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Stressed friend having work issue
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27-06-2020 6:08pm#1Hi there, first post as I am very worried about a close friend. Went to meet her for a few minutes in a hospital carpark as her child is ill. She wasn’t herself at all normally very grounded so she told me of the shock she got yesterday. She was off yesterday and has been off every Friday, Mon and Wed since Feb since her child got ill but she has worked remotely on those days to catch up. She got a text off her boss accusing her of not answering her phone all day she has it off in the room we all know the deal when it’s good or not to phone her. Anyway she gets this text with a letter saying they want to have a disciplinary hearing with her on Monday as some issues have arose that need explanation and are suspending her on full pay. She rang him back he gave nothing away and she was so shocked she just said ok and she would get back to him. He also said she can bring someone so it must be serious. It’s pretty obvious she can’t attend too much going on she has to stay where she is. Regardless of that she then discovered on her paye online that her husband logged into to check his new info that her employment with them is down as ceased since Thursday???. I told her I would make a few calls etc to seek help for her. Can anyone advise. She is working there almost 3 years and is an amazing person my heart is broken for her don’t think she can take much more. She was having an issue with a new manager constantly discredited & one weekend in May she got over 70 emails from that person. When she said something she was told to put up with it till they chill out basically. None of us knew she was going through this the focus has been on the family. How can I help and support her?.2
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It’s a bit difficult to follow your post, are you saying she works five days a week, three remotely at home, or she is gone to a part time two day week and they are contacting her on weekdays she isn’t working?
If she wfh on a five day week and incommunicado during office hours at home, that’s a problem.0 -
It’s a bit difficult to follow your post, are you saying she works five days a week, three remotely at home, or she is gone to a part time two day week and they are contacting her on weekdays she isn’t working?
If she wfh on a five day week and incommunicado during office hours at home, that’s a problem.
No she is actually part time 20 hours Monday to Friday when she couldn’t do mornings did afternoons or evenings and did the same while working remotely, granted some days she couldn’t but always made sure there wasn’t anything outstanding on less busy times. Always did her 4 hours per day.0 -
If she is down as ‘ceased’ on paye online, print it and screenshot it ASAP.
That is proof that prior to the hearing that her employer has come to a predetermined conclusion as to the outcome of any investigation and or hearing. She could absolutely take them to the cleaners.
That being said, she should not mention this to them.0 -
Fresh air helps! wrote: »No she is actually part time 20 hours Monday to Friday when she couldn’t do mornings did afternoons or evenings and did the same while working remotely, granted some days she couldn’t but always made sure there wasn’t anything outstanding on less busy times. Always did her 4 hours per day.
But was her manager contacting her at times when she was supposed to be working for her employer?0 -
But was her manager contacting her at times when she was supposed to be working for her employer?
At weekends she is not supposed to be working. During the week she was always contactable and if she couldn’t she would tell them in advance even when they already knew she would send a message first thing to ensure they remembered she wasn’t available on the phone till a certain time in the afternoon or evening because she couldn’t deal with the panic texts while she is dealing with medical issues.0 -
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That sounds like a very stressful situation for her alright, and with a sick child along with the pandemic her mind has probably been distracted from work lately. It is difficult to advise without knowing more detail but there are very clear guidelines for disciplinary procedures in Ireland, and failure to follow them correctly can result in unfair dismissal which could be taken to the Workplace Relations Commission.
Normally there is a verbal warning, followed by 1st, 2nd and 3rd written warnings. If your friend has no idea what's going on then she is likely at stage one, the purpose of which is to allow her an opportunity to explain the reason behind any absences, delays, slips in standards etc. In your friends case it sounds like there are understandable reasons if there are indeed any issues with her work.
My advice to you and your friend would be to familiarise yourselves with the standard process for disciplinary procedures and for your friend to definitely bring a witness with her to the meeting on Monday, if even just for moral support.
As for the PAYE stating she is no longer employed with them since Thursday, I really don't know what to say.0 -
Sounds to me that she should go to the meeting and just take notes, not say anything. Tell them she will furnish answers to any questions they have once she's had time to consider the questions (having not been given prior notice of them). She should request the queries in writing.
