Horses that never filled their potential

themandan6611 · 29-04-2020 8:03pm

I thought Nick Dundee never fulfilled his potential, looked a beast at Cheltenham until that crashing fall finished him, suppose jumping is the name of the game and unfortunately were he got found out

I says · 29-04-2020 9:45pm

Carvills hill if not already mentioned.
Back problems never allowed him to show his true self. The welsh national off top weight was some performance. Pity twas bit a scratch on the surface of his potential.

Pinesky · 29-04-2020 11:25pm

UrbanFret wrote: »

Dick hern trained a horse called bravefoot a few decades back. He was thought to be a superstar, then flopped. Such was they shock that there was investigations and arrests for doping. I think the truth was he just wasn't the horse they thought he was.

Was definitely doped by The Needle Man . The poor horse could hardly walk after the incident .

tryfix · 30-04-2020 7:52pm

I says wrote: »

Carvills hill if not already mentioned.
Back problems never allowed him to show his true self. The welsh national off top weight was some performance. Pity twas bit a scratch on the surface of his potential.

Very true. As a Novice he fell in his first Gold Cup attempt when he was young and sprightly enough to win it if he had stayed up. His 2nd attempt was ruined by Pitman' Golden Freeze.

If only they had put him over Hurdles instead of Fences we could have seen what that monster engine he possessed was actully capable of.

Morgans · 30-04-2020 8:05pm

tryfix wrote: »

Very true. As a Novice he fell in his first Gold Cup attempt when he was young and sprightly enough to win it if he had stayed up. His 2nd attempt was ruined by Pitman' Golden Freeze.

If only they had put him over Hurdles instead of Fences we could have seen what that monster engine he possessed was actully capable of.

He was always too big to be just a hurdler. The shame was that the ground for the 89 Gold Cup is exactly what he wanted. Hard to think that they held him up though. The Welsh National win is amazing. Never, even on his best day, was he a natural enough chaser. The best engine on any horse I've seen.

tryfix · 30-04-2020 8:31pm

Morgans wrote: »

He was always too big to be just a hurdler. The shame was that the ground for the 89 Gold Cup is exactly what he wanted. Hard to think that they held him up though. The Welsh National win is amazing. Never, even on his best day, was he a natural enough chaser. The best engine on any horse I've seen.

Ideally he should have been running in Cup races on the Flat, even then the Summer Ground would have meant that his races would be few and far between. Maybe a staying flat career in France would have seen him at his best.

Morgans · 30-04-2020 8:42pm

tryfix wrote: »

Ideally he should have been running in Cup races on the Flat, even then the Summer Ground would have meant that his races would be few and far between. Maybe a staying flat career in France would have seen him at his best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKXgAPcOuU

Redundant Pal went on to win 2 Ladbroke hurdles and was 2nd as a novice at Aintree.

Plasandrunt · 01-05-2020 12:18am

tryfix wrote: »

Very true. As a Novice he fell in his first Gold Cup attempt when he was young and sprightly enough to win it if he had stayed up. His 2nd attempt was ruined by Pitman' Golden Freeze.

If only they had put him over Hurdles instead of Fences we could have seen what that monster engine he possessed was actully capable of.

1992 was a bit before my time but after hearing and watching the race I've never understood the furore about the tactics on Golden Freeze?

It's as if Carvill's Hill was to be allowed to bounce out in front and run them all into the ground and god forbid anyone challenging him. Plus Golden Freeze fell and left Carvill's Hill in the lead, he just didn't seem to capitalize.

tryfix · 01-05-2020 2:18am

Plasandrunt wrote: »

1992 was a bit before my time but after hearing and watching the race I've never understood the furore about the tactics on Golden Freeze?

It's as if Carvill's Hill was to be allowed to bounce out in front and run them all into the ground and god forbid anyone challenging him. Plus Golden Freeze fell and left Carvill's Hill in the lead, he just didn't seem to capitalize.

It can't be proven either way. I'll just make a few points that might explain why many didn't believe Mrs Pitman's explanation of events.

Golden Freeze didn't fall, he was pulled up soon after he could no longer keep up with Carvill's Hill. No one could object to a horse making the running in a race, the objections were to the manner in which Golden Freeze ran. He wasn't there to make the running, he was there to shadow Carvill's Hill.

