Mr16 to gu10

pk10216 · 23-10-2017 9:34pm #1

Hi, I'm looking for some advice on replacing 15 halogen mr16 downlights with gu10 LEDs.
The more I read the more I seem to complicate the job. From my understanding I need to remove the old transformers and replace with the new gu10 connections and keep existing chrome fittings.

From what I can see mains wire is connected to junction box and then cabled to transformer. Do I just snip off the transformer and use something like the below? Is an earth connection required as I can see one on existing transformer connection?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B00XJ6UGZ6/ref=mp_s_a_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1508790361&sr=8-6&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=gu10+connector&dpPl=1&dpID=41V-Ki%2BLUEL&ref=plSrch

Stoner · 24-10-2017 12:32am

There's good info on the led sticky on this

pk10216 · 24-10-2017 9:16am

Stoner wrote: »

There's good info on the led sticky on this

Thanks I had a good read through the sticky, but can't see anyone giving an exact guide as to the procedure.

From the pic attached, I take it I snip off the transformer and then connect the live & neutral
earth to the new gu10 terminal bloc back to the existing grey terminal block?

Risteard81 · 24-10-2017 8:10pm

The existing wiring is unacceptable and needs sorted out. The sheath of the cable is designed to provide mechanical protection to the cable and therefore must enter the enclosure. Non-sheathed cables outside of an enclosure are considered to be potentially dangerous. Really there should also be strain relief, e.g. in the form of cord grips, cable clamps or glands, otherwise the cable and box both fixed rather than floating.

pk10216 · 24-10-2017 10:21pm

Risteard81 wrote: »

The existing wiring is unacceptable and needs sorted out. The sheath of the cable is designed to provide mechanical protection to the cable and therefore must enter the enclosure. Non-sheathed cables outside of an enclosure are considered to be potentially dangerous. Really there should also be strain relief, e.g. in the form of cord grips, cable clamps or glands, otherwise the cable and box both fixed rather than floating.

Not sure exactly what you mean here?

Are you saying the stripped part of the grey cable should not be exposed and should enter the junction box?

Could you link me to a pic of an example?

Tuco88 · 24-10-2017 11:05pm

Yes, no colours outside the box grey only. You would be better off getting a joint box with cable support as already stated. Hager do a nice white coffin type one, very tasty job can be got with screw or push in terminals.

25-10-2017 12:09pm

Risteard81 wrote: »

The existing wiring is unacceptable and needs sorted out. The sheath of the cable is designed to provide mechanical protection to the cable and therefore must enter the enclosure.

Strictly speaking you are correct but as the cables are above a ceiling I would think that the chances of mechanical damage are pretty remote and the chances of a PVC sheath preventing damages are even more remote. I agree that it is not perfect, but I think you are overstating the seriousness of this.

Really there should also be strain relief, e.g. in the form of cord grips, cable clamps or glands, otherwise the cable and box both fixed rather than floating.

Strain relief? There is no weight hanging from the cables exiting the JB.
Are you suggesting that glands should be used on a coffin type JB for a downlighter ?

Eireann81 · 25-10-2017 12:20pm

If it's of any help, I recently did a similar job in my kitchen. I've attached before and after photos if it helps.

For what it's worth, you can buy direct replacement bulbs (12v mr16 LEDs) that will fit into your existing light fittings, but if you want dimmable LEDs, you'll have to remove the transformers and go down the route of AC GU10s.

25-10-2017 12:22pm

^^^ looks good.

pk10216 · 25-10-2017 1:22pm

Eireann81 wrote: »

If it's of any help, I recently did a similar job in my kitchen. I've attached before and after photos if it helps.

For what it's worth, you can buy direct replacement bulbs (12v mr16 LEDs) that will fit into your existing light fittings, but if you want dimmable LEDs, you'll have to remove the transformers and go down the route of AC GU10s.

Looks like an easier option, the only problem is several of my existing transformers seem to be dead so I though might be just as well to make the change away from low voltage mr16.

I've ordered the gu10 connections and I'm going to fit them along with dimmable gu10 LEDs as the existing mr16 are dimmable and wife wants to keep this feature.

I'm going not going to mess about with the existing cabling as I'm going with 2011 as this makes sense, they are in the ceiling space so no weight on them or chance of being moved around.

I believe I also need to change the existing dimmer switches to new led compatibles ones, any recommend?