Once she has it all in writing she can then consider whether a solicitor should be involved or not.
Really sounds like they are trying to get her out.
Keep a screenshot of the revenue update showing cessation of employment.
Also get a copy of her handbook and know it back to front.0 -
Great you are helping her sound s super stressful.
Good advice on post above about taking note of questions and not answering.
Sounds like miscommunication about when she will be working, easy happen especially in this remote environment. But bad management to let it go this far, a lot of managers struggle with remote teams.
Perhaps she could have some question prepared to ask them to document how they would like her working time to be communicated. Any software in use that would help? Even MS Outlook Calendar block out times of day not working.
Emails sent during weekend ect I wouldn't mind about that as always think emails are sent at a time convenient to sender can be read, actioned and replied at a convenient time too.
Good luck!0 -
there are very clear guidelines for disciplinary procedures in Ireland, and failure to follow them correctly can result in unfair dismissal which could be taken to the Workplace Relations Commission.
Normally there is a verbal warning, followed by 1st, 2nd and 3rd written warnings.
Not quite correct.
There are guidelines, but they are not compulsory. What is compulsory is for each company to have its own disciplinary process, and to follow it.
So what she needs to do is to be familiar with the company's own defined process.
And also to screenshot the PAYE cease (though they could say it was an accident),
And to attend Monday's meeting and say nothing. They will likely say things like "Do you agree that you did ABC?", so practice a reply like "I will respond once I've had time to consider all these issues" - ie don't give anything away.
Then it's solicitor and/or union time.
Likely she can take them to the cleaners - but keep in mind that a settlement which includes a clean reference is likely to be worth more long-term.0 -
Mrs OBumble wrote: »Not quite correct.
There are guidelines, but they are not compulsory. What is compulsory is for each company to have its own disciplinary process, and to follow it.
So what she needs to do is to be familiar with the company's own defined process.
And also to screenshot the PAYE cease (though they could say it was an accident),
And to attend Monday's meeting and say nothing. They will likely say things like "Do you agree that you did ABC?", so practice a reply like "I will respond once I've had time to consider all these issues" - ie don't give anything away.
Then it's solicitor and/or union time.
Likely she can take them to the cleaners - but keep in mind that a settlement which includes a clean reference is likely to be worth more long-term.
Thanks a million going to ring her tomorrow with all the information and advice I have gathered today and I think I will offer to go with her to. If she can’t attend on Monday as I suspect doctors will want to talk to her and have her there as her child gets really upset if she leaves the room even for a shower. When her husband is there to relieve her to sort out the rest of the family it’s very stressful. Can she postpone the meeting?0 -
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Wanted to update and ask another question. She cannot attend today and the way things are she possibly won’t be able to do anything outside of the hospital this week as things escalated unfortunately. She is really devastated and trying to keep up a front of strength for everyone else. She let her employer know yesterday she cannot attend and that she would let them know later today when she can.They never responded. On top of everything now she is worried that without her able to defend herself in person she doesn’t know what’s facing her and she is worried that they think she is avoiding or running away from the meeting and making things worse, but she physically can’t and to be honest I wouldn’t let her go anywhere outside right now she will just cry or crack up. I was going to ring a solicitor on her behalf or am I jumping the gun?.0
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Would her doctor give her a certificate to be on sick leave for a week? It won't solve anything, will just push the problem out a week but might take some of the pressure off for a few days.
The stress and pressure she is under sounds unreal. She could take a day or two to step back and look after her child, and then if she wants to go to a solicitor etc. she has time to sort it out before next week. I would say a solicitor is probably jumping the gun a little bit, I would agree with the previous advice that bringing someone with her, taking copious notes, and not responding beyond "I'll have to think about that and get back to you" is the right way to go.0 -
Would her doctor give her a certificate to be on sick leave for a week? It won't solve anything, will just push the problem out a week but might take some of the pressure off for a few days.
