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Can you be forced to do ordinary level

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  • 10-10-2018 11:30pm
    #1
    oswinoswald
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭


    hi
    my sister is in second year. she is generally bright and got several As in her summer exams. However she got 45% in maths mainly due to disinterest and laziness and was placed straight into an ordinary level class in September. She's started grinds and has been doing a lot of extra work by herself and has really improved. The atmosphere of the ordinary classroom is not motivating for her and we know she is well able for higher level however the school has said she wont be allowed to move up. Is this allowed or legal? I am certain she is capable of at least a C in higher and doing pass maths at this early stage could limit what courses she can apply to when college is looming.
    Let me know what you think and what steps I can take.
    Thanks.


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    #2
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    No no no no
    The school cannot force a child to do a certain level. They can only recommend. At that they should be deferring the recommendation to the parent first (I.e. not telling/advising Her she needs to move class next week and away she goes).

    In our school if a child wants to move levels we need to get written consent from the parents before doing it. That's just our procedures But it shows how cautious we are about getting parental involvement.

    Your parents could go in strong with the teacher/principal and say they feel "as her parent" she can try better and is getting help and they don't think she should be "denied" this opportunity especially without even informing the parents first.

    Constitution clearly states "parents are the primary educators".

    BTW If she kept up that 45% all the way to LC she could get H6 = 71 points in higher level whereas the max she could ever get in ordinary level is O1=45 points.


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    #3
    Tropical.ing
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Tropical.ing


    Actually an O1 is worth 56 points, not 45. I still recommend she does higher though!


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    #4
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Tropical.ing wrote: »
    Actually an O1 is worth 56 points, not 45. I still recommend she does higher though!

    Ya sorry 56, I typed the % twice.
    Forget to warn that there iz a slight chance bonus points might be removed.


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    #5
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I would get on to the school. Its likely they've done this to more than one child. Probably had a lot of complaints. Your sister should know who else had been moved.


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    #6
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,293 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    oswinoswald wrote: »
    hi
    my sister is in second year. she is generally bright and got several As in her summer exams. However she got 45% in maths mainly due to disinterest and laziness and was placed straight into an ordinary level class in September. She's started grinds and has been doing a lot of extra work by herself and has really improved. The atmosphere of the ordinary classroom is not motivating for her and we know she is well able for higher level however the school has said she wont be allowed to move up. Is this allowed or legal? I am certain she is capable of at least a C in higher and doing pass maths at this early stage could limit what courses she can apply to when college is looming.
    Let me know what you think and what steps I can take.
    Thanks.

    No.

    A teacher tried to do this to me in second year many years ago. I like the young impressionable person I was went straight home and told my parents that I was starting ordinary level maths tomorrow.

    Not a chance that was happening and they rang the school to make sure that didn't happen.

    And asked for me to be moved to another higher level maths teacher which I was.

    I left secondary school with an A2 in higher level maths into engineering. I'm now a principal software engineer.

    Do NOT let teachers dictate such things. It's for an easy life for themselves. Nothing else.


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    #7
    oswinoswald
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭oswinoswald


    beauf wrote: »
    I would get on to the school. Its likely they've done this to more than one child. Probably had a lot of complaints. Your sister should know who else had been moved.

    the grinds school she has started with had a few pupils last year from the same school who were weren't allowed into an honours class in the school but did the course outside. they ended up with Bs (or whatever the equivalent is under the new grading, im not sure). A friend who went to the school several years ago has told me it was the same when he was there, once you were placed in pass that was it, no moving.

    I dont see how the school can justify keeping capable children from doing higher level. we're lucky we can afford the grinds to learn the HL course outside but I'm sure there are kids in the class who can't. What about them?


    I've written a letter to the school this morning asking for her to be moved up. If they say no I will definitely take it further.


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    #8
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,138 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Mod>Less of the 'easy life for teachers' nonsense.
    Would you rather two levels be taught in one class and a right mess made of both?

    OP Take it up with the school and your local TD. Ask has staffing provision been given for another HL class and if not, why not?

    HL is the 'norm' at JC. Unless there is some learning difficulty all students should be doing all, if not almost all, HL, at least until 3rd year where a pattern of not being able to manage HL would have shown itself. Moving a child on the basis of one test is silly, and points towards a shortage of places in HL class(es).

    Your sister has learned a lesson as to how very often with the severe pressure schools are under for staffing, one silly mistake or term spent messing can end up in a right mess.


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    #9
    oswinoswald
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭oswinoswald


    spurious wrote: »
    Mod>Less of the 'easy life for teachers' nonsense.
    Would you rather two levels be taught in one class and a right mess made of both?

    OP Take it up with the school and your local TD. Ask has staffing provision been given for another HL class and if not, why not?

    HL is the 'norm' at JC. Unless there is some learning difficulty all students should be doing all, if not almost all, HL, at least until 3rd year where a pattern of not being able to manage HL would have shown itself. Moving a child on the basis of one test is silly, and points towards a shortage of places in HL class(es).

