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Underrated Horses

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Comments

  • #52
    Coneygree
    Registered Users Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Coneygree


    For the day that's in it, Neptune Collonges. Rather unlucky to have been around the time of two of the finest chasing stayers ever, still won three Grade 1s, two Punchestowns and one Irish Hennessy, probably would have won that Lexus when fell while leading. Won a few decent grade 2s. Came 3rd and 4th in Gold Cups, a fine trier of a horse and obviously has his big day out in his last run. Only reason he's underrated in my opinion is because he was up against two of the most popular and talented horses ever. Well respected but underrated in my eye.


  • #53
    Morgans
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,429 ✭✭✭Morgans


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    Some other names that Sea Stars took and some other asses he kicked....

    You forget to mention 4 time Group 1 winner Mastercraftsman.
    Casual Conquest won the Tatersalls Curragh G1
    Conduit a double breeders cup turf winner, st leger winner and King George winner ( another 4 G1's)
    Dar Re mi won 3 group 1's
    Fame and glory won 4 group 1's
    Stacelita won 3 group 1's
    Getaway was a group 1 winner.
    Cima de Triomphe won a G1 in Italy
    Jukebox Jury won an Irish Ledger
    Twice Over won 4 Group 1's

    He beat all those for starters. Stuffed all of them.

    Frankel beat Zoffany, Excelebration, Dubawu Gold and Farhh. He also beat Canford Cliffs ( the only real quality horse IMO ).

    If Frankel was trained in Ireland he would be rated a stone lighter. That is a simple fact.

    Sea the Stars simply has a better record and over time people will realise it, even if they don't already.

    Cima de triumphe - sweet jesus. Good for everyone that you posted what they did as most racing fans wouldn't know given how poor they are. Irish at leger, jesus. And excelebration and farhh dismissed as poor.

    Any idiot, any idiot can try to cherry pick form. Rather than thinking you are proving the point or winning the arguement, it just shows you can click links on the racing post site. Most boring game played on this forum. You know who can click those links as well - the official handicapper. It is not a simple fact that if he was trained in Ireland that he would be rated higher or lower. The end of year figures are agreed internationally, by the Irish handicapper.

    What's funny is that you haven't mentioned the best horse sea the stars best -rip van winkle.


  • #54
    Cheekpieces
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭Cheekpieces


    Morgans wrote: »
    Cima de triumphe - sweet jesus. Good for everyone that you posted what they did as most racing fans wouldn't know given how poor they are. Irish at leger, jesus. And excelebration and farhh dismissed as poor.

    Any idiot, any idiot can try to cherry pick form. Rather than thinking you are proving the point or winning the arguement, it just shows you can click links on the racing post site. Most boring game played on this forum. You know who can click those links as well - the official handicapper. It is not a simple fact that if he was trained in Ireland that he would be rated higher or lower. The end of year figures are agreed internationally, by the Irish handicapper.

    What's funny is that you haven't mentioned the best horse sea the stars best -rip van winkle.

    can not make head nor tail of what you have posted


  • #55
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    Morgans wrote: »
    Cima de triumphe - sweet jesus. Good for everyone that you posted what they did as most racing fans wouldn't know given how poor they are. Irish at leger, jesus. And excelebration and farhh dismissed as poor.

    Any idiot, any idiot can try to cherry pick form. Rather than thinking you are proving the point or winning the arguement, it just shows you can click links on the racing post site. Most boring game played on this forum. You know who can click those links as well - the official handicapper. It is not a simple fact that if he was trained in Ireland that he would be rated higher or lower. The end of year figures are agreed internationally, by the Irish handicapper.

    What's funny is that you haven't mentioned the best horse sea the stars best -rip van winkle.

    You had already mentioned the Rip. He won a few races over a mile and a Juddmonte. But the QE II he won was average and he had a lovely age allowance in the Sussex. I wouldn't rate him as high as Conduit, Mastercraftsman, Fame and Glory or Dar Re Mi.

    I also think Fonthill Road is underated, but no one ever listens.

    Try walking it off.


  • #56
    Dr. Bre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,741 ✭✭✭Dr. Bre


    Best mate. Three gold cups but because he didn’t beat much( in peoples opinions ) he not that much of a legend


  • #57
    slimshady007
    Registered Users Posts: 727 ✭✭✭slimshady007


    Plasandrunt wrote: »
    Love BB but the Staying hurdle division was so poor for so many years, I would personally have Barracouda over Big Bucks

    Barracouda was good but BB was a beast. He always showed up and batted away any new kids on the block. One year in particular where Nicholls horses had all run below par at Cheltenham but BB still chalked up another win.