The stress and pressure she is under sounds unreal. She could take a day or two to step back and look after her child, and then if she wants to go to a solicitor etc. she has time to sort it out before next week. I would say a solicitor is probably jumping the gun a little bit, I would agree with the previous advice that bringing someone with her, taking copious notes, and not responding beyond "I'll have to think about that and get back to you" is the right way to go.
Thanks for that. She doesn’t want to keep pushing it out she is a very “deal with it now” person with regards to anything so she’s feeling so confused. It also looks like the dynamics of her family is about to change for a while which is so sad. She’s the one who will pull everyone through what is happening & be the main carer. She needs to just focus on that now and be left alone. I don’t know how she’s coping but I actually noticed on Saturday that she is thinner than she was when I last saw her and she looks exhausted. As a family they are keeping it all private until they have to start telling anyone which they will by the weekend as her childhood friend I am the only person that knows outside of her and her husband and his brother.0 -
Fresh air helps! wrote: »Thanks for that. She doesn’t want to keep pushing it out she is a very “deal with it now” person with regards to anything so she’s feeling so confused. It also looks like the dynamics of her family is about to change for a while which is so sad. She’s the one who will pull everyone through what is happening & be the main carer. She needs to just focus on that now and be left alone. I don’t know how she’s coping but I actually noticed on Saturday that she is thinner than she was when I last saw her and she looks exhausted. As a family they are keeping it all private until they have to start telling anyone which they will by the weekend as her childhood friend I am the only person that knows outside of her and her husband and his brother.
I understand the desire to "deal with it now" but it sounds like she has far more important things to look after. A week's sick leave would bring her to the time when she is ready to break what sounds like very bad news. At that point, what her work thinks/wants sounds even less important. Fighting a battle this week which may not be relevant next week seems like a waste of limited energy.
Anyway, it sounds like you're doing a good job supporting your friend! Best of luck to you and her.0 -
Get your friend to print out copies of the paye saying her employment is ceased. Tell her to go to meeting with manager but NOT to mention the cease date at all during meeting, just discuss and defend herself. Then she need to wait for outcome of meeting while getting fully paid.
If it transpires she is fired as an outcome of that meeting, then she has grounds for unfair dismissal on grounds of pre-determined outcome of meeting and failure to ensure fair procedure was followed.
Document EVERYTHING (dates, times, as verbatim as possible) that is said/written, she can record the meeting without informing any other meeting members for absolute transparency and her own protection of what is discussed under single party consent laws here. Also get as much as possible by email/letter as written documented proof is handy to have. Practice with the hidden recording to ensure you get volumes and such right.
Then speak to a solicitor after that.0 -
Your friend should look at taking carers leave/parental right now rather than sick leave. She would normally be entitled to this as part of her contract (force majeure etc).0
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Your friend should look at taking carers leave/parental right now rather than sick leave. She would normally be entitled to this as part of her contract (force majeure etc).
Unfortunately none of these would help the ops friend, CL may not apply if the child is being cared for in Hospital, PL requires six weeks notice to employer and FM is max three days per year.
It would be a heartless employer who would not grant unpaid leave in these circumstances, but the op’s friend still has a problem if she wasn’t working/answering calls when she was scheduled to work.0 -
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I've tried to distill some of the information here.- Your friend works Tuesday's and Thursday's each week (off every Friday, Mon and Wed since Feb),
- She has been trying to work remotely 4 hours a day to cover her 20 hours a week,
- Her boss has said they can't get in contact with her when she's supposed to be working
- Work has notified her that they have concerns about some issues that they want to discuss in a meeting
- Her husband says that her PAYE says she has finished working with the company
- She notified her company on a Sunday that she can't attend work on the Monday
- She won't be able to attend work this week
To me, she is trying to work some kind of flexitime situation where she is doing what she thinks is enough to get by but this isn't suitable for the employer. At the risk of being extremely callous, I can see from the employers point of view how they could have a problem with the situation, they are paying someone to carry out their duties who isn't doing so, as they've allowed her work 2 days a week they clearly are understanding but unfortunately due to the current crisis situation I can see how they could want to re-look at the situation.
