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Working part time in Grad Med
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23-05-2013 2:35pm#1So, I'm just wondering has anyone any views on whether it's possible to work part time and stay on top of the course work? I don't have any help from home and don't have enough in savings to survive solely on them, so I'm wondering will I be able to keep some money flowing in whilst studying?0
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nomoreexams wrote: »So, I'm just wondering has anyone any views on whether it's possible to work part time and stay on top of the course work? I don't have any help from home and don't have enough in savings to survive solely on them, so I'm wondering will I be able to keep some money flowing in whilst studying?
I plan on working part-time. I'm not rich, and I'm sure it's possible. You will just have to budget your time, and sacrifice social events, accordingly.
I'm looking to work 10-15 hours a week to help with my day-to-day living expenses and bills. I've resigned myself to that fact that my rent and tuition fees will have to come from loans.0 -
PLAYSTATION4 wrote: »I plan on working part-time. I'm not rich, and I'm sure it's possible. You will just have to budget your time, and sacrifice social events, accordingly.
I'm looking to work 10-15 hours a week to help with my day-to-day living expenses and bills. I've resigned myself to that fact that my rent and tuition fees will have to come from loans.
Ah yes rent! How can we forget rent!? That's the killer. I don't think my 12 hours a week job will pay for rent. Nor do I think the bank will lend it to me! Glad that someone else will be working too though. Study/work will no doubt deprive me of a social life but unless I win the lotto (fingers crossed I win the 10mil this weekend) or marry a millionaire work will be my number 2 priority.0 -
Based on the new loan structures and requirements of some banks that interest repayments begin immediately in first year, this thread might well be the most important topic of all needing detailed discussion.
It is very difficult to envisage making repayments as well as covering rent, daily living expenses, and ongoing college expenses with a small part-time income. In the absence of significant personal funds the ability to survive financially may well be the toughest challenge ahead. If you're lucky enough to get a job that pays well, and you can juggle the study and family/social committments (whilst maintaining you sanity of course!), it may be possible.
I don't think the topic of this thread has been discussed previously in the necessary detail - especially in the light of the current loan structures and, as importantly, the current financial situation and salary adjustments in the irish health service.0 -
The options for working are either a few hours during the year or getting a summer job.
One major consideration for a summer job is that the summer break in first year in RCSI is very short (only 7-8 weeks) as you have a month in the hospital versus 13-14 weeks in UCD. This gives you a lot more chance to even find a job let alone actually work and earn.0 -
The better option for those who will depend on this type of income is to target working both. The difficulties of getting summer work alone are ever increasing. Add to this that such positions are often less than full-time (in terms of hours worked) and it's hard to see that you could generate enough income to carry you through the year. Working continuously throughout the year (pulling back a little/completely approaching exam time) might also free up some time during the summer to carry out research/clinical electives at home or abroad.0
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MOD NOTE
Guys, I've deleted the posts about being off topic.
The idea of this forum is to help one another out through sharing resources/selling notes/organising study groups/whatever else comes to mind.
If you're going to be antagonistic, be so elsewhere.
Enforced leave for those who choose otherwise.0 -
Aside from the great toss-up as to which course to actually put down as a first choice, financing is the biggest stress factor and will be the biggest challenge for anyone undertaking these courses. I believe that the Colleges and the Department of Health/Department of Education have an obligation to ensure that students have access to financing, otherwise these courses will just be for those that can afford to pay for them through personal resources. This is not a fair or equitable medical education system as committed to by the Minister for Education; it is also in the interests of the Colleges to engage with the banks to put pressure on them to come up with financing packages that enable students to complete their studies without the (sometimes unmanageable) stress of worrying about where rent is going to come from.
Everyone should contact their local TD asking them to raise the issue of financing for GEM programmes with the Minister for Health and the Minister for Education; there are public interest directors on the Boards of all banks. Furthermore, the State is already investing 40,000 per person per GEM course. This is a significant investment and it is not in the State's interest for students on GEM programmes to have to drop out due to a lack of funds.
Students and applicants have to put pressure on both the Admissions Offices and on politicians so that they will lobby and engage with banks on this issue. It is the only way this situation will improve.0 -
You're absolutely right! Finance is my biggest concern. I would hate to have to drop out because I can't afford to continue with paying massive rent & not having enough time to work.
You're right about contacting politicians. Tbh I can't imagine they'll do much for us. We're a tiny tiny % of the population and to give us more assistance getting larger loans would be a kick in the teeth for the larger % of the population who are looking for extensions on loans. We can deffo try & it is their obligation to listen to their elective but just don't get your hopes up- they're only going to help us if they think it will make them look good! I know I shouldn't be so cynical but I've had a bad year because of governments bureaucracy.
I will definitely try though and hope I'm proved wrong!0 -
If enough people are contacting their TDs and, in turn, those TDs are contacting their Ministers, then they will look into it (Ministers always look into issues raised directly by TDs). The issue was raised in Parliamentary Questions there last year, so TDs are alive to the situation, as is the Minister for Education.