    I'd have Inglis Drever ahead of Barracouda personally. Unfortunately injury prevented him racking up the four timer but to win the 3 around the year he missed was some going and was still a relatively young horse when he was retired due to injury. I always get the sense his legacy was tarnished somewhat by his trainers subsequent behaviour and ban.


  • #58
    tryfix
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭tryfix


    It's all a bit subjective, the handicappers tend to drag up the flashy types while leaving the ultra-consistent just do enough to win types as they are no matter how much versatility and class they display. It's much easier to find a horse who has been overrated by the handicapper than it is to find a horse who hasn't received the "to the lb" handicap rating that their win entitled them to.

    One horse who was a bit hard done by in the history books is Camelot although his 124 rating for winning at Epsom was plenty generous. He should have been the first Triple Crown winner since Nijinsky, but the subsequently disgraced drug test failure Encke took his St Leger and Camelot never recovered his mojo after that. If that St Leger had been his he would have retired as a Champion 2yo who had taken the four Classics of the 2,000 Guineas, Epsom Derby, Irish Derby and St Leger. He could have retired as a 3yo and retained his 124 rating instead of staying in training as a 4yo and dropping back to 118.

    His Soft/Heavy ground runs trashed his reputation too, he scrambled home on Soft/Heavy Going in the Irish Derby and somehow managed to start as 2/1f on atrocious Heavy ground in the Arc where he was thrashed 12 1/4L by the 33/1 shot Solemia.


  • #59
    Morgans
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,429 ✭✭✭Morgans


    tryfix wrote: »
    It's all a bit subjective, the handicappers tend to drag up the flashy types while leaving the ultra-consistent just do enough to win types as they are no matter how much versatility and class they display. It's much easier to find a horse who has been overrated by the handicapper than it is to find a horse who hasn't received the "to the lb" handicap rating that their win entitled them to.

    One horse who was a bit hard done by in the history books is Camelot although his 124 rating for winning at Epsom was plenty generous. He should have been the first Triple Crown winner since Nijinsky, but the subsequently disgraced drug test failure Encke took his St Leger and Camelot never recovered his mojo after that. If that St Leger had been his he would have retired as a Champion 2yo who had taken the four Classics of the 2,000 Guineas, Epsom Derby, Irish Derby and St Leger. He could have retired as a 3yo and retained his 124 rating instead of staying in training as a 4yo and dropping back to 118.

    His Soft/Heavy ground runs trashed his reputation too, he scrambled home on Soft/Heavy Going in the Irish Derby and somehow managed to start as 2/1f on atrocious Heavy ground in the Arc where he was thrashed 12 1/4L by the 33/1 shot Solemia.

    They are rating the horses performance not the horse. So the flashy horse that beats a 125 rated horse by 10l can be justiably given a higher rating. All the more so, if the 125 rated horse has a 120 rated horse three lengths behind in third The ultra consistent horse who 'only just does enough' and wins by 2l cannot be given a similar rating. It is guesswork what he would have done against a higher rated horse and while your opinion might be that he would have won, he certainly didn't price it on the track, and cannot be treated as if he did.

    I agree with Camelot. The Irish derby ended his career really, and running there was curious.


  • #60
    Morgans
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,429 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Cheekpieces wrote: »
    can not make head nor tail of what you have posted

    Exactly


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  • #61
    Morgans
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,429 ✭✭✭Morgans


    These are older but zilzal rarely gets mentioned as a great horse - didn't really do it for long enough - but from older videos, he was very classy and from reports at the time was seen as the best.

    Browne's Gazette won his supreme novices in the style of a proper champion. Lost it at the start of See You Thens first champion hurdle and died soon after. Rarely gets mentioned as a great.

    Lescargot won the supreme, fifth in a champion, won two gold cups and I've never seen an easier grand national winner - you'd swear no national horse could laugh at red rum given how he is spoken about, but lescargot treated him like he was a low grade handicapper.


  • #62
    th hen
    Registered Users Posts: 191 ✭✭th hen


    holy motivation


  • #63
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    David Junior


  • #64
    tryfix
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭tryfix


    Morgans wrote: »
    They are rating the horses performance not the horse. So the flashy horse that beats a 125 rated horse by 10l can be justiably given a higher rating. All the more so, if the 125 rated horse has a 120 rated horse three lengths behind in third The ultra consistent horse who 'only just does enough' and wins by 2l cannot be given a similar rating. It is guesswork what he would have done against a higher rated horse and while your opinion might be that he would have won, he certainly didn't price it on the track, and cannot be treated as if he did.

