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EV Charger Install

  • 07-03-2017 2:10pm
    #1
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭


    Can anyone point me in the right direction as to what I need with regards to a Priority Switch? I am getting an EV (electric car) this week in the UK and will do a dry install of the home charge point and priority switch.

    I have an electric shower and I want to give priority to the shower if the EV is on charge. It will be a Nissan Leaf 6.6kw OBC plugging in.

    The charger I am ordering is the EV Multi-Mode J1772 type 1 tethered cable 5m (32Amp 7.2kw)

    The Priority Switching Board sold at carcharger.ie seems a bit expensive. What can I get to do what I need? Electrician will be hooking up the juice, but I want to have everything in place to cut down on the install cost.


«1

Comments

  • #2
    Risteard81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    goz83 wrote: »
    Electrician will be hooking up the juice, but I want to have everything in place to cut down on the install cost.
    The REC has to do the install - not just connect it up.


  • #3
    Luckysasha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Luckysasha


    Well lad. You could try and price the priority board in any electrical wholesalers. It's more or less the same type that would be used if you had two electric showers installed. Might be worth getting a registered electrician to have a look at the whole job before you commit to buying anything. There could be conflict with any other big loads in the house that would have to be taken in to consideration i.e.: electric oven, water heaters etc.
    I would be hesitant about installing anything until your electrician has a look again he might foresee problems with where you want to mount the equipment etc. A quick chat with him now could save you a lot of hassle later


  • #4
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    Luckysasha wrote: »
    Well lad. You could try and price the priority board in any electrical wholesalers. It's more or less the same type that would be used if you had two electric showers installed. Might be worth getting a registered electrician to have a look at the whole job before you commit to buying anything. There could be conflict with any other big loads in the house that would have to be taken in to consideration i.e.: electric oven, water heaters etc.
    I would be hesitant about installing anything until your electrician has a look again he might foresee problems with where you want to mount the equipment etc. A quick chat with him now could save you a lot of hassle later

    Actually, I will likely be getting an electric oven installed (currently use gas) so it's not a bad idea to get it looked at first.

    The charge point needs to be got though. Wouldn't want to be relying on the public network.


  • #5
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    goz83 wrote: »
    but I want to have everything in place to cut down on the install cost.

    I remember when I was an electrical contractor. Some customers would buy materials to "cut down on the install cost". Generally they were charged more (because they bought in lower quantities in the wrong wholesaler) for lower quality materials (because they were not familiar with the materials). They also had to ay the higher rate of VAT whereas frequently I could have charged them the lower rate.

    The install cost = materials cost + labour cost

    The labour cost will not change just because materials are supplied, unless lower quality materials result in the install taking longer :)

    Edit: It looks like the Priority Switching Board uses cheap and nasty Garo components.
    I'm not a fan of Garo, I wouldn't use these components if I got a present of them.


  • #6
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    2011 wrote: »
    I remember when I was an electrical contractor. Some customers would buy materials to "cut down on the install cost". Generally they were charged more (because they bought in lower quantities in the wrong wholesaler) for lower quality materials (because they were not familiar with the materials). They also had to ay the higher rate of VAT whereas frequently I could have charged them the lower rate.

    The install cost = materials cost + labour cost

    The labour cost will not change just because materials are supplied, unless lower quality materials result in the install taking longer :)

    Edit: It looks like the Priority Switching Board uses cheap and nasty Garo components.
    I'm not a fan of Garo, I wouldn't use these components if I got a present of them.

    I always try to source and supply materials for anything I am getting done, from bathroom tiles, to car parts. Most trades people I have dealt with appreciate this and only once has it ever caused a problem, because the wrong part arrived, rather than me ordering the wrong part. I'm not looking to get cheap materials, I am looking to get the right ones. There are a couple of electricians in the extended family, so i'm sure i'll be looked after with regards to the install.

    My plan is to:

    1) Research what I need.
    2) Source the needed materials.
    3) Confirm with electrician that what I have sourced is what is OK before buying.
    4) Supply and dry install the materials.
    5) Have electrician check the work before making any connections.

    Anyone with a half brain could run the wiring and install the charger and priority switch. I just wouldn't touch the fuse board and would leave the work to the electrician.

    The charger itself is a Rolec and is considered high quality stuff.
    Thanks for the heads up on the Garo switch. Can you recommend a good one? I want to have good quality equipment installed.


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  • #7
    alan4cult
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭alan4cult


    Hi OP,

    You can achieve what you want to do by using two 63A contactors. Make sure these are double pole contactors, one with two normally open contacts and the other with normally closed contacts.

    This is all a prority relay is. You will save a lot of money not buying those fancy shower boards.

    Just make sure you use double pole contactors or you could end up with a wrong side failure, which is what caused the Clapham Junction rail accident years ago.

    Always be careful wiring relays, they may work, but you need to check the failsafes in event of power loss. Check with an electrician.