My advice would be in line with the others, take a full screen shot of the PAYE site and definitely have someone in the room with her when she goes for the meeting, I couldn't even start to imagine the stress which she is under so I can't see how she could think clearly nevermind deal with a disciplinary hearing.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 23144
Also, to add, the Op is not sick so how would she be able to go on sick leave? She might be extremely stressed and have an ill child but ringing in sick when she's not sick can't help her situation when she's facing a disciplinary hearing.0 -
I've tried to distill some of the information here.
- Your friend works Tuesday's and Thursday's each week (off every Friday, Mon and Wed since Feb),
- She has been trying to work remotely 4 hours a day to cover her 20 hours a week,
- Her boss has said they can't get in contact with her when she's supposed to be working
- Work has notified her that they have concerns about some issues that they want to discuss in a meeting
- Her husband says that her PAYE says she has finished working with the company
- She notified her company on a Sunday that she can't attend work on the Monday
- She won't be able to attend work this week
To me, she is trying to work some kind of flexitime situation where she is doing what she thinks is enough to get by but this isn't suitable for the employer. At the risk of being extremely callous, I can see from the employers point of view how they could have a problem with the situation, they are paying someone to carry out their duties who isn't doing so, as they've allowed her work 2 days a week they clearly are understanding but unfortunately due to the current crisis situation I can see how they could want to re-look at the situation.
My advice would be in line with the others, take a full screen shot of the PAYE site and definitely have someone in the room with her when she goes for the meeting, I couldn't even start to imagine the stress which she is under so I can't see how she could think clearly nevermind deal with a disciplinary hearing.
Thanks for the reply. Wanted to clear up that she was fully doing her work just evenings instead of mornings 3 days and her normal hours 2 days. She’s confused because she can stand by the fact that everything was done she never left anything outstanding and never went missing or unable to be contacted she always said what hours she couldn’t take calls. She was having issues with a new management person constantly trying to undermine her and look for problems that didn’t exist anything asked was there just overlooked by who has been trying to give her a hard time. Everything was fine till about 3 weeks ago she was warned by a colleague something was up and she did notice the frantic calls etc stopped then she was landed with that letter on Friday. She’s in a bad situation personally their family is in a nightmare situation & if they hadn’t suspended her she would probably be working away when her child is alsleep at night as she’s not sleeping anyway in the room she would be glad to have a distraction. To see the emotional state and fear she is in for her child and then this on top of it. She can’t confirm when she can attend a meeting she has stay put and has meetings with medical staff constantly. She wants to go and sort it out but she has to put her family first right now. I dropped in some supplies to reception today for her she came out to me for literally 5 mins all I wanted to do was hug her. She’s still to break the bad news of what’s to come to the rest of the family she is getting help and advice with that beforehand. I appreciate all the advice here because I don’t want to tell anyone except my own husband knows he’s stunned by it all. We both feel she deserves better.0 -
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Fresh air helps! wrote: »Thanks for the reply. Wanted to clear up that she was fully doing her work just evenings instead of mornings 3 days and her normal hours 2 days. She’s confused because she can stand by the fact that everything was done she never left anything outstanding and never went missing or unable to be contacted she always said what hours she couldn’t take calls. She was having issues with a new management person constantly trying to undermine her and look for problems that didn’t exist anything asked was there just overlooked by who has been trying to give her a hard time. Everything was fine till about 3 weeks ago she was warned by a colleague something was up and she did notice the frantic calls etc stopped then she was landed with that letter on Friday. She’s in a bad situation personally their family is in a nightmare situation & if they hadn’t suspended her she would probably be working away when her child is alsleep at night as she’s not sleeping anyway in the room she would be glad to have a distraction. To see the emotional state and fear she is in for her child and then this on top of it. She can’t confirm when she can attend a meeting she has stay put and has meetings with medical staff constantly. She wants to go and sort it out but she has to put her family first right now. I dropped in some supplies to reception today for her she came out to me for literally 5 mins all I wanted to do was hug her. She’s still to break the bad news of what’s to come to the rest of the family she is getting help and advice with that beforehand. I appreciate all the advice here because I don’t want to tell anyone except my own husband knows he’s stunned by it all. We both feel she deserves better.