    I agree with Camelot. The Irish derby ended his career really, and running there was curious.
    I agree the ratings should be based on what a horse did rather than on what they may have in the locker. In certain circumstances a known quality horse will win with any amount in hand and they are given some credit for what they had in hand.

    What I meant by the flashy types getting the ratings is that if an upcoming horse wins a top race by a few lengths they are very often given a higher rating for that performance than the straight forward technical lbs to lengths adjustment for that distance of race. When you have a trainer like O'Brien who is happy to win races without fully letting the choke out on a horse, it becomes hard to assess the true worth of many of his horses as they can only be rated on the short distances that they were usually pushed out to. His legions of blue blooded G1 120+ horses should surely have produced more 128+ types than they have done.

    You mentioned Zilzal ( OR 134) who was a truly brilliant miler with what I remember as a spectacular running style. He seemed to my eyes when in full stride to be bringing his front legs back between his rear legs as a greyhound or hare would do. He benefited too from having the brilliant French 3yo miler Polish Precedent running in his QE II win. The changing international racing scene since then has robbed the Classic crops of the tried and tested road to greatness and high ratings that was the old European Pattern.


  • #65
    supremenovice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 976 ✭✭✭supremenovice


    I'm going to give a shout for Henrythenavigator.
    Coventry winner at 2. Dual Guineas winner and St James Palace winner beating one of the best 1m2f horses of the century in New Approach twice along the way.
    Then runner up in the Breeders Cup Classic beating his more fancied stablemate Duke of Marmalade. Bit of a dud at the stud unfortunately but never even mentioned amongst Ballydoyle greats to be fair. He is in my opinion.


  • #66
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Another jumps horse here - My Tent Or Yours.

    Definitely one of the more unlucky ones considering his three second places in the Champion Hurdle. I genuinely think he could have been special were it not for his injury.


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  • #67
    I says
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,977 ✭✭✭I says


    Flyingbolt was always in Arkles shadow


  • #68
    droidman123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,538 ✭✭✭droidman123


    I says wrote: »
    Flyingbolt was always in Arkles shadow

    Great call on flying bolt,what an incredible c.v that horse had.the only horse to come close to arkle on the timeform ratings (210/212) would of been interesting if a different trainer had of trained both arkle and and flying bolt.


  • #69
    Morgans
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,429 ✭✭✭Morgans


    If we are talking ancient history - Flyingbolt has always been the one horse everyone says its underrated for the last 30 years. It wasn't until Arkle won his second Cheltenham Gold Cup that Tom Dreaper would reluctantly admit that he was better than Prince Regent.


  • #70
    Imhof Tank
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭Imhof Tank


    Zilzal often crops up in these conversations but for me he's massively overrated if anything. As I remember it without googling he did nothing as a 2yo or in the guineas and was only a force for a few months in his 3yo summer as a pure miler.

    A jumper I feel never gets due credit would be The Fellow. 2 King George's and a Gold Cup - beaten a short head in 2 earlier Gold Cups before finally doing it at the 4th attempt.


  • #71
    Morgans
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,429 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Imhof Tank wrote: »
    Zilzal often crops up in these conversations but for me he's massively overrated if anything. As I remember it without googling he did nothing as a 2yo or in the guineas and was only a force for a few months in his 3yo summer as a pure miler.

    A jumper I feel never gets due credit would be The Fellow. 2 King George's and a Gold Cup - beaten a short head in 2 earlier Gold Cups before finally doing it at the 4th attempt.

    He raced for five months as a three year old and beat what looked like a star group of milers of that year silly. (Warning and Markofdistinction being two). Not sure how he could be massively overrated, given his career. He did nothing at two, because he never raced at two.

    The Fellow is a good shout.


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  • #72
    Imhof Tank
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭Imhof Tank


    Lol Zilzal still a divisive case 30 years on!

    When Walter Swinburn died he was mentioned as one of the best he rode up there with Shergar etc. How could that be right - only a 5 month career as you say.

    I'm sceptical myself because I was in the US that summer and didn't see him on TV at the time. What I remember him mainly for was going to the Breeders Cup at Gulfstream as a European banker and lots of excuses being made for his defeat.


  • #73
    Morgans
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,429 ✭✭✭Morgans


    You'd like to think that Walter Swinburn would have an idea of the talent he sat on. I don't think it's a question about the career that a horse had, but the talent he had.

    The late 80s was the worst for shipping off good 3 year olds to stud, and for Europeans turning up in the US expecting to beat the best in the Breeders Cup without drugs. Dancing Brave getting hammered over there as well.