  • #8
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    So I just had an ESB electrician in to install a dual rate meter. I explained what I was wanting to do and he checked my fuseboard. He said there will be no issue running the shower and electric oven but priority will need to be given to the shower over the car charge point.

    I'll buy and dry install the charge point, but I may leave the priority switch end to the electrician. Thanks all.


  • #9
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    goz83 wrote: »
    2) Source the needed materials.

    I can't understand why, you will most likely pay a higher net price and higher VAT rate for the materials that you purchase.
    It's your call.
    4) Supply and dry install the materials.
    5) Have electrician check the work before making any connections.

    Remember REC's (Registered Electrical Contractors) are not permitted to certify other people's work. Technically this is what you are asking them to do, I imagine that RECI / CER would take a dim view of this as this is not considered "minor electrical works". What you may be able to do is work with the electrician, but many are reluctant to agree to this. If you can find an electrician that will allow this fair enough.
    Anyone with a half brain could run the wiring and install the charger and priority switch.

    You may think so but in my experience DIY work can be horrendous.
    I have seen mains voltage lights wired in alarm cable with melted insulation dripping off like wax from a candle.

    Have you electrical qualifications / training or experience that you plan to use to convince the REC to certify your work?
    Thanks for the heads up on the Garo switch. Can you recommend a good one? I want to have good quality equipment installed.

    I like ABB, GE and Hager myself. I found that Garo devices frequently have terminals and enclosures that are too small and screws and bolts that deform like chocolate when tightened.

    If it was my home I would like to have the priority switch, RCD / RCBO, MCB etc... all installed in the main distribution board. I think it is a neater solution than having a second sub-board. However this may mean replacing the existing distribution board which may be costly. Sometimes it is possible to install an additional and identical distribution board enclosure up against the existing board providing a neat and cost effective solution.


  • #10
    Luckysasha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Luckysasha


    I have to agree with the mod on this one. Making a statement like " anyone with half a brain could run the wiring and install the charger and priority switch " is a bit demeaning to a tradesman who spent 4 years learning his trade. You would be amazed at the type of issues electricians have come across from house holders trying to be helpful. I'm not saying your not able to do the job but in the eyes of the law your forbidden from carrying out this work. I had a case recently where I refused to put a new supply in to a house because I noticed an outside socket directly under an overflowing gutter. When I made further enquiries about why the electrician would put the socket there and fill in the cert to say everything was ok we subsequently found out the householder actually installed the socket himself after the cert had gone in but before we arrived to put in the connection. Talking to the electrician since he was telling me the householder forgot to say it to him about putting in the socket so he taught it would be cheaper to do it himself. Socket was relocated and whole installation had to be recertified. You can guess how much that cost.


  • #11
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    2011 wrote: »
    I can't understand why, you will most likely pay a higher net price and higher VAT rate for the materials that you purchase.
    It's your call.

    I have ordered the charger from the UK, which cost me less than the EX VAT price of the same unit selling here. Full UK price was circa €515 inc VAT and delivery. Irish price was €549 ex VAT ex delivery.
    2011 wrote: »
    Remember REC's (Registered Electrical Contractors) are not permitted to certify other people's work. Technically this is what you are asking them to do, I imagine that RECI / CER would take a dim view of this as this is not considered "minor electrical works". What you may be able to do is work with the electrician, but many are reluctant to agree to this. If you can find an electrician that will allow this fair enough.

    I don't see it as being much different from installing an outside socket. I prefer doing the dry work, because it will likely be neater than most electricians. I don't see how I am infringing on the regs if I am only mounting the charger and running some cable along the wall. All the electrical connections are being left to an electrician.
    2011 wrote: »
    You may think so but in my experience DIY work can be horrendous.
    I have seen mains voltage lights wired in alarm cable with melted insulation dripping off like wax from a candle.

    Have you electrical qualifications / training or experience that you plan to use to convince the REC to certify your work?

    I don't doubt that there are some god awful jobs that have been done, as I have seen many myself. I would only do what I am fully confident in doing, which is to dry install the equipment.

    Soon the regs will stop us from changing light bulbs!
    2011 wrote: »
    I like ABB, GE and Hager myself. I found that Garo devices frequently have terminals and enclosures that are too small and screws and bolts that deform like chocolate when tightened.

    Cheers. Garo is out then
    2011 wrote: »
    If it was my home I would like to have the priority switch, RCD / RCBO, MCB etc... all installed in the main distribution board. I think it is a neater solution than having a second sub-board. However this may mean replacing the existing distribution board which may be costly. Sometimes it is possible to install an additional and identical distribution board enclosure up against the existing board providing a neat and cost effective solution.

