Peak Ali vs Peak Vitali Klitschko

kryogen · 25-02-2012 10:29am

I think the match up for Ali is unfavoruable so give this to Vitali.

Someone mentioned his height, its pretty clear if you have watched the Klitschko brothers a lot, or seen them together a few times that Vitali is about 3 inches taller. It really is clear as day, at the Haye fight Vitali was standing behind Wlad and was visibly taller for anyone who needs a fresh memory of them?

Ali didnt hit hard enough to trouble Vitali in my book, Vitali has a great defense and a great chin. Just can't see how Ali wins the fight (of course you would never rule him out completely cause its Ali).

Boxing is all about styles, who matches up well with who etc, and for me, Vitali matches up well against Ali. someone mentioned Vitali's peak being 25-29 years of age? I think thats a little bit on the young side, the experience he gained etc made him a better boxer at 31-35 ish then when he was younger.

He is so hard to beat, just cant see how Ali wins.

This Lewis fight irritates me, a bad cut can happen to anyone, absolutely anyone when fighting a guy with the kind of Power Lewis had. Vitali was 2 rounds up in the fight and Lewis was fading fast in that fight, in another couple of rounds without the cut I think Vitali puts Lewis down.

Prime Lewis could have been a different story, but there was clearly one dominant fighter in that fight and it wasnt the winner.

walshb · 25-02-2012 3:29pm

kryogen wrote: »

IPrime Lewis could have been a different story, but there was clearly one dominant fighter in that fight and it wasnt the winner.

That is far too generous. I had Vitali ahead by a rd, possibly two rds. The judges had it by 2 points. No way was he dominating. Lewis was well in that fight, and the exchanges were tough, heavy and ebb and flow!

Vitali was doing very well, and deserved to be ahead, but you could not say he was dominanting Lewis.

cowzerp · 25-02-2012 3:58pm

walshb wrote: »

That is far too generous. I had Vitali ahead by a rd, possibly two rds. The judges had it by 2 points. No way was he dominating. Lewis was well in that fight, and the exchanges were tough, heavy and ebb and flow!

Vitali was doing very well, and deserved to be ahead, but you could not say he was dominanting Lewis.

2 rounds up at least-the judges if anything would have been more in favour of the more local fighter, Vitali was out skilling and out fighting Lewis and Lewis to me was better With age than in his younger years where Vitali would have easily beat him, like the time Bruno was dominating him till his weak chin got caught

walshb · 25-02-2012 4:16pm

cowzerp wrote: »

2 rounds up at least-the judges if anything would have been more in favour of the more local fighter, Vitali was out skilling and out fighting Lewis and Lewis to me was better With age than in his younger years where Vitali would have easily beat him, like the time Bruno was dominating him till his weak chin got caught

Better with age, possibly, but not aged 38. It's as plain as the nose on your face that the Lewis who fought Vitali was not as fast, fit or as good as the one from the mid to late 90s. It's clear, yet he still beat Vitali, and held his own quite well.

And, how would Vitali easily beats Lewis from say 1991 or 1992 or 1993? How? What from Vitali's record would suggest that.

Show me a dominant Vitali performance against an opponent remotely as big and talented as a 1991 or 1992 or 1993 Lennox Lewis?

cowzerp · 25-02-2012 4:27pm

walshb wrote: »

And, how would Vitali easily beats Lewis from say 1991 or 1992 or 1993? How? What from Vitali's record would suggest that.

Show me a dominant Vitali performance against an opponent remotely as big and talented as a 1991 or 1992 or 1993 Lennox Lewis?

Easily, Lewis back then was like a really poor version of Vitali, and 10 times more negative too,Vitali had more power and was a better boxer with a better chin.

Lewis looks better than he is due to beating 2 washed up legends in Tyson and Holyfield

walshb · 25-02-2012 4:40pm

cowzerp wrote: »

Easily, Lewis back then was like a really poor version of Vitali, and 10 times more negative too,he had more power and was a better boxer with a better chin.