  • #74
    Imhof Tank
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭Imhof Tank


    But sure how to you properly assess talent if a horse isn't around long enough? The top flat horse must have some precosity and durability as well as brilliance IMO.


  • #75
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    Solwhit


  • #76
    Shemale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Shemale


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    The thing is you can't. Sea the Stars was simply beating better horses than Frankel. I listed them above.

    Nathaniel and Canford cliffs is all I will give the discussion. But I am not having Farhh or Dubawi Gold, no way.

    Mastercraftsman, Conduit , Fame and Glory, Dar Re Mi, Stacelita. They are different class.

    I haven't started adding up the group 1 wins yet....

    Worth mentioning Canford Cliffs lugged across the track was found to be injured and subsequently retired.


  • #77
    tryfix
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭tryfix


    Shemale wrote: »
    Worth mentioning Canford Cliffs lugged across the track was found to be injured and subsequently retired.

    On Canford Cliffs' previous run he very easily beat Rio De Le Plata by 5L. In the Sussex be beat the same horse by just 2 1/2L so it's reasonable to think that a veering Canford Cliffs ran 2 1/2L or 5lb below his best behind Frankel. It was still an awesome display by Frankel and he was raised to 135 OR for that win when a 132 OR was more like its true worth.


  • #78
    tryfix
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭tryfix


    Desert Orchid was a true giant of the jump scene back in the 80s. His star has definitely waned since then.


  • #79
    Plasandrunt
    Registered Users Posts: 858 ✭✭✭Plasandrunt


    Frankel, Sea The Stars and now Desert Orchid in a conversation about underrated horses?


  • #80
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    Plasandrunt wrote: »
    Frankel, Sea The Stars and now Desert Orchid in a conversation about underrated horses?

    Agreed, Dessie never waned in my eyes.

    No one mentioned Snow Fairy yet?

    I think she fetched 6,000 guineas as a yearling? Shows what you can buy if you shop around. She won 4 million sterling and has knocked out 3 foals in 5 years.


  • #81
    NaiveMelodies
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,172 ✭✭✭NaiveMelodies


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    Agreed, Dessie never waned in my eyes.

    No one mentioned Snow Fairy yet?

    I think she fetched 6,000 guineas as a yearling? Shows what you can buy if you shop around. She won 4 million sterling and has knocked out 3 foals in 5 years.

    Who underrates Snow Fairy? She gets her fair share of plaudits and deservedly so.


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  • #82
    byronbay2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭byronbay2


    Imhof Tank wrote: »
    A jumper I feel never gets due credit would be The Fellow. 2 King George's and a Gold Cup - beaten a short head in 2 earlier Gold Cups before finally doing it at the 4th attempt.

    I hate to be the stereotypical xenophobic racing fan but I really feel that The Fellow's jockey, Adam Kondrat, cost the horse equine immortality. A gorgeous, big, athletic animal, he reminds me very much of Kauto Star. Kondrat was a very safe, cagey jockey who never rousted the horse into a fence or race-rode to get/keep the best position. I also felt that he was very weak in a finish. I believe that, if The Fellow had been ridden by Adrian Maguire or Richard Dunwoody, he would be ranked as one of the greatest of all chasers.


  • #83
    NaiveMelodies
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,172 ✭✭✭NaiveMelodies


    Had a good think about this and I reckon if Canford Cliffs hadn't taken on Frankel (in arguably unsuitable conditions) he'd be a lot more revered today.
    He won 5 grade ones on the bounce following a 2000 guineas in which he had plenty of excuses.
    The manner in which he won his races was so visually impressive - a seemingly effortless burst of acceleration usually putting his opponents to the sword.
    His win in the Irish guineas and win over Goldikova both stick in the memory.
    I very rarely hear him mentioned, even by the Hannons!


  • #84
    tryfix
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭tryfix


    NaiveMelodies wrote: »
    Had a good think about this and I reckon if Canford Cliffs hadn't taken on Frankel (in arguably unsuitable conditions) he'd be a lot more revered today.
    He won 5 grade ones on the bounce following a 2000 guineas in which he had plenty of excuses.
    The manner in which he won his races was so visually impressive - a seemingly effortless burst of acceleration usually putting his opponents to the sword.
    His win in the Irish guineas and win over Goldikova both stick in the memory.
    I very rarely hear him mentioned, even by the Hannons!


    His 6L win in the Coventry Stakes as a 2yo was spectacular as well.


  • #85
    Morgans
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,429 ✭✭✭Morgans


    So underrated I forgot about him until today but Captain Christy deserves more profile than he has.