    I think there is plenty of space to get it into the main fuse board.
    Luckysasha wrote: »
    I have to agree with the mod on this one. Making a statement like " anyone with half a brain could run the wiring and install the charger and priority switch " is a bit demeaning to a tradesman who spent 4 years learning his trade. You would be amazed at the type of issues electricians have come across from house holders trying to be helpful. I'm not saying your not able to do the job but in the eyes of the law your forbidden from carrying out this work. I had a case recently where I refused to put a new supply in to a house because I noticed an outside socket directly under an overflowing gutter. When I made further enquiries about why the electrician would put the socket there and fill in the cert to say everything was ok we subsequently found out the householder actually installed the socket himself after the cert had gone in but before we arrived to put in the connection. Talking to the electrician since he was telling me the householder forgot to say it to him about putting in the socket so he taught it would be cheaper to do it himself. Socket was relocated and whole installation had to be recertified. You can guess how much that cost.

    I wasn't suggesting that electricians only need half a brain :p

    So you're an electrician LuckySasha. I'll give you a shot of the semi in courtlough if you sort out the install for me :cool:


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  • #12
    Luckysasha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Luckysasha


    Actually in the market for a shotgun at the moment.�� Courtlough have some nice A400s on their site I feel the urge for a road trip might even take the 87T with me ��


  • #13
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    goz83 wrote: »
    I have ordered the charger from the UK, which cost me less than the EX VAT price of the same unit selling here. Full UK price was circa €515 inc VAT and delivery. Irish price was €549 ex VAT ex delivery.

    Nice, however the Irish price is always less to those in the trade.
    Failing that the REC could simply buy it in the UK and your advantage no longer exists. But if you want to buy it yourself, go ahead.

    I don't see it as being much different from installing an outside socket.

    Technically it is quite different.

    Besides the law sees it quite differently, have a read of this. Adding an additional socket falls under the legal definition of "minor electrical works", so legally you are permitted to do this. Adding another circuit has a very different legal definition as such can only be carried out by a REC.
    Don't forget, REC's care about the law and doing what you suggest exposes their business to risk. Remember they are not exactly struggling to find work either.

    Have you electrical qualifications / training or experience that you plan to use to convince the REC to certify your work?


  • #14
    Tuco88
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭Tuco88


    alan4cult wrote: »
    Hi OP,

    You can achieve what you want to do by using two 63A contactors. Make sure these are double pole contactors, one with two normally open contacts and the other with normally closed contacts.

    This is all a prority relay is. You will save a lot of money not buying those fancy shower boards.

    Just make sure you use double pole contactors or you could end up with a wrong side failure, which is what caused the Clapham Junction rail accident years ago.

    Always be careful wiring relays, they may work, but you need to check the failsafes in event of power loss. Check with an electrician.

    Why 2 contactors? Wouldn't one 4 pole do with 2 n/o and 2 n/c place the shower on the n/o and use a switch or current sensing relay to switch the contactor coil. It should fit into D.B without the need of another inclosure?


  • #15
    Risteard81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    goz83 wrote: »
    Anyone with a half brain could run the wiring and install the charger and priority switch.
    How is the Electrician supposed to verify what you have done after you have already done it though? I, for one, would refuse to certify it without ripping it out and starting again.


  • #16
    alan4cult
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭alan4cult


    Tuco88 wrote: »
    Why 2 contactors? Wouldn't one 4 pole do with 2 n/o and 2 n/c place the shower on the n/o and use a switch or current sensing relay to switch the contactor coil. It should fit into D.B without the need of another inclosure?

    I guess yes, but a 4 pole contactor would it be more expensive than the priority boards? Just googled a 2NO 2NC at 40 amps and getting €140 approx.


  • #17
    Tuco88
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭Tuco88


    alan4cult wrote: »
    Tuco88 wrote: »
    Why 2 contactors? Wouldn't one 4 pole do with 2 n/o and 2 n/c place the shower on the n/o and use a switch or current sensing relay to switch the contactor coil. It should fit into D.B without the need of another inclosure?

    I guess yes, but a 4 pole contactor would it be more expensive than the priority boards? Just googled a 2NO 2NC at 40 amps and getting €140 approx.

    Fair point, I'd have never guessed that price..


  • #18
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    2011 wrote: »
    Nice, however the Irish price is always less to those in the trade.
    Failing that the REC could simply buy it in the UK and your advantage no longer exists. But if you want to buy it yourself, go ahead.

    Not by that much. In this case, the UK price is far lower and would be tough to beat. Importing the equipment would be a hassle and a delay for them.

    What about the Electricians margin on supplied equipment? I reckon I still hold the advantage price wise and even if I don't, by ordering the equipment myself, I know what I am getting. I also realise that I lose the advantage of blaming the electrician if something happens with equipment he supplied, but it's getting into split hairs and the unknown now. I have picked quality equipment to avoid that scenario.
    2011 wrote: »
    Technically it is quite different.

    Not as I intend to install. See full explanation below.
    2011 wrote: »
    Besides the law sees it quite differently, have a read of this. Adding an additional socket falls under the legal definition of "minor electrical works", so legally you are permitted to do this. Adding another circuit has a very different legal definition as such can only be carried out by a REC.
    Don't forget, REC's care about the law and doing what you suggest exposes their business to risk. Remember they are not exactly struggling to find work either.

