


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  • #1942
    paulgrogan.eu
    Registered Users Posts: 289 ✭✭paulgrogan.eu


    Hi Folks,


    So I've been planning to post the following report here for a while having recently had Tado installed in my home. The purpose of which is 2 fold - 1 to acknowledge those who helped me piece it all together with advice and guidance, and 2, to perhaps help others who may have a similar setup and essentially group all my learning into 1 post. So, here goes!


    • My initial setup: Dormer house with a Firebird Heatpac S90 Oil Boiler. Rads split into 2 zones, upstairs and downstairs and of course a hot water tank. I had no thermostats at all, other than regular TRV's on the rads, and a simple on/off timer on the wall to manage my boiler being on/off. So in short, no control of the system really and plenty of oil being guzzled!
    • First job was to replace the Heatmerchants electronic zone valves as these were troublesome for controlling the feeds to the 2 zones. After much research, these were replaced with Honeywell V4043 valves, and I also had a 3rd added to the pipe feeding the hotwater tank to allow us to control this going forward.

      Note here: About a week before we kicked this work off, we poured a central heating cleaning agent into the system to circulate around the system before we drained it down. Well worth doing.
    • Next was to fit a thermostat to the hotwater tank, as originally the only way we had to control the temperature of the water in this tank from the boiler was by adjusting the hotwater feed going into the tank itself. So now that we had a valve on it, we needed a way of telling it when to close.
    • Now, Tado isn't the cheapest Smart Heating system on the market, but as has often been said, buy cheap, buy twice. After much research into the various systems, I liked the sound of Tado and came very highly recommended by those who had it. Also, their support seemed to be good (more on that later). I'm by no means rolling in money, so I've been purchasing the parts for this upgrade over the last number of months, and I took advantage of the Tado Black Friday sales, and other random deals they had on Amazon, which in total allowed me to pretty much purchase the entire system, for between 25 & 45% less than the RRP. So while I initially said it's not the cheapest system on the market, buying it this way really did help to challenge that theory.
    • My installer had never worked with Tado specifically before, but had installed smart systems which at the base level are all very similar in terms of wiring etc. I'm a tech person, so I was happy to cover the configuration side of things once the kit was installed, linked to the zone valves, firing the boiler etc. This is where I'd like to call out Tado Support for the first of a couple of times. When installing the extension kit (Note: this is required if you want to control your hot water with Tado and/or if you want to run a wireless Smart Thermostat) he had some questions around the wiring. In roughly 5 minutes, we went from dialling the number from Tado support, to getting an engineer on the phone who was instantly able to answer the questions my installer had and we were quickly back under way. Hugely impressive and very re-assuring for both of us.
    • Once the system was all installed, it was pretty much working in the basic sense right away. At this point, I had already had some email communication with Tado Support so I had all the info I needed for my installer. They suggest that you send them the details of your environment, and they will send you the instructions to install, which they did and then asked me to let them know once it was installed. This part is really important to note and wasn't obvious initially. Only they can setup the zones properly when it comes to linking in Smart TRV's etc, as they need to configure which rooms link to which circuit (IE: Ground floor or First floor) to ensure the correct valve is opened to send heat.) Again, within 20 minutes, this was all done and we were set.
    • I'd say all in all it took maybe a day / day and a half to get it all sorted, as obviously we had some other works to complete such as replacing some radiator valves along with doing some of the above to get the most out of a smart system.
    • Finished Setup: I now have a 3 zone system, with Smart Thermostats on each floor (ground floor is a wireless stat linked to the extension kit and the first floor is a hardwired stat back to the boiler. Tado only supports 1 wireless smart stat) and also control of my hot water tank. My hotwater tank stat is just a Honeywell unit and you set the temp manually on the side of it (Tado doesn't offer a smart stat for hot water tanks. So when it's wired up, you either have it on, or off). Once the water in the tank gets to that level, it sends a signal to Tado to close the valve. Similar story with the Smart Thermostats, once they get to their temps, they close the respective valves.

      Now I've also gone ahead and fitted Smart TRV's to all my rads, so I essentially have more than just 3 zones, I have all the various rooms setup as their own unique zones. This setup can get tricky and check out note below for a bit of detail on this. However it's well worth doing as these TRV's are very accurate and of course gives you great control. This doesn't have to be done right away I should add.


