Torture, in exceptional circumstances

Alejandro68 · 24-09-2020 9:21pm

Torturing someone for answers as the OP suggests, IMO would make them no better than the accused. What if they could endure a lot of pain and make you resort to more sadistic ways to make them talk? Then you would go beyond what they are. Situations such as that isn't so cut and dry.

Royal Irish · 24-09-2020 11:46pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What's the difference between those types of torture? what makes one type of torture a good idea and the other type of torture a bad idea?

The difference is you can use enhanced interrogation without physically injuring the child serial killer. He might be emotionally scared but who cares about that? You?

Montage of Feck · 25-09-2020 12:08am

Why not burn a few witches while we're at it.

An Ri rua · 25-09-2020 1:00am

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

If an animal killed a person, and we locked them in a cage for the rest of their natural life, it would be considered cruelty. It's more humane to just euthanize them!

Yet for some strange reason, we think locking murderers etc up for life is the more humane action. Why? What's the difference?

Locking anyone up for years, human or animal, is an act of mental torture... we should either rehabilitate and release, or euthanize those who are too dangerous to release.

Or lock them in the same cage as the animal, to save money (we do it in the Joy?), then let the animal out on good behaviour after it elevates itself to human expression.

An Ri rua · 25-09-2020 1:04am

Archeron wrote: »

Would a torturers hood be considered a facemask or would they need to wear another mask underneath? Covid really has changed the workplace.

I think it's a query for Joe Duffy
#washYourHaaaandsz

bobbyy gee · 25-09-2020 1:08am

were should we stop priest child molesters
murderers

Mad_maxx · 25-09-2020 9:36am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

You just admitted to seeking revenge rather than getting results.

if someone did something like that to a close family member or child , id want revenge

sue me

elefant · 25-09-2020 10:11am

Leaving aside the questionable value of anything gleaned through torturing a person for information, legislating for torture would also have major consequences for many people and institutions beyond the individuals actually be subjected to the act.

Who trains our torturers?
What effects does torturing someone have on the torturer, especially in the very possible (almost inevitable?) scenario they torture somebody innocent?
How about the torturer's family who have to live in a house with someone trained to dehumanise people?
What about our medical institutes starting to be used to heal people for the sole purpose of readying them for more torture?
The consequences of having these institutes starting to do research into the best ways to inflict unbearable pain on people?

Just a few things to consider when thinking about what torture in exceptional circumstance would mean for our society.

fash · 25-09-2020 10:42am

Pauliedragon wrote: »

Nothing to do with torture but in Australia they brought in laws a while back which meant if you were convicted of murder with no body you never get parole unless you reveal where the body is.

Rather tough on the few (but nevertheless almost certain to exist) wrongly decided cases...

El_Duderino 09 · 25-09-2020 10:49am

Royal Irish wrote: »

The difference is you can use enhanced interrogation without physically injuring the child serial killer. He might be emotionally scared but who cares about that? You?

I suppose the real question is why you do care about physically injuring the child serial killer but don't care about psychologically injuring them?

What the difference between physical and psychological injury that makes one a good thing to do and the other a bad thing to do?

El_Duderino 09 · 25-09-2020 11:19am

elefant wrote: »

Leaving aside the questionable value of anything gleaned through torturing a person for information, legislating for torture would also have major consequences for many people and institutions beyond the individuals actually be subjected to the act.
Who trains our torturers?

What effects does torturing someone have on the torturer, especially in the very possible (almost inevitable?) scenario they torture somebody innocent?

How about the torturer's family who have to live in a house with someone trained to dehumanise people?

What about our medical institutes starting to be used to heal people for the sole purpose of readying them for more torture?

The consequences of having these institutes starting to do research into the best ways to inflict unbearable pain on people?

Just a few things to consider when thinking about what torture in exceptional circumstance would mean for our society.

Good questions. I think all this stuff is just Internet big-man talk. In reality, a person who would actually torture people is a massive risk and I wouldn't want them anywhere me or my children.

Anyone who says they would torture oeople is either a clueless fantasist or a probable psychopath. In either case it's useful that they've would admit to being someone who's best avoided.

25-09-2020 11:42am

He would probably lie as that's what tends to happen in torture.

If we were 100% certain he was the person responsible AND the child was still alive somewhere and in danger. Then I would but performing torture is not something that normal, decent people could do without carrying the guilt and memory forever. It would scar you no matter what the outcome

El_Duderino 09 · 25-09-2020 11:59am

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

He would probably lie as that's what tends to happen in torture.