The Fottrell Report is the basis for the GEM programme and is the basis for all the Government's decisions regarding medical education. The Government has also given a recent undertaking to look into ways to encourage Irish medical students to remain in Ireland (as opposed to studying elsewhere or emigrating upon qualification).
Loans for education are an investment - both for the student and for society; this is particularly true with regard to medical education in light of the fact that we are about 400 students per year short of our target and the fact that we are losing our junior doctors to other jurisdictions.
GEMs also need to put pressure on the individual colleges to lobby the banks regarding financing. They all pride themselves on providing 100% support to their students, but this is all for nothing if those students are caving under financial pressure.
The situation will not improve unless GEMs are collective in their action and have the support of their TDs.0 -
I have also been planning to visit some TDs and raise this.
I also see other crazy aspects of this: if I was unemployed I would be better off than doing GEM. If I was on the dole, I would lose it if I went back to college. This is perverse.
And, it's perverse that if I took out a loan to start a business, I could claim the interest as a business expense, but that if I take out a loan to study GEM I can't claim a penny of the interest as an expense. There should be some way to charge the loan and/or interest against income tax over several years after graduating.
It is also perverse that the rationale for the high fees is that as graduates we all had the benefit of free fees for our first degree. This is not true for me. I graduated in the last year before free fees and had to borrow at a full commercial loan rate to fund my degree, even with a full grant, plus long stints of working 80 hour weeks.
Finally, at the UL open day last November, they made a point of telling us the colleges were meeting the Dept. of Health to address the funding issue and they hoped something would happen. I certainly haven't heard a peep since then.
What they could do is maintain or even raise the income of interns, guarantee us overtime and reasonable hours, then the banks would be more willing to support us.
I agree: visit your local TDs and raise the issue. GO in well prepared and cite the Fottrell report and make specific proposals and questions, perhaps some of the ones I mention above.0 -
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Folk should also contact the IMO (contact details on their website) and the IUMC (Irish Universities and Medical Schools Consortium: http://www.ucc.ie/iumc/) to query what action they are taking. I read somewhere that there is a campaign to get the Minister for Education to re-classify GEM as a Level 9 course, thereby doing away with the need to pay fees (they will be covered by the HEA in full). I'm not sure how likely this is though, to be honest. I more realistic possibility would be for the Med Schools to come up with financing packages themselves, perhaps in conjunction with the banks or through their own resources.0
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Ok, do you want to get angry? Here are the HSE payscales for all jobs:
http://www.lenus.ie/hse/bitstream/10147/97566/1/DOHC_salary_scales_jan10.pdf
An intern doctor earns 30K (not 33K as on this sheet as it was reduced further) - that's less than the starting salary of the following:- Occupational therapist
- pharmaceutical technician
- phlebotomist
- physicist (ironic, as I am one)
- physio
- play therapist (basic)
- radiographer
- social worker
- social care worker
- vascular technician
- craftsman
- catering supervisor
- chef (journeyman)
- workshop instructor
- VOCATIONAL TRAINEE IN DENTISTRY
- staff nurse
- dental hygienist
- audiologist
- biochemist
- chiropodist
- and only 3K more than cleaners and garden labourers!
An intern earned 35K in 2008.
An advanced nurse practitioner starts on 56K - we're on the wrong track doing medicine!0 -
The above salary quoted is exactly as stated - an interns salary i.e. an entry salary....Doctors, like many health care professionals, are on a sliding salary scale and salaries increase with yearly during training years (interestingly, the new Croke Park II deal is looking to push these increases out to 18mth periods). This does not include additional income from call nor indeed overtime (another issue entirely and deserving of its own thread really).
Of course, everything suggested above with regards contacting local TD's and Medical School's about student funding should be followed up with vigor. Not to dwell on the negative but these avenues have been tested extensively before with little to no return so having a some form of financial contingency plan is probably the way to go.
Getting back to the theme of this thread though......I think anyone planning on starting med school in September, and availing of the new loan facilities requiring immediate repayments (and with limited self funding available), needs to seriously consider part-time work over the next couple of years. There are many hidden expenses throughout medical school from books and supplies to petrol or travel expenses. Not all Colleges provide free student accomodation while on clinical rotations for example - this can be a source of great expense.
The fact that some in previous years who availed of the full 25K/yr loan packages found it difficult to make it to the end of each academic year with enough funds to make it through the summer highlights the realities of undertaking the newer greatly reduced loan packages. Bear in mind there were no interest repayments required during studying years.
Getting and maintaining part-time work during med school is a challenge in itself. It's worth investing time this summer trying to identify current/previous employers who would be willing to be flexible with hours to cater for class, study, and exam schedules that can vary considerably on a month to month, or even week to week, basis.0 -
The above salary quoted is exactly as stated - an interns salary i.e. an entry salary....Doctors, like many health care professionals, are on a sliding salary scale and salaries increase with yearly during training years (interestingly, the new Croke Park II deal is looking to push these increases out to 18mth periods). This does not include additional income from call nor indeed overtime (another issue entirely and deserving of its own thread really).