Lewis looks better than he is due to beating 2 washed up legends in Tyson and Holyfield

I really dispute the claim that Vitali had more power at any point in either man's career. Lewis was two things back then, clearly faster, and certainly fitter. Two key components that lacked when he met, and beat Vitali in the nougties. Also, I don't see Vitali knocking out Lewis. It too hail maty shots to do this to Lewis. Vtali never commited to those types of shots.

cowzerp · 25-02-2012 6:35pm

I don't believe Lewis was any better at any stage of his career than his last fight, he tired because he was been bashed, most people don't tire when dominating fights, this was a dogged fight and both where working very hard, mostly with Vitali on top, and Lewis fading, he only retired as he knew Vitali had him beat and that was after promising a rematch.

Lewis was at his best in his last few years, I'm sure of this, he was very average in the younger years.

walshb · 25-02-2012 6:51pm

cowzerp wrote: »

I don't believe Lewis was any better at any stage of his career than his last fight.

Well, that is you view, one I think that would be really in the minortiy. The vast majority of fight fans I believe would argue that Lenox Lewis when he fought Vitali was not near his best. He was 38 at that time, having been in many fights, some quite tough ones too. I would also add that I reckon many who rate Vitali better would also conceded that Lewis at 38 wasn't near his best.

RiseToTheTop · 25-02-2012 8:33pm

Holyfield wasn't past it when he met Lewis, he had just come off 2 superb performances off a (past prime, but still good) Mike Tyson.

Lewis beat Tua too, not an easy fight by any stretch.

Lewis is out and out the biggest fighter who Vitali ever faced, and will ever face.

tryingmybestt · 25-02-2012 9:09pm

The results are in:

The winner is ALI !

cowzerp · 25-02-2012 9:35pm

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

Holyfield wasn't past it when he met Lewis, he had just come off 2 superb performances off a (past prime, but still good) mike Tyson .

both Tyson and Holyfield where finished, just because Holyfield kept going does not mean he was not past it, Holyfield was banned for having a dodgy heart before that, god fixed it :rolleyes:

RiseToTheTop · 25-02-2012 9:36pm

Different doctors have different opinions.

Do you have evidence that Holyfield was finished?

walshb · 25-02-2012 9:36pm

If Holyfield was past it when he met Lewis, then Lewis was past it when he met Vitali.

I believe Holyfield was past it when he met Lewis.

BTW, there is IMO a difference between being past it and being finished.

Ali in 1976 was past it. In 1980 he was finished, to use one example.

Holyfield when he met lewis was past it, he was not finished.

plasmaguy · 26-02-2012 12:50am

This is a no brainer for me.

Ali would win, easily enough.

He was one of the fastest if not the fastest Heavyweight of all time, yet still had an imposing physique, a solid Jab, and knockout power, and he fought some massive men not far off the size of the Klitchkos. Their size might save them for a round or two longer, but that's it. Once he got into his rhythm, Ali was pretty much unbeatable, and that was in a very tough and competitive era of boxing, compared to today.

The Klitchskos are slow and fairly useless in close. Ali would have the speed, experience and skill to take care of them. They wouldn't last to the 8th round.

As for hitting power, I reckon Foreman and Earnie Shavers probably hit harder than the Klitschkos, in fact I'm certain of it.

kryogen · 26-02-2012 1:09am

Whatever side you come down on, there is no way in hell you can say Ali would win this easily. Nobody would out point or knock out Vitali Klitschko easily.

walshb · 26-02-2012 10:47am

kryogen wrote: »

Whatever side you come down on, there is no way in hell you can say Ali would win this easily. Nobody would out point or knock out Vitali Klitschko easily.

I wouldn't say easily either, but the best Ali from the 60s would find that rhythm and would figure Vit out. He has too much hand and foot speed combined. I see a clear UD. Not easy, but folks left in no doubt who won.

plasmaguy · 26-02-2012 10:02pm

Vitali - bigger, stronger, but less mobile, poor close in like a lot of big fighters. Fights the same fight pretty much every fight regardless of opponent. World Champ by default in an uncompetitive era.