If we were 100% certain he was the person responsible AND the child was still alive somewhere and in danger. Then I would but performing torture is not something that normal, decent people could do without carrying the guilt and memory forever. It would scar you no matter what the outcome

It would likely be no problem for a psychopath. But yeah, a normal person wouldn't be able to do it without being deeply effected.

Stovepipe · 25-09-2020 1:12pm

So it's was/is okay to get junior doctors to work 90 hr weeks and make critical decisions, when they are too tired to legally and safely drive home. How do hospitals get away with that?

25-09-2020 8:00pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

So it's was/is okay to get junior doctors to work 90 hr weeks and make critical decisions, when they are too tired to legally and safely drive home. How do hospitals get away with that?

this is relevent how?

ILoveYourVibes · 25-09-2020 8:04pm

If you have to torture someone ...it usually means you have the wrong person and they don't know what to tell you.

Also if you are living in a country that allows torture ...your justice system hasn't a clue and prob couldn't find a body if it was ten feet away from them.

ILoveYourVibes · 25-09-2020 8:10pm

So it's was/is okay to get junior doctors to work 90 hr weeks and make critical decisions, when they are too tired to legally and safely drive home. How do hospitals get away with that?

Junior Doctors work on average 48 hrs a week in the UK. It's something similar here.

A small percentage work over 60 hrs some weeks. I think its like 33%. But officially 67% work under 60 hrs per week and more like 48 50.

Still too long though.

And not acceptable.

Stovepipe · 25-09-2020 8:26pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

this is relevent how?

sleep deprivation. Try it some time. You'd give up your firstborn for some sleep.

ILoveYourVibes · 25-09-2020 8:30pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

sleep deprivation. Try it some time. You'd give up your firstborn for some sleep.

No one is saying its a good thing stove.

Capt'n Midnight · 25-09-2020 9:29pm

If someone planted an atomic bomb and refused to give the disarm code then torture* might be used.

However, the torturer and whoever approved it would have to to be prosecuted in a court of law afterwards and defend their actions. It's the only way to be sure it's only used in exceptional circumstance.

*People will tell you anything under torture to make it stop. Hence El Dorado was always lying just beyond the next tribes land when the Conquistadores asked. The Soviets used to just get people drunk and chatty. Magic truth serum wasn't much better.

25-09-2020 11:06pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

sleep deprivation. Try it some time. You'd give up your firstborn for some sleep.

Have, many people with long hours. Still not torture

Capt'n Midnight · 25-09-2020 11:33pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Have, many people with long hours. Still not torture

Some German soldiers reckoned the worst part of the Eastern Front was the lack of sleep.

The Eastern Front was not a nice assignment.

Richard Hillman · 26-09-2020 12:09am

Depends on the circumstances.

If there is a terror attack imminent or a police race against time, then Jack Bauer type methods would be applicable.

If you have a detainee with a lot of information then the best method would be to stick them in a cold damp cell with no clothes and toilet for a week or 2. They'll crack with the promise of a warmer cell,clothes and sanitation.

If you wanted to punish somebody then the above would probably be good method. But also to break their teeth how they will have a gnawing pain along with the damp and cold.

26-09-2020 12:19am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Some German soldiers reckoned the worst part of the Eastern Front was the lack of sleep.

The Eastern Front was not a nice assignment.

Yes, if they had gotten their 8 hours a night then the killing, raping and torturing of women and children would have been marvelous fun altogether.

Still no one has said sleep deprivation is nice and again, plenty of people have had to work long hours at some point. It's not relevant to the subject at hand.

26-09-2020 1:05am

Jesus lads, it was a jokey thread.

FGR · 26-09-2020 3:47am

If it's a case of a live bomb or people who are known to be alive in a particular location but will die within a short timeframe unless we're told where they are - if we're 100% satisfied that we have the suspect in custody then I can't see how people would be willing to let them sit there quite happily availing of their rights and entitlements while their victims and families will potentially lose everything.

What if some of those people are your loved ones or are known innocents such as children? There has to be a point where enhanced techniques must be tried by a trained individual for the greater good.

Sleep deprivation, denial of comfort by being confined to standing room, loud noise or bright lights can be just as painful as waterboarding and physical torture.

Where is the line to be drawn? Tbh I'd find it difficult to not let the option be considered. And even then its authorisation from the highest authorities.