    A skim read of the first couple of pages, I see "complete" mentioned a couple of times. As I will not be completing the work, I believe I am comfortably inside the boundaries of the law. I'm not ignorant enough to complete the work myself, even though I know I could manage it.
    2011 wrote: »
    Have you electrical qualifications / training or experience that you plan to use to convince the REC to certify your work?

    I have worked in building and for a short time, I had my own building/maintenance company. I have done many dry installations of electrical work and left the final bits to the electricians on new installations. I won't need any certs to show, because I will be drafting in a family member, or friend in the business to make the connections and do the priority switch.
    Risteard81 wrote: »
    How is the Electrician supposed to verify what you have done after you have already done it though? I, for one, would refuse to certify it without ripping it out and starting again.

    Quite easily actually. The electrician will be able to see the work. I thought I had got this across already, but let me clarify.

    I will supply:

    1 x Rolec Charge Point.
    1 x Length of cable

    *I will then mount then mount the Rolec Charge Point on the wall.
    *I will cut an appropriate length of cable to comfortably reach from the Board to the Rolec Charge Point.
    *I will drill 2 holes through 2 walls to feed the cable from the Board to the Rolec Charge Point.
    *I will feed the cable through said holes and leave them unconnected from either point.

    Electrician will see clearly the work that has been done and can then proceed to complete the work. He may need to remove the Rolec Charge Point from the wall (I don't know where the cable feeds into the Rolec Charge Point), but the mounting work will have already been done, saving the electrician the time of marking, drilling and mounting the Rolec Charge Point. The electrician will also have to supply and install the priority switch, giving the electric shower priority.

    Finally, planning ahead, I will have the electrician install another fuse in preparation for an electric oven I will be having installed in a few months when the kitchen is getting done.

    I can't be any clearer than that.


  • #19
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    goz83 wrote: »
    A skim read of the first couple of pages, I see "complete" mentioned a couple of times.

    As stated above RECs are not permitted to complete work carried out by others.
    I won't need any certs to show, because I will be drafting in a family member, or friend in the business to make the connections and do the priority switch.

    Is the family member a REC? This work should be certified, it can only be certified by a REC.
    As I will not be completing the work, I believe I am comfortably inside the boundaries of the law.

    If uncertified you have not complied with the law, end of.

    I am not here to police this. If you want to do this yourself and you can find an electrician to connect it up, its your call. I really don't mind.
    1 x Length of cable

    Out of interest, what size and type of cable?


  • #20
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    2011 wrote: »
    As stated above RECs are not permitted to complete work carried out by others.

    Can you tell me where this is stated in the document? I cannot find anything that says RECs are not permitted to complete work carried out by others.

    What I have found is

    This means that it will be illegal for an electrical contractor that is not registered with a Safety Supervisory Body (SSB) to complete domestic electrical work

    But I would not be completing the work, the electrician would be. I would be starting it, not completing it.
    2011 wrote: »
    Is the family member a REC? This work should be certified, it can only be certified by a REC.

    Yes.
    2011 wrote: »
    If uncertified you have not complied with the law, end of.

    I am not here to police this. If you want to do this yourself and you can find an electrician to connect it up, its your call. I really don't mind.

    I will carry out no work at all if it is illegal to do so.
    2011 wrote: »
    Out of interest, what size and type of cable?

    I believe the 10 Sq mm twin & earth cable is the right tool for the job, but will double check. The cable might run about 1 metre outside, so I will have to look into armoured cable for that short run unless the charger is going on the front of the house.


  • #21
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    goz83 wrote: »
    Can you tell me where this is stated in the document? I cannot find anything that says RECs are not permitted to complete work carried out by others

    RECI definitely won't permit this and I'm pretty sure CER won't allow this either. We ban such requests in the forum charter for this reason (which predates this thread).

    The last section of this HSA link summarizes the situation quite well:

    http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Topics/Electricity/Inspection_and_Testing/Works_Needing_Certification/

    I believe the 10 Sq mm twin & earth cable is the right tool for the job, but will double check. The cable might run about 1 metre outside, so I will have to look into armoured cable for that short run unless the charger is going on the front of the house.

    A T & E is not UV resistant and it would be difficult to to find a suitable gland. I would prefer an SWA with an IP rated gland. Bottom entry is best from an IP perspective. A 10 sq. should be more than enough (bang goes the saving money by supplying your own materials).

    There are a few tricks to installing a cable like this neatly depending on the type of wall. For example in my house it is possible to run a cable like this between the warm board and the outside wall. It may be possible to gland into the back of the charge unit so that no cable will be usable outside. A DIY guy may miss things like that and end up with a less professional install. Perhaps you don't care and would rather feel that you saved money. Many RECs buy cable in large quantities and would even have an off cut that length. You will pay full list price. Experience also teaches you what makes of glands work best, I generally used Hawke glands. The threads on poor quality glands tend to fail when tightened.