Ali - Devastating handspeed and combinations which Klitchscho more than likely would have no defence against. Quicker and more mobile around the ring, almost impossible to corner or pin down. Able to take severe punishment as well. Enormous stamina and fitness. Fought in an era of incredibly hard men who hit as hard as Vitali, could take more punishment than Vitali, and were more skillful than Vitali.

I don't think Klitchscho would have ranked in the top 10 in the 1970s.

kryogen · 28-02-2012 2:19am

It would be my opinion that you underrate Vitali in that case

Dohnny Jepp · 28-02-2012 5:31pm

plasmaguy wrote: »

could take more punishment than Vitali, and were more skillful than Vitali.

I don't think Klitchscho would have ranked in the top 10 in the 1970s.

Who could take more punishment?

Which 10 would be keeping him out of the top 10?

RiseToTheTop · 28-02-2012 6:12pm

You could make a legit claim for Vitali maybe not being in the top 5 in the 70's (Ali, Frazier, Holmes, Norton, Shavers, Foreman, Lyle) but the top 10??

walshb · 28-02-2012 6:51pm

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

You could make a legit claim for Vitali maybe not being in the top 5 in the 70's (Ali, Frazier, Holmes, Norton, Shavers, Foreman, Lyle) but the top 10??

Vit beats Lyle and Norton most times. Apart from Ali, Holmes and Foreman, Klit is a big threat across the board, and a threat to these too. I pick all three to beat Klit most times.

RiseToTheTop · 28-02-2012 7:23pm

I wonder if Vitali could take a punch from Shavers though.

walshb · 28-02-2012 7:31pm

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

I wonder if Vitali could take a punch from Shavers though.

Never know really, but I think Shavers may struggle to land a clean and flush punch anyway. Shavers and Norton are just not rounded enough or chinny enough to beat Klit, not that Klit will KO them, but he has that capability, and with this in mind, and the size difference, I think Vitali beats them almost all the time.

RiseToTheTop · 28-02-2012 9:22pm

Can I ask this question:

People say Vitali will go down as an ATG, just below 50% of below believe he would beat George Foreman, 33% of people in a poll believe he would beat Ali.

But what is your evidence? His biggest, out and out, fight was against a faded, 38 year old overweight Lennox Lewis. I'm not discussing him not getting the win against Lewis. But lets say he did for this post. Lennox was still not the man he once was and he was still faded, overweight and 38 years old.

The rest of Vitali's resume is IMO below average. Apart from Lewis, (who was 38) he didn't once fight an other fighter who could be an ATG. Also, before Lewis, when he had a record of 32-1, he didn't fight 1 of the best fighters of the late 80's/90's who career were coming to an end. (Tyson, Holyfield.) Or top 5 fighters (Tua, Hasim Rahman). That would suggest his 32-1 record wasn't what you'd think it would be.

After Lewis, he fought Kirk Johnson, Corrie Sanders and Danny Wiliams before he had to leave the sport. His last 3 fights (Chisora, Adamek, Solis) have arguably (bar Lewis) been the most high profile and best of his entire career. The only other good fighter, IMO, who he faced since his comeback has been Chris Arreola. (who, not Vitali's fault, was overweight and very overweight, visually looked far from class opposition on the night.)

Vitali may look world class, he may look like the ATG's did when fightning, but only against the opposition he has faced. Foreman (based on his prime) knocked out Frazier, Norton, Ron Lyle, George Chuvalo, all good opposition. (well he obliterated Frazier and Norton.)

I can't see how many people would think he'd beat a prime Ali or prime George Foreman. Ali's resume (Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Shavers, Lyle, etc) and Foreman's resume (best fighters above) are much, much, much better than Vitali's IMO, league's ahead, and I doubt you can find a person who'd agree otherwise. That is why I am so reluctant to put Vitali up there. He is very, very unproven as an ATG in my eyes.

walshb · 28-02-2012 10:11pm

I would have to agree that Vitali's victims are just not at all that good, and no, nothing to do with them being known, OR Klit being too good. They are just not good. I mean, any top HW of the 80s would destroy them. Tubbs, Thomas, Berbick, Whiterspoon, Biggs, Tucker, Douglas, Smith, and even Bruno and Mason would IMO be too much. Dokes as well, and Weaver.