Risteard81 · 25-10-2017 2:21pm

pk10216 wrote: »

I'm going not going to mess about with the existing cabling as I'm going with 2011 as this makes sense, they are in the ceiling space so no weight on them or chance of being moved around.

The wiring does not comply with ET101 like that. Regardless of what 2011 believes it is not acceptable. Unless the wiring is fixed into place (e.g. clipped) and the box also secured so that movement is not possible then strain relief is required to protect the integrity of the connections. The sheath is also essential as you are not using a contained wiring system e.g. singles in conduit and trunking.

These would be adversely coded observations if I was carrying out a periodic inspection of the installation.

As for dimmer switches, without knowing the exact type and make of the lamps etc. no-one can advise. It is certainly not a one-size-fits-all situation when dimming LEDs.

25-10-2017 3:21pm

pk10216 wrote: »

I believe I also need to change the existing dimmer switches to new led compatibles ones, any recommend?

Trailing edge.

25-10-2017 4:39pm

Risteard81 wrote: »

Regardless of what 2011 believes it is not acceptable.

As above, I believe that you are overstating the risk and how serious a breach of the regulations this really is. In the real world there are far more serious breaches of ET101 in domestic installations up and down the country. That doesn’t make this right, it is just that this should be taken in context of the bigger picture.

I still can’t see why the cables would be under any strain, perhaps you can enlighten us?

pk10216 · 25-10-2017 6:42pm

Going with these Gu10 leds from Amazon. Seem decent enough and well reviewed.

The dimmer I'm looking is below. Someone more knowledge might confirm its OK?

I've done screenshot as links dont seem paste

25-10-2017 9:33pm

Those Amazon leds look garbage "Colour Rendering Index (CRI) 80" that's the lowest marketable level. Hollow looking light with an absence of red and warmth.
Tends to make everything a blueish hue and sickly. Ikea jobs are far superior.

The dimmer is the best you'll get for leds, doesn't work great with some Philips GU10 but I find them excellent with Ikea. I have a few philips pendants and those Varilights work fine with those. So don't know what's going on there I fixed the kitchen GU10s with a single 30W incandescent load lamp in the set.

To make the screenshots appear "copy link location" of uploaded image then "insert image" of the link you just copied.

Bruthal · 25-10-2017 9:36pm

Risteard81 wrote: »

The wiring does not comply with ET101 like that. Regardless of what 2011 believes it is not acceptable. Unless the wiring is fixed into place (e.g. clipped) and the box also secured so that movement is not possible then strain relief is required to protect the integrity of the connections.

Any explanation of how movement of these boxes is going to happen?

And how strain of the connections is going to happen?

Two mice having a tug of war with a cable each is it?

25-10-2017 10:27pm

Risteard81 · 26-10-2017 1:04am

Bruthal wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote: »

The wiring does not comply with ET101 like that. Regardless of what 2011 believes it is not acceptable. Unless the wiring is fixed into place (e.g. clipped) and the box also secured so that movement is not possible then strain relief is required to protect the integrity of the connections.

Any explanation of how movement of these boxes is going to happen?

And how strain of the connections is going to happen?

Two mice having a tug of war with a cable each is it?

For a start when you remove the downlight as has just happened. The fact remains that it is required. If you have no regard for the National Wiring Rules then why don't you just say so.

26-10-2017 6:42am

Risteard81 wrote: »

For a start when you remove the downlight as has just happened.

Clearly this is a work in progress, we all know it is not going to be left that way.
If the grey cable sheath were to enter the JB this would not provide any strain relief, lets not suggest it would. There was more weight in your mechanical protection argument.

The fact remains that it is required.

A red herring, as this was never disputed.

If you have no regard for the National Wiring Rules then why don't you just say so.

That is a bit of a leap.
It is important for us (people working in the industry) to understand the logic behind the rules rather than blindly following them.

Peppa Cig · 26-10-2017 7:02am

pk10216 wrote: »

Going with these Gu10 leds from Amazon. Seem decent enough and well reviewed.

The dimmer I'm looking is below. Someone more knowledge might confirm its OK?

I've done screenshot as links dont seem paste

Those LED don’t look great.

Go with Philipps. I have them and they are a great halogen equivalent replacement.

These are the 50w equivalent. Also available in 35w equivalent. Nice warm halogen type light from them.