AH answer: get Christian Bale to don his dark knight costume one more time. If he got the (albeit backwards) answers from Joker then it has to be worth something!

bobbyy gee · 26-09-2020 4:55am

Murder and torture

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/uk-parliament-pushes-forward-bill-limit-torture-prosecutions

meathstevie · 26-09-2020 5:17am

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

Never. Not torture, no capital punishment whatever the crime.

So you honestly believe that the likes of Rudolf Höss were unjustly convicted and executed ?

joeguevara · 26-09-2020 5:44am

Why wait until the person is in prison before the concept of torture is considered. It would be way more effective during the interrogation and before a trial. But it would be a risk that any admission of guilt was tainted or any evidence illicited would be inadmissible. Not a risk worth taking.

If waited until after conviction, then is the impact on the people who have to do it and the impact it will have on the person who has to sign off ( family member) worth it.

El_Duderino 09 · 26-09-2020 9:54am

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Depends on the circumstances.

If there is a terror attack imminent or a police race against time, then Jack Bauer type methods would be applicable.

If you have a detainee with a lot of information then the best method would be to stick them in a cold damp cell with no clothes and toilet for a week or 2. They'll crack with the promise of a warmer cell,clothes and sanitation.

If you wanted to punish somebody then the above would probably be good method. But also to break their teeth how they will have a gnawing pain along with the damp and cold.

Yeah shur didn't they try that with the IRA boys inn he north. Cold, damp, dark cell, boarded up from the outside, regular beatings, smells of delicious food wafting into the cell, promise of better cells and and shur didn't they all give up the information in a week or 2? That was just trying to get them to wear prison clothes.

This stuff doesn't work for anything except lads on the Internet expressing torture fantasies.

Capt'n Midnight · 26-09-2020 11:51am

meathstevie wrote: »

So you honestly believe that the likes of Rudolf Höss were unjustly convicted and executed ?

He was given a fair trial in 1945 and then not hanged.

Technically he was in solitary for 21 years, except for the night the mission impossible crew kidnapped him to find out where the maguffin was, as he was the only person in the prison. And then they knocked it down.

spurious · 26-09-2020 12:06pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

He was given a fair trial in 1945 and then not hanged.

Technically he was in solitary for 21 years, except for the night the mission impossible crew kidnapped him to find out where the maguffin was, as he was the only person in the prison. And then they knocked it down.

Rudolf Hess was the guy in prison. Rudolf Hoess (can't do the umlaut, sorry) was hanged in 1947.

smck321 · 26-09-2020 2:26pm

Royal Irish wrote: »

I'd be in favor of enhanced interrogation being used like sleep deprivation, water boarding, etc. But no pulling finger nails or anything barbaric like that.

You've never done shift work, or customer service then. I'd rather pull my fingernails out myself.

Stovepipe · 26-09-2020 10:12pm

That was just trying to get them to wear prison clothes.

Yes, that was clever. Spend your life outside wearing denim, head to toe, then when the Man issues you denim to wear inside, just like every other prisoner in the UK prison system, you refuse food and smear **** on the walls. That went well.

El_Duderino 09 · 26-09-2020 10:39pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

That was just trying to get them to wear prison clothes.

Yes, that was clever. Spend your life outside wearing denim, head to toe, then when the Man issues you denim to wear inside, just like every other prisoner in the UK prison system, you refuse food and smear **** on the walls. That went well.

Well, it shows how the torture failed to get them to do what the tortures wanted. It failed to get them to do something they might have done anyway if they weren't being tortured to do it.

I'm not sure if you know the story and are just simplifying it for the sake of your argument, but it doesn't matter as your version demonstrates the failure of torture.

Stovepipe · 28-09-2020 9:58am

I agree. All miltaries and police know that torture tends to end in failure because the recipient knows and the inflictor knows that the victim will say anything to make it stop. Initially, it might make a suspect blab but it almost always ends up with the victim making up lies to get the torture to stop. That's why more subtle tricks or threats to harm third parties tends to be more effective. The Germans used a technique called "sippenhaft" to make suspects blab,by simply threatening family members, if one person spied or deserted or committed sabotage. You act against the State, all of your family will be jailed or shot. The Gestapo relied on threats and fear and the ease with which they could use the population to control itself, to police the civilian population and even the military population, way out of proportion to the actual size of the Gestapo.

PTH2009 · 28-09-2020 8:15pm

speaking of people in jail

Will mark chapman ever get released ??

Hes been up for parole a few times but always refused. Yoko Ono seems to think he will go after Johns Son

Torture, in exceptional circumstances

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