Pitman's Toby Tobias @15/2 was running in the same colours as Golden Freeze @150/1.

Pitman's darling son Mark was riding Toby Tobias who had a major chance based on his 2nd place finish in the previous year's Gold Cup.

Golden Freeze was an established 2m 4f horse who was 2 stone behind the principals in the race. Knowing that he was a non stayer why was he sent off to shadow front runner Carvill's Hill?

The prevailing wisdom before the race was that Carvill's Hill could only be beaten if he made jumping mistakes.

Watch the race, the interference only takes place over the first few fences. At the first fence he's just keeping close to Carvill's Hill who makes a mistake, jumping the second he is a few lengths clear of Carvills, after jumping the second he realises that he's clear of Carvill's and the rider stops riding until Carvill's Hill goes by him at which stage his rider gets busy on him and sends him back up to join Carvill's Hill.

At that stage the commentator said "Carvill's Hill goes up on the outside of Golden Freeze who's clearly trying to bustle him"

From there on until after the 12th he keeps company with Carvill's Hill, by the 13th his stablemate Toby Tobias is shadowing both him and Carvill's. That was effectively the end of Golden Freeze's race. Job done, he had bustled the favourite as effectively as he could and his fancied stablemate was now on the scene.

While he had bustled Carvill's rather than trying to knock him, the goal would have been to get Carvill's wound up so that he would start making costly mistakes.

The most irritating part of it was that Mrs Pitman always made a huge song and dance about being in the game for the welfare of horses.

Morgans · 01-05-2020 8:00am

tryfix wrote: »

It can't be proven either way. I'll just make a few points that might explain why many didn't believe Mrs Pitman's explanation of events.

Golden Freeze didn't fall, he was pulled up soon after he could no longer keep up with Carvill's Hill. No one could object to a horse making the running in a race, the objections were to the manner in which Golden Freeze ran. He wasn't there to make the running, he was there to shadow Carvill's Hill.

Pitman's Toby Tobias @15/2 was running in the same colours as Golden Freeze @150/1.

Pitman's darling son Mark was riding Toby Tobias who had a major chance based on his 2nd place finish in the previous year's Gold Cup.

Golden Freeze was an established 2m 4f horse who was 2 stone behind the principals in the race. Knowing that he was a non stayer why was he sent off to shadow front runner Carvill's Hill?

The prevailing wisdom before the race was that Carvill's Hill could only be beaten if he made jumping mistakes.

Watch the race, the interference only takes place over the first few fences. At the first fence he's just keeping close to Carvill's Hill who makes a mistake, jumping the second he is a few lengths clear of Carvills, after jumping the second he realises that he's clear of Carvill's and the rider stops riding until Carvill's Hill goes by him at which stage his rider gets busy on him and sends him back up to join Carvill's Hill.

At that stage the commentator said "Carvill's Hill goes up on the outside of Golden Freeze who's clearly trying to bustle him"

From there on until after the 12th he keeps company with Carvill's Hill, by the 13th his stablemate Toby Tobias is shadowing both him and Carvill's. That was effectively the end of Golden Freeze's race. Job done, he had bustled the favourite as effectively as he could and his fancied stablemate was now on the scene.

While he had bustled Carvill's rather than trying to knock him, the goal would have been to get Carvill's wound up so that he would start making costly mistakes.

The most irritating part of it was that Mrs Pitman always made a huge song and dance about being in the game for the welfare of horses.

Yeah, all that, the damage was done to Carvills Hill at the first fence. Never recovered and never ran again. Golden Freeze, if wanting to front run, could have done so at a few occasions, however, slowed up to jump alongside Carvills Hill to put pressure on his poor jumping. People point to pacemakers as evidence of horses not running on their merits in the race, but they are not done so to encourage a horse to fall. Michael Bowlby was apologising to Peter Scudamore on the way round. Jenny Pitman's crocodile tears and 'I'd never hurt a living animal' shtick pissed me off then, and still does.