Philips LED Classic 5.5 W GU10 Glass Dimmable Spot Light (Replacement for 50 W Halogen Spot) - Warm White, Pack of 6 https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01KHILBSE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_UMx8zbJE9GYTX

pk10216 · 26-10-2017 10:01am

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Those Amazon leds look garbage "Colour Rendering Index (CRI) 80" that's the lowest marketable level. Hollow looking light with an absence of red and warmth.
Tends to make everything a blueish hue and sickly. Ikea jobs are far superior.

The dimmer is the best you'll get for leds, doesn't work great with some Philips GU10 but I find them excellent with Ikea. I have a few philips pendants and those Varilights work fine with those. So don't know what's going on there I fixed the kitchen GU10s with a single 30W incandescent load lamp in the set.

To make the screenshots appear "copy link location" of uploaded image then "insert image" of the link you just copied.

Thanks for the heads up on the Amazon bulbs, if they are crap they will be going back.

IKEA dont deliver as far as I know? and I'm down the country so I'll have to look for an alternative that wont break the bank.

exaisle · 26-10-2017 11:54am

pk10216 wrote: »

Thanks for the heads up on the Amazon bulbs, if they are crap they will be going back.

IKEA dont deliver as far as I know? and I'm down the country so I'll have to look for an alternative that wont break the bank.

I'd go with the ikea GU10's too. I've a good few at home and they're nicely priced too.

When you say "down the country"...how far?

Bruthal · 26-10-2017 1:57pm

Risteard81 wrote: »

. If you have no regard for the National Wiring Rules then why don't you just say so.

If I ask how someone driving at 100mph is at risk of crashing, it does not mean I drive at 100mph.

Alkers · 16-10-2019 5:04pm

pk10216 wrote: »

Hi, I'm looking for some advice on replacing 15 halogen mr16 downlights with gu10 LEDs.
The more I read the more I seem to complicate the job. From my understanding I need to remove the old transformers and replace with the new gu10 connections and keep existing chrome fittings.

From what I can see mains wire is connected to junction box and then cabled to transformer. Do I just snip off the transformer and use something like the below? Is an earth connection required as I can see one on existing transformer connection?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B00XJ6UGZ6/ref=mp_s_a_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1508790361&sr=8-6&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=gu10+connector&dpPl=1&dpID=41V-Ki%2BLUEL&ref=plSrch

Digging up the old thread but how did you get on with this? I want to do the exact same thing at my parents house, did you go ahead with the connectors from amazon? Any issues?

Risteard81 · 17-10-2019 6:26am

2011 wrote: »

Clearly this is a work in progress, we all know it is not going to be left that way.
If the grey cable sheath were to enter the JB this would not provide any strain relief, lets not suggest it would. There was more weight in your mechanical protection argument.

Both are requirements.

Cable ties could be used inside the JB to help with mechanical protection. Even better would be to use decent quality JBs such as the Hager ones which have cord grips. I wouldn't promote jobs being done poorly.

17-10-2019 7:10am

Risteard81 wrote: »

Both are requirements.

Cable ties could be used inside the JB to help with mechanical protection. Even better would be to use decent quality JBs such as the Hager ones which have cord grips.

Strictly speaking you are correct but as the cables are above a ceiling I would think that the chances of mechanical damage are pretty remote and the chances of a PVC sheath preventing damages are even more remote. I agree that it is not perfect, but I think you are overstating the seriousness of this.

I think I would give that cable tie idea of yours a miss if I were you....

I wouldn't promote jobs being done poorly.

Perish the thought :cool:

Risteard81 · 17-10-2019 9:35am

2011 wrote: »

I think I would give that cable tie idea of yours a miss if I were you....

As I stated my overwhelming preference would be for good junction boxes e.g. the Hager Ashley J803/J804/J501s.

17-10-2019 9:59am

Risteard81 wrote: »

As I stated my overwhelming preference would be for good junction boxes e.g. the Hager Ashley J803/J804/J501s.

You sure did.
This is much more sensible than the cable ties idea

dathi · 17-10-2019 10:03am

and dont forget you have to comply with part B of the building regs requiring 30min fire rating in the ceiling so they should either have a fire hood installed or be fire rated down lights

pk10216 · 20-10-2019 8:40am

Alkers wrote: »

Digging up the old thread but how did you get on with this? I want to do the exact same thing at my parents house, did you go ahead with the connectors from amazon? Any issues?

Yes, I used the Amazon connections. Very easy job in the end, great success. The old mr16 bulbs would blow constantly and was always replacing them.

Mr16 to gu10

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