  • #86
    Peintre Celebre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,484 ✭✭✭Peintre Celebre


    Sinndar, Generous, Peintre Celebre rarely mentioned when speaking of greats but definitely up there. Alamshar as well, not as good as the first three but definitely under rated. Beat Dalakhani in the Irish derby and impressive in the King George. Threw in a couple of below par runs though so can see why.


  • #87
    Panrich
    Registered Users Posts: 3,840 ✭✭✭Panrich


    Ridgewood Pearl seems to be totally overlooked when great horses are discussed but she had a great career. Won G1 races in 4 different countries as a 3yo and the only defeat that season was in the QEII where Willie Carson basically stole the race on Bahri by taking him right over on to the far side of the track.

    Still, wins in the Irish 1000G, Coronation stakes at Royal Ascot, Prix de Moulin and the Breeders cup mile is some record.


  • #88
    Slattsy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,775 ✭✭✭✭Slattsy


    Have not read through the thread but St Nicholas Abbey is one for me.


  • #89
    byronbay2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭byronbay2


    NaiveMelodies wrote: »
    Had a good think about this and I reckon if Canford Cliffs hadn't taken on Frankel (in arguably unsuitable conditions) he'd be a lot more revered today.

    Remember taking a half-day from work to watch that race (never did it before or since) to make sure no "crisis" or "emergency" could stop me watching it. Thought it could have been one of the greatest races of all time! Disappointed that CC under-performed, obviously, but had given him a real chance of beating Frankel, although didn't back anything.


  • #90
    supremenovice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 976 ✭✭✭supremenovice


    Slattsy wrote: »
    Have not read through the thread but St Nicholas Abbey is one for me.

    I wouldn't have said underrated to be honest. He couldn't get it done at two tries at the Arc and two tries at the King George. Won a hat trick of Coronation Stakes but the opposition was weak. I loved this horse and will'd him on every race but in fairness he came up short against quality opposition.


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  • #91
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    supremenovice wrote: »
    I wouldn't have said underrated to be honest. He couldn't get it done at two tries at the Arc and two tries at the King George. Won a hat trick of Coronation Stakes but the opposition was weak. I loved this horse and will'd him on every race but in fairness he came up short against quality opposition.

    Agreed, he fluffed his lines too many times, he was expensive to follow. When he won his breeders cup I couldn't get on either. As a betting proposition he was a nightmare. I remember him getting bet at 2/5 on the Curragh, by Windsor Palace...… not good.


  • #92
    Rabbit Redux
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭Rabbit Redux


    Peintre Celebre wrote: »
    Sinndar, Generous, Peintre Celebre rarely mentioned when speaking of greats but definitely up there. Alamshar as well, not as good as the first three but definitely under rated. Beat Dalakhani in the Irish derby and impressive in the King George. Threw in a couple of below par runs though so can see why.

    It's a shame that Peintre Celebre got injured and didn't have a 4yo career - his Arc win was sublime, considering an exceptional horse like Pilsudski was made to look second rate in that Arc. I've never seen a horse accelerate at the end of a 12f race the way Peintre Celebre did that day at Longchamp.

    Sinndar was a victim of the Aga Khan's unquenchable appetite to pack his horses off to stud, and Generous likewise with Fahd Salman.


  • #93
    byronbay2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭byronbay2


    Rabbit Redux wrote: »
    It's a shame that Peintre Celebre got injured and didn't have a 4yo career - his Arc win was sublime, considering an exceptional horse like Pilsudski was made to look second rate in that Arc. I've never seen a horse accelerate at the end of a 12f race the way Peintre Celebre did that day at Longchamp.

    Sinndar was a victim of the Aga Khan's unquenchable appetite to pack his horses off to stud, and Generous likewise with Fahd Salman.

    Did you see See The Stars in his Arc? Looked in an absolutely impossible position but with one magnificent burst of speed, the race was over!


  • #94
    tryfix
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭tryfix


    Rabbit Redux wrote: »
    It's a shame that Peintre Celebre got injured and didn't have a 4yo career - his Arc win was sublime, considering an exceptional horse like Pilsudski was made to look second rate in that Arc. I've never seen a horse accelerate at the end of a 12f race the way Peintre Celebre did that day at Longchamp.

    Sinndar was a victim of the Aga Khan's unquenchable appetite to pack his horses off to stud, and Generous likewise with Fahd Salman.


    Maybe you weren't around to see this final furlong.



  • #95
    ComplyOrDie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 538 ✭✭✭ComplyOrDie


    Free eagle
    Ran out an easy winner of G3 on the same card as champion stakes. Race was same distance, same weight etc, he was off a long layoff, time would have won the champion stakes.

    Never really got the respect he deserved imo.


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