The 70s best of Foreman, Frazier, Holmes, Lysle would also be fat too good for any of Vit's victims.

Two thing here: And folks need to be honest. I think Vitali wouldpose big problems all the time for any champ in history. That I do believe, but as far as who he has beaten, I think it's ranks quite low. His biggest name, he lost.

Next biggest name to Lewis on Vitali's record? Does anyone know, or even care? How could you select from the list there is?

walshb · 28-02-2012 10:11pm

I would have to agree that Vitali's victims are just not at all that good, and no, nothing to do with them being not known, OR Klit being too good. They are just not good. I mean, any top HW of the 80s would destroy them. Tubbs, Thomas, Berbick, Whiterspoon, Biggs, Tucker, Douglas, Smith, and even Bruno and Mason would IMO be too much. Dokes as well, and Weaver.

The 70s best of Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Holmes, Quarry, Lyle etc would also be far too good for any of Vit's victims. Unless we take into account their superior technique;)

Two thing here: And folks need to be honest. I think Vitali would pose big problems all the time for any champ in history. That I do believe, but as far as who he has beaten, I think it ranks quite low. His biggest name, he lost.

Next biggest name to Lewis on Vitali's record? Does anyone know, or even care? How could you select from the list there is?

kryogen · 29-02-2012 12:23am

You can't really use the fact that there is nobody to oppose him or challenge him sufficiently in the HW division as a stick to beat him, its not his fault like!

The evidence of his ability is clear for all to see, as long as you are watching with a little bit of knowledge!

He easily makes the top 10 all time.

Where he lands in the top 10 list is up for debate, no interest in that right now though!

He would pose a problem for anybody in the history of the sport. I'm not saying he would definitely beat anybody who has ever laced up a pair of gloves, but he would certainly pose a threat to anyone.

cowzerp · 29-02-2012 1:35am

walshb wrote: »

I would have to agree that Vitali's victims are just not at all that good, and no, nothing to do with them being known, OR Klit being too good. They are just not good. I mean, any top HW of the 80s would destroy them. Tubbs, Thomas, Berbick, Whiterspoon, Biggs, Tucker, Douglas, Smith, and even Bruno and Mason would IMO be too much. Dokes as well, and Weaver.

Bren all these lads are bums, their not good fighters and never where.

walshb · 29-02-2012 12:58pm

kryogen wrote: »

You can't really use the fact that there is nobody to oppose him or challenge him sufficiently in the HW division as a stick to beat him, its not his fault like!

The evidence of his ability is clear for all to see, as long as you are watching with a little bit of knowledge!

He easily makes the top 10 all time.

Where he lands in the top 10 list is up for debate, no interest in that right now though!

He would pose a problem for anybody in the history of the sport. I'm not saying he would definitely beat anybody who has ever laced up a pair of gloves, but he would certainly pose a threat to anyone.

Yes, this is what I am saying. He has the talent and size. Not his fault that his foes are quite poor. He has the ability to be competitive in any era. Does not mean he has to be top ten? You say easily?

He is just outside mine, and to get into mine he would most likely have to get in ahead of a Lennox Lewis. I just cannot do that, no way.

walshb · 29-02-2012 1:00pm

cowzerp wrote: »

Bren all these lads are bums, their not good fighters and never where.

Well, what does that make Chisora, Williams, Adamek, Johnson, Haye, Peter etc? Because in my view the Tucker's and Biggs and Pinky's and Bruno's and Mason's and Berbick's and Dokes etc eat theses guys alive, as do Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Norton, Quarry, Ali, Lyle and some other 70s men. Plain and simple, the talent pool today and in recent Klit times is just quite poor. I reiterate, not Klit's fault. He to me is a man who would be competitive at any time in history.

Peak Ali vs Peak Vitali Klitschko

Comments