She should apply for leave. Based on this, she sounds too unwell to work.
As others have said, document everything. Print screens and record everything. Create contemporaneous notes on previous events.
When she finally dies attend the disciplinary hearing, bring a union rep or someone with legal knowledge. They should record everything in note form. They can't speak but should provide her with advice. As this is a disciplinary issue and if she's been advised that this could lead to dismissal, she can bring a solicitor. Again, they won't be able to speak but can provide advice.
Don't mention the predetermined decision to remove her from the organisation. Keep that in the back pocket as 1. It's a trump card and 2. It may be an error by revenue.0 -
Apologies if I’ve just missed it - but did she tell her employer of her situation? Did she make an agreement with them to work her hours at varying times around when she could do so?
I’m afraid if she didn’t, traumatic as her situation is, then she is messing her employer around, and not being available when required to be.
If she hasn’t communicated properly with her employer, I can understand why they would be very very fed up with her. I know you’ve said she’d let them know when she wasn’t available - but unless she told them why, and reached an agreement with them, well it does come across really badly on her part.
Of course I have every sympathy re her situation, but has she fully engaged with her employer?0 -
I find it very unlikely that she hasn't communicated or engaged with her employer. What kind of person sends 70 emails over a weekend? That's extreme behaviour even under normal circumstances.0
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Ok being very blunt here.
It sounds like your friend has not told her workplace about the full gravity of the situation at home. Whilst I understand it’s personal, in general employers are understanding, but not if they are blind sided which this sounds like happened here.
Now onto your friend, she needs some space and time out. She has tried to do what she thought was right by everyone and we can see where this has landed for her. She needs to get some time off, sick leave from GP and settle a bit. The last thing she needs right now is a HR investigation, believe me even when you are in the right with witnesses to back your story, they treat you like you’re a criminal. She doesn’t want it need that on top of her situation.
Screenshot the paye stuff, many companies ceased employees on lay-off for covid19, they could say it was a mistake, but it’s there on her revenue record now for all time so she has that.
Above all family and her well being comes first, not a job. She needs to take some time out and worry about work when she’s in a better place.0 -
Thanks for all your replies been so helpful. She decided to resign as she was asked by her child’s medical team is there any chance she could perhaps give up work for a year as things are bad now and it will take months for any positive changes and if/when the recovery period begins and it’s gets to the discharged from hospital stage she has to be at home full time. She also needs to do this for all her kids as they need their mum and it’s so hard on them to she is jumping between hospital and home each day to make sure she is with everyone. Her employer is refusing to accept her resignation and insisting they meet she asked could they actually tell her the issues and email her what they need and she will respond. Refused that. She’s very little help if there was no covid her parents and siblings could do more and her husband has taken this so badly he is struggling to be of any great assistance hopefully this will change as doctors have noticed it and are speaking with him as like us all, they are concerned long term if my friend can keep going she needs proper breaks. He is also working though as she said someone has to keep the bills paid. She wants to apply for a social welfare payment but can’t with this while suspended thing.0
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An employer can't just refuse a resignation. They can insist on you working your notice or you can lose pay in lieu of those weeks but they can't physically force her into work.
Given the current circumstances she could refuse to cooperate with the disciplinary investigation. Not advisable but it is an option.
In relation to being suspended, she can claim social welfare if she has resigned her position. She should drop into her local office and explain it to them. Failing that, she should call to the community welfare officer.0 -
An employer can't just refuse a resignation. They can insist on you working your notice or you can lose pay in lieu of those weeks but they can't physically force her into work.
Given the current circumstances she could refuse to cooperate with the disciplinary investigation. Not advisable but it is an option.
In relation to being suspended, she can claim social welfare if she has resigned her position. She should drop into her local office and explain it to them. Failing that, she should call to the community welfare officer.
