Colleague travelling abroad for holiday

Freddie Mercurys Bolero · 22-06-2020 12:05am #1

Hi, I work in residential care. My colleague has just informed me that he is going on holiday to Spain in July. He does not intend to isolate when he returns. He says he cannot take two weeks off when he returns to isolate. I don't have much faith in management enforcing this either tbh. I am concerned about vulernerable residents that I work with. I am concerned about my own health and my families health if this person intends to travel and not isolate. This person does wear PPE during work, as do I but they are not always careful with hand hygiene (constantly need to be reminded) and often take off their mask to talk etc. Can anyone advise me on what the government guidelines are for people returning to work following travel abroad please.

MrsBean · 22-06-2020 12:18am

The current advice on the HSE website is that those returning to Ireland will be asked to self-isolate for 14 days, likely to be updated over the next few weeks.
I can't see how a residential care facility could justify not enforcing a 14 day isolation following a staff member travelling abroad. If I were you I would ask management how they intend to deal with staff members returning from holidays abroad - you don't have to be specific about the staff member.

Freddie Mercurys Bolero · 22-06-2020 12:30am

I should. But I am betting the manager will tell me they have no one to fill his shifts. Manager is very lax. He's the only person going abroad as far as I know - only 18 staff in the particular house I am in so I'd say the magaer will know. I really should get a new job. Thanks for the advice.

Batgurl · 22-06-2020 9:51am

If, by the time the person goes on holidays, the 14-day requirement to quarantine is lifted (as many suspect it will be) then there is nothing you, your manager or your company can do about it.

The person has the right to do what they want in their personal time.

I understand this virus is causing a lot of people to question legal obligations vs moral obligations, and you are entitled to your moral opinion but you can’t foist it on anyone else.

The person could currently be going to house parties every weekend, mixing with 100’s of people. We don’t know that this person travelling abroad is going to make them any more at risk than currently.

Strumms · 22-06-2020 1:01pm

Relay the scenario via email to management. You don’t need to mention the name of the colleague yet. But say that “you are being told by a colleague of their intention to do xyz, what are the intentions of the company to ensure that the health, safety and wellbeing of staff and residents will be the prime consideration ?”

If 14 day quarantine is still a thing and say this colleague is out and away from the business for 10 working... that’s approximately 20 working days between the holiday and quarantine....

In my mind if I’m an employer that whole 20 days is coming out of their holiday allowance as they are ‘choosing’ to use the time in such a fashion that will prevent them from working, they are choosing this.

Freddie Mercurys Bolero · 22-06-2020 1:56pm

I hear you Batgurl but I don't agree with your point. I would argue that one has a moral obligation to safeguard the health and well-being of the residents we care for. They are vulnerable and do not have the capacity to care for themselves. This person has been meeting up with family members for drinks, even during lockdown. Not hundreds of people, but 15 at one point. So this is kind of the straw that breaks the camels back for me.

Freddie Mercurys Bolero · 22-06-2020 2:01pm

Strumms wrote: »

Relay the scenario via email to management. You don’t need to mention the name of the colleague yet. But say that “you are being told by a colleague of their intention to do xyz, what are the intentions of the company to ensure that the health, safety and wellbeing of staff and residents will be the prime consideration ?”

If 14 day quarantine is still a thing and say this colleague is out and away from the business for 10 working... that’s approximately 20 working days between the holiday and quarantine....

Thanks for your advice. think I will phone my manager if they go. Their flight is on the third and I'm hoping it will be cancelled. My workplace isn't the sort of place where you could send an email like that in confidence, sadly. The manager would show it to everyone and anyone. The person in question isn't even directly employed by the organisation, I should have said in my original post. They are an agency worker, they've been working agency in my house for two years now. So the manager is under no obligation to book them, she could just book another agency person. But the manager may not want the hassle.

Strumms · 22-06-2020 2:05pm

Freddie Mercurys Bolero wrote: »

Thanks for your advice. think I will phone my manager if they go. Their flight is on the third and I'm hoping it will be cancelled. My workplace isn't the sort of place where you could send an email like that in confidence, sadly. The manager would show it to everyone and anyone. The person in question isn't even directly employed by the organisation, I should have said in my original post. They are an agency worker, they've been working agency in my house for two years now. So the manager is under no obligation to book them, she could just book another agency person. But the manager may not want the hassle.

