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Universal basic income trial in Finland

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    #182
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    I think some posters here subscribe to the PBP/Sinn Fein school of economics.


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    #183
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    Water John wrote: »
    Not very long ago, we had too many houses being built. The country needs about 30,000 per year. We hit 90,000 at one stage. Will employ some, but not a lot.
    The Eirgrid system is largely upgraded. Very aware of the carbon issue. Enough solar farms to max out the need, could be installed in less than 2 years. 20Mw would take about 100 people to build, in a year.

    These are just details you mention and iv'e dealt with. This doesn't deal with the broader thesis. Except you can use the option I mentioned above and broaden the whole definition of what constitutes work that should be paid for.

    We might meet a bit, in the middle. I simply don't believe in the need to police it. I trust that most people will use it to enhance their lives and make a better contribution to society. You find it difficult to relenquish that control. I accept a few make lie on their back or go to the bookies with it. But, the same goes for any present day state payments.
    Okey, well ya we both agree with broadening what counts as useful work, so that is a good point for meeting in the middle - with a jobs program, we would have the twin benefit of being able to persistently meet our infrastructural and other needs, even in times of economic crisis - and we would also be able to expand the definition of useful work, and fund a much wider number of beneficial activities - to the point, that this expanded definition of useful work, can provide an endless amount of 'work', even if all of our infrastructural/material needs are met.

    If we police the useful work that is done using a jobs program aimed at permanent Full Employment - would you not view that as getting 90% of the way there, to achieving the benefits the UBI desires?

    They key point is, there are big questions over the sustainability of the UBI, and how it could be used as a trojan horse - these issues are solved with the jobs program - doesn't the jobs program seem more practical and politically achievable, given that?


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    #184
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,117 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Harika thanks, saw about 2 weeks ago some co was getting their workers to do 4 days a week and be paid for the 5 over a set period of time. they are going to evaluate the productivity results.

    I certainly am a long way from PBP/SF economics. Hardly think Willie O'Dea is with them either.

    Kyuss, the whole point is, not to have another quango policing it. There's a whole lot of work there, drawing up the list, and seeing what gets done. 1000s of jobs in that quango, achieving nothing. We don't police any payments ATM, except making some pretence effort at insisting those on UB are available and looking for work. Or, we'll send you on, another training course.


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    #185
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    It's a public authority finding and creating work for people, verifying that work, and paying people for that work. A public authority providing employment to everyone who would otherwise be unemployed, providing permanent Full Employment even in times of economic crisis - that sounds like a pretty damn impressive achievement, far from nothing... - imagine if we had that the last 10 years? Everyone's life would be better today.

    Apparently AI and automation are going to eliminate jobs in the private sector - but suddenly a fairly simple public authority for managing a jobs program, is going to take 1000's of people and have little benefit from AI/automation...zero consistency in the talking points used there, complete double standards in how they are applied.


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    #186
    Owryan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Owryan


    The point is people will have to work. Right now you can survive, barely, on welfare if you have a medical card.

    Under one of the options for introducing a ubi the medical card is gone, you will have to pay something if you need to see a doctor or go to hospital. So the idea is that this will encourage people to work.


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    #187
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Small government ftw


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    #188
    Harika
    Registered Users Posts: 4,410 ✭✭✭Harika


    Owryan wrote: »
    The point is people will have to work. Right now you can survive, barely, on welfare if you have a medical card.

    Under one of the options for introducing a ubi the medical card is gone, you will have to pay something if you need to see a doctor or go to hospital. So the idea is that this will encourage people to work.

    Indeed ask yourself what you would do when you get paid 1000 euros a month guaranteed. Would you stop working? If yes why? And could you pay all expenses with that?


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    #189
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    KyussB wrote: »
    I really hate this 'dig a hole and another to fill it in' stuff - I mean you do understand what you are saying there? You are saying that there is no useful work to be done.

    Why the fuck would people be paid to do useless stuff like that? Just look at the state of Ireland's infrastructure and our urgent need for housing - there is enormous amounts of useful work to be done - and a serious lack of effort at engaging in that work, despite still not being at Full Employment yet...

    Money being earned, with useful and fulfilling work, is still the best way to manage things economically - and the most sustainable - that's not going to change anytime soon, and the UBI doesn't provide an economically sustainable alternative.
    Useless jobs, where do I start.
    utility switching companies, management in outsourcing companies who duplicate the work of the managers in the company they have staff in, internal sales staff, at least half of all production workers who make products with expedited expiry dates (washing machines that break and are beyond repair after only five years).

    I could go on,


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    #190
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Useless jobs, where do I start.
    utility switching companies, management in outsourcing companies who duplicate the work of the managers in the company they have staff in, internal sales staff, at least half of all production workers who make products with expedited expiry dates (washing machines that break and are beyond repair after only five years).

    I could go on,
    You suggested there is no useful work to be done. Listing some useless jobs doesn't show this.

    There is endless useful work to be done, and not all of it fits within a profit-oriented job market.


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    #191
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    KyussB wrote: »
    You're aware of the long list of infrastructure and transport projects in need of doing in Dublin and around Ireland, right?

    The massive and urgent need for houses to be built - going back years?

    The need for an overhaul of our entire power infrastructure and energy efficiency throughout the whole country, in order to reduce our carbon footprint? (and eventually achieve a neutral, and preferably negative, footprint)

    I mean for fuck sake, it's not hard to see all the work that needs doing Right. Now. - you see how obstructionist it looks, when you play blind to all that?
    You are talking about essential works that need doing, but unless someone is going to make a lot of money financing these projects, they simply win not get done.
    It is in the interests of property owners in Dublin that they retain their scarcity value, they will not be happy if sufficient housing was built as this would slaughter their cash cows.