Thank you for that we were both under the impression someone has to be fired to claim social welfare but she was also informed about carers allowance and to look into it. She wants to respond to the suspension investigation and has offered to by email and also gave adequate notice and offered to help with any queries. They said they can’t accept her resignation. A colleague has told her she’s already been replaced anyway but at the same time they don’t want to get involved. The person that replaced her is related to management!. How can she be clearer that she wants to assist and close this investigation yet returning to work is not an option for her and she doesn’t have any free time to meet with them nor is she fit in my opinion she’s too distracted and stressed out.0 -
As whampiri said, the employer cannot refuse a resignation if investigation going on or not. They literally have no leg to stand on here, nor does your friend owe they any further contact or explanation. As long as the resignation is put in writing then she has done her bit.
It is possible they maybe concerned about your friend resigning as "constructive dismissal" considering someone else has said your friend replaced by a family member of her boss. That alone is grounds anyways to walk away as the meeting would not be fair or impartial as a someone close to the boss has been hired as a replacement and previously that she has been "exited" on tax site.
If she can get in email or writing about her replacement already there is much stronger grounds for constructive dismissal. Very easy to argue the circumstances as follows.
1. Personal issue at home, work didnt want to help/support when most needed
2. offered other options to continue doing work and was rejected.
3. exited before disciplinary meeting on tax website
4. replaced by friend/family of boss already
5. refusing to accept resignation with aggrevating factor that meeting would be unfair and not impartial due to bosses actions and thus no longer wish to continue with any meeting with company.
I would strongly document/record any of these things while reinforcing the fact your friend is resigning due to personal circumstances and undue stress work is placing on her and that there will be no further discussion.
Then seek a solicitor on her downtime looking after her children.0 -
Sour Lemonz wrote: »As whampiri said, the employer cannot refuse a resignation if investigation going on or not. They literally have no leg to stand on here, nor does your friend owe they any further contact or explanation. As long as the resignation is put in writing then she has done her bit.
It is possible they maybe concerned about your friend resigning as "constructive dismissal" considering someone else has said your friend replaced by a family member of her boss. That alone is grounds anyways to walk away as the meeting would not be fair or impartial as a someone close to the boss has been hired as a replacement and previously that she has been "exited" on tax site.
If she can get in email or writing about her replacement already there is much stronger grounds for constructive dismissal. Very easy to argue the circumstances as follows.
1. Personal issue at home, work didnt want to help/support when most needed
2. offered other options to continue doing work and was rejected.
3. exited before disciplinary meeting on tax website
4. replaced by friend/family of boss already
5. refusing to accept resignation with aggrevating factor that meeting would be unfair and not impartial due to bosses actions and thus no longer wish to continue with any meeting with company.
I would strongly document/record any of these things while reinforcing the fact your friend is resigning due to personal circumstances and undue stress work is placing on her and that there will be no further discussion.
Then seek a solicitor on her downtime looking after her children.
To claim CD, isn’t it important to exhaust your employers grievance procedures first?
1&2 aren’t really required of employers, 5 is presumptuous considering the op didn’t attend, employer may argue 4 was necessary because employee was incommunicado.
Ideally, the ops friend should have gone to the disciplinary, if possible, she may have had a stronger case afterwards if employer didn’t follow procedure.0 -
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To claim CD, isn’t it important to exhaust your employers grievance procedures first?.
Not necessarily, due to the fact the employer has already replaced the op's friend and written them off on tax website as no longer employed, it can be shown that any engagement would be unfair and lacking impartiality.
If it was the case these things didnt exist then it would be alot harder to prove constructive dismissal, however when factored in with the personal pressures op's friend is under which have been communicated to the company and their lack of engagement would have a higher likelihood of going in friends favor.
However in saying this, consultation of a solicitor would determine the appropriate strength of this case at end of the day and thats what the op's friend needs to do. Either way they wont be staying at this company due to medical advice given so no harm exploring CD route as company not willing to make any sort of accommodation.0
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