Manager needs to want the hassle ! Agency staff ? Actually Fûck them, walk right in and tell your boss, name names too, you owe them zero and they clearly are not thinking about other staff and clients/patients with even the slightest concern or regard.

mlem123 · 22-06-2020 2:13pm

Hey Freddie, that's not fair to all the staff working in the facility as well as to the residents themselves. If you feel like management won't take it seriously call HSE Live, I know there is a call line for HCW's to bring up issues. It might just prompt the local public health office/CHO office to give them a call and they might ask about staff leave etc

I know the last few months haven't been easy and you've probably sacrificed a lot so I can understand the annoyance.

Rodin · 22-06-2020 2:15pm

If they return to work and quarantine in place give HIQA a buzz.

Notmything · 22-06-2020 2:20pm

Hey, I also work in residential, childrens.

My employer has advised against overseas holidays but any employee who goes must take two weeks off for self isolation. They can request a/l to cover this but it may not be granted. They have suggested that there could be disciplinary action if they ignore this advice.

House manager has been instructed to keep them off the roster for those two weeks so they don't have the option to return to work.

Batgurl · 22-06-2020 2:29pm

Freddie Mercurys Bolero wrote: »

I hear you Batgurl but I don't agree with your point. I would argue that one has a moral obligation to safeguard the health and well-being of the residents we care for. They are vulnerable and do not have the capacity to care for themselves. This person has been meeting up with family members for drinks, even during lockdown. Not hundreds of people, but 15 at one point. So this is kind of the straw that breaks the camels back for me.

I actually agree with your morals and what you are proposing in principle, but you asked for the Government guidelines.

And the fact is, if the Government lift the 14-day quarantine there is Jack-Sh!t you or your company can do to stop that person legally. Also, what’s to stop that person saying they sat in their house for 7 or 14 days? You’d need to prove they went abroad and you are straying into invasion of privacy there.

We may not agree with how this whole quarantine is playing out but fighting the system needs to come much higher up at a government level. In my opinion, no employer is going to make exceptions if it’s going to cost them money or make life in anyway difficult for them.

Batgurl · 22-06-2020 2:30pm

Notmything wrote: »

Hey, I also work in residential, childrens.

My employer has advised against overseas holidays but any employee who goes must take two weeks off for self isolation. They can request a/l to cover this but it may not be granted. They have suggested that there could be disciplinary action if they ignore this advice.

House manager has been instructed to keep them off the roster for those two weeks so they don't have the option to return to work.

How do they plan to monitor where people go in their time off?

Freddie Mercurys Bolero · 22-06-2020 2:36pm

Strumms wrote: »

Manager needs to want the hassle ! Agency staff ? Actually Fûck them, walk right in and tell your boss, name names too, you owe them zero and they clearly are not thinking about other staff and clients/patients with even the slightest concern or regard.

I will definitely call management. The 'hassle' in question is unfamiliar staff generally could cause residents with challenging behaviour to lash out/self harm etc. Unfamiliar staff leads to more incidents , almost always unfortunately. Managent is a joke too.

I will phone them and contine to annoy them until they do something if he goes on holiday. The tatic of calling them repeatedly often works, they don't like that hassle either!

Freddie Mercurys Bolero · 22-06-2020 2:38pm

Rodin wrote: »

If they return to work and quarantine in place give HIQA a buzz.

Jaysus that would definitely make me unpopular . It's an option alright, but the very last resort.

Freddie Mercurys Bolero · 22-06-2020 2:42pm

mlem123 wrote: »

Hey Freddie, that's not fair to all the staff working in the facility as well as to the residents themselves. If you feel like management won't take it seriously call HSE Live, I know there is a call line for HCW's to bring up issues. It might just prompt the local public health office/CHO office to give them a call and they might ask about staff leave etc

I know the last few months haven't been easy and you've probably sacrificed a lot so I can understand the annoyance.