    Some points to note:
    • Since the install, we've had plenty of fine tuning to do. Having so may TRV's we did have to repair one or 2 more radiator valves as they weren't closing properly and this heating when they shouldn't, and also we've had to do some additional config on the smart side with them.
    • Tado states that you can essentially have 10 zones. However, what they don't tell you is that's actually 10 PER CIRCUIT. A circuit in my case here is upstairs or downstairs - so my house has 2 circuits basically, as will most 2 story homes depending on your plumbing. So you can actually have 20 zones in your home. Now where this is crucial is that this number of 10 is the amount of zones that can call for heat. As I touched on above, this is where Tado support is crucial as while anyone can setup zones (rooms) and assign devices to them, you can't configure them to call for heat, Tado support can only do that. They have to configure the device to call for heat from the correct zone. So the boiler fires and the correct valve opens etc.
      So if you have your bedroom for example, with a smart trv in there on your single radiator, if that's setup as a zone, configured by Tado to the 1st floor circuit, it will be able to fire the boiler, open the 1st floor valve, and then release hot water into your bedroom rad and heat you up. This is probably the biggest thing that I didn't know about, and I had been working hard to get my whole home into the magic number of 10, before I realised that it was 10 per circuit etc.
    • Tado support is fantastic. I've dealt with a number of chat agents now and only had 1 bad experience of someone who really didn't know the system that well and tried to send me the wrong way. Outside of that, they've been superb and it makes you realise that Tado is worth the money.
    • The App! The app is great, but there has been lots of chat about the subscription and Tado has taken a hard time on that one. I don't have the sub, and to be honest, I don't see myself going for it. The only things it offers you is automation. Now, if you, like me, have Home Assistant in your home, that can do it instead. Additionally, I've found the Open Window detection to be very irratic, to the point that I've now turned it off. Obviously the sub also gives you home/away automation, and if you don't have HA or similar, then that may be handy. But that said, if you setup your smart schedules correctly, your boiler won't fire that often or you can just change it manually anyway. The long and short for me is I don't see it as a deal breaker for choosing Tado or not, as has seemed to be the case for others.
    • For those of you that use Home Assistant, the integration has really improved in the recent release, so I'd highly recommend getting that setup. Also the Smart TRV's give temps to .1 of a degree, where the app will only give you whole numbers.


    I'm a few weeks in now at this stage and I'm loving it. As I said above, initially it requires fine tuning, as I'm sure they probably all do, but we're well on our way with that now and adjusting it less and less on a daily basis which is the idea. Reading the graphs in the morning for the rare cold nights we've had recently, it's great to see the temp dropping and then Tado firing the boiler and heating the relevant rooms to the correct temps.



    Big shout out to everyone on here who has helped with advice and guidance, this forum is really valuable and has so much information that just isn't really out there. In particular to Deezell who has been amazing and I really can't thank enough. This person has so much knowledge and detail and was a huge help to sorting a lot of my queries. I hope the above captures and summarises a lot of what was answered for me and hopefully helps others. In particular I found there was very little info around for people with boilers like mine, so hopefully this helps. Also, I had a very VERY basic setup to start with, so if you've got that too, finishing up with a strong setup is very much achieveable with out tearing the place apart.



    Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to try and give as much detail as possible in case anyone else is looking for a summer project!


    Best,


    Paul.

    PS: The following post on the home automation bargains thread is very similar to mine and also contains some great points, some similar to the above. But useful to read if you're also starting out. Link


  • #1943
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭championc


    Excellent post and summarization Paul

    Just one other quick note which was very impressive was the way the system turns the boiler off completely when previously, if I had it on even a 1 hour boost, it would have stayed circulating for the hour when not actually firing.

    Another brilliant thing is that TRV's learn the amount of heat a rad can put into a room. So they close before the room reaches the required temperature, rather than waiting until the TRV actually senses the required temperature, which leads to the temperature being much higher 10 or 15 mins later, thus saving oil or gas

    While the kit for my system is V3+, I bought a V3 Internet Bridge, which gives me the Geo and Open Window detection free. The app sees my system as a V3

    Also, if the firmware version of your Extension Kit is older than 64.6, Tado support can push the latest version to your unit.

    Does anyone know of a link anywhere which shows Firmware revision details ? Maybe updates are not necessary


  • #1944
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭deezell


    Good thread here on firmware updates, with yourself Champ as the last contributor.
    https://community.tado.com/en-gb/discussion/809/firmware-revisions


  • #1945
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭championc


    deezell wrote: »
    Good thread here on firmware updates, with yourself Champ as the last contributor.
    https://community.tado.com/en-gb/discussion/809/firmware-revisions

    Yep, but it doesn't give any details of what a firmware update actually does, or fixes.


  • #1946
    xckjoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,397 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    44% off with Tado at the moment
    https://www.tado.com/ie/store
    Code: Tado44




    Back to debating the Starter + Extension Kit :D. €160 for both from the webshop


  • #1947
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭deezell


    xckjoo wrote: »
    44% off with Tado at the moment
    https://www.tado.com/ie/store
    Code: Tado44




    Back to debating the Starter + Extension Kit :D. €160 for both from the webshop

    This also from the bargain alert thread. Starter kit and two TRVs for £135. This kit listed at €350 on the Tado site, presuming €196 with 44% off.
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/tado%C2%B0-Smart-Thermostat-Add-Thermostats/dp/B07YCY3T1S


  • #1948
    limnam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭limnam


    This always comes at a bad time.


    Could do with completing the rest of the rads.


    Hopefully it'll be back in November


  • #1949
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    xckjoo wrote: »
    44% off with Tado at the moment
    https://www.tado.com/ie/store
    Code: Tado44




    Back to debating the Starter + Extension Kit :D. €160 for both from the webshop


    Tado not useless now without a subscription?>


  • #1950
    limnam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭limnam


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Tado not useless now without a subscription?>


    If you had it before they brought it in it's free



    if not I think it's only 20 odd a year.


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  • #1951
    paulgrogan.eu
    Registered Users Posts: 289 ✭✭paulgrogan.eu


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Tado not useless now without a subscription?>


    Far from it. As per my post above, I've just finished my installation and don't have a sub, nor am I likely to get one. All it does is automate the away/home and window opening processes, but if you have any other smart home tools such as Home Assistant, you can set this up via that. Outside of that, everything else works sub free.


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