    Anyway as your relation is a REC you will be guided through this. I suggest that you get him write out the list of parts for you so that you can buy quality components. This will avoid him adding on a percentage just for supplying you with the materials.


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  • #22
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    2011 wrote: »
    RECI definitely won't permit this and I'm pretty sure CER won't allow this either. We ban such requests in the forum charter for this reason (which predates this thread).

    The last section of this HSA link summarizes the situation quite well:

    http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Topics/Electricity/Inspection_and_Testing/Works_Needing_Certification/




    A T & E is not UV resistant and it would be difficult to to find a suitable gland. I would prefer an SWA with an IP rated gland. Bottom entry is best from an IP perspective. A 10 sq. should be more than enough (bang goes the saving money by supplying your own materials).

    There are a few tricks to installing a cable like this neatly depending on the type of wall. For example in my house it is possible to run a cable like this between the warm board and the outside wall. It may be possible to gland into the back of the charge unit so that no cable will be usable outside. A DIY guy may miss things like that and end up with a less professional install. Perhaps you don't care and would rather feel that you saved money. Many RECs buy cable in large quantities and would even have an off cut that length. You will pay full list price. Experience also teaches you what makes of glands work best, I generally used Hawke glands. The threads on poor quality glands tend to fail when tightened.

    Anyway as your relation is a REC you will be guided through this. I suggest that you get him write out the list of parts for you so that you can buy quality components. This will avoid him adding on a percentage just for supplying you with the materials.

    Hmmmm. The Domestic Environments part covers it then. I suppose I will just supply the Charger and let the electrician do the rest, as I am sure he will have the other bits handy enough without any waiting around.

    The wiring itself would have been completely concealed in a couple of months. I was going to run it along the side of the house, which is enclosed (the side entrance). I have plans to insulate the external wall, which would have covered the wiring very nicely. UV resistance wouldn't have been an issue. I was going to run it through some ducting, just incase I wanted to upgrade the wiring later (not likely) or run other wires through, like my CCTV wiring. The only part I was unsure about, was the exact mounting location of the charger unit.

    Cheers for the input.


  • #23
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    goz83 wrote: »
    UV resistance wouldn't have been an issue.

    If any part of the T & E is exposed to sunlight the insulation will turn white, crack and disintegrate over time.
    Somehow the cable has to enter the charging unit, not impossible to do with a T & E, but requires a bit of thought if you want it shielded from UV and maintain the IP rating.
    One option would be to use a flexible conduit such as Copex.
    Generally cables are glanded into the base of a unit like this as it reduces the chances of ingress of moisture.
    T & E cables are oval shaped and most IP rated glands are not compatible with any cable that is not round.
    I was going to run it through some ducting, just incase I wanted to upgrade the wiring later (not likely) or run other wires through, like my CCTV wiring.

    It can be very difficult to pull a replacement cable though a duct if there are bends in it. If your initial cable is a 10 sq. (as you suggested) an upgraded cabe will be at leas a 16 sq.
    Pulling one of these through could easily damage the more delicate CCTV cables (most likely they are CAT5E or CAT6). Because of this I would suggest that you install the larger sized cable now.
    Upgrading at a later date will cost far more and give you headaches that you don't need.

    If it was my house I would like an isolator inside the house. Why? Because I would not like the idea of anyone being able to plug into my supply when I'm not home.
    The way this country has gone I may be sued of they get a shock or trip on their own lead, besides I'm paying the electricity bill.
    Better still most modern intruder alarms (such as HKC) have the capability to switch something like this on or off via an app on a smart phone.


  • #24
    Risteard81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    goz83 wrote: »
    just incase I wanted to upgrade the wiring later (not likely) or run other wires through, like my CCTV wiring.
    Another reason why a REC is required for these works. Low voltage (Band I) and extra-low voltage (Band II) cables should not share a duct, but obviously you weren't aware of this.


  • #25
    ptogher14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 203 ✭✭ptogher14


    2011 are you saying only electricians can run cables?


  • #26
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    ptogher14 wrote: »
    2011 are you saying only electricians can run cables?

    No.
    There are actually professional cable pullers out there, they are used extensively on industrial projects for installing big cables in large quantities on cable containment and dressing them.

    Anyone can install extra low voltage cabling for TVs, phones, intruder alarms etc. in a domestic installation.

    According to this link:
    "Restricted Electrical Works under the 2006 Act are defined as electrical work that can only be carried out and must be certified by a REC".

    It also states:
    "Parties that carry out Restricted Electrical Works, but are not registered with an SSB, will be subject to prosecution".

    So this applies to all domestic electrical work apart from "minor electrical works" (see forum charter).
    Some minor electrical works will mean that cables can be run by someone with no electrical qualifications.
    The work the OP is referring to does not fall under the definition of "minor electrical works".


  • #27
    ptogher14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 203 ✭✭ptogher14


    2011 wrote: »
    No.
    There are actually professional cable pullers out there, they are used extensively on industrial projects for installing big cables in large quantities on cable containment and dressing them.