Of course, everything suggested above with regards contacting local TD's and Medical School's about student funding should be followed up with vigor. Not to dwell on the negative but these avenues have been tested extensively before with little to no return so having a some form of financial contingency plan is probably the way to go.
Getting back to the theme of this thread though......I think anyone planning on starting med school in September, and availing of the new loan facilities requiring immediate repayments (and with limited self funding available), needs to seriously consider part-time work over the next couple of years. There are many hidden expenses throughout medical school from books and supplies to petrol or travel expenses. Not all Colleges provide free student accomodation while on clinical rotations for example - this can be a source of great expense.
The fact that some in previous years who availed of the full 25K/yr loan packages found it difficult to make it to the end of each academic year with enough funds to make it through the summer highlights the realities of undertaking the newer greatly reduced loan packages. Bear in mind there were no interest repayments required during studying years.
I wasn't saying there aren't progressions, I specifically mentioned the starting salaries. I hadn't see that point about increments in Croke Park 2, very worrying. And we certainly can't bank on overtime any more, a whole other matter indeed.
What is this about paying interest during study? Neither UB nor BOI have made any indication of this to me - where is this coming from? The only bank I know of with this is the crappy AIB package which I can't imagine anyone would want or even get (I posted in detail about this the other day).
I agree about the rest of your post though. I was awake all night last night stressing about funding. It's very frightening.0 -
Although very obvious, I was highlighting the ''starting salary'' point more so for the benefit of other readers/posters who may not be aware of the incremental structure of salaries for medics.
I should have been more clear in my post above that I was referring to the AIB package when discussing loan interest repayments - sorry about that! I haven't any personal experience with the UB or BOI packages so I can't comment on those.
The terms of the new loans, however, are very hard to get away from. I'm still not sure of anywhere offering living expenses...? Without significant personal funding the ability to self-fund in GEM looks very difficult indeed.....hence why I feel this thread is so important.0 -
The BoI loan package expressly states there there will be a moratorium on repayments over the four years. The AIB loan package is a bit of a joke really - I'm not really sure who they think their conditions will apply to. UB only lends to UL at the moment, but their package is probably one of the best on the market.
Unless folk have a spare €40k + floating around somewhere, there is no getting around the fact that work will be required but a robust contingency plan will have to be in place before starting. The last thing anyone needs after all this work is to cave under the pressure of worrying about finances.
It's unbelievable that the US students who are on GEM programmes here get full funding for their fees and living expenses from the US Government and yet Irish students don't get a bean (well, maybe a half a bean in the form of the HEA grant).
The Med Schools have to start taking responsibility for coming up with a solution to this issue - it is not in their interests for students to have to drop out, fail exams or not be able to take up their offer due to finances. Considering the banks stand to make in excess of €30 k per GEM student over the lifetime of these loans, you would think they would be failing over each other to lend.0 -
The banks aren't jumping to lend as a Doctors salary is simply no longer seen as a sure option to backing up these loans. The new consultant salaries and ever decreasing NCHD salary packages are clear signs that these are no longer sound investment options. The idea of GP as a shorter route to financial stability is also gone.....the overheads and fees involved mean it is no longer has the income potential that it has done in the past.
The ''half a bean'' from the Gov in the form of the HEA grant is also unlikely to improve imo. The reason behind that is obvious from a national point of view.
I'm no fan of negativity on these threads but the reality is that the Medical Schools are highly unlikely to influence change with regard to living expenses this coming year - the majority are out to balance their own books and that's about it. The reality of having to self-fund living costs for four years stands to change the dynamic of doing GEM altogether. The amount of part-time work required to cover yourself year on year would be considerable to say the least. Perhaps this forum should really serve as a place to bounce idea's as to how to go about making this possible.0 -
I think one of the consequences will be less fresh graduates in GEM courses - people will want to work for a few years after graduating, save at least half of the living costs (at least that's what I'm doing). Or they might go to the UK, especially those with degrees in medical sciences.
Someone wrote here somewhere that the deans of the medical schools wanted to get together and discuss this situation, but it was a while ago and not a peep since.0 -
It is definitely possible to work part-time in GEM1 in UCD... that's I can vouch for so far. You just need to be good with your time and also have a somewhat flexible job. Money is definitely important but again you can be good with that too. I wouldn't let the thoughts of working during the course dissuade you from doing it at all... if its what you want to do you'll regret it. I believe there are interest free overdraft facilities and small interest free loans for students if you get into trouble but it is definitely doable.0
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I completely agree that it is possible to work during the course.....I would go further and say it's possible to work in all of the 4 years. As Roger_that has also mentioned flexibility with your employer is the key. Working during exam periods is obviously pushing things to/past the limits of what can be done and study breaks from the job need to be considered.0
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