    They won't invest in better transportation as it will not benefit them directly.


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    #192
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    Not all work requires profit. The only entity capable of sustainably funding work that does not require profit though, is the government - yet not all of this kind of work can fit as part of public services etc. - that's where a jobs program, aimed at permanent Full Employment comes in - it's capable of funding useful/productive work (and expanding societies idea of what counts as useful work), which is not required to be profit based, and which does not have to fit in as part of the standard public sector.

    All of that necessary work can be funded and undertaken through such a program - without requiring motivation from the private sector and from profits.


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    #193
    Harika
    Registered Users Posts: 4,410 ✭✭✭Harika


    KyussB wrote: »
    You suggested there is no useful work to be done. Listing some useless jobs doesn't show this.

    There is endless useful work to be done, and not all of it fits within a profit-oriented job market.

    Indeed but this useful work is unpaid while the useless work is paid. Crazy world, as doing this useful work won't pay the bills.


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    #194
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    Harika wrote: »
    Indeed but this useful work is unpaid while the useless work is paid. Crazy world, as doing this useful work won't pay the bills.
    Exactly - that's where the jobs program aimed at permanent Full Employment comes in - it fills the gap here, and allows this useful work to be done and to pay the bills - and to do so sustainably, without requiring it to be profit generating.


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    #195
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Can we have some examples of useless jobs?


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    #196
    Harika
    Registered Users Posts: 4,410 ✭✭✭Harika


    KyussB wrote: »
    Exactly - that's where the jobs program aimed at permanent Full Employment comes in - it fills the gap here, and allows this useful work to be done and to pay the bills - and to do so sustainably, without requiring it to be profit generating.

    So the state decides what is deemed useful. Based on what? How is the process going to work if one person is employed for a month to polish up an estate? If anything this just creates more bureaucracy and slows the process down and makes it useless.


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    #197
    Harika
    Registered Users Posts: 4,410 ✭✭✭Harika


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Can we have some examples of useless jobs?


    financial services or telemarketing, or the unprecedented expansion of sectors like corporate law, academic and health administration, human resources, and public relations


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    #198
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Can we have some examples of useless jobs?
    I mentioned a couple earlier, for example Utility switching companies, a team of telesales people who get you to sign up with another gas or electricity supply company selling you exactly the same product, but with a different name on the letterhead with a teaser rate that rises before the contract is up.


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    #199
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Harika wrote: »
    financial services or telemarketing, or the unprecedented expansion of sectors like corporate law, academic and health administration, human resources, and public relations
    Eh....bloated and populated by pricks maybe but surely these jobs perform necessary functions?


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    #200
    Harika
    Registered Users Posts: 4,410 ✭✭✭Harika


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Eh....bloated and populated by pricks maybe but surely these jobs perform necessary functions?

    Show me how they are useful.


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    #201
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    1) Inflation isn’t as simple as that.
    2) the idea is that you can leave the job with fewer repercussions.

    Not that I’m certain about UBI

    Giving everyone in the country 30k is the absolute quickest way to make 30k "worthless".


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    #202
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Useful work, I have to follow processes in my job that can take at least 5 hours to prepare to carry out a five minute task = 5 hours useless & 5 minutes useful.
    For some work, the processes are necessary to avoid incidents happening, but that isn't true for all the tasks.


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    #203
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    It only causes inflation if the supply fails to expand to match demand, in this scenario people will not be going on spending sprees, they'll just be buying better quality products.
    Fewer "yellow packs" and more Aldi finest for example.

    Supply of what fails to match demand?


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    #204
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Harika wrote: »
    Show me how they are useful.
    Academic administration for instance. How would a university function without administrative staff?


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    #205
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Harika wrote: »
    financial services or telemarketing, or the unprecedented expansion of sectors like corporate law, academic and health administration, human resources, and public relations

    Ah here...


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    #206
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Giving everyone in the country 30k is the absolute quickest way to make 30k "worthless".
    Not at all, the recipients will still need that money to buy food, pay rent, phone bills etc


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    #207
    Owryan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Owryan


    Harika wrote: »
    Indeed ask yourself what you would do when you get paid 1000 euros a month guaranteed. Would you stop working? If yes why? And could you pay all expenses with that?

    What 1000 a month? The last report I saw was a payment of 160 a week plus extra per child.


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    #208
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Supply of what fails to match demand?
    You tell me, you're saying that inflation will occur if people have more money.


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    #209
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Not at all, the recipients will still need that money to buy food, pay rent, phone bills etc

    But of course! Those supermarkets, landlords and phone companies wouldn't dream of raising their prices in the knowledge that everyone in the country has an extra 30k. Must be their non profit, socialist dogma.


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    #210
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Owryan wrote: »
    What 1000 a month? The last report I saw was a payment of 160 a week plus extra per child.
    Correct, it isn't "helicopter money" just a baseline income.


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    #211
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Ush1 wrote: »
    But of course! Those supermarkets, landlords and phone companies wouldn't dream of raising their prices in the knowledge that everyone in the country has an extra 30k. Must be their non profit, socialist dogma.
    Well, for one, 30k it isn't, for two, market forces will kick in and any company that tries that will lose a lot of custom.


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