Thanks. I really have. But it was the right thing to do. Maybe HSE live will give me some guidance
Thanks for your advice.

Rodin · 22-06-2020 2:43pm

Freddie Mercurys Bolero wrote: »

Jaysus that would definitely make me unpopular . It's an option alright, but the very last resort.

You are employed to serve your patients/clients.

Nursing home/residential homes are responsible for more than half of Covid deaths in this country.

Freddie Mercurys Bolero · 22-06-2020 2:46pm

Notmything wrote: »

Hey, I also work in residential, childrens.

My employer has advised against overseas holidays but any employee who goes must take two weeks off for self isolation. They can request a/l to cover this but it may not be granted. They have suggested that there could be disciplinary action if they ignore this advice.

House manager has been instructed to keep them off the roster for those two weeks so they don't have the option to return to work.

I used to work in residential children too. Glad to see your management have a protocol in place. Thanks for the advice.

Freddie Mercurys Bolero · 22-06-2020 2:51pm

Rodin wrote: »

You are employed to serve your patients/clients.

Nursing home/residential homes are responsible for more than half of Covid deaths in this country.

I'm aware. Which is why I have been so, so careful. And why I'm asking for advice. Thanks for your guidance. But I don't think you realise how much we are at the mercy of HIQA inspections. HIQA have made some huge improvements in our service and in the quality of peoples lives in some areas. But they have also made changes that imo (and others) are detrimental to the lives of our service users.

Freddie Mercurys Bolero · 22-06-2020 2:54pm

Batgurl wrote: »

I actually agree with your morals and what you are proposing in principle, but you asked for the Government guidelines.

And the fact is, if the Government lift the 14-day quarantine there is Jack-Sh!t you or your company can do to stop that person legally. Also, what’s to stop that person saying they sat in their house for 7 or 14 days? You’d need to prove they went abroad and you are straying into invasion of privacy there.

We may not agree with how this whole quarantine is playing out but fighting the system needs to come much higher up at a government level. In my opinion, no employer is going to make exceptions if it’s going to cost them money or make life in anyway difficult for them.

Don't want to name my employer but they are not a private employer. So that why I asked for government guidelines etc, I thought that would have some sway with management. That's the tactic that usually works with management if they are being lax. Emailing them a policy, guidelines or even legislation in some cases helps.

I see where your coming for and I appreciate your advice, though, thanks.

Notmything · 22-06-2020 3:14pm

Batgurl wrote: »

How do they plan to monitor where people go in their time off?

Most of them put their lives on social media. But in reality it's about self policing, if someone goes abroad for two weeks, comes back to work without self isolating what does that say about their professional attitude to their colleagues and the kids we look after.

Management have made all staff aware of the disciplinary process for not adhering to current guidelines. Now if the guidelines change then that's a different story.

Mrs OBumble · 22-06-2020 10:46pm

Batgurl wrote: »

The person has the right to do what they want in their personal time.

Nope.

Almost all contracts require you not bring your employer into disrepute - doesn't matter if it's during working hours or not.

Employers are required to monitor your totally time in paid work (for all employers, not just them) so you don't exceed more than 48 hours/week, on average.

One company that I'm doing some work for (nothing like as sensitive industry as residential care, either) brought in a policy in February that all foreign travel is subject to management approval - and yes, this includes during personal time.

Batgurl · 22-06-2020 11:03pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Nope.

Almost all contracts require you not bring your employer into disrepute - doesn't matter if it's during working hours or not.

Employers are required to monitor your totally time in paid work (for all employers, not just them) so you don't exceed more than 48 hours/week, on average.

One company that I'm doing some work for (nothing like as sensitive industry as residential care, either) brought in a policy in February that all foreign travel is subject to management approval - and yes, this includes during personal time.

I think you may have misunderstood me Mrs OB.

I’m only talking about a scenario whereby the government permit foreign travel for leisure purposes without the need for 14-day quarantine (which obviously isn’t the case right now but likely will be in July).

