Boards.ie uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Click here to find out more x
View Poll Results: When did you learn the extent of Irish involvement with anti-native forces in America
In school 4 5.41%
College / Adulthood 21 28.38%
This is news to me so 49 66.22%
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll

Post Reply  
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
12-08-2020, 16:41   #1
TenLeftFingers
Registered User
 
TenLeftFingers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 636
"More Irish people killed more Indians than anyone else"

Floyd Westerman mentions this in his talk on the common struggle of Native Americans and the Irish. I didn't do leaving cert history and only recently learned of Irish involvement with genocide of natives in the USA. So I'm curious, when did you learn the extent of our history with the indigenous people of America?




Mod Note:
See warning on post 32 about straying from OP.

Last edited by Manach; 25-08-2020 at 12:20.
TenLeftFingers is offline  
Advertisement
12-08-2020, 16:45   #2
neris
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 18,651
The way its normally spun when in comes to native populations and the Irish is the Irish were always friendly towards the natives and it was British or Americans who were going around killing natives and beating slaves from Africa.
neris is offline  
Thanks from:
12-08-2020, 16:50   #3
An Ri rua
Registered User
 
An Ri rua's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,811
You'll find the same with any foreign forces the Irish joined.
Even through our domestic (domesticated by the Brits) British colonial involvement, we no doubt oversaw serious abuse and slaughter of Africans, Asians and Arabs on their own soil. Just research the amount of Irish in the officer class of the British Forces and it becomes very obvious.
We may never have colonised, as a sovereign state, but as one of the 'home nations' as it were, we certainly did.
An Ri rua is offline  
12-08-2020, 16:58   #4
Gruffalux
Registered User
 
Gruffalux's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 1,619
General Philip Sheridan. Parents went from Co. Cavan to Ohio. He was renowned for his total war tactics against native Americans. Starved them in winter, slaughtered men, women and children with no remorse, drove them onto the reservations. A stain on his ancestors and ancestral roots.

https://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/peo...z/sheridan.htm
Gruffalux is offline  
12-08-2020, 17:11   #5
timmyntc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 540
Why should it be "our" history?

If an Irish person emigrates and does some heinous crimes somewhere else in the world - why should we, the people who stayed in Ireland have any kind of responsibility or even association with same? Most of these people don't even have any modern day descendents who are Irish.
timmyntc is offline  
Advertisement
12-08-2020, 17:22   #6
TenLeftFingers
Registered User
 
TenLeftFingers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruffalox View Post
General Philip Sheridan. Parents went from Co. Cavan to Ohio. He was renowned for his total war tactics against native Americans. Starved them in winter, slaughtered men, women and children with no remorse, drove them onto the reservations. A stain on his ancestors and ancestral roots.

https://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/peo...z/sheridan.htm
I read of a Kerry man with a similar reputation (although probably not a similar rank / authority).
TenLeftFingers is offline  
Thanks from:
13-08-2020, 20:59   #7
whisky_galore
Registered User
 
whisky_galore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 9,732
Quote:
Originally Posted by neris View Post
The way its normally spun when in comes to native populations and the Irish is the Irish were always friendly towards the natives and it was British or Americans who were going around killing natives and beating slaves from Africa.
Incidents like the the Cincinatti Riots and New York Draft Riots put paid to the "We were a sound bunch of lads" narrative and the falsehood Irish were universally liked and tolerated.
Of course Irish slaughtered native Americans and competed and fought over resources and jobs with African Americans. There were ugly incidents between Irish and Chinese in railroad construction gangs.
whisky_galore is offline  
13-08-2020, 23:20   #8
TenLeftFingers
Registered User
 
TenLeftFingers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 636
Is any of this on the history syllabus in the leaving cert? We criticize yhe British for not K NJ owing the atrocities they commited which seems ironic, even if the scale was infinitely greater.
TenLeftFingers is offline  
13-08-2020, 23:29   #9
8mv
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 300
I remember reading 'Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee' some years ago and being shocked at the number of Irish names who enthusiastically took part in the genocide of the indigenous people of North America. It had not occured to me before that Irish people and other Northern Europeans had contributred to that shameful episode of history.
8mv is offline  
Advertisement
14-08-2020, 00:02   #10
riffmongous
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,545
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenLeftFingers View Post
Is any of this on the history syllabus in the leaving cert? We criticize yhe British for not K NJ owing the atrocities they commited which seems ironic, even if the scale was infinitely greater.
The difference usually being though that the atrocities were committed in the name of the country, rather than the people. But yes, it should definitely be included in any discussion on the diaspora
riffmongous is offline  
Thanks from:
14-08-2020, 00:15   #11
TenLeftFingers
Registered User
 
TenLeftFingers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by riffmongous View Post
The difference usually being though that the atrocities were committed in the name of the country, rather than the people. But yes, it should definitely be included in any discussion on the diaspora
But at the end of the day, by the people. But I take your point at the same time.
TenLeftFingers is offline  
14-08-2020, 02:37   #12
Peregrinus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 19,805
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenLeftFingers View Post
Is any of this on the history syllabus in the leaving cert? We criticize yhe British for not K NJ owing the atrocities they commited which seems ironic, even if the scale was infinitely greater.
Quote:
Originally Posted by riffmongous View Post
The difference usually being though that the atrocities were committed in the name of the country, rather than the people. But yes, it should definitely be included in any discussion on the diaspora
The story of the Irish diaspora is not really addressed in the history syllabus (at second level, anyway), exept in so far as it has implications for the history of Ireland (e.g. the role of Irish-America in the Fenian movement).
Peregrinus is offline  
22-08-2020, 12:28   #13
Yellow_Fern
Registered User
 
Yellow_Fern's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,084
I don't think anyone has systematically studied this question but what bugs me about this kind of anaysis is that it supposed that the Native Americans lost their lands and way of life due to genocide. In some areas there was true ethnic cleaning but even if there wasn't, even there was no killings, the end result would be the same. The 90% die off from disease and the huge numbers of European immigrants doomed them. The real cause was not ethnic cleaning, it was dispect of Native Americans natural rights to their land.

Can you edit the poll? Some people learnt ofIrish involvment as kids or teenagers through their own reading
Yellow_Fern is offline  
(2) thanks from:
22-08-2020, 15:55   #14
TenLeftFingers
Registered User
 
TenLeftFingers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 636
Unfortunately, it seems that I can't even update my first post to say that "In school" can cover school-going years in general in the poll.

I agree with you on this; genocide wasn't the only thing they had to contend with.
TenLeftFingers is offline  
24-08-2020, 07:19   #15
Peregrinus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 19,805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow_Fern View Post
. . . The real cause was not ethnic cleaning, it was dispect of Native Americans natural rights to their land.
How is dispossesing people of their land, so forcing them to move off it and allow it to be settled by a different people, not ethnic cleansing? Genuine question.

Last edited by Peregrinus; 24-08-2020 at 07:27.
Peregrinus is offline  
(2) thanks from:
Post Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Remove Text Formatting
Bold
Italic
Underline

Insert Image
Wrap [QUOTE] tags around selected text
 
Decrease Size
Increase Size
Please sign up or log in to join the discussion

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Share Tweet