    Anyone can install extra low voltage cabling for TVs, phones, intruder alarms etc. in a domestic installation.

    According to this link:
    "Restricted Electrical Works under the 2006 Act are defined as electrical work that can only be carried out and must be certified by a REC".

    It also states:
    "Parties that carry out Restricted Electrical Works, but are not registered with an SSB, will be subject to prosecution".

    So this applies to all domestic electrical work apart from "minor electrical works" (see forum charter).
    Some minor electrical works will mean that cables can be run by someone with no electrical qualifications.
    The work the OP is referring to does not fall under the definition of "minor electrical works".


    Professional cable pullers is a bit of a stretch. Implies they have some sort of training. Generally GOs or packed up farmers. Not slating what they do, I for one am not built for glanding or lugging 240s, but any Joe soap will walk into that job with zero experience. A crew of 20 cable pullers will have one maybe two sparks.

    I don't see why such an issue is being made out of this man laying a cable. He's stated he won't be doing any terminating.

    He's stated he's going to get guidance from an electrician.

    Where's the big difference from an REC turning up with a new apprentice, showing him the job. Leaving him there to throw the charger up and run the cable and coming back to terminate. Happens all the time and nobodys giving out about that.

    I'm not talking about the legalities of certing the work. I'm talking about this man running the cable in


  • #28
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    ptogher14 wrote: »
    Professional cable pullers is a bit of a stretch. Implies they have some sort of training.

    It only implies that they get paid to pull cables, (amateur cable pullers do it for free).
    You are reading too much into this.
    I would think that only a few are qualified electricians or have any electrical qualifications.
    Generally GOs or packed up farmers.

    Some are, but why not? They do a good job and get paid for it.
    Not slating what they do, I for one am not built for glanding or lugging 240s, but any Joe soap will walk into that job with zero experience.

    Been there, done that.
    I have only seen qualified electricians making off large cables, perhaps your experience is different.
    I don't see why such an issue is being made out of this man laying a cable. He's stated he won't be doing any terminating.

    As I said "I am not here to police this. If you want to do this yourself and you can find an electrician to connect it up, its your call. I really don't mind."

    Let's just say I have been at the receiving end of a few DIY experts that claim they "could teach a sparks a thing or two" :rolleyes:
    Where's the big difference from an REC turning up with a new apprentice, showing him the job. Leaving him there to throw the charger up and run the cable and coming back to terminate. Happens all the time and nobodys giving out about that.

    Apples and oranges.
    An apprentice would not be trusted to tie his own shoelaces on day one. Trust has to be earned over time. As the the apprentice progresses they learn how to carry out tasks properly under the watchful eye of an experienced electrician.

    Have you ever seen cables installed in a dangerous manner?
    Would you trust a complete stranger to install LV cables for you in every situation? If not where do you draw the line?


  • #29
    Risteard81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    ptogher14 wrote: »
    Where's the big difference from an REC turning up with a new apprentice, showing him the job. Leaving him there to throw the charger up and run the cable and coming back to terminate. Happens all the time and nobodys giving out about that.
    There is every difference with someone acting under the Electrician's direction within the terms of their employment by the REC than some randomer just deciding to throw cables in and conceal them and then expect an REC to assume everything is OK.


  • #30
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    There is every difference with someone acting under the Electrician's direction within the terms of their employment by the REC than some randomer just deciding to throw cables in and conceal them and then expect an REC to assume everything is OK.
    Must be so handy not having to assume his employee has installed all his concealed wiring to a proper standard.

    Take all the time you need, to ensure its done to a high standard I'd imagine he says to him/her.


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  • #31
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    There is every difference with someone acting under the Electrician's direction within the terms of their employment by the REC than some randomer just deciding to throw cables in and conceal them and then expect an REC to assume everything is OK.

    To clarify again. The work I was intending to do would not have been concealed. I later mentioned concealing the cables, but this would be long after an electrician had completed the work. Being qualified doesn't mean the work is going to be up to standard. Some people need an eye over their shoulder to do anything properly. I certainly wouldn't be happy with an apprentice being left to do work I was paying for. Fine if the REC is present and checking the work.


  • #32
    cros13
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭cros13


    We've got a bit of a rock and hard place thing going on at the moment with EV chargepoints.

    1. ESB grant aid installation of only a 16A untethered chargepoint for buyers of new EVs from Irish dealers only

    2. ESBs contractors are quoting unreasonable prices to fit 32A chargepoints instead despite the fact the OEMs charge the same for both 16A and 32A. This is dovetailing with 30kWh+ EVs effectively requiring a 32A chargepoint to complete a charge from empty inside nightsaver hours.

    3. "Specialist" chargepoint installers are quoting up to €2.5k for fitting what is effectively just a glorified 32A outdoor socket (RRP €300), a bit of 6sq SWA and usually a 40A C-curve (D curve for a Renault Zoe) MCB or RCBO. Not including any other works required.