Golden Freeze was trained in Ireland by Ted Walsh before Pitman, ran in the same McMurrow colours as Carvills Hill, fell at the fence before Carvills Hill in the 89 Gold Cup and showed up well before falling himself in the National a few years later.

Was the biggest fan of the Carvills Hill but ultimately looking back now was never a good enough jumper to be considered a true great of the game. Never could jump properly, not for Dreaper over 2m, Pipe over 4m, held up, from the front etc. His novice win at punchestown (on youtube) was an amazing handicapping performance but even then jumped like a snooker table.

I says · 01-05-2020 8:39am

Plasandrunt wrote: »

1992 was a bit before my time but after hearing and watching the race I've never understood the furore about the tactics on Golden Freeze?

It's as if Carvill's Hill was to be allowed to bounce out in front and run them all into the ground and god forbid anyone challenging him. Plus Golden Freeze fell and left Carvill's Hill in the lead, he just didn't seem to capitalize.

You don’t realise the emotional involvement with this horse with the Irish public at the time even though he was trained in England by then.
All the good horse went to England back then and cheltenham winners were few and far between. Goalmoy spared Irish blushes in 87/88 and in 89 we had no winners. Before the feast which have now with owners/trainers all here we were scutter.
Back then whenever we thought we had a good one the country really supported them in a way that probably will never happen again.
Carvills hill is one in a line around that time we could dream of something to take the English on and beat.

Rabbit Redux · 01-05-2020 11:11am

It's worth remembering that Pitman was also a contributor to ITV's The Cook Report - a programme that attempted to do a stitch-up of Martin Pipe and his training methods.

BoldReason · 06-05-2020 10:54am

This just popped up on my feed and really after this the world was at his feet. Probably my favorite Guineas winner of this century so far. Loved the horse but apart from the QE2 win he didn't entirely fulfill his promise for me.

Gorgeous George

https://twitter.com/RacingTV/status/1257967379327442945?s=19

byronbay2 · 08-05-2020 2:26am

BoldReason wrote: »

This just popped up on my feed and really after this the world was at his feet. Probably my favorite Guinness winner of this century so far. Loved the horse but apart from the QE2 win he didn't entirely fulfill his promise for me.

Gorgeous George

https://twitter.com/RacingTV/status/1257967379327442945?s=19

A weaker jockey than Fallon could have had some trouble there! Obvious quirks on show, certainly didn't fancy being told what to do at the business end!

tryfix · 10-05-2020 7:48pm

Last Tuesday Sir Isaac Newton was killed after a fall in an Australian maiden hurdle race.

He made 3.6m Guineas as a yearling and was a beautiful specimen of a horse. It was always going to be hard to live up to that price tag. As a full brother to multiple G1 winner Japan, multiple G1 placed Secret Gesture and the up and coming G2 winner Mogul he had every chance of making up into a top class horse himself.

After a slow start he was getting his act together as a 4yo with an impressive listed win at Royal Ascot being followed by a Gp3 win at the Curragh, a fine 4th place finish in the King George and another fine 4th place finish in the Juddmonte International. To finish the year he finished a sub par 10th in a very strong Irish Champion Stakes. and ran okay in 7th behind Winx in the Caulfield Cup in Australia.

He stayed in Australia and never won another flat race there, before ending up being euthanised after his maiden hurdle fall.

tryfix · 17-05-2020 8:05pm

Michael Stoute's Telescope got as high as OR 123 after winning the G2 Hardwicke Stakes at Royal Ascot. He never won a G1 race despite starting 5/2f in the King George when beaten 3L in 2nd by Taghrooda. He then finished a 5/1 3rd ( btn 4 1/4L) to Australia in the Juddmonte. He then started at 7/4f and finished 4th to Main Sequence in the Breeder's Cup Turf. After that he was beaten in two G2 races at prices of 8/13f and 6/4f, sandwiched between those two defeats was a Listed win as 8/13f.

A good friend of the bookies, but he did run into serious opposition in his big year.

tryfix · 17-05-2020 10:43pm

Await The Dawn earned a 120 Or when he won a backend Leopardstown G3 by 9L as a 3yo. Next Spring he started off with an odds on 4 1/2L stroll in a Chester G3, followed by another easy odds on 3L win in the Hardwicke Stakes at Royal Ascot. After winning his last 3 races by an aggregate 16 1/2L people thought that he was a certainty for the G1 Juddmonte.