A company can’t claim you are bringing them into disrepute if you aren’t breaking any laws and are following govt advice. Any company who tried to punish an employee for same would be torn apart by a half decent employment solicitor.

As I’ve said, we can all have a moral opinion on what employees should and shouldn’t do but if the government ease quarantine restrictions, then legally there is nothing that can be done to stop it happening, regardless of industry etc.

Spanish Eyes · 22-06-2020 11:07pm

Name and shame the facility. Forget it otherwise.

Freddie Mercurys Bolero · 22-06-2020 11:27pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Name and shame the facility. Forget it otherwise.

This makes no sense to me. It is a home to our residents, why would I name and shame? If he goes, I will approach management to ask them how they will deal with it. I'll phone HSE helpline for advice when I'm off work and get a chance. Thanks everyone for your help.

radiotrickster · 30-06-2020 10:01pm

Hope you got it sorted OP.

I’m working in a hospital atm where they’ve said that anyone intending to travel abroad is now obligated to tell their manager and will have to take two weeks out of their annual leave to self-isolate as well. Won’t be doable or worthwhile for most people!

I’ve a colleague who said they 100% intend on taking their holiday next month and if they do, I 100% intend on reporting them. Health and safety has to come first.

return guide · 30-06-2020 10:21pm

Batgurl wrote: »

I think you may have misunderstood me Mrs OB.

I’m only talking about a scenario whereby the government permit foreign travel for leisure purposes without the need for 14-day quarantine (which obviously isn’t the case right now but likely will be in July).

A company can’t claim you are bringing them into disrepute if you aren’t breaking any laws and are following govt advice. Any company who tried to punish an employee for same would be torn apart by a half decent employment solicitor.

As I’ve said, we can all have a moral opinion on what employees should and shouldn’t do but if the government ease quarantine restrictions, then legally there is nothing that can be done to stop it happening, regardless of industry etc.

You do realise that the scenario the op is referring to is in 3 days not 3 months.(Post 7)
It is very unlikely the government guidelines are going to change by the 3rd of July.

OP it is down to you to raise your concerns with your manger, by mail so you have a record. If nothing happens you should take it further.
If your colleague takes the holiday, they most isolate on their return for the sake of the people in both your care.

Minier81 · 30-06-2020 10:27pm

radiotrickster wrote: »

Hope you got it sorted OP.

I’m working in a hospital atm where they’ve said that anyone intending to travel abroad is now obligated to tell their manager and will have to take two weeks out of their annual leave to self-isolate as well. Won’t be doable or worthwhile for most people!

I’ve a colleague who said they 100% intend on taking their holiday next month and if they do, I 100% intend on reporting them. Health and safety has to come first.

We have been told the same thing by work, if travelling abroad we need to use extra annual leave to cover the 14 day quarantine.

Batgurl · 30-06-2020 10:34pm

return guide wrote: »

You do realise that the scenario the op is referring to is in 3 days not 3 months.(Post 7)
It is very unlikely the government guidelines are going to change by the 3rd of July.

OP it is down to you to raise your concerns with your manger, by mail so you have a record. If nothing happens you should take it further.
If your colleague takes the holiday, they most isolate on their return for the sake of the people in both your care.

You do realise I wrote that over a week ago when the removal of quarantine was being actively discussed by Govt?

I still believe they will remove this requirement in July, but this is just my opinion.

If they do remove this, then employers can not legally force employees to quarantine for 2 weeks if they go abroad. They would first have to prove an employee had been abroad, which is a minefield in itself. There will be legal cases taken eventually against those who try.

I can’t emphasise this enough; I don’t necessarily agree with this, it’s simply facts and law.

Keyman123 · 18-07-2020 6:44pm

I’ve a similar predicament but it’s the owner/manager. He has no intention of self isolating when he gets back,maintains its business related -10 days-and will be in direct contact with 30+ people when he gets back. No middle management. Nothing we can do. Need our jobs.

repulsebay321 · 18-07-2020 6:56pm

Everyone needs to keep really good records. Emails with responses from management saved. If anyone is seriously ill or dies as a result of this kind of negligence, I'd like to see it go to court.

Colleague travelling abroad for holiday

Comments