    4. A lot of the local sparks hear "chargepoint" and seem to think this is some kind of specialist job.

    5. Sterling is making imports more attractive, more people are importing and have to find a reasonably priced way to get a chargepoint installed.

    Then there are the well founded concerns about exceeding MIC etc. etc.

    The current advice on the EV forum is to source the chargepoint online, tell your friendly local REC you want a 32A outdoor socket installed and explain the chargepoint when they come out to scope the job.


  • #33
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    cros13 is spot on. The person I had in mind for the installation is not available for a couple of weeks. So I rang a couple of installers and emailed one of them with what I needed. I told him I was supplying the charger and he was to supply the cable (less than 10m) and priority switch.

    The price was quoted is almost €900. Robbery


  • #34
    Risteard81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    goz83 wrote: »
    cros13 is spot on. The person I had in mind for the installation is not available for a couple of weeks. So I rang a couple of installers and emailed one of them with what I needed. I told him I was supplying the charger and he was to supply the cable (less than 10m) and priority switch.

    The price was quoted is almost €900. Robbery
    Not really robbery - you are attempting to take all profit out of the job by buying some materials so the price has been adjusted accordingly.


  • #35
    Tuco88
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭Tuco88


    I'd imagine that if you have two showers (a priority/non unit) installed it will get messy. What's the norm.with this situation?


  • #36
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    Not really robbery - you are attempting to take all profit out of the job by buying some materials so the price has been adjusted accordingly.

    Are you seriously saying that €900 is an acceptable price to have an external socket/power supply and priority switch installed, where the socket is being supplied? I'm in the wrong trade if so. With every conceivable overhead and tax, there's profit of well over €400 in a job that would take a couple of hours.


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  • #37
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    Tuco88 wrote: »
    I'd imagine that if you have two showers (a priority/non unit) installed it will get messy. What's the norm.with this situation?

    One shower only. When I get a second shower, it won't be an electric shower. Nothing out of the ordinary with the install.


  • #38
    alan4cult
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭alan4cult


    Imagine in about 5-10 years time when people try and charge two cars from one chargepoint and disagreements over who gets to charge their car, inevitably somebody ending up with an unusable car in the morning.

    I mean isn't there still a lot to be said for the petrol engine?


  • #39
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    alan4cult wrote: »
    Imagine in about 5-10 years time when people try and charge two cars from one chargepoint and disagreements over who gets to charge their car, inevitably somebody ending up with an unusable car in the morning.

    I mean isn't there still a lot to be said for the petrol engine?

    Would be pretty rare to need to charge every night, but to overcome that, you just pick a suitable charge point. The one I chose has a tethered cable for the 32Amp connection and it also has a standard 13Amp socket, so 2 cars could be plugged in if need be.

    There's plenty to be said for the petrol engine alright, especially when you're pumping over €60 a week into it. For me, it just made more sense to lose one of the gas guzzlers and get something that costs less to run.


  • #40
    alan4cult
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭alan4cult


    Yep but the electric will jack it in at about 120 miles, then another run to the charging point.


  • #41
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    alan4cult wrote: »
    Yep but the electric will jack it in at about 120 miles, then another run to the charging point.

    Take a spin over to the electric vehicles and hybrids sub forum for that conversation. This thread is about the installation (and cost) of getting a charge point installed.


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  • #42
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,561 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    goz83 wrote: »
    Take a spin over to the electric vehicles and hybrids sub forum for that conversation. This thread is about the installation (and cost) of getting a charge point installed.

    goz83:
    Your response reminds me of some lines from Thomas Grey's wonderful ELEGY WRITTEN IN
    A COUNTRY CHURCH-YARD
    "Full many a gem of purest ray serene
    The dark unfathom'd caves of ocean bear:
    Full many a flower is born to blush unseen,
    And waste its sweetness on the desert air."

    http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Poetry/Elegy.htm

    As for the post that gave rise too it: perhaps:

    "The boast of heraldry, the pomp of power,
    And all that beauty, all that wealth e'er gave,
    Awaits alike th' inevitable hour:-
    The paths of glory lead but to the grave."

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #43
    cros13
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭cros13


    alan4cult wrote: »
    Imagine in about 5-10 years time when people try and charge two cars from one chargepoint and disagreements over who gets to charge their car, inevitably somebody ending up with an unusable car in the morning.

    For that situation you use two load sharing chargepoints. The chargepoints split the available load. Load sharing is a pretty normal feature on a lot of mid-range (€450) to high-end chargepoints. You can also hook them to a building energy management system, follow local microgeneration production or use weather forecasting to predict energy pricing or local production.

    Tesla's Wall Connector (€450-€500 | works with any vehicle using the european standard type 2 plug (except the Zoe)) allows daisychaining up to four chargepoints with comms over simple bell wire between the chargepoints. You set the current to be divvied up between them on a rotary dip switch on the master (or set them all to slave mode and have your home energy management system tell the chargepoints what to draw over RS485).

    https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/load-sharing-tesla-wall-connector?redirect=no

    BMW is launching their 2nd generation smart chargers this month ( €600 -€1000 | the first gen launched in 2013 and has a similar featureset delivered via an app and LCD at the chargepoint)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBX6NWUW0Xk


    There are 7 EVs now in my extended family... I've got plenty of easy solutions for multi-EV charging.
    goz83 wrote: »
    Are you seriously saying that €900 is an acceptable price to have an external socket/power supply and priority switch installed, where the socket is being supplied? I'm in the wrong trade if so. With every conceivable overhead and tax, there's profit of well over €400 in a job that would take a couple of hours.

    I paid €100 for my last RECI, in my case the it was just popping in the MCB (Rolec, built-in RCBO) and wiring in the chargepoint. 10 minute job. I'd already disconnected and thrown the electric shower in the WEEE.


  • #44
    Risteard81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    goz83 wrote: »
    Risteard81 wrote: »
    Not really robbery - you are attempting to take all profit out of the job by buying some materials so the price has been adjusted accordingly.

    Are you seriously saying that €900 is an acceptable price to have an external socket/power supply and priority switch installed, where the socket is being supplied? I'm in the wrong trade if so. With every conceivable overhead and tax, there's profit of well over €400 in a job that would take a couple of hours.
    What I actually said was that by you supplying some of the materials and attempting to reduce the profit for the Electrician he has duly adjusted the price upwards to penalise you. It's hardly surprising - you were trying to make the job unprofitable and therefore have received a high quote for doing the work.


  • #45
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    It wouldnt seem all that unusual for electricians to connect expensive fixed appliances not supplied by themselves.


  • #46
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    What I actually said was that by you supplying some of the materials and attempting to reduce the profit for the Electrician he has duly adjusted the price upwards to penalise you. It's hardly surprising - you were trying to make the job unprofitable and therefore have received a high quote for doing the work.

    That's not what you actually said though, is it? And I wouldn't expect someone to work for free either. If a sparks can't make a profit from providing a service, rather than making a large markup on equipment, then he should be doing something else.

    You actually said I was "attempting to take all profit out of the job by buying some materials".

    This is not the case at all. I was supplying one specific item, primarily so I would get exactly the unit I wanted, rather than wait for an electrician to get the finger out and order the parts for me. I have found that things go more smoothly when I supply the parts....which sometimes is cheaper, sometimes not, but I know what I am getting. I've often done it with car parts...unless the garage had the parts handy, or could get them that day.

    I paid over €500 for the charge point. I asked for 10sq armoured cable of up to 10 Metres. I asked for the priority switch to be supplied too. The job should be less than €900 with the equipment supplied by the reci......certainly no more than €1k. The job will take maybe 2 hours with a couple of tea breaks.

    The price given has not penalised me at all. Quite the opposite actually. The guy has priced himself out of an easy job.....simple as that. It only took a couple of calls to get a fair quote. The job will be done next week for under €200. This includes disconnecting a feed into a shed, which is to be knocked next week. The priority switch will be covered separately, as I haven't decided what to get yet.


  • #47
    leroypatches
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭leroypatches


    Interesting read! Sorry for reviving an old thread.

    Similar the case mentioned briefly earlier - What would need to be done if a house wanted 2x Triton 9Kw showers and a 7.2kW charger.

    Is it possible to have a priority switch with one leg to the car and the other leg to the showers (favouring the showers) - then a non-priority switch between the 2 showers?


  • #48
    quietsailor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭quietsailor


    Check out chargers that have load sensing or it can be called load sharing. THe Zappi brand is the one most often named.

    As well as the three cable live, neutral earth wire there will be a second cable which has a sensor on the end.

    That sensor clamps around the wire from the meter to the fuse box/distribution board (DB). When the Zappi senses the current going into the DB is too high it lowers the current going to the car, once the current going into the DB falls the Zappi raises the current going to the car.

    We've a Zappi installed in our house as we already have two electric showers with a priority switch feeding them. The electrician said two showers plus a car charger would make the priority switching complicated so we went with the Zappi


  • #49
    leroypatches
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭leroypatches


    Thanks a mil.

    Am getting other work done and making a plan for down the road so that’s great to know there is a simple solution.

    Planning on getting an electrician to lay an armour cable while we dig up the front. Will make sure there’s an extra few cores in the cable.

    Thanks.


  • #50
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    leroypatches wrote: »
    Planning on getting an electrician to lay an armour cable while we dig up the front. Will make sure there’s an extra few cores in the cable.

    The cable will need to be able to support 40A and it needs to be a dedicated circuit, not looped off something else, so I dont think you need extra cores.

    The load sensing cable from the Zappi is a twisted pair, not a normal live core, so it will need to be run separately.

    Maybe put in ducting now rather than cable? Easy to push a cable through after when you have a charge point.


  • #51
    leroypatches
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭leroypatches


    Ok. That makes sense. Thanks a mil


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