He started as 8/13f and was beaten 5 3/4L by the 6yo Twice Over. From there he went to the Breeders Cup Turf and was thrashed by St Nicholas Abbey. O'Brien brought him to him to Meydan in the following Spring where he bombed out beaten 64L in last place. That was the end of him with O'Brien. He missed the rest of the year and ran okay without setting the world on fire for trainer Mike De Kock in Meydan in the following year.

They rarely thrive after leaving O'Brien's yard.

Peintre Celebre · 23-05-2020 2:09pm

Couple of jumpers looked like absolute machines before being forgotten about .

Franchoek looked like he could have been top class as a juvenile hurdler.

Punchestowns had a massive reputation and would have been extremely expensive to follow.

Cooldine without a doubt up there. Won the RSA in a canter and never won again. Willie has plenty that could make the list

The Tetrarch · 25-05-2020 4:26pm

I am not a jumps follower, and have only vague recollections of the Gold Cup race in which Carvill's Hill finished 5th.
Reading Betting For a Living by Nick Mordin (1992) recently I read in Chapter Two "Who's the fastest horse"
Even more important, when a 'talking horse' like Carvill's Hill wins his races (as he did) in times well below those normally achieved by top class horses you must believe it. The speed rating I gave him at Chepstow in the 1991 Welsh Grand National was fifteen lengths behind the average Gold Cup winner's time, and his rating on his previous run (at a distance more relevant to the Gold Cup) was a pitiful 86, more than 25 lengths off normal Gold Cup winning time.
Do not try and tinker with such figures to bring your ratings in line with the general public's opinion of such horses.

Morgans · 28-05-2020 10:22pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54phhq08xPE

The Tetrarch · 29-05-2020 10:38am

I looked up Carvill's Hill form after seeing that visually impressive, but very slow 3m 6f Welsh Grand National win.
The time was more than twenty seconds slower than the winner the previous year, Cool Ground on different ground.

Carvill's Hill record in the Racing Post is a bit incomplete.
The summary shows 17 runs, 11 wins but the listing shows 23 runs.
7 of Carvill's Hill's wins were on heavy.

His Welsh National win was listed as good/soft. 17 ran, 6 finished, 1 fell, 10 pulled up.
With 10 pulling up in a field of 17 my guess is heavy ground.

The 1992 Gold Cup 3m 2f where Carvill's Hill (1/1 fav) flopped was run on good ground, and he was beaten by Cool Ground (25/1), a horse that had won the Welsh National on good ground.

Carvill's Hill long distance runs:
Carvill's Hill won the Welsh National 3m 6f.
He fell in the 1989 Cheltenham Gold Cup 3m 2f heavy "behind until fell 7th".
He was 5th in the 1992 Cheltenham Gold Cup 3m 2f btn 61l.
He fell in the 3m 1f Theyestes in 1991.
He won the 3m 1/2f Tattersalls Gold Cup in 1989.
All his other races were 3m or less.

A sensible look at his record indicates he did not go well beyond 3m.
He did not go well at a fast pace on good ground.
His 7 heavy ground wins were at distances 2m; 2m; 2m 2f; 2m 2f; 2m 4f; 3m; 3m).

RivetingRoger · 21-06-2020 5:10pm

Poor ol Mall Diní had a horrific accident at home
Condolences to all concerned
After his Pertemps I really thought he would be a beast over a fence
Shame

I says · 21-06-2020 8:06pm

RivetingRoger wrote: »

Poor ol Mall Diní had a horrific accident at home
Condolences to all concerned
After his Pertemps I really thought he would be a beast over a fence
Shame

Ah ****e, the what ifs, if he could only transfer the hurdles form to chasing.

kksaints · 21-06-2020 8:11pm

I says wrote: »

Ah ****e, the what ifs, if he could only transfer the hurdles form to chasing.

He won 2 races out of 8 over hurdles and had a nice weight when he won the Pertemps which he won by less than a length. While its disappointing to hear he had to be put down, he'd belong in the overrated category as far as I'd be concerned

Horses that never filled their potential

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