    Your sister has learned a lesson as to how very often with the severe pressure schools are under for staffing, one silly mistake or term spent messing can end up in a right mess.

    I don't blame the teacher, when we contacted the school we were told we could go in and speak to the maths teacher but I don't think its their fault, they're just following school protocol. I don't know if it is a staffing issue. They have at least 60 children in second year doing ordinary level already (there could be a third OL class, we arent sure) and i believe half have expressed interest in moving up. could one of these ordinary classes not become an extra higher class, and just merge the remaining kids who wish to stay in ordinary?

    In addition, she was placed straight into a higher level irish class on the first day of second year. however today she is taking a test, and on the basis of the results, the children with the lowest scores will be sent to a pass class next week. I think she'll do alright in it, thank god.

    it just seems that the school is not helping them reach their full potential. Anyway, I have written the letter and will contact a TD if I don't get a satisfactory response.
    Thanks.


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    #10
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,293 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    spurious wrote: »
    Mod>Less of the 'easy life for teachers' nonsense.
    Would you rather two levels be taught in one class and a right mess made of both?

    that's a fair rebuke

    I should have been more specific - it was definitely about it being an easier life for this particular teacher. He had form and continued to have form in that regard.


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    #11
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,138 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Check has the school has any Maths inspections recently and if so, read the reports. It is unlikely the Department would let students be forced to do OL, particularly at JC and in Maths.

    Use this page to search for the school: https://www.education.ie/en/Find-a-School/
    The resulting page will have a list of inspections and reports.

    No need to name the school. If you can't find it, PM me and I will help.


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    #12
    oswinoswald
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭oswinoswald


    spurious wrote: »
    Check has the school has any Maths inspections recently and if so, read the reports. It is unlikely the Department would let students be forced to do OL, particularly at JC and in Maths.

    Use this page to search for the school: https://www.education.ie/en/Find-a-School/
    The resulting page will have a list of inspections and reports.

    No need to name the school. If you can't find it, PM me and I will help.

    Thanks. Hasnt been a maths report for well over 5 years but it specifically mentions that the school puts people into ordinary level in first year and that it should be changed.

    Hopefully everything works out.


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    #13
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,138 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    oswinoswald wrote: »
    Thanks. Hasnt been a maths report for well over 5 years but it specifically mentions that the school puts people into ordinary level in first year and that it should be changed.

    Hopefully everything works out.

    They are supposed to do what is recommended, it's Department speak for 'stop doing that, NOW'. The parents could write to the Board of Management and ask why that particular recommendation has not been followed through on. Write to the Department as well.

    Letters have to get recorded at meetings etc., and can have much more effect than a conversation in an office which some people will deny ever took place.


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    #14
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    oswinoswald wrote: »
    I don't blame the teacher, when we contacted the school we were told we could go in and speak to the maths teacher but I don't think its their fault, they're just following school protocol. I don't know if it is a staffing issue. They have at least 60 children in second year doing ordinary level already (there could be a third OL class, we arent sure) and i believe half have expressed interest in moving up. could one of these ordinary classes not become an extra higher class, and just merge the remaining kids who wish to stay in ordinary?

    In addition, she was placed straight into a higher level irish class on the first day of second year. however today she is taking a test, and on the basis of the results, the children with the lowest scores will be sent to a pass class next week. I think she'll do alright in it, thank god.

    it just seems that the school is not helping them reach their full potential. Anyway, I have written the letter and will contact a TD if I don't get a satisfactory response.
    Thanks.

    60 kids in second year doing ordinary level. ???
    I'd be on to the local papers if that were the case.
    They have a teaching problem not a learning one.
    Also write a letter to the Board of Management asking for a reply about how they move students without parental consultation etc. This letter will have to be read out at the meeting and recorded.


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    #15
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,501 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    oswinoswald wrote: »
    however today she is taking a test, and on the basis of the results, the children with the lowest scores will be sent to a pass class next week.
    It would be worth clarifying if this test is a ranking exercise (something like 'Top 10' stay up, 'bottom 20' go down) or a measurement against an absolute standard (everyone about 60% stays up, everyone below goes down).


    If it is a ranking exercise, this would show that the school policy is a numbers game, rather than a basing it on measure of ability.


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    #16
    oswinoswald
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭oswinoswald


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    It would be worth clarifying if this test is a ranking exercise (something like 'Top 10' stay up, 'bottom 20' go down) or a measurement against an absolute standard (everyone about 60% stays up, everyone below goes down).


    If it is a ranking exercise, this would show that the school policy is a numbers game, rather than a basing it on measure of ability.

    I'm not sure about the irish test.

    There was a maths equivalent of this test though and that was ranking based, there were dozens of kids competing for 4 places in higher level. the kids who didnt make the cut were told their test scores wont be divulged today. which is riidiculous as the child who got the final place in higher level could have gotten 70% in the test and the student next in line could have gotten 69%, yet they have to stay in ordinary!


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    #17
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,501 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    A ranking exercise confirms without a doubt that it is being done to suit the school